Densho Digital Archive - Yoshio Matsumoto Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: Today is Tuesday, June 16, 2009. We're in Minneapolis, Minnesota. On camera is Dana Hoshide, and I'm the interviewer, Tom Ikeda. And so, Yo, let's start off with the very beginning. Can you tell me when you were born?

YM: I was born July 12, 1921.

TI: And where were you born?

YM: In San Diego, California.

TI: And was that like a medical facility, like a hospital you were born in?

YM: No. I believe myself and my sisters and brothers were born at home. My mother used a midwife.

TI: And whereabouts in San Diego were you born?

YM: Well, right in the city. Right in...

TI: Okay, and what was the given name when you were born? What was the name given to you?

YM: Yoshio Matsumoto.

TI: So did you have a middle name at that point?

YM: No, I wasn't given a middle name.

TI: Okay, good. You mentioned siblings. So let's first talk about your siblings.

YM: I have an older sister, Tamiko, and then after me comes Michiko, and the youngest is Kazuo.

TI: And what was the age difference between...

YM: My sister was born, I believe, in 1919, she's about two years older than me. Michiko was born, I believe, about 1928 or so, and Kazuo was born in, I'd say, about 1932.

TI: Okay, I'm just noting, so there's quite a bit of age difference between you and Michiko. Do you know why?

YM: No, I don't.

TI: So let's, let me first ask about your father. Can you tell me your father's name and where he was from?

YM: My father's name is Ryoichi Matsumoto. And I believe he is from Hiroshima. I'm not sure, 'cause I never discussed that with him, unfortunately. He came to the United States as a twenty year old in 1906, arriving in San Francisco aboard a Japanese steamer the day after the Great San Francisco Earthquake. So I think they, the disembarkation was in Oakland, probably. My mother probably came over -- my dad went back to Japan and married my mother. I don't know exactly when.

TI: Before we go there, I'm curious. So do you know why your father came to Japan?

YM: Came to the United States.

TI: Or came to the United States, I'm sorry, yes.

YM: I don't know whether it's true, but I heard somewhere that he was probably avoiding the military. In 1906, Japan was at war with Russia. And I don't know whether he came over to avoid being drafted, or whether he came over for education or whatever.

TI: Do you know if he had, if he had brothers or sisters, your father?

YM: No. He had a stepsister. My dad's father, I understand, died when he was an infant, and his mother remarried. And this person had a daughter. And I met her once, some time in 1966, I think it was. She was an older woman by that time. But that's about all I know. I remember my dad used to send money to her so she could build a home. And that's about all I know about her. I haven't kept in touch with her since I met her in 1966.

TI: Okay. So your father came about 1906, he was twenty. On that first trip over, do you know what he did, what kind of work he did or where he was?

YM: I have no idea. I kind of expect he... I think he worked as a houseboy, possibly he worked on the farm. And I'm not sure exactly what he did.

TI: Okay, and then you said he then returned to Japan.

YM: I think he returned to Japan probably, I would guess, around 1915 or 1916 or whatever. The reason I say that is my sister was born in 1919, and I assume she was born shortly after they got married.

TI: So tell me a little bit about your mother. What was her name and where was she from?

YM: Well, she was born in Hiroshima. Not in the city Hiroshima but in one of the small towns outside of Hiroshima called Bingo Saijo. And it's a country town, they had a farm there. And she had two brothers, an older brother and a younger brother. And she went to, I think after high school, she went to Tokyo and attended a school of art or something like that. Her younger brother left home and went to Tokyo and attended Todai, Tokyo University, and got his medical degree there. And the younger, the older brother stayed with the mother on the farm.

TI: And again, her name, and maiden name was?

YM: Yabuki.

TI: So Yoshi Yabuki?

YM: Yoshi Yabuki, yeah.

TI: Good.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: So when they came back to the United States, your father and mother, do you know where they settled?

YM: I assume they settled in San Diego. That's where our family lived most of the time. And my dad had a grocery store in San Diego. And we lived across the street from the grocery store.

TI: So you're my first interview where someone grew up in San Diego. So you're going to have to describe a little bit more to me about San Diego in terms of, was this like in the Japanese part of town?

YM: Yeah. We were living -- in San Diego, we didn't live in a Japanese community like in San Francisco or Los Angeles, we were kind of spread out. But we were sort of, I would say, confined to the part of town where we were allowed to live, you know. I don't know whether you realize, but in those days, the Japanese were not welcome to live in better white neighborhoods. So you might say we lived across the track, but it wasn't that bad, you know. But we lived in San Diego, not too far from the city center, and we lived, the house was just across the street from the grocery store, so it was very convenient.

TI: And so when you say, or tell me, describe the neighbors. Like when you say they weren't all Japanese, it sounds like more of a mixed neighborhood?

YM: Well, it was mainly a Spanish neighborhood, I think. I was only four or five years old. We moved out of there when I was about five years old. But it was essentially a Spanish-speaking neighborhood, I think, because my dad learned to speak some Spanish to deal with his customers. And my mother learned to do some cooking, prepare Spanish foods, which I loved very much. And anyway, it was a great store. I remember we used to go there as kids, we'd go and get candy out of the store and all that sort of stuff. And anyway, I went to, while I was there, I attended the kindergarten. And about that time, though, the lease that my dad had on that store was terminated. I don't know why, but the store was owned by some guy. I don't know what happened, but I remember he used to come over to the house quite frequently and my mother would give him coffee. He had this funny habit of taking coffee and pouring it into the saucer, I guess to let it cool or something. But as a little kid, I thought, "Hey, that's kind of interesting." [Laughs]

TI: And then he would kind of lift it up and --

YM: Then he would drink from the saucer. He was a Jewish guy. Maybe that's the way they drink coffee, I don't know. Maybe just to cool the coffee. Anyway, my dad lost the lease on the store, so then we had to move to another location where he set up another business, grocery store. And so then I relocated to another grade school.

TI: And describe this second neighborhood. What was this other neighborhood like? Was it similar?

YM: Well, it was not too far from our first home, but it was, I think, more of a mixed neighborhood. I think there were more white people there. It was, we rented a home there, too. Anyway, I remember going, there was a neighborhood house nearby that I used to go to to play with the kids and so forth. And I went to an elementary school there called Logan, Logan Elementary. And I was in first or second grade there, I believe, I don't remember. Anyway, we were there for I don't know how many years. I think my sister, younger sister Michi might have been born there, I'm not sure. But anyway, then after that, my dad, his business didn't go too well, so he opened a fruit and vegetable business, store, in another location.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: Okay, before we go there, on this, sort of this second neighborhood you grew up, do you recall who your friends were? I mean, not necessarily names, but I'm just curious if there were very many Japanese there.

YM: There weren't many Japanese there, no. I don't remember who my friends were, but as I recall, it was mainly, maybe kind of a mixed neighborhood with white and maybe some Spanish and so forth.

TI: And so clientele for your dad's stores, the first two stores, did he stock like Japanese food there?

YM: No, no.

TI: So it was more, the first one was maybe more Hispanic or Spanish, Mexican kind of food?

YM: Probably, probably.

TI: Okay, so we're talking about the third one, now he goes to a fruit and vegetable stand?

YM: Yeah, then he opened another store. It wasn't a grocery store, it was a fruit and vegetable store, in another location. And I can't kind of relate where we lived with that store, but eventually we moved to another location, another home. And it was in a mixed neighborhood, and we had neighbors that were blacks, Italians, Greeks, Jews. And then right next door to us was a white family who were contractors. They were road builders, and so they had a big yard in the back where they had these horses. In those days, they didn't have motorized road building equipment, it was all horse-drawn equipment for graders and hauling dirt and so forth. And so I used to, in the backyard, go and look at the horses. They were really mules, not horses. Anyway, they were whites, and I think it was mainly a white neighborhood where the direct neighbors were Jewish, Greeks and so forth.

TI: And so in the neighborhood, were there ever any events where the families would get together and do things together?

YM: No. We more or less socialized with other Japanese. They weren't close by, but we'd meet them at church or we'd visit each other's homes.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: So tell me about that in terms of, like, Japanese community events. Were there picnics for the Japanese community?

YM: Oh, yes. Well, you know, the Japanese, they have associations called kenjinkai, you've probably heard of those. And Hiroshima-ken, Wakayama-ken and all these different kens would have social events. They'd go out on picnics together. So we had those and we'd be invited to other kens besides our own because we had friends in other kens. So that was mainly our social events, main social events.

TI: So in San Diego, do you recall where those events happened, these picnics?

YM: Well, usually out at the beach, and Coronado, or could be out at the country somewhere.

TI: And try to describe to me some of these events. What were they like? Like about how many people, what would happen?

YM: Well, they'd always have events for the children, you know, running events. And a lot of different games and so forth, a lot of food, Japanese food. Well, they were pretty fun events. [Laughs]

TI: And about how many people would you say were there?

YM: Well, it'd be thirty or forty people, I suppose, including the kids.

TI: And then you mentioned the church, too. So the church you went to was mostly Japanese?

YM: Yes. We belonged to the First Japanese Congregational Church. The other church in San Diego was the Buddhist church. And so we attended Sunday school on Sundays, and my folks would attend this regular church service on Sundays.

TI: And how about Japanese language school?

YM: Yes, we had a Japanese language school at church taught by the minister. And they would pick us up at our regular, after our regular school, the bus would come around, the church bus would pick us up and take us to church, and there we'd spend an hour or two learning Japanese. I didn't stay with that very long for some reason, I don't know whether it was because I wasn't a good student or my parents didn't want to pay the tuition or whatever. But I ended up getting my Japanese from my mother at home. And it would usually be on a Saturday morning, and Saturday's a bad time for us kids because we always liked to go out and play. So we weren't very good students -- I wasn't a very good student. I didn't learn Japanese very well.

TI: So even though you were the eldest son, you...

YM: Yeah.

TI: So that's interesting. Your mother taught you Japanese. So it was kind of like, did she have almost like a formal class where she had chairs for each of you and she would...

YM: No, we just sat around the dining room table and they'd have books. There were different grades of books, and we'd read those and try to learn how to write Japanese. Not kanji so much, but mainly katakana or hiragana. Anyway, I regret that I didn't apply myself a little bit more diligently.

TI: And so describe your mother. What kind of personality...

YM: Well, my mother was a strong person. I think she pretty much held the family together. My dad was busy at work all the time, and he was a very gentle person, never scolded me or anything like that. And my mother was more the disciplinarian in the family. Anyway, she kept after us to do the chores around the house or whatever.

TI: And when the Isseis were able to socialize, I know they worked hard, but what would your mother and father do for social things?

YM: They visited other friends a lot, and we'd go along with them. They'd come to our house or we'd go to their house. And I think that was mainly what we did.

TI: So describe one of those outings where you would go to one of their friends' house. I mean, what would the kids do, what would the parents do?

YM: Well, the parents, of course, would be talking. The kids would usually play with each others' toys. I remember one friend had a good electric train set, so we'd always play with that. We were young kids, so we didn't get to the point where we were playing more grownup things. We did, as we got older, then we would play baseball, sandlot baseball, softball, football, and that sort of thing.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: Okay, let's go to school. So you mentioned Logan Elementary School earlier. What are some other schools that you attended?

YM: Which school?

TI: Yeah, what other schools did you attend?

YM: The first school I went to kindergarten was Lincoln Elementary. And then the second school after we moved was Logan, and the third place was Stockton Elementary. And from Stockton Elementary, we went on to Memorial junior high school, and then from there we went to San Diego High School.

TI: Now if people were to describe you as a student, how would they describe you?

YM: Mediocre. [Laughs]

TI: So were there certain classes that you enjoyed more like math or history?

YM: Yeah, I think math probably.

TI: And how about like extracurricular activities? Sports, hobbies or clubs at school?

YM: Well, in high school, I was in the ROTC. And we had a rifle club, and I didn't go out for sports other than that in high school. At church we had a Boy Scout troop, Troop 52, and we would do a lot of activities there and meet once a week, I think it was, at church, and have meetings. And then we'd go camping quite a bit, and hiking and so forth. Yeah, we had a good time.

TI: And so when you think back to those days, what are some of your fondest memories? You mentioned the hiking, the camping, what are some other fond memories that you have growing up in San Diego?

YM: Well, we used to go out fishing, surf fishing or deep sea fishing. We used to go out hunting. A friend and I, another friend and I would go out rabbit hunting, and that's about it, I guess. Horseback riding maybe.

TI: And so to go hunting, your family had guns?

YM: I was allowed to buy a .22. And so we'd go out rabbit hunting in the morning.

TI: And how did you learn how to handle a gun?

YM: Oh, I don't know. You just learn. It's not very difficult to learn to shoot. You have to be very careful. I remember once, I was doing something with my .22 rifle in my bedroom and I accidentally had a cartridge in there and it went off. And my sister, younger sister Michi was standing right here, and fortunately, I didn't hit her with it. The bullet struck the wall above her, you know. That was kind of a close call.

TI: Boy, did... I'm wondering what your parents did when that happened, or did they ever find out?

YM: I don't think they ever found out.

TI: That must have been pretty scary for you to just think about.

YM: Yeah, it was.

TI: You mentioned deep sea fishing. How would you go out? Was it like a friend's boat?

YM: Well, you could charter. You'd go out on one of these charter boats, and it takes you out beyond Point Loma, and there'd be a barge sitting there sometimes. You'd get off on the barge and they have bait and so forth, bait tank, and you just fish along with about a dozen other guys. It was fun.

TI: Now, in San Diego, as an example, up in the Northwest, there were certain things the Isseis did in Seattle like salmon fishing, they would do that a lot together. They'd go up in the mountains and look for matsutake mushrooms. In San Diego, were there similar type of things that the Isseis liked to do? Another example would be, a lot of the Isseis would go to Mount Rainier for big picnics. And I'm just curious, I'm trying to get a local flavor of San Diego, if there's some things that if you thought about the Isseis and the Niseis, what are some things that they...

YM: We didn't have matsutake, we didn't have those places. We didn't have the salmons, things like that, but we did catch, oh, small fish. A lot of mackerel. But other than that, I don't recall. We used to go to the farm, a lot of our friends were farmers. We used to spend a lot of time visiting the farms and coming back with a lot of farm vegetables. Sometimes we'd get together during New Year's to make mochi, you know, they'd have a big fire going outside to steam the rice and the men would pound the rice and make mochi. I remember those days.

TI: Okay, good.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: So what year did you graduate from high school?

YM: 1939.

TI: Okay, 1939. And after you graduated from high school, what did you do?

YM: Then I went to San Diego State to take pre-engineering.

TI: And why did you go pre-engineering? You mentioned earlier that, you said you were...

YM: Well, I just took engineering because all my friends were going in engineering. I had no idea what engineering was all about, but it was just something to take. Anyway, I'm glad I did.

TI: Going back, you said your friends were taking engineering, too. At that point, who were your friends? Were they Caucasian, were they Japanese?

YM: Mainly Japanese, Niseis.

TI: So I'm curious. A lot of Niseis, before the war, they would graduate with these college degrees like engineering, but sometimes it'd be hard for them to get a job.

YM: Oh, yes.

TI: Was that the same in San Diego?

YM: Oh, yes, yes. I think it was sort of a given that you wouldn't be able to get a job in engineering. You might go to medical school or dental school and be able to become a doctor or dentist, but engineering, those jobs were not available at that time.

TI: So in general, if a Japanese got an engineering degree before the war, what kind of work would they do?

YM: Well, you'd come back home and work in a store, fruit stand, or work in the farm or something like that. I remember up in Seattle, one of the well-known engineers called Minoru Yamasaki, I understand he had to go to Alaska to the canneries, 'cause he couldn't get a job as an architect.

TI: Yeah, there are quite a few stories that I've heard about getting engineering degrees and then working in Seattle like at the Pike Place Market as a peddler of some type. And so I'm curious, so why would a Nisei go into engineering knowing that there weren't that many job opportunities?

YM: It's just that our parents wanted us to go to college and get a college education. Maybe they were more far-sighted then we thought at the time. Anyway, it was a good thing, as it turned out.

TI: Okay, so you choose pre-engineering at San Diego State, and then what happened after that?

YM: Then I transferred to UC Berkeley, and I went there in 1941, fall of 1941. And, of course, that was the fateful year war broke out in, later, December of that year. And I came home for Christmas vacation and I think my folks insisted I go back to school for the spring semester.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: So let's go back to December 7, 1941. Do you recall that date and what happened that day?

YM: Yes. I was at the Japanese Student Club. We all lived at a Japanese Student Club in Berkeley. And I came downstairs to the living room and the radio was on and the guys were standing around listening to the announcement of the attack on Pearl Harbor. That's when we first found out about it. Of course, it was a shock, and we felt, in a way, shame because we were Japanese. And so I know I felt, walking down the street to class, I just felt that everyone was looking at me, looking at me as an enemy, I suppose. But when I went home for Christmas that year, I discovered that one of my friends who was working on a tuna boat, he was a radio operator, they had taken the entire crew and put 'em in jail, so I went to visit him in jail. We went, some of our friends went downtown to go to a restaurant and they refused us service at the restaurant. Anyway, things were pretty tense in those days.

TI: Going back to the Japanese Student Club, do you recall any discussions amongst your college classmates about what was going to happen or what should be done?

YM: I don't think any of us knew what was going to happen. We were pretty much on edge. It wasn't until February 19th, I think, when the executive order came out, that we knew that there was gonna be evacuation. Anyway, most of the guys went home and a few of us stayed behind.

TI: And when you came back to San Diego for that Christmas break, do you recall having any discussions with your parents about what might happen? You mentioned earlier that they wanted you to go back to school. You talk about kind of the uncertainty, and how many of the classmates were just going home and not going to school.

YM: I don't recall our conversation at that time. I'm sure they all, both my parents were kind of in a quandary as to what to do. I just knew that I should try to find a way to continue my education.

TI: Do you recall how your father's business was impacted by the war?

YM: Yeah. I think the business... as I remember, the business that he had didn't do very well. And I think he ended up working for another, a friend's market. That's about all I recall. He went to work for someone else.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: So going back to Berkeley, on campus, so in 1942, when you returned to campus, what was the mood like on campus?

YM: Well, I think among the Japanese, the Niseis, I think we were still quite uncertain as to how long we were gonna be able to continue our studies. We weren't mistreated by the other students or anyone else, as far as that goes. You know, typical young kids, we were probably optimistic and went about our studies. Anyway...

TI: And then you mentioned how Executive Order 9066, President Roosevelt signed that. And so eventually you know that you're gonna be removed from the Bay Area to someplace else. What did you think about that?

YM: Well, there's not much you could do about it. We were told to be ready to move to Tanforan, and we went out and bought certain things to take with us. We just gathered at one place one day and they picked us up by bus and took us to Tanforan.

TI: Now, how did you figure this all out? 'Cause here you're like a freshman at Berkeley?

YM: No, I was a junior.

TI: A junior, that's right, you went to San Diego State. So you're a junior, you're away from the family, and how did you figure out what to buy and what to bring, all those things?

YM: Well, I don't know. I remember buying an electric razor, that's about it. I don't know what else I bought. I suppose I bought some clothes, you know, suitcase, things like that.

TI: And during this time when you're at Berkeley, as you prepare to leave, did you do anything in terms of getting placed at another college?

YM: We were writing different colleges, I recall, to see if we could get acceptance. And it was surprising to me that the government had copies of all those letters that we wrote. And later, when we were able to access those files through the Freedom of Information Act, we got a whole bunch of stuff. And included in that were letters that I'd written.

TI: Oh, that's interesting. So while you were at Berkeley writing these letters to sort of transfer, they ended up in your file.

YM: Uh-huh.

TI: Government file.

YM: Yeah, I don't know how they got a hold of 'em.

TI: And so what's your sense? How do you think the government got all those?

YM: I have no idea. Probably the colleges turned them in or something like that. There were a number of colleges that were not accepting Japanese at that time. I think the University of Minnesota was one, for the reason that they had Navy V-12 programs and Army specialized training programs going on, and they didn't want to, or maybe the government didn't allow them to take on Japanese students.

TI: Going back to your file, were all the letters there?

YM: Well, there were a few of them. I don't know whether they were all there, but I noticed a few of them there.

TI: Yeah, I'm just wondering if it happened more at the source or more at... I guess you were mailing them, so...

YM: Yeah, I'm mailing them, so it has to be from...

TI: The universities are making copies and sending them.

YM: I think so.

TI: That's interesting.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: So eventually you have to leave. And so for the Berkeley students, where did you guys assemble?

YM: Well, downtown Berkeley, Shattuck Boulevard, I think it was. I think they sent a bus to pick us up.

TI: And then describe, where did they take you?

YM: They took us to the Tanforan racetrack, just south of San Francisco. It's a big shopping center now, Tanforan shopping center. But it was a regular racetrack. They had built a... the infield was all the army barrack type construction there. And, of course, the early ones that went there were housed in horse stalls, they were the unlucky ones. And so there were six of us in our family group, six students, and they housed us in one section of the barrack. It was... it was okay for us young kids. For families, it must have been pretty bad.

TI: Well, so describe, so here you are, a bachelor, now you don't have to go to school, you're now in a camp with hundreds if not thousands of other Japanese Americans and Japanese nationals. So what did you do during that time?

YM: Well, actually, we all had jobs. And I guess we collected, like, twelve dollars a month or something. I worked in the mess hall doing odd jobs in the mess hall. But during the day, we would do things... I had a friend who was, did fencing in college. He was able to bring fencing equipment into camp, the sabers and the masks and the guards and so forth, and so he taught us fencing. And then another fellow, he was a physical ed. major, and he brought along badminton equipment. And at Tanforan, the grandstand had large areas below the grandstand with hardwood floor and everything, and so they set up badminton courts there. So we learned to play badminton. They set up tennis courts outside, so we had a lot of activity going there. It wasn't all bad for the young people like us. They had dances every week, they had, they played pop tunes on the record player and we'd take dates to the dances. That's where I was able to get together with my wife, Alice. I asked her out for a date and that was the beginning of our romance.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: So describe how you met your wife, or how did the two of you get together?

YM: Well, I had met her, as I mentioned, at Berkeley just once. I used to go out with her roommate. And then she was one of the more popular girls on the campus, and when we were in camp, I decided one day, well, maybe I'll ask her if she'll go out with me, and she said sure, she'll go out with me. After that, we went out quite often. Anyway, I had to leave her after a few months because I was accepted at Washington University in St. Louis.

TI: So before we go there, tell me a little bit about her family. Because I think you told me earlier her father was picked up?

YM: Yeah, her father was picked up on December the 7th. Alice had gone to Cal to study at the library in the morning, and when she came back, her father was gone. And she never saw him again after that, 'cause he died before she was ever able to see him again. But he was a newspaper man, he was a publisher and an editor of the Shinsekai, which is the New World Sun, daily Japanese newspaper that was distributed all around the northern part of California. And he had been a prominent citizen there. And he led a group of Japanese businessmen to the, I think it was the 2600th anniversary of the Japanese empire in Tokyo. They had a big celebration there and he led the group there and he was honored by, awarded with, the emperor, some kind of award and allowed to sign some register in the castle which was considered an honor. And then back in San Francisco, he would meet quite often with the consulate people from Japan. As a matter of fact, just before the attack on Pearl Harbor, I think he met with Ambassador Nomura, who then went to Washington, D.C. and then the war broke out while he was there. But anyway, he was then picked up as a "dangerous enemy alien" and put into, I think, some camp up in one of the northern states, I've forgotten where it was. Then after that, he was transferred down to another camp in Crystal City, New Mexico, I think it was. He wasn't released until 1946.

TI: Okay, so northern, maybe like in Missoula, Montana.

YM: Missoula, I think is where it was.

TI: And then New Mexico would be Santa Fe, New Mexico?

YM: Santa Fe, yeah, I think there's a letter that he's written to Alice in that book there from Santa Fe. And then his family, Alice's mother and sisters were able to join him in Santa Fe, I think it was.

TI: Oh, maybe Crystal City.

YM: Maybe it was Crystal City.

TI: Yeah, Crystal City, Texas, would be the family camp.

YM: Uh-huh. And then he was released in 1946, but then by then he was very ill, and he died immediately after he was released. And Alice was on the East Coast, so she wasn't able to go to his funeral.

TI: That must have been difficult on your wife, Alice, for her not to see her father.

YM: Yeah, yeah. She didn't have the money to make, to travel there anyway. So anyway, she was not able to see her dad after that fateful day.

TI: Now, when you left Tanforan to go to Washington University and you left Alice, was there some understanding between the two of you that you were, would get back together later on or anything like that?

YM: Yes, I think so.

TI: And was she in a similar way trying to get to another college also?

YM: Oh, yes. She had applied to another, to try to get to another place. She wasn't able to get out until the following year. I got out sometime in the fall of 1942, and she was able to get out in 1943. And she went to Temple University. First she went to University of... Kansas City University or something like that, and she was there for a few months while I was in St. Louis, so I was able to see her there. But then she discovered that they weren't offering the courses that she needed to graduate in dietetics. So she was able to get into Temple University in Philadelphia.

TI: Good, okay.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: Going back to your, sort of, path, so after a few months in Tanforan, you were able to go to Washington University. That's pretty fast. A lot of Niseis, it took a long time for them to get accepted to another college. And here after a few months... so you didn't have to go to Topaz, you went directly from Tanforan.

YM: That's right.

TI: What were some of the reasons why you think you were accepted so quickly?

YM: I have no idea except that Gary, in his book, says that there were quite a few students that were selected, I guess, because of their academic record or something. And when I got to Washington University, there were about thirty other Niseis there. And I think a number of them were accepted in East Coast universities.

TI: And going back to Washington University, you mentioned about thirty Niseis. Do you recall from what other colleges they were coming from? You came from Berkeley, were there other colleges that you could recall?

YM: You know, I didn't, I didn't socialize too much with all of the thirty, I just knew the ones who were at Cal. I would say maybe ten or so of those were Cal, I knew them at Cal. So the others, I didn't know anyhow.

TI: And in terms of payment, how was that handled? Because Berkeley is a public institution and Washington University, you'd be out of state. How would that...

YM: It's a private university, yeah. Well, I'm not certain. I remember my parents sent me some money. I had some money in my bank account, 'cause I used to work while I was in high school and my mother used to make me put all my money in the bank. So I had those funds, that was sent to me. I don't know how the others paid for their tuition and things. I believe the army provided us with transportation from camp to the colleges. But other than that, I don't remember exactly how the others were able to... well, tuition was not as expensive as it was today. I think it was like a hundred or two hundred dollars a semester or something like that.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: Okay, so Yo, we're going to start the second hour of the interview. And we had covered your, kind of, more early life in San Diego, going to Berkeley, Tanforan, and now we're at Washington University. You mentioned how you were there with about thirty other Niseis, ten from Berkeley. So I'm curious, what was St. Louis like for you?

YM: Well, I was, of course, being from California, we had our first experience with snow. And of course, the weather was, the summer is real hot and humid being in the valley there, Missouri valley. But people were very nice and we got along well. In California we rarely socialized with Caucasians, but there they greeted us and invited us to their homes, and we used to go dancing with them, things like that. Very friendly.

TI: Now, during this time, did the war ever come up in terms of the war with Japan and the fact that you were Japanese American?

YM: No. We might have discussed it, but it was nothing serious. I took a job as a houseboy shortly after I was living there. I lived in the dormitory for a while, but I think maybe, maybe the finances got a little tight or something. Anyway, I looked for a job and got a job as a houseboy at a home about a block away from the university. And she was a writer, she was divorced, she had kids and the grandmother was living there. My job was to wash the dishes in the evening, do the housework on the weekends and mow the grass and so forth. In return for which I got a nice room and fed, you know. Very convenient. They liked me and I liked them. As a matter of fact, they would always invite me to sit at dinner with them, you know. Whenever they had company, I would be invited to join the company dinner and so forth. I was treated very well.

TI: I'm curious, this family, did you ever stay in touch with them, like, after the war?

YM: For a very short while. And I don't know what happened, one of the sons went to the Coast Guard Academy, the daughter, they had one daughter that went to the school at, a women's college at Harvard, I forgot the name of the place. And the youngest son was kind of a different one. He spent a lot of time living with the Indians down in... I don't know where it was in Arizona or New Mexico anyway. He liked to spend his, a lot of time down there. Anyway, she was very good to me.

TI: So I'm curious, St. Louis, you're now more in the South, too. Did you notice the race relationships between whites and blacks when you were in the South?

YM: Never, I never noticed that, no. Not even when I was taking basic training in Florida. We didn't have much contact with the black community, and so we didn't see anything that said "whites only" or "blacks only" or whatever. We knew that the blacks lived in very poor conditions down there, that's about all.

TI: Now, at Washington University, were there blacks attending the university?

YM: I don't remember any. Being wartime, there's probably not too many, not as many as there normally would be. It was a nice school, we had a good time there.

TI: And how would you compare the education level between Berkeley and Washington University? You took courses at Berkeley and then you would take, I guess, more advanced courses at Washington University. How was that?

YM: I don't know. It's kind of hard to compare, 'cause you didn't take the same courses. It wasn't particularly difficult. Not much different from Berkeley, I don't think. It was a very good school, good instructors.

TI: And so this is during the war. How about just in terms of the number of men on campus? Does that drop off because a lot of them went to the war effort, or was it about, still the same?

YM: Well, I think there were fewer men during the war. I think... I didn't notice it so much. There were, we had men in our classes. One thing I did notice, though, is that there were a lot of Jewish guys there. As a matter of fact, it was the first time I was introduced to Jewish food. We'd go out on some project like doing a project at the powerhouse overnight, and they'd give me a lot of their sandwiches and things. Real good corned beef sandwiches, first time I ever had that sort of stuff. But no, I think there were fewer men. And, of course, there were no sports going on at the time, either. No football or basketball or anything like that.

TI: Any other memories of St. Louis or Washington University?

YM: No... I think we stayed pretty much on campus.

TI: How about things, I mean, you... I'm just curious about, like interracial dating. Was that ever happening amongst the Nisei men on campus like at Washington University?

YM: Yeah. I don't know about the others, but I dated some hakujin gals.

TI: And how was that viewed in St. Louis?

YM: No one seemed to notice. I think they were more liberal in that respect than the West Coast.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: And how was it for dating Caucasians from St. Louis? Was that, were they about the same as the West Coast, or did you see a difference in terms of culture or their views?

YM: Well, we didn't have much interaction with Caucasians on the West Coast. I had a Caucasian friend that I used to do things with, but he was the only one. So it's kind of hard to compare between the West Coast and the Midwest. But they were very nice to us, you know. Gives you a little different perspective after living on the West Coast, you know, to have that experience.

TI: Well, that's why I'm curious. So it seemed like, in terms of race issues dealing with Japanese Americans, it was more... what's the right word? Loose or easier for Japanese Americans in places like St. Louis than it was on the West Coast, like San Diego.

YM: Oh, definitely. Definitely, yes, it's easier. We had the son of... his name was Obata, he was the professor of art at the University of California, Berkeley. And his son, he had two sons, and one of the sons, Kimio, is the one that taught us how to fence while we were in camp. The younger one, Gyo was at the university. Well, the whole family moved to St. Louis, they were living there. And Gyo attended the school of architecture at Washington University. And he has a firm called HOK, Hellmuth, Obata + Kassabaum, which is, for a while it was the largest architectural firm in the United States. They built one, their sports division built most of the big stadiums, Pac Bell and Camden Park and all these baseball and football stadiums. And he did a lot of very good work. Dallas-Fort Worth Airport... biggest architectural firm in the world, I think.

TI: So he was a classmate of yours at Washington University?

YM: He was about a year younger than me, so I didn't have much to do with him, although he invited us over to his home for dinner. Anyway, he was very successful. Another fellow, George Matsumoto, you'll see his picture in there, he was an architect, too, and he did very well. He did some work while he was a professor at North Carolina State and then he became a professor at University of California Berkeley and he had his own practice in San Francisco. I see him quite often, we're very good friends.

TI: So this is interesting. So when you think of these individuals who went to Washington University who then became very successful, so I'm thinking, well, so either there's something special about Washington University, or there was something very special about the group that went to Washington University. Which one do you think? Was it very, kind of, selected...

YM: Well, I think it's the group. Gary claims that the ones that went out early, they selected the very best students. That's what he claims, although I don't consider myself in that class. But they were very good students. One of the other... the gal in there that we graduated from, she, I didn't know her at Washington University, her name was Gladys Ishida at that time. And then I met her here, Gladys Stone, she had married a professor of social studies. And she herself became a chairman of the social studies department at the University of Wisconsin here. And another gal, she was a lawyer, I think she became a prominent lawyer.

TI: So it really was kind of at that, people going through college at that point, amongst the Niseis, kind of the best and brightest of that group.

YM: That's what they claim, yeah.

TI: And I should mention, the book you're mentioning is Storied Lives by Gary Okihiro, where he writes about the Nisei students who were kind of... what's the right word? They were kind of resettled into these different universities off the West Coast.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: So eventually you graduated, you finished Washington University.

YM: Uh-huh, graduated in 1944.

TI: And what was your degree at that point?

YM: Bachelor of Science.

TI: So a B.S. in...

YM: Mechanical engineering, B.S.M.E., yeah.

TI: And I'm curious, your classmates, generally what kind of jobs would they look forward to, graduating with a mechanical engineering degree?

YM: Well, I think they were trying to find jobs in their field of study. I was looking for a job in engineering. I went to Detroit after graduation because my sister and her husband had just, they arrived in Detroit from Poston. And he got a job there, so I went there and I was on my way to the East Coast to join Alice. But then I felt I needed a job, so I took a job with the City of Detroit, the Advance Plan Division of the engineering department. And I worked there for a few months until I was drafted.

TI: Okay, so let me recap that. So you graduated from Washington University in St. Louis, you go to Detroit because your sister's there with her husband, and while you're there, you apply for a job to work for the city of Detroit. And you get a job, and then after a couple months, you're drafted into the army.

YM: Uh-huh.

TI: Okay, so after only working a couple of -- well, even in those couple of months, tell me what it was like working for the city of Detroit? What was that like?

YM: Well, it was, you know, kind of a beginner's job, so it was more or less on the drafting board working on pumping stations and things like that.

TI: And how would you say people accepted Japanese Americans in Detroit? Was that a good place to be?

YM: Well, we were accepted, except there was a problem. As I recall, we were looking for a house, and it was kind of difficult to find housing at that time. I don't know whether it was because of discrimination against Japanese or what, but anyway, we ended up in, I would say, more or less, substandard housing. Maybe that was all that was available at the time, I don't know. My brother-in-law did most of the work hunting down homes for us.

TI: Now, was Detroit booming at this point in terms of...

YM: Very much, oh, yes. Wartime, the automobile industry was turning out tanks and aircraft and things like that. Yeah, it was a lot of work.

TI: Now, at that point, were some of those war jobs closed off to you? Could you have worked in a tank factory, things like that?

YM: No, I didn't experience anything like that. I just, I don't think I applied to too many places. I remember, while in Chicago, I applied at the Chicago Pump Company, but they weren't offering me enough of a wage, so I decided I'd move on from that. But Detroit was paying a pretty decent wage, so I decided to take that job.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: Okay, let's go to your military. So you're drafted into the military, and so where were you inducted, where did you go?

YM: I was inducted, I forgot this particular station that's up in Chicago, up along Lake Michigan there near Evanston, whatever the name of that places is, I forgot now. But we went there and I was inducted. And I noticed while there, there were a lot of German prisoners of war working in that camp. Then we were handed our uniforms and given our shots and so forth and put on the plane, train, to go down to Florida. Camp Blanding, Florida, which is near Jacksonville. We arrived there around January, and I didn't think Florida was a very cold place, but I discovered that northern Florida is very cold in the wintertime.

TI: And then this is where you did your basic training.

YM: Basic training, yes.

TI: And when you did basic training, was it with kind of the general population, kind of a mixed environment, or was it with Japanese?

YM: All Japanese.

TI: Okay, so it was a segregated training.

YM: Yeah, uh-huh.

TI: So tell me about that. What were some of your memories?

YM: Well, we lived in huts of, eight person to a hut. And right in the center of the hut was a coal burning stove to heat the hut. And our, the cadre, the trainers, were all Caucasian, of course. And we did our usual, you know, going on the firing range and taking long hikes and all that sort of stuff. Strenuous, strenuous training, yeah.

TI: Now, were you, did you tend to be a little bit older than the other, sort of, trainees, because you had just graduated from college? Or were they about the same age?

YM: I never noticed. I thought they were all about my age.

TI: How about where they were from? Do you recall some of the different places they were from?

YM: Well, some of them were from the San Francisco area. One of my very good friends that I was at the university, Washington University with, he was there with his cousin in the next battalion and I didn't even know that until many years after the war. We roomed together at Washington University and I didn't even know he was close by. There were lots of Japanese young kids.

<Begin Segment 16>

TI: Now, I'm curious, because in basic training, because of your education background, did they put you off or single you out?

YM: They didn't segregate us there at basic training, no.

TI: But did they have you take, like, IQ tests and things like that during training?

YM: No, it wasn't until after the training was over, then they segregated some of us who had college degrees to go somewhere else. And some went to the Signal Corps, others, I think they probably went to the Military Intelligence Service. My friend, who was at Washington University with me, he went into counterintelligence, and then I went into engineering.

TI: And then describe that process. So after you finished basic training, did you fill out, like, these forms, or how did they know that you should go engineering, someone --

YM: I don't know. We just had orders to report to Ohio State. And there were other, there were other Japanese Americans there, I don't even remember who they were now. But there must have been a good company of Niseis there.

TI: And when you took courses at Ohio State, were they, again, segregated, was it just Japanese or was it all now mixed?

YM: You know, it's difficult for me to remember just what it was. It might have been a mixed group. I'm sure it was. The army specialized training, they called it, so they get all these other kids in there besides Japanese.

TI: And so I'm curious, when they say "specialized training," is it taking your engineering background and giving you more advanced training on military items, or how would you describe that?

YM: Well, as I recall, it was pretty much a review of stuff that we already had. Mechanics and thermodynamics and some math and so forth.

TI: And in general, when they do this in the army, what kind of positions are thinking that you would go into?

YM: Well, they were planning to put us in the engineering corps, I guess. I ended up in a combat engineering battalion.

TI: Okay, and how long did you do this?

YM: As I recall, we were there only about three or four months, and then we were transferred to Fort Belvoir, Virginia.

TI: Okay, so this is the beginning of 1945.

YM: This is late in '45, I think it was. We finished basic training, I don't know what it was, like April, perhaps, something like that. And it was sent over to Ohio State for about three or four months, I don't remember exactly what it was. It might have been longer than that. And then from there, we were sent to...

TI: To the OCS?

YM: To Fort Belvoir.

TI: Now, explain that. When you were sent to Fort Belvoir, this is Officer Candidate School, to be trained to become an officer, how did you decide, or how was it decided that you would become an officer.

YM: Somebody decided for us, I think.

TI: [Laughs] So they said, "Yo, you have to go here now"?

YM: Yeah. They needed, they needed officers, I guess. Apparently they lose a lot of officers during combat.

TI: Which, while this was all going on, how familiar were you with the 442 and what they were doing in Europe?

YM: I really wasn't. I don't know whether I even heard of them until later. But I'm sure those that I trained with in basic training that did go into specialized training, I'm sure they went to replace, as replacements. Because 442 had just finished their campaign in France where they lost hundreds of kids. And they were back in Italy at that time, and I think these guys we trained with were sent over there.

<Begin Segment 17>

TI: So let's go to the Fort Belvoir, the Officer Candidate School. And so what was that like?

YM: It was mainly going out in the field and learning how to build bridges. There were different kind of bridges, timber bridges, pontoon bridges, Bailey bridges, we were doing all that sort of stuff. All engineering kind of work.

TI: Now how was that for you? Was this pretty interesting, kind of applying your engineering...

YM: It was tough, really tough. You go out in the woods and you live out there in a little pup tent. We'd go out and cut down trees to build the bridges and then you go to a river and you put these Bailey bridges together. They're steel bridges, they come like an Erector set, you put 'em together. Learned how to put those across a river. That was really tough.

TI: Tough meaning the physical...

YM: Physically, physically, yeah. Living in the woods, you know, and I remember being chewed up by chiggers, they get all over you while you're sleeping. [Laughs]

TI: Okay. About this time, the war actually comes to an end in Europe.

YM: In Europe, yeah, and then we're in training out in the hills, we were at Fort Belvoir. The war in Japan -- I remember we were in the woods and an officer came driving up and said, "Oh, they dropped a bomb on Japan," and that's about all we knew. We didn't know it was an atom bomb or whatever, he says, "The war is over," or something like that. That was August, I think it was.

TI: Now, I'm curious, with your, sort of, engineering training, when they say "drop the bomb" and they said, at some point, atomic bomb, what did that mean to you? Did you understand...

YM: Well, we didn't even know what an atomic bomb was. It was just a terrific bomb that was dropped, and that's about all they said. And in a few days, the war was over.

TI: And so what did you do next? You're in Officer Candidate School, the war in both now Europe and Japan is over, so what do you do next?

YM: Well, I decided that I didn't want to continue with Officer's Candidate School. And so I made that fact known and they told me that, "Well, you can resign, but then we'll have to send you overseas right away." So that's what they did.

<Begin Segment 18>

TI: Okay, but before you did that, my notes indicate that you got married about this time.

YM: Oh, yeah. Before I shipped over, I got in touch with Alice and I said, "I'm going overseas. Should we get married?" And she said, "Okay." [Laughs] And so it was a quickie wedding.

TI: And so describe that. Where did you get married, who was there?

YM: Well, I had a friend who stood with me as best man, and she had a college friend that was her maid of honor. I got a weekend pass from Belvoir, I went into Washington, D.C. I just had my suntans as far as clothing is concerned. So I went to a local cleaning shop and I took my clothes off and had them press it for me while I stood behind the curtain. Then I went to a jewelry shop and picked up a couple of rings, hopped on the train, and I met Alice. She was doing her internship in New York City, so she came down by train and we met at the church that she attended while she was in, going to Temple. And we were married by her minister.

TI: So this is in Philadelphia?

YM: In Philadelphia.

TI: And what was Alice's maiden name?

YM: Abe.

TI: And so this happened pretty quickly, everything.

YM: Well, yeah, it happened very quickly. And somebody gave me the other day, I don't know whether my sister-in-law or whoever, a telegram. In those days, telegrams came in yellow sheets with little strips. And she handed this to me and I opened it, and it says on there, "Yo and I were married today. Alice." It was sent to my folks. [Laughs] So I kind of treasure that.

TI: And so had you communicated with your folks before getting married?

YM: No, I didn't tell 'em we were getting married or anything. [Laughs]

TI: How about Alice? Did she, well, her father was sick.

YM: Yeah, I don't know whether she informed her parents either. It was just one of those things.

TI: And how much dating had you done with Alice prior to getting married?

YM: Not too much. We dated while we were at Tanforan, and then when I was working after graduation in Detroit, I remember taking a train to Philadelphia, and then that was the only time. I came home, and we continued to write to each other. It's just lucky for me that she didn't decide to go somewhere else. [Laughs] I'm very fortunate in that respect. She's a wonderful gal.

TI: That's a great story. So married in Philadelphia, but now you have to get shipped overseas.

YM: Yeah, well, three days, we spent two or three days together, and they shipped me to the West Coast. I was supposed to go to Japan, so they sent me to Camp Beale, California, just near Sacramento. I was there a week and then they said, "You're Japanese. We can't send you to Japan." It'd be the army of occupation, you know. "So we have to send you to Europe." So they shipped me all the way back to the East Coast.

TI: That's interesting. Because, in fact, they were actually shipping a lot of Niseis to Japan during the occupation.

YM: Yeah, I don't know what the reason was, but I was shipped all the way to California and they decided to send me back to the East Coast and send me to Europe.

TI: It's almost like a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

YM: Well, that's typical army, I think.

<Begin Segment 19>

TI: So you go to California and then you get shipped back to the East Coast to be then shipped to Europe.

YM: But I'm happy they did that, because then I had a chance to go to Europe. I think both places were in tough shape, naturally. But I was able to go to Berlin. I spent about eight months in Berlin, I guess it was.

TI: And what kind of duty did you have in Berlin?

YM: Well, I was with operations, S-3, Battalion S-3, and we were in the American sector. Berlin at that time was in the Russian part of Germany, and Berlin was just a little island in a Russian area. And divided into four parts, French, English, Russian and American zones, four zones. And it was called Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Forces. That was the purpose of that site in Berlin. And so our job was mainly to maintain the buildings, repair the buildings using German prisoners of war. And while I was there, I was able to see a little bit of Berlin. Of course, it was pretty well devastated except for a few buildings where we were able to... one building was a concert hall that wasn't destroyed, so we used to go to the symphonies every week. And I had a jeep, so we'd drive to the lakes, to the beaches. And I used to take piano lessons from some woman who apparently was a concert pianist. And went to a building, the University of Berlin was right near our sector, so I'd go there and take piano lessons. And in those days, cigarettes were a medium of exchange, you might say. So I would pay with a cigarette or whatever, I'd get a haircut for one cigarette, and laundry for one cigarette, and so forth. The Germans had it real tough in those days.

TI: So describe that. When you say the Germans had it really tough, I mean, how devastated was Germany?

YM: Well, it was a very cold winter. I guess it was the coldest winter ever for the Germans and for us. And so you'd see Germans constantly walking around trying to pick up wood for kindling. And we'd see them walking around... they'd come to our company area and, of course, the GIs would be smoking and they'd flick, flick their butts. And the Germans would go after those butts, and they'd use it for making, either smoking themselves or making another cigarette out of it and using it for a medium of exchange. Because they could by a head of cabbage with one cigarette and that sort of thing. The place was just completely devastated, just a pile of bricks, like a brickyard. Except where we were staying, we stayed in the apartment sector, where I think the faculty of the University of Berlin people stayed. The room I had was just lined with books on the wall.

TI: And how about just the communication between you and the German people? Did you have much?

YM: We had German women working in our offices, secretarial staff. And I was taking German lessons from one of our secretaries. I'd go to her house in the evening and be sitting at the table, and I'd be smoking in those days, so I'd put a pack of cigarettes on the table and her dad would come around, walking around the table and eyeing the cigarettes, you know. And I said, "Go ahead, help yourself," and he'd take cigarettes. Once, Alice sent me a box of chocolates, so I brought those to her house and put 'em on the table and said, "Help yourself." That was a real treat for those people. They just didn't have that. Yeah, it was quite an experience.

TI: And for you, it sounds like you took this time to do things like learn to play the piano, learn German...

YM: Yeah, we had time on our hands.

TI: And so was that typical of the other GIs, to do things like that?

YM: Well, I don't know about the other GIs, some of them did, I guess. Most of the GIs were more interested in drinking beer and whatnot, cutting up a little bit.

TI: Were you able to travel to other parts of Europe during this time?

YM: No, unfortunately, it got to a point where they said we could go to, I think it was Switzerland. And I thought, "Oh, boy, I'm going to Switzerland and maybe get some milk to drink or something." [Laughs] But by that time, my orders came to return home, so I didn't get a chance to go there.

TI: Now, have you been back to Berlin since?

YM: I was in Berlin two or three years ago. I was just curious to see what it was like.

TI: And what was your reaction when you saw it?

YM: It's a beautiful city now, just beautiful. All the devastation is gone, all new buildings, you know. And just a beautiful place. I tried to find the area where we lived, but I just couldn't find it. I think it's all been torn down and rebuilt.

<Begin Segment 20>

TI: So after about eight months in Berlin, you're now ordered back?

YM: Came back, yeah. And I went to the same place where I was inducted, I believe. Yeah, I remember I went there, and then I went to Detroit. By that time, Alice had finished her internship and she was in Detroit because she knew I was gonna go there. She was living with my folks there, and she had a job as a dietician at Grace Hospital. So I joined her there, and then we found an apartment and we set up housekeeping.

TI: So when you returned, first tell me about your parents. How, it had been several years now. How had they changed?

YM: Well, they had been living with my sister and her husband when they first came out of camp. And when I returned, they had found some kind of a public housing and they were living there with Alice and my brother, my younger brother. And it was sort of tight quarters, but they were doing okay. My dad had found a job as some factory custodian or something, custodial job. And my mother was doing, she was a very good seamstress, so I think she was working at some ladies dress shop doing fittings and things like that. So they seemed to be doing okay. And my brother was going to school, I think he was either... yeah, I think he was in high school by that time.

TI: And so you returned, so your parents are there, your brother, your older sister and her husband are there.

YM: Yeah, there.

TI: And Alice. And so what do you do?

YM: Well, I thought I'd take advantage of GI Bill and go get my master's degree, but then I had a change of heart. I said, I have my job waiting for me here -- they had to keep your job for you. "I think I need some money," so I went back to work. I never did get back to college to get my master's.

TI: So you started back with the City of Detroit working that job?

YM: Yeah. And then my first son came along, and then we bought a home right in Royal Oak, Michigan, and our second and third sons came along. Alice quit working as soon as the first one was born. And so we lived there for seventeen years. I returned in 1946, and we left Detroit in 1961. In the meantime, I had gotten another job, I left the City of Detroit and went to work for another consulting firm, engineering consulting firm.

TI: And were you sort of specializing in a certain type of consulting or engineering?

YM: Well, it was more or less architectural engineering, which involves heating, ventilating and air conditioning and so forth.

<Begin Segment 21>

TI: And so what was Detroit like growing up in the '50s? This is, you have three young boys, a wife, I mean, what was that like?

YM: Well, it wasn't bad, you know. They, the riots came later, after we left. But it wasn't too bad. We had a lot of friends there, Japanese American friends. I think we went back to kind of associating with other Japanese, although we had a few, I guess we did have a few American, Caucasian friends.

TI: And what was that like? So this is postwar Detroit, so these are Japanese Americans who resettled to Detroit from different parts of the West Coast, probably?

YM: Yes.

TI: And where would you meet? Was there like a community activities or just...

YM: Well, in the beginning, there was a place where, a community house, where the Japanese coming out of camps lived together. And they have a lot of activities there, I guess, but I didn't live there with them.

TI: And how about Isseis? Were there very many Isseis in Detroit?

YM: Yeah, there were a number of Isseis. My parents had a number of friends.

TI: And what did they do? Did they have similar type of social gatherings where they would get together?

YM: I think they did. I was just wondering, did they go to church? They must have gone to some Issei church, I can't recall right at the moment. Anyway, one of their friends was Kubotas. You know, the one that made this film, their parents? Well, Jim and...

TI: Oh, okay.

YM: Jim and Toby Kubota were the parents of the one that made the film. And their parents were my parents' friends.

TI: And so you mentioned earlier, church, so did they form a church that was mostly Japanese American Japanese?

YM: They must have. I don't, just can't recall where they went, though. I'm sure they did, but I just can't recall.

TI: And how about things like JACL? Do you know if they started a JACL chapter in Detroit?

YM: I think JACL was active in Detroit, although I didn't belong, we didn't belong to the JACL there.

TI: And during that time, what was your view of the JACL? Why did some people join and other people didn't?

YM: I think mainly because our friends weren't members of the JACL. I don't think we had much to do with the JACL until we came to the Twin Cities.

<Begin Segment 22>

TI: Okay, so you spent seventeen years in Detroit and you had family there. What caused you to move from Detroit to St. Paul?

YM: Well, I got an offer to work for the 3M company here in St. Paul. I thought it was a good move to make, and as it turned out, it was a good move to move out of Detroit. [Laughs] But anyway, we moved here in 1961.

TI: And so your boys were all kind of adolescent days?

YM: Well, the eldest, Steve, was in high school. And David was in junior high school, and Joe, the youngest, was in elementary school.

TI: So it was probably a tougher transition for your older boys.

YM: It was tough for Steve.

TI: To have to leave, yeah.

YM: 'Cause it high school, it was kind of hard to make friends, you know. But Dave and Joe adapted very well.

TI: And so what kind of work did you do at 3M?

YM: Well, it was mainly the same sort of work I'd been doing in Detroit, it's building construction work. We did a lot of, instead of regular commercial buildings, we were doing factory buildings. And we, our division was called Central Engineering and we were sort of a service group for the other division engineers. There are several division engineering groups at 3M, tape division and abrasive division, they all each had their own division and their own engineering groups. But they were mainly involved in process engineering. And if they wanted to build a plant in some location in the U.S., they would call on us to find the real estate and to provide the plants for them. So we would do that. Either hire other architects or we'd do the design ourselves.

TI: Well, this must have been a busy time. Because 3M became a really huge corporation.

YM: Well, it was a small company when we went there. I think it was like a five hundred million dollar business. And by the time I retired it was up around eighteen billion dollar business. So it really grew.

TI: And with that, lots of their plants, their facilities, you probably were part of a lot of those new buildings?

YM: Yeah, I was part of some buildings in California and Oregon, places like that.

TI: Now, I'm curious, you spent time in Detroit and there was a Japanese American community there, and then you come to the Twin Cities and there was another Japanese American community. How would you compare the two? Because they're probably about the same size?

YM: I would imagine it's about the same size, yeah. Of course, we didn't know anyone here except one family. He was, they were San Diego people. And so the first thing I did when I arrived here was to look him up, and through them we met, well, there were two brothers. And through them we met other people. And so we were rather latecomers as far as the Japanese community is concerned, so I don't know a lot of the people. A lot of these people yesterday, I don't know them. Yosh Matsuura, I never knew him. Yesterday was the first time I met him. There are number of people like that.

TI: And you said that when you came to the Twin Cities, you got involved with the JACL here? So why did you get involved with the JACL in the Twin Cities?

YM: Well, not right away, but eventually you start to meet people and then you join the group. There were other groups here like Japan-America Society of Minnesota and St. Paul-Nagasaki Sister City Committee and other groups, Nikkei Project. We were kind of active in the Como Park Japanese garden and things like that.

<Begin Segment 23>

TI: So now I want to ask about raising kids. So both you and Alice were Niseis, and you have three boys, Japanese Americans, Sanseis. Did you do anything, you and Alice, in terms of consciously thinking about Japanese culture, Japanese identity, for your Sansei children?

YM: Not particularly, I don't think. There weren't too many opportunities for that, I don't think. Alice was, you know, she was sort of more steeped in Japanese culture than I was. In San Francisco, they have a lot more Japanese activities, and her father being very active in the Japanese community there. So she was very good at Japanese language and she used to communicate with our relatives in Japan in Japanese. But she spoke Japanese pretty well. But here, among the Niseis, maybe just like we're doing here, we just speak in English and don't have too much Japanese culture as far as certain activities. Of course, food, we always enjoy Japanese food.

TI: Well, so for instance, like on New Year's Day, did you have like a special, special foods for the family?

YM: No. We used to, when my parents were alive, we'd have Japanese food. And we'd do mochitsuki, which is making mochi from rice, you know, that sort of stuff. But not so much now.

TI: Well, the mochi making, did you do it traditionally with the pounding?

YM: With the pounding, yeah.

TI: And this is when the Isseis were around, or more recently?

YM: Well, this is mainly when my parents were still alive. We'd drive down to Detroit, they were still there, and we'd drive down there and on New Year's, we'd have mochitsuki. And my mother would be the one that cooked the rice, and then she'd turn the thing over while my brother and I would pound the rice. [Laughs] That was delicious, really enjoyed that.

TI: Good. And anything like, any Japanese festivals like Obon dancing, Bon Odori, stuff like that?

YM: They do have Obon here. I don't attend them, but they have lantern lighting services and all that sort of stuff. The JACL group does that, I believe. And there are a lot of Japanese from Japan are here, the new, we call them Shin Issei, new Isseis. And they do a lot of that, but I don't get involved with that.

TI: And so looking at your three sons, have any of them expressed any interest in Japan or Japanese culture? Like have they traveled to Japan, have they shown interest?

YM: Well, I mentioned Susie, Helen's daughter that my second son married. When he married Susie -- Helen's family is Buddhist, and our kids were raised as Protestants. And when David married Susie, he became a Buddhist. They were married in a Buddhist service and everything. And Susie was a very devout Buddhist, and they often spoke about going, taking time and going to California to the Institute of Buddhist Studies to study Buddhism for a period, like a year or so. But unfortunately, she died before that happened. My son then decided -- he was a lawyer -- he practiced law for about a year after she died, and then he decided, well, if he's going to go to California and do a, they decided to take this course, I think it was for a year. And when he completed the course, then they offered him a scholarship to go to Japan and study Buddhism there for four years. So he gave up law and went there and studied at the Nishi Honganji at Kyoto. And when he was finished, he became a Buddhist priest. And while he was there, he met Diane Hane, who was, she was a Sansei girl from San Francisco. She was, graduated in, she was an art major, and she was in Kyoto studying Japanese textiles. And David met her, they were living in the same dormitory. And so they got married in a Buddhist ceremony in Japan. We went there, and they were married in a Buddhist temple. Then they came back, and he, the first thing he did was become an assistant minister at the Stockton Temple. And then he became involved with the Institute of Buddhist Studies. And recently they moved to Berkeley and he became the pastor of the Berkeley Buddhist Temple, and also he's the director of Institute of Buddhist Studies where they train students to become priests, Buddhist priests, without having to go to Japan like he did. And they offer graduate courses for the university. So he speaks Japanese. When he went to Japan, he couldn't speak Japanese at all. But when he finished the course, he was very good. He translates books for other people into English and so forth, back and forth.

TI: Interesting. It's not a very common path for Sanseis to do this.

YM: No.

TI: This is the first time I've heard of someone really getting into it. And was there a particular reason you thought? I guess maybe his marriage to Susie may have influenced that, to go into Buddhism and then all that?

YM: Yeah, I think Susie influenced quite a bit in that direction. She was quite a gal.

TI: Good. So, Yo, that's all my questions I went through. And I wonder, is there anything else that I didn't ask about?

YM: Well, my eldest son, Steve, he, all three of them graduated from the University of Minnesota. And he went to Cornell to get his doctorate degree in biochemistry, and then he went to UCLA to do post-doc work. And from there, he went to work for Allergan, a pharmaceutical company. They specialize in high care products, also they manufacture Botox. He does testing for them, safety testing. That's his responsibility at Allergan.

TI: And he's still located in California?

YM: Yeah, he works in Irvine, California, but he has a home in San Clemente. Then my youngest son graduated from the University of Minnesota and he went to Mayo medical school, and there he met Jane Sexton and they married while they were seniors. And they have four kids.

TI: I'm sorry, you were telling me they all go to, a lot of them go to impressive schools.

YM: Yeah, they are real good kids.

TI: And so you have four grandchildren?

YM: Four grandchildren. David, the minister, has one son, about eighteen, I think, but the boy was born Downs, Down Syndrome. So he lives at home with them.

TI: Good. Anything else that you'd like to think back, reflect on? You mentioned Alice earlier.

YM: Yeah, I can't think of any. Of course, Alice was a dietician, she became the head therapeutic dietician at St. Joseph's Hospital here in St. Paul.

<Begin Segment 24>

TI: I do have one more question I just thought of. So you grew up on the West Coast and then pretty much spent your life away from the West Coast.

YM: Yes.

TI: And I was just curious, your perceptions of people who perhaps were on the West Coast before the war, went to camp or school, and then returned to the West Coast. Differences in terms of Japanese who are more West Coast Japanese Americans and those who are like the Midwest or East. Anything that you noticed in terms of differences?

YM: No, I really haven't thought too much about that. I think the West Coast Niseis probably associate more with other Niseis than we do. I think we have a tendency to have more Caucasian friends. I was going to mention that those of us that went to, were able to go to college, we were helped by, I don't know whether you've heard of the Japanese American Student Relocation Council that was formed by the Quakers. They helped us to relocate to the universities. And in 1980, out in the East Coast, there were a group of those students who were benefited by this council. They decided that it's time to pay back. So they formed something called the Nisei Student Relocation Commemorative Fund. And so we all contribute to the fund, and every year at different cities, last year it was here, and 1980 also it was here, we give a scholarship to Southeast Asian students. And that's been going on for over twenty or twenty-five years now. There's a name, they have several name funds, there's a name fund for Alice, and I was able to award that to a Vietnamese, no, a Hmong girl last year.

TI: And I'm curious, why did the group decide to give scholarships to Southeast Asians?

YM: Well, I think what they said was that they wanted, they felt that they were removed from their homes. They were in similar situations as the Japanese Americans, they were uprooted, so they needed help, so they were selected to be the recipients of scholarships. One of our good friends, Alice's good friends from San Francisco was the one that started the thing, I believe, with a bunch of other East Coast Niseis. Anyway, it's been a very successful program, keeps getting bigger every year.

TI: I read about it, I think it was maybe in the Pacific Citizen or something, I keep reading about the program and what it's doing. It sounds like a great project. Well, good. Yo, thank you so much for taking the time doing this.

YM: Well, thank you.