Densho Digital Archive - Walter N. Matsuoka Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: Today is December 9, 2009, Wednesday, and we have Jill Shiraki, who's interviewing with me, Tom Ikeda, and we have Dana Hoshide on the camera. Dana's also from Seattle. And we're doing the interview in Sacramento at Gene and Jane Itogawa's house. And so we're interviewing Walter Matsuoka. And so, Walter, the first question, can you tell me where you were born?

WM: Walnut Grove.

TI: And do you recall, like, were you at a house, or where you were born?

WM: In a house. You guys went to Walnut Grove? Did you see my house?

JS: We did. Next to Mrs. Mayeda.

WM: Yeah. You know Mayeda.

TI: So that house, you were born in?

WM: Yeah.

TI: Do you remember the address of the house?

WM: P.O. Box 386, I think.

TI: Okay. And do you know who delivered you? Was there, like, a doctor?

WM: Akamatsu, I think.

TI: And this was like a midwife? Like Mrs. Akamatsu?

WM: Mr. Akamatsu.

JS: The doctor in town.

TI: And what was the date of your birth? What was your birthday?

WM: September 25, 1926.

TI: Good, okay. So that makes you, makes you about eighty-three years old today.

WM: Yes.

TI: And when you were born, what was the name that your parents gave you?

WM: Nobuo first, I think, then they put English.

TI: And where did Walter come from? Who gave you the name Walter?

WM: My dad, I think. See, when he... me and David got the English name. They're all Japanese name.

TI: Good. And when you were growing up, what language was spoken in the house?

WM: Japanese.

TI: So when did you first start speaking English?

WM: When we go to school, I think. See, we didn't go to the other school, White school.

TI: Good. Okay, so we'll talk about school a little bit later.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: Can you tell me all your brothers and sisters? So, like starting with your oldest, can you just describe or tell me the names?

WM: My sister Bessie.

TI: And was she the oldest?

WM: Yes.

TI: Okay, Bessie, and then who came next?

WM: Tosh.

TI: Tosh.

WM: And Yosh.

TI: Yosh.

WM: And my sister Rose.

TI: Rose, okay.

WM: And Sho.

TI: Sho.

WM: And me and David.

TI: So two, four, six, seven children. And one, two... two girls?

WM: And five boys.

TI: And five boys. And you were... one, two, three, four... the sixth one. Okay. And today, how many of your brothers and sisters are alive? Besides you and David...

WM: And David, that's all.

TI: Just two.

WM: And my sister Rose.

TI: Bessie is alive?

WM: No, she's gone. Three, all young ones. All old ones die already.

TI: Oh, okay. Good.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: So I want to start now with your father. Can you tell me your father's name and where he's from?

WM: Kumamoto-ken, someplace.

TI: Kumamoto. And do you know... and what was your father's name?

WM: Inouye. [Addressing wife] Hey, Mom, Father's first name was Inouye or what? See, my dad's name's from his wife's side, Matsuoka. Ogata. Ogata.

TI: Ogata. Oh, so it was kind of like, so he took the name of his wife's family.

WM: Yeah.

TI: Okay. Ogata.

WM: Yeah, Ogata.

TI: And what was his first name?

WM: My wife?

TI: No, your dad's first name was...

WM: Tomio. Tomio's Japanese.

TI: Tomio. Tomio Ogata. And do you know when he came to the United States?

WM: [Shakes head] I think he's in there, I think. [Referring to some papers.]

TI: Okay, so we'll get that later. How did, do you know how your father met your mother?

WM: That's... he didn't tell nothing, except cousin, too. See, my cousin was in Hawaii, he didn't tell. Then after that, when we came back, niece and nephew make friend with the family.

TI: Do you know the story of why he took your mother's family name? So he was Ogata, and then went to Matsuoka.

WM: Because the other side, no kids. So my dad married second time. The wife died.

TI: Okay, so this was your father's second marriage to Ogata?

WM: Ogata is (his original) name, then he, take the woman and he used Matsuoka.

TI: Okay, so he was Ogata, then he married Matsuoka. In his first marriage, did he have any children? No children?

WM: No, one, Bessie.

TI: Oh, so Bessie is like a half... stepsister, okay. And was Bessie born in the United States, or in Japan?

WM: I think United States. Huh?

JS: USA.

WM: It got all the name in there. My dad, you know that paper? They got all my family name in there.

JS: Good.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: So let's go to Walnut Grove. What kind of work did your father do in Walnut Grove?

WM: Shoe shop. Before, see, Dad came and worked for the Sada Nursing Home someplace. They got, like in there, everything.

TI: Okay. So at the, describe the shoe store for me. How big was it, where was it located?

WM: Downtown Japanese town.

TI: So in the Front Town?

WM: You went Japanese town, too?

TI: Uh-huh.

WM: This side, pretty big building. See, before, he was doing only shoe, then he want to sell the shoe after that business.

TI: Okay, so he sold the shoes and then...

WM: Repair the shoe.

TI: Repair the shoes. And how many people worked at the shoe store?

WM: Only my dad. My sister didn't help, huh?

[Interruption]

TI: So we're back on camera, and so I just got handed a document, a translated sheet about, from a book, about people from Kumamoto, it looks like a Japanese government book. But it describes your father's...

WM: History.

TI: History, yeah, exactly. So he came, according to this book, in 1907, he came from Japan to the United States. The first thing he did was, he was a farm laborer in Vacaville. Did this for about three years, and then went to Sacramento. Interestingly, he worked at a hospital for nine years. So for a long time he worked in the hospital, and he gradually saved his money, and then that's when he decided to open the shoe store. But he did this in Sacramento, and there were other shoe stores there. And so he decided to move to Walnut Grove where he opened a shoe store, so he was there the only shoe store. It was a hard business, and your mother's health went down, and so (he went to Japan with his sick wife and Baby Bessie). And so maybe this was his first?

WM: Yeah, first wife.

TI: His first wife. Okay, so his first wife was sick and was sent back to Japan. This document was done in 1929, so this was after you were born. But that gives the early history. So 1907, about ten years, so this was probably all before 1920 that all this happened. Okay, good. And that makes sense because Toshio...

WM: '21, he was born.

TI: Yeah. So probably... and Bessie was older, so she was the first...

WM: Ten years' difference.

TI: Got it. Okay, now it makes all the sense. So with your father's first wife, he had Bessie, born in the United States, it looks like she was a very good student, and then the second marriage, there was a gap of about six years before Toshio was born, and that was with your mother. Good.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: Okay, so let's pick it up there. So let me ask about your mother. What was your mother's name?

WM: Juyo Iwanaga before.

TI: And why don't you tell me a little bit about what she was like? If you were to describe your mother...

WM: She was nice.

TI: So she was a gentle woman?

WM: Yes.

TI: And tell me about the relationship between your mother and father. How would you describe that?

WM: It's okay, I think. They made kids. [Laughs]

TI: And how about your father? How would you describe...

WM: He was nice.

TI: And, Walter, so when you and your brothers maybe got into trouble, like if you did something that you weren't supposed to do, who in the family, the mother or father, who would be the one who'd get mad at you?

WM: Dad.

TI: And how would he get mad at you? What would he do?

WM: He never said too much. He said, "Don't do that," like that.

TI: But you could tell when he was angry?

WM: Yeah.

TI: So he started this shoe store in Walnut Grove, and you mentioned, so he kind of worked there himself, he sold shoes, he repaired shoes. Who were his customers? Who did he sell to?

WM: Oh, the Japanese and some outside.

TI: And so did any of the Chinese or white people...

WM: I think so. I don't know, we didn't go to the store (...). He said, "Don't come."

TI: Now, did you ever see how, how your father got the shoes? Like where did he buy the shoes?

WM: Sacramento, I think.

TI: And how would he go to Sacramento? How often?

WM: He'd drive the car, so he got the car.

TI: Oh, so your family had a car.

WM: Only one, that's all. Then we can't drive 'til we get old.

TI: And how frequently would he go to Sacramento?

WM: He used to go once a week or something, go buy the stuff or something.

TI: And when your father worked at the shoe store, what did your mother do?

WM: She had to cook and take care of the yard or something.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: So you're growing up in Walnut Grove. Can you tell me, like when you're a young boy, what are some of the activities you do in Walnut Grove? What are some fun things that you do?

WM: I think we played baseball, swimming, and we used to work when we were a kid.

TI: So let's start with baseball. So who would you play baseball with?

WM: With a group, and they divide together and play.

TI: Okay, so just kind of like sandlot baseball. You had a bunch of friends, would get together, and you would just pick sides and play.

WM: Most of the time we'd go swimming, 'cause everybody knew how to swim.

TI: So how did people learn how to swim?

WM: Everybody just went out and learned how to, that's all. Across the river, they used to go there and touch and come back.

TI: Okay, so I've been... we're talking about the Sacramento River, and so it's a big river.

WM: Yeah, long way. But we go there and come back.

TI: With a pretty strong current.

WM: No, not too much.

TI: Not too much?

WM: Only water was dirty, though. Not like now, clean.

TI: And so, and you guys just learned yourself in terms of how to swim across and back?

WM: Yes.

TI: Were there ever any accidents like people drowning or anything like that?

WM: No. Japanese know how to swim, so if somebody drowning, you go help.

TI: Oh, okay. Do you ever remember people helping others, like maybe --

WM: No, nobody didn't get drowned, that's why it was good. Nighttime, when the white people went there, they got drowned. So we don't go at nighttime.

TI: So no Japanese ever drowned, but you said the white people, sometimes they would swim at night and one person drowned. Okay. So, at the river, you mentioned it was dirty sometimes. How about fishing? Did you ever go fishing?

WM: Fishing was good.

TI: So tell me about fishing.

WM: Catfish and flat bass.

TI: And how would, how would you make your fishing poles? What would the fishing poles be...

WM: They get pole and put the hook, they put the bait and catch catfish. But we catch it, we got to clean it and cook with it.

TI: And so after you caught it, you cleaned it, who would cook it? Would your mother cook it?

WM: We had to cook.

TI: Oh, so the kids would. So describe that? Would you cook it at home?

WM: Home. Barbecue-style.

TI: And did you like catfish?

WM: Yeah, it was good. But now, I like sashimi, striped bass like that. But now, you can't eat fish.

TI: So back then, when you caught the striped bass, you would do sashimi?

WM: Yeah. No, no sashimi. Not that much.

TI: Not that much. 'Cause I would think the water was pretty dirty, I'm not sure if that would, if that was healthy.

WM: Right.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: So fishing, swimming, you talked about baseball. What are some other...

WM: Basketball once in a while.

TI: And when you played these sports and did fishing and swimming, was it always with the same...

WM: Same guys, yeah.

TI: So tell me about that. Who were some of the, like the family names? Who were some of the boys that you played with?

WM: Adachi used to play, but he didn't come.

TI: So Adachi...

WM: And Toyama.

TI: Toyama.

WM: And Murakami. Lot of Japanese there. A lot of people die already.

TI: And then would your, would you do this with your brother, too? Like David, would he come along and play? Or is it just your friends?

WM: No, all friends together.

TI: And so with this group, were there, who was the oldest and who was the youngest? When you played, like, baseball, how, what kind of age range?

WM: About Louie's age.

TI: So how much older would that be?

WM: About couple years, I mean, me.

TI: And then how much younger would it be?

WM: David, about.

TI: Okay, so kind of like a, maybe four year...

WM: Yeah, I'm in the middle.

TI: ...range. Good.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: Let's go back and talk now about school. So you talked briefly, you said you went to a Oriental school? So describe that. What was school like when you went to school?

WM: We used to fight with Chinese. [Laughs]

TI: So the Oriental school, tell me who was there. So you had Japanese and Chinese?

WM: Yeah.

TI: Anyone else?

WM: No.

TI: And were there more Japanese or more Chinese at the school?

WM: Even, I think.

TI: Okay. And so you said sometimes you would fight?

WM: Not too much. We played with the white people, used to fight with them.

TI: I'm sorry, say that again? The white people used to fight with the...

WM: With us. And then we'd play basketball or something in grammar school.

TI: Oh, so the Japanese team would play the white team?

WM: Yeah.

TI: And you would fight? So why would a fight break out? What would happen that...

WM: Then the principal or somebody would stop that all the time.

TI: Yeah, so the principal would stop it, but what would start it?

WM: I don't know. [Laughs]

TI: So going back to the Chinese...

WM: Chinese, they're not too bad.

TI: But when you did fight, or maybe not fight, but...

WM: Argue and everything.

TI: Would you argue sometimes?

WM: Yeah.

TI: Do you remember what you would argue about?

WM: One thing was from China people came, and the Japanese have the farm in school, they used to pick 'em out and they said, "Don't take it." They still take it, and they fight, and all guys did it. We didn't do nothing. Then the Chinese guy got broken arm and everything, and then next day they didn't come to school.

TI: My microphone fell off. But so let me ask you, can you tell me again what happened? So there was a Chinese boy who had his arm broken.

WM: Yeah.

TI: And why was his arm...

WM: They used to steal the cabbage or something, they had farm on the school, then they said, "Don't take anymore," still come and take it.

TI: So this Chinese boy took this cabbage...

WM: Yeah, they said, the Japanese schoolboys, all the guys went after them. [Laughs]

TI: Oh, okay. So the Chinese boy, although people told them, "Don't take the cabbage," he took this cabbage.

WM: Cabbage or something, I forgot now. Something they had planted over there.

TI: Sure. And where did he take this cabbage? Was it from a Japanese farm, or...

WM: Yeah, Japanese farm. You know that school? The grammar school? They had farm over there, on the side.

TI: Okay. So the people said, "Don't take the food," the Chinese boy did, and so the Japanese, some Japanese boys...

WM: Yeah, boys.

TI: ...they beat him up?

WM: Yeah.

TI: And he broke his arm. And so then the Chinese boy didn't come back to school.

WM: No, one day they didn't come. Thursday it happened, I think, and Friday they didn't come to school.

TI: Now, did that cause any problems between the Japanese families and the Chinese families? Did they have to talk about it afterwards?

WM: Then they're friends again. That Chinese boys, came from China, that's what, the local kids was okay.

TI: Oh, okay. So there was a difference between, sometimes, so the Chinese Americans, the ones who were born here...

WM: They're okay. But from China guys.

TI: Oh, so he didn't do this. And so other than that, were there other, maybe, arguments? Did the Japanese and Chinese ever, like, argue or talk about Japan and China? Because Japan and China...

WM: Yeah, they didn't say nothing about that one.

TI: They never fought. How about your father or mother? Did they ever talk about China or the Chinese?

WM: No. My dad don't say nothing much. They didn't tell our cousin, too. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: So going back to the school, so you have Chinese and Japanese, what was school like for you? Did you like school?

WM: [Shakes head]

TI: Why?

WM: Oh, it didn't register with us. [Laughs]

TI: And then did you like sports? Was that kind of more fun?

WM: Exercise.

TI: Because after you finished regular school, the Japanese then went to Japanese school?

WM: Yeah, after school, got to go to one hour of Japanese school.

TI: And so which one did you like better, the regular school or Japanese school?

WM: It was the same to me, but Japanese was pretty hard.

TI: And when you think of the teachers, the regular school and the Japanese language school, how did the teachers compare?

WM: Japanese teacher were better.

TI: Were better? And why do you say that? Why were they better?

WM: They teach you nice, but this school, they got to teach everybody, so, pretty hard for them.

TI: So when you say... say that again. So the Japanese school were better because... I didn't quite understand. Why were they better? They were nicer, you said?

WM: Yeah.

TI: And so were the regular school, they were more strict?

WM: Strict, I guess.

TI: Okay, so they had to discipline people more, maybe.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: Going back to the Japanese language school, so this would connect the language school with your father. In my notes I have that your father helped start the Japanese language school, according to the notes.

WM: I think so.

TI: Which says to me that your father was probably a pretty important person?

WM: Yeah. And my dad did everything for them. Like fire time, he had to go start the pump, the fire, you know. Every morning, if the fire, go over there, and early morning, something.

TI: And what are some other things? So he heated, helped heat the building by starting the fire.

WM: Fire start and then we had a night watcher, they take care, and then fire, then he'd ring the bell or something, and my dad got to go pump that water someplace.

TI: Oh, maybe I misunderstood. So you mean like a fire started and he pumped the water to --

WM: Yeah, they got pumping water someplace in the...

TI: To put the fire out?

WM: Yeah, water.

TI: Oh. So if there was a fire at the language school...

WM: Yeah. But Walnut Grove, Japanese don't make too much fire. They're safe over there. But next street, the Chinatown all burned down.

TI: And so in Chinatown, did they also have, kind of, people, like a volunteer fire group?

WM: No.

TI: Okay, so this is interesting. So your father, though, it sounds like he was part of this volunteer fire...

WM: For Japanese side.

TI: For Japanese side. And so if there was a fire someplace...

WM: But only Japanese side, they went.

TI: And who helped your father do this?

WM: I don't know, he was, it's small (town). But I know he used to go all the time, fire time, he'd go pump the water.

JS: So would there be an alarm? You would hear a fire alarm?

WM: No. The night watcher would go around, and something find, he'd ring the bell or something, I think.

JS: To let him know?

WM: Yeah. Give warning so everybody come out.

JS: Do you remember the big fire in the 1930s?

WM: No. Japanese town had no fire.

JS: But do you remember the fire in Chinatown on the Chinese side?

WM: It was '36 or something, I forgot.

JS: Uh-huh. Do you remember that? Do you remember when that happened?

WM: No, I don't know how it happened, but it burned. It was a big fire that day.

TI: So it's kind of interesting. So at night, there would be one person who would walk around, a night watch, and if a fire started, they would ring the bell.

WM: Yeah, something, I forgot.

TI: And your father would have to wake up, and he would help pump the water to put it out. So how, where were the water pumps located?

WM: The pump, something, I don't know. About two, three block, you got to go in.

TI: And so did they have, like, hoses that they would put on the water pump?

WM: Yeah, then they got the hose, they got stories, two place they have it. And somebody take care of this and one guy... they put together and put it on.

TI: Well, it must have worked, because the buildings are still there, so they were able to save that. How common were fires? I mean, was it because of how they heated the houses that it would burn? Or what caused the fires?

WM: I don't know that. They were small.

TI: So for your father to do this, for someone to walk around, all this would take planning. Someone had to think this through, like, okay, so make sure someone always walks around, and if a fire, they ring the bell and do this. Who, how did the community figure this all out? How did they decide who would do what?

WM: I don't know that one. They used to watch nighttime.

TI: Did you ever see your father go to meetings where they would talk about things maybe like this?

WM: I think they had it, but he just never said that. But my dad would go every time and play pool. [Laughs]

TI: Oh, maybe that was their meetings. [Laughs] Like in the Japantown, was there, did they have something like, in towns today, they have like a mayor, someone who's in charge. In Walnut Grove, did they have --

WM: I don't think so.

TI: -- something like that? So how do you think they decided things like that?

WM: I think they had it, but I didn't...

TI: How about something like a Japanese Association?

WM: Churches.

TI: Church, okay, at church they did that. Now, in Walnut Grove, they had...

WM: Two churches.

TI: Two churches. So the Buddhist church and the...

WM: And the Methodist church.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: And so which church did you go to?

WM: Methodist.

TI: And so tell me about that. Were your mother and father, were they Methodist also?

WM: I don't think so.

TI: So why did you go to the Methodist church?

WM: They're more American-style. Buddhist, it cost money.

TI: Oh, interesting.

WM: Yeah, forty-nine day service. Methodist church, you don't have to pay anything.

TI: So why... so the Buddhist church would have, like, collections, and they would...

WM: Yeah, money.

TI: They would... money. But the Methodist church, they wouldn't do that.

WM: No. We never used to go, only paid penny for offering. If you didn't go, change, my mom don't give us. Then she give us five cents to buy candy. [Laughs]

TI: And so for the Methodist church to have a building and...

WM: Yeah, big one. Did you see it?

TI: Yeah, I saw that.

WM: Big one, but not, all not so good now. Nobody take care.

TI: But it's a big building.

WM: Yeah.

TI: So how did they pay for that? How did, if they don't --

WM: Everybody, member. See, half and half were Japanese, so they got money to pay.

JS: So with the Methodist church, it's partially paid by the provision, and then also by the townspeople. It's an investment, so it's shared cost.

TI: But then you just didn't have to do as much, is what happened.

WM: Right.

TI: In terms of size, for the people in town, did more people go to the Methodist church or to the Buddhist church?

WM: Half-half, I think.

TI: Now, was there ever any arguments between Methodists and --

WM: No.

TI: -- Buddhists? If the Buddhist church had a party or a function, like a festival like Bon Odori or...

WM: Only they had it at that time.

TI: Yeah. So would the Methodists go the Buddhist...

WM: Dance, that's all. And then we used to have a Halloween party, too, our church.

TI: So when the Methodists, when you had a Halloween party, did the Buddhists come to the Halloween party?

WM: Some kids.

TI: Okay, so there was sharing back and forth.

WM: Yeah.

TI: And so people got along and did this. Did the, was it common for people from, say, the Buddhist church, for, sometimes for the family to switch to Methodist church? Did you ever see that?

WM: No, I don't think so.

TI: So once a family decided one church or the other, they stayed in those churches. Good.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: Let me talk about your family life. So when you think about your house, and you have seven children, so it's a big family. How many bedrooms and how did people sleep in that room?

WM: We had upstairs, two, two, two, they stayed. (Narr. note: There were four rooms upstairs. One room for Tosh, one for Yosh and David, one for Sho and Walt, and one for Rose.)

TI: And so how many rooms were up there? Four rooms?

WM: Stayed and my dad stayed.

TI: Okay, so two, two, two, and then that'd be eight upstairs and then one downstairs?

WM: Yeah.

TI: And so your father had a separate room.

WM: Yeah, downstairs.

TI: And then so your mother, who did your mother...

WM: She stayed in one place.

TI: With your father?

WM: Yeah.

TI: Okay, so downstairs, and then the bedroom was upstairs. And so describe kind of a typical day. Say it's a school day. When you wake up, talk, tell me what you did during the day. Like one, just like one day, just describe...

WM: I think we just get up and go to school.

TI: Like breakfast, did you have breakfast?

WM: Yeah.

TI: So describe what would be a typical breakfast? What kind of food would you have?

WM: American food.

TI: Which would be what? What would be...

WM: I forget. I went all over, so I forget now. Young.

TI: So when you say American breakfast, it would be, like...

WM: Bacon and egg or something, (homemade biscuits).

TI: Okay, bacon and eggs. And would you all eat together, all nine of you?

WM: Yes.

TI: And your mother would cook everything?

WM: Yeah.

TI: And then you would eat, and then you would then walk to school?

WM: It was close to our place. We got to eat fast because too many kids. If you didn't eat, all gone then. [Laughs]

TI: So big family, they put it on the table, you have to eat fast. And then when you go to school, about what time in the morning would you go to school?

WM: I forgot. Eight or nine, something.

TI: Okay, eight or nine.

WM: Something like that.

TI: And then you would go to classes. At lunchtime, where would you go? Would you go home or would you stay...

WM: I think we would go home, I think.

TI: And would that be common for the other students, too? Would they all go home?

WM: Yes.

TI: So you'd go home for lunch, and then you'd come back and you would go to school in the afternoon.

WM: Yeah, and then after that, you got to go Japanese school.

TI: And then how long a break did you have between regular school and Japanese school? Not too long?

WM: Not too long.

TI: So you pretty much just walked from one to the other? Would you get like a snack or something between schools?

WM: No.

TI: Then you would go to Japanese school for one hour, and then after that, what would you do?

WM: Play around.

TI: Play around. And then you would come home for dinner?

WM: Yeah.

TI: And then you'd have dinner, and what would be a typical dinner? What kind of food?

WM: Not bad, good food.

TI: American or Japanese?

WM: American. Some Japanese.

TI: So American, sometimes Japanese, and then after dinner, what would you do?

WM: Homework, school.

TI: Okay, so you were probably a good student. You did homework. [Laughs] And then how long of homework do you think...

WM: Not too (long).

TI: Okay, so a little bit of homework, and then when you're all finished with your homework, what would you do?

WM: Go to sleep.

TI: Go to sleep. How about things like a bath? Did you take a bath?

WM: Yeah, we got Japanese bath.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: So did you have your own Japanese bath, or did you go...

WM: Yeah. That was nice. It's the hot water and then you go in there. You can't go in there, you got to wash first and then go in the bath.

TI: Good. So you have your own personal family bath.

WM: Yeah.

TI: And so for your family, describe the bath. What was the, like, the order? I mean, who would go first, who would go second? How would that...

WM: If somebody in there, we (had to) wait and we'd go after (...).

TI: Well, tell me about your father. Would he be, like, first or last?

WM: Last, I think.

TI: He'd be last.

WM: He got to close the door, everything. See, we got to go out in the garage, they got the bath on the other side.

TI: And tell me, who would prepare the bath? I mean, like, start the fire and do all that? Who would do all that?

WM: Dad used to do, but now, you got to do it later. We knew how to put the gas in.

TI: Oh, so you had gas, so that was easier. So you would... so first your dad would do it, but as you got older, then pretty soon...

WM: We didn't want to do it but...

TI: ...the kids could do it.

WM: Before, they used to put wood in and do it, but gas, more faster.

TI: And then, at the end, who would have to clean out the bath?

WM: They, it's just wood, cleaned that.

TI: And then after the bath, then you would go to bed and go to sleep?

WM: Yeah.

TI: Okay, good.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: So earlier you talked about your mother making lots of American food. When she made Japanese food, what kind of Japanese food would she make?

WM: She'd make sukiyaki, fish.

TI: Okay, good. So tell me, in terms of just where your mother would shop for things. So in Walnut Grove, when she went for her grocery shopping, which store would she go to?

WM: Hayashi.

TI: And what other things? Like, for tofu, things like that...

WM: They got tofu. Two people had tofu.

TI: And so did she go to one or both of them?

WM: We got to go after it. My mother don't want to go, so we'd go after it and charge it.

TI: So describe that. So when your mother said, "Walter, go get tofu," what would you do? Would you have to bring, like a container or anything? Or would you just go and...

WM: I forgot now.

TI: So when you got to the tofu shop, how would they know how much to give you? Do you know... did you tell them how much or did they know how much to give you?

WM: One. One tofu we'd buy or something.

TI: But can you remember the container?

WM: No.

TI: Do you remember if it was still warm, or was it cold, the tofu?

WM: I think it's cold. It's got to be cold, huh?

TI: Okay, so you have the grocery store, the tofu-ya, what other stores did sometimes your mother send you to go?

WM: That's all.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: Okay, so let's now talk about your chores. When you, you have a big family, did you have certain, like, chores that you had to do growing up?

WM: Once a year, my dad used to take us to the State Fair, that's all. We got to go.

TI: So the State Fair? Where was the State Fair?

WM: Stockton Boulevard.

TI: I'm sorry, again?

WM: Stockton (Boulevard, Sacramento).

TI: Stockton.

WM: And... someplace, I forgot now.

TI: And what did you like about the State Fair? What were some of the memories?

WM: State... night show, fireworks.

TI: That's good. But earlier you mentioned sometimes you had to... when we were talking about play things like swimming, you also said you, sometimes you had to work. So what were some jobs that you had growing up?

WM: Cut the lawn, like that.

TI: Did you ever do any jobs or work to get paid?

WM: On the farm, we used to go pick pears, tomato, everything.

TI: So describe that. So how would you know about these jobs? Did other boys go with you, or how did that happen?

WM: Every boy go and just pick 'em up. From the pear, they fall down, then we got to pick all the bottom ones.

TI: But describe, so when a farmer wanted you to pick pears, did they send like a truck to pick up the boys, or did someone drive you? How did you get to the...

WM: That, I don't know, I forgot now. When we came back, camp, we got to drive and go over.

TI: Okay, that was after the war you would do that.

WM: Yeah, camp time.

TI: But when you were a boy, so sometimes harvest season would happen when school was in? Did they let you out of school to help harvest, or did you always...

WM: No, only weekend.

TI: Okay, so on weekends you would go out and do this. And would you have to go out there really early in the morning? Do you remember any of that?

WM: No, I don't think so.

<Begin Segment 16>

JS: Walter, were you on any of the sports teams? Did you play on the baseball team for Walnut Grove?

WM: Walnut Grove is old guys. Young guys didn't play, we didn't have...

JS: Oh, you were too young.

WM: Yeah, old people used to play.

JS: I see. So just with the school.

WM: Just with our friends we'd play.

JS: With the friends.

WM: Yeah.

TI: How about organized Japanese activities like judo or kendo?

WM: Yeah, after that, they had judo, everything.

TI: Now, did you do that, too?

WM: I did judo. Then they have sumo, too.

JS: Did you do sumo? Yeah?

WM: When I was a kid. And I did it in camp, too. That's nothing, go push you down.

TI: And so when you did sumo, who were the best sumo people? You had not only the townspeople, but also the...

WM: Only town. Only town guys.

TI: So the farm people didn't do sumo?

WM: Maybe too busy, they're working.

JS: Who was the leader of the sumo? Who organized sumo in Walnut Grove?

WM: I think Yagi, Yagi.

JS: Oh, Mr. Yagi.

TI: Now, I'm curious. So you were in the town, and then you also had all these families in the farms that were outside of town. Did you ever, did you know very many people, of the farm people?

WM: Not too many.

TI: How did the townspeople get along with the farm, the kids? How did you get along with the farm people? Like if you saw them at judo or baseball, did you ever...

WM: They didn't come out, though. After the camp they used to come out and play basketball like that.

TI: Before we go to the war, how about your relationship with the white community? Did you do anything with the white community?

WM: No.

TI: Now, I read someplace where it said that your sister worked in the bank?

WM: Yeah, after camp.

TI: Oh, after camp?

WM: Yeah.

TI: Okay, so not before camp. Was this Bessie, or which sister?

WM: Rose. Bessie was gone already.

TI: Okay. So after war, Rose worked in... okay, so we'll come back to that later, I'll ask about that.

<Begin Segment 17>

JS: Do you remember New Year's Day or any special activities like mochitsuki?

WM: Mochitsuki, we gotta do mochi, and we had a service and mochi in the morning, and then after that we had a lot of food.

JS: Where would you make the mochi?

WM: My home.

JS: At your home?

WM: But they had the nice...

JS: Usu?

WM: ...about three family come and help us. See, he made everything good, my dad.

TI: So he made the mallets, the usu...

WM: You know, that cement, and then we got to hit. But we got to help him.

TI: And how much mochi would the three families make? Would you pound all day?

WM: I don't know. I (don't) remember.

TI: Must have been long.

JS: And then would your mother make all the gochiso for New Year's, and people come to visit your house?

WM: Yeah. Japanese style.

JS: Uh-huh. And then what would you do on New Year's Day? Would you go to other house?

WM: Yeah, someplace, friend's.

TI: Earlier you talked about, at the Methodist church you had Halloween parties...

WM: And Christmas parties.

TI: Yeah, I was going to ask about the Christmas, because that must have been a big event.

WM: Big, yeah.

TI: So describe what would happen at the Christmas party. Where would you have the Christmas party?

WM: Like we'd sing, (play X-mas story) or something. We'd go to get candy, they'd give box of candy. [Laughs]

TI: Back then, did they have things like Santa Claus? Did Santa Claus come to the Christmas party?

WM: Yeah, and give the kids...

TI: So I'm curious, who played the part of Santa Claus?

WM: I don't know. [Laughs]

TI: So it wasn't someone just in the community that they put on a costume?

WM: Yeah, they got a big guy.

TI: Did you have, like, a Christmas pageant to tell the story of the birth of Jesus?

WM: Yeah.

TI: Yeah? And did you have that at the church or at the theater?

WM: Church, I think.

JS: At the church.

WM: Theater was singing and...

JS: Oh, like... oh, okay.

<Begin Segment 18>

TI: Okay, so let's move to December 7, 1941, when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. Do you remember that day?

WM: Yeah. I went to grocery store and Pearl Harbor, and everybody worry, worry, that's all. Nobody bothered after that.

TI: So just when people first heard, then people talked about it and were worried, but then after that, then people... but then eventually, the news came out that the Japanese will have to leave.

WM: Yeah.

TI: When that happened, what happened in Walnut Grove? When people...

WM: Oh, it was sad. Like Walnut Grove, too many people, half of 'em went to Amache and half of 'em went to Arizona. All the farmers went to Tule Lake.

TI: Okay, so three different camps.

WM: Yeah.

TI: So Amache, Poston, Arizona, and also to Tule Lake.

WM: Yeah, all the farmer.

TI: Farmers went to Tule Lake. But the town people...

WM: Half went to...

TI: Okay. But going back to right after Pearl Harbor and people are still in Walnut Grove, so your father has a shoe store.

WM: Yeah. After that, we got to go out, then Jews come, wait for how much they're gonna get it. My dad lose money that day, that time.

TI: Yeah, so describe that a little bit more. So your father has to do something with the store, so describe what he did with the store.

WM: Store, all that shoe, the Jew was waiting for Dad to sell the stuff. He lost money, he don't get half the price.

TI: And so this, he bought the whole inventory, all the shoes?

WM: Yeah. Only shoe [inaudible], we rent the house, you know, Portuguese people, for free. So my dad put all his shoemaker's stuff in the garage.

TI: Okay, so his tools and all his things...

WM: And machine.

TI: Machine, he put into the basement of the house.

WM: In the garage, in the garage.

TI: In the garage.

WM: One side, and he could put one car inside.

TI: And then he rented the house...

WM: Yeah, free.

TI: For free, no rent, but just someone to stay there.

WM: Yeah, just that, watch the house.

TI: And so who did he do that with?

WM: Portuguese, Portuguese.

TI: So a Portuguese family.

WM: They were nice, though.

TI: And did they stay there the whole...

WM: Three year, until we come home, then they go out.

TI: And then, but what happened to the store? So that's what happened to the house, what happened to the store?

WM: Store, it belonged to somebody, rent the place.

TI: So he rented the space.

WM: Yeah. So he just took all the equipment and, making, fixing, but all the shoe, all gone.

TI: And do you recall who he rented the store to?

WM: Brown, Alex Brown.

TI: Alex Brown?

WM: Yeah.

TI: Okay, so you rented it to the person who owned the land, I guess.

WM: Yeah. Like, we stay, they got to pay the place, the crew, rental, too. They couldn't buy the land.

TI: Okay, yeah, they couldn't buy the land, so they... but the building...

WM: Yeah, building belonged to them. If you go out, they'll sell your house, it's all gone.

TI: And when Alex Brown rented the building...

WM: Yeah, town, only town. But the other side, they used to have different guy on...

TI: Okay, and that would be the Dye family. But the Browns, so during the war, what happened to your father's...

WM: Store?

TI: Yeah. Did anyone use it?

WM: Somebody used it, I think.

TI: Did you ever hear your father talking about the Brown family?

WM: [Shakes head] He didn't say much to me.

TI: And what was your impression of the Brown family? Do you think... yeah, what did you know about the family?

WM: Nothing much.

TI: Okay, so let's summarize a little bit. So you're, you know you have to leave Walnut Grove, so your father takes all... so he has to sell his inventory...

WM: All the shoe...

TI: ...at a really low discount, so he didn't make much money there. Then he moves all his equipment and tools to the basement of the house.

WM: In the garage.

TI: And a Portuguese family rents the place, and then he then rents the building back to Alex Brown and then someone else uses it.

<Begin Segment 19>

TI: So describe leaving Walnut Grove. Where did you go to leave Walnut Grove?

WM: Merced. We went to Merced first, and then we went to Amache.

TI: So how did you go from Walnut Grove to Merced?

WM: I think train or something, I forgot. But I know we went Merced to Amache, train.

TI: Now, when you went to Merced, do you remember that day and what you were maybe thinking when you went to Merced?

WM: It was sad. Bummed, man, that place was dirty place.

TI: So tell me, when you say it's dirty, what was it like?

WM: Looked like jail.

TI: And how did you feel about that? When you saw this place that was dirty, looked like a jail...

WM: Can't do nothing.

TI: Do you remember anyone in your family saying anything or the look on their face?

WM: No. Well, no use.

TI: So when you got to Merced, tell me what kind of living quarters... where did you live at Merced?

WM: Barrack, in a barrack.

TI: And so there were nine of you, so it's a pretty big family. So how many rooms did you have?

WM: Two rooms. See, we had boy this side and my (parents) and daughter stay in one room.

TI: And what are some memories of Merced? What did you do...

WM: We stayed only one year over there, I think.

TI: Well, maybe not that long. Maybe... yeah, maybe one or two months?

WM: It must have been that.

TI: Yeah, so it was pretty short. But during that time, do you remember anything that you did at Merced? Like any games or... because you were...

WM: No, we didn't (do any). We didn't play sports, nothing. Short time.

TI: Because you were maybe fourteen years old, fourteen, so you're a young teenage boy. Do you remember ever trying to explore Merced with friends, walk around different places?

WM: We didn't know the friend, all new guys.

TI: But how about some of your friends from Walnut Grove? Were they at Merced, your friends that you played baseball with?

WM: Yeah, Louie was there, same camp, same block. Amache, same thing, he was same block. Amache, more better, we could go out anytime you want. Only one mile to the town.

JS: Do you remember your parents' response? 'Cause your dad was a businessman and very busy.

WM: Yeah.

JS: But then when he went to Merced...

WM: He'd be taking care of the shoe.

JS: He took care of the shoes?

WM: Yeah, foreman, boss, boss.

TI: Oh, so he kind of ran the shoe repair shop at Merced?

WM: Not Merced, they didn't have nothing.

TI: Not Merced, but at...

WM: In the camp, they have co-op, co-op store. So they asked if my dad could do the foreman job.

TI: Well, that would make sense, because he knew the business. Did he ever, when he was in Amache, the camp, did he ever have his equipment from Walnut Grove?

WM: Nothing. He didn't take nothing. He stay, leave it in the home.

TI: Okay, so he left it there.

WM: (We couldn't take any except clothes and one suitcase for each of us).

<Begin Segment 20>

TI: So going from, let's talk about going from Merced to Amache. So you said you didn't have too many memories of Merced, how about when you first got to Amache? What was that like? What are your memories?

WM: Same.

TI: So barracks again, you live in a barracks?

WM: Yeah, and more bigger (than Merced).

TI: And so when, your living quarters, did you again have two rooms or one room?

WM: Two rooms. See, my same thing like that.

TI: And you talked about your father being the foreman for the shoe and the shoe store, shoe repair.

WM: Yeah.

TI: What about anyone else in the family? Did anyone else have jobs?

WM: Yeah. My brother, he was working silkscreen, or what do you call that?

TI: Silkscreen?

WM: Yeah.

TI: So like making signs and things like that?

WM: Yeah. Then after that he went to Denver, no, Detroit or someplace.

TI: And this is Tosh?

WM: Yeah.

TI: So he was kind of like a silkscreen sign maker, then went to Detroit.

WM: Yosh went to, volunteered the service.

TI: So he volunteered into the army?

WM: Yeah, 442nd boys.

TI: Okay, so 442. How about Rose? Did she have a job?

WM: No, she was taking care of the family. But she used to work mess hall, I think.

TI: Okay, mess hall. And how about Sho? Did he have a job?

WM: No, he go to school yet.

TI: School, and same thing with you, you went to school?

WM: Yeah.

TI: So tell me about school. What was school like in...

WM: Okay, not bad.

TI: Well, how did it compare with the Walnut Grove school?

WM: More friendly kind. More people, too.

TI: And how about the learning? Did you learn as much in the...

WM: Not too much.

<Begin Segment 21>

TI: How about things like Japanese culture? Did you do anything like, still do judo or sumo or Japanese language?

WM: We had no language, I think, only church.

TI: So tell me about church in Amache. What was...

WM: But I didn't go there. [Laughs]

TI: So you didn't have to go to church when you were in Amache. So besides school...

WM: Boy Scouts. I was doing Boy Scouts, too.

TI: Oh, okay. Tell me about Boy Scouts.

WM: It was good.

TI: And so you learned all the...

WM: For merit badge and cooking.

TI: Cooking, making knots, doing all that.

WM: Yeah.

[Interruption]

TI: Well, so one of the things Boy Scouts do is they go camping.

WM: Yeah.

TI: Did you ever go camping out of Amache?

WM: Two times.

TI: So describe that. What would a camping trip, where would you go and how long would you be out camping?

WM: One time we went down the place over there about three, four days. And one time we stayed outside of the camp and camped over there. Only two time, I went.

TI: And so how big a group would go...

WM: A big group, you know, five, six, cities like Tule Lake, Turlock, Los Angeles, all of us, group, joined together and went.

TI: And so, like, maybe twenty boys or thirty boys or even more?

WM: Our troop?

TI: Yeah.

WM: Our troop, yeah, about twenty.

TI: And so in terms of all the camping gear, like sleeping bags and tents, where did you get all that?

WM: I don't think so, we didn't have that, I think. But one group used to have tents, everything.

TI: So that was a different troop that had that?

WM: Yeah.

JS: Were you a Boy Scout in Walnut Grove, too, before camp?

WM: [Nods]

TI: And so tell me about that, the Boy Scouts in Walnut Grove. I mean, how big was that troop?

WM: That was more, though. All Japanese, not too many. A lot of people don't want to join Boy Scouts.

TI: And so who was the troop master, the scoutmaster?

WM: All grownup...

TI: Yeah, but do you remember the name?

WM: (Jack) Ito and Furamoto or somebody.

TI: And where would the Scouts meet in Walnut Grove?

WM: Japanese school.

TI: So the Japanese school building that they would meet. And so when you went to Amache and then the Scouts started there, was it the same scoutmaster, or different scoutmaster?

WM: Different man. (Jack Ito).

TI: So different man. And that sounds, like, interesting, to go camping and do all the cooking and all these different things.

WM: I used to work only sixteen dollar a month, dishwashing.

TI: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 22>

TI: So scouting, you did scouting, you went to school, any other activities? Like sports, tell me about sports.

WM: Only played basketball. No more swimming.

TI: So for basketball, how would they make the floor? Would it just be dirt that they would do?

WM: Yeah, we played dirt. But they got good gymnasium in the high school, but we can't play in there.

TI: So who played in the gymnasium?

WM: Nobody.

TI: Why --

WM: Only high school group, high school time, but outsiders can't go in there.

TI: Oh, really? I wonder, why was that? I mean, here you had this nice gymnasium...

WM: We wouldn't take care of that.

TI: Like on weekends and nights...

WM: Weekends, the janitor got to work extra.

TI: Oh, so they didn't, they didn't use that. And so you had to play...

WM: Outside.

TI: Outside. And so even in the wintertime when it was cold...

WM: They didn't...

TI: They didn't do that. Other memories of Amache? What else can you remember? How about the food?

WM: Good, not bad. Same old food. [Laughs]

TI: Did you always eat...

WM: Rice.

TI: Rice, and as a family, how did you eat? Did you eat together?

WM: No, anyplace you go, first one, first one, they go in there. See, we always go young guy group and stay one table. Mess hall table, about eight guys, four and four or something like that.

TI: And so you ate with your friends, you said.

WM: Yeah.

TI: And the food was okay. Did you ever go to other mess halls and other blocks and try their food, or did you always stay at your place?

WM: No, you can't. They'd know your face.

TI: [Laughs] Although I know some boys who went to other blocks, I was just curious.

<Begin Segment 23>

TI: I want to go back and you mentioned your brother Yosh who went into the service, the 442. Did he volunteer or was he drafted?

WM: Yeah. Lot of people volunteered that don't want to stay in camp.

TI: How did your mother and father feel about your...

WM: But can't help, he wanted to go, so...

TI: How about Tosh? Was he ever going to...

WM: He didn't go.

TI: ...military service? Now, why didn't Tosh go into the service?

WM: He was, something wrong, so they didn't pass.

TI: And did Yosh serve in Europe? Did he go with the 442 to Europe?

WM: Yeah.

TI: And so how did you keep in touch with him? Did you see letters from him?

WM: Yeah, he used to get -- and then one month, and one day, he got prisoner of war.

TI: Oh, so how did the family find out that he became a prisoner of war?

WM: They didn't say nothing. I know my dad was mad, he got killed or something. And about one year, they let us know he's a prisoner of war.

TI: So in that year time, what did the army tell the family?

WM: They don't say nothing.

TI: Did they say he was, like, missing in action?

WM: Yeah, little paper, that's all.

TI: And during that year, you mentioned that, didn't your father think that maybe he was killed?

WM: Yeah, that's what we didn't know.

TI: So that was probably difficult for your father, not knowing. After a year, when he found out that he was a prisoner of war, do you remember getting that news, or when you found out, what your father or mother you thought when you heard that?

WM: See, you say prisoner name, you didn't have to worry too much. But you know what? The United States prisoner, they stay in the farm. And all the Germans come to the Unites States and get nice place, and they didn't want to go back. They're like prisoner of war over there, no good.

TI: Okay, so the German prisoners, when they were caught, some of them were brought to the United States, you said they were, like, farm prisons.

WM: Yeah.

TI: And you said they didn't want to go back, they wanted to stay here. But your brother, his wasn't as good, you're saying.

WM: No. It was bad over there.

TI: So when did your brother get released? Do you remember when he was released?

WM: About one year or something, was in there, I think.

TI: So when he was released, were you still at Amache, or were you back in...

WM: No. He came back to Amache --

TI: Walnut Grove?

WM: '45.

TI: Okay.

WM: Left Amache '45, then we came back. Then we came back, then Filipino (and his wife), a white woman, they say, "We don't want 'Jap' around here."

<Begin Segment 24>

TI: So let's talk about it. So you returned, so Amache, at '45, you returned to Walnut Grove. And when you got back, you talk about this Filipino...

WM: His wife, yeah. They said, "We don't want you guys here."

TI: And who was she? Was she in Walnut Grove?

WM: No, she wasn't, before, they didn't have no white woman there. Then the Filipino guy married the white...

[Interruption]

TI: Oh, so you knew the foreman, and he came and told her that... so he told her to go away, essentially.

WM: Yeah. After that it was okay.

TI: So when you came back to Walnut Grove, how many other Japanese families...

WM: (Sasaki family came back to Walnut Grove).

TI: So you were like the first family...

WM: Two, only two, the first one came in.

TI: So you were the first ones to come in.

WM: Yeah, my dad wanted back to everything.

TI: And so you had to deal with this one woman who said, "No Japs." The other ones who came after you, there weren't any problems. So you saw that initially.

<Begin Segment 25>

TI: When you came back, how did Walnut Grove look? I mean, this was like over three years?

WM: Different.

TI: About the same, you said?

WM: No, not dirty.

TI: It was dirty, a little bit dirty? How about in terms of people living in, like, the houses? Were there different people living than before? So did that, was that different?

WM: [Shakes head]

TI: Not that much? How about the other parts of Walnut Grove? Like the Chinese section and the white section, had those changed very much?

WM: No. Same, I think.

TI: And when you saw the Chinese and the whites, how did they treat the Japanese when they came back?

WM: They didn't say nothing. Can't help it, not our fault, right?

TI: So I'm thinking, when the Japanese first came back to Walnut Grove, it must have been hard to get started again.

WM: Yeah. They might (...) shoot us, maybe.

TI: I'm sorry, say that again?

WM: They might (shoot us maybe).

TI: Oh, so you were afraid that maybe someone might shoot you? But just starting businesses again, making a living --

WM: Later, my dad, yeah.

TI: And so how did people get started again? I mean, like your father, what did he do when he got back?

WM: Nothing. Before that, I know he opened a store again.

TI: So he got the store back, he brought his equipment and everything and started. But I'm guessing the business was pretty slow?

WM: Slow.

TI: So how did he survive? How did he make a living?

WM: I don't know. It was hard to do.

TI: And so who came back with you and your father? I mean, your mother, your father...

WM: And after that, about one week later, lot of people came back. Somebody brave to go first.

TI: So for you, when you came back, you were like the first one. Were you frightened? Were you kind of afraid?

WM: It don't bother me. But [inaudible].

TI: Okay, because you were about, I guess, almost like nineteen years old, maybe? So you were a young man, and you were there to help your father with this.

WM: Yeah.

TI: When the two of you came back, did your father ever say anything to you about what to expect or how to think about things?

WM: [Shakes head]

TI: Okay.

WM: My brother was in uniform, too.

TI: I'm sorry, your brother did what?

WM: Uniform. So army uniform, he came to Walnut Grove, but...

TI: So which brother is this?

WM: Yosh.

TI: Yosh? So your brother, after he was released...

WM: Yeah, then he came to...

TI: He came with his uniform.

WM: Yeah.

TI: And what was the reaction of people when they saw him in uniform?

WM: They didn't say anything.

TI: So going back to Yosh, do you ever talk to Yosh about being a prisoner of war and what that was like?

WM: He didn't like it.

TI: Was it hard? Did he, like, lose lots of --

WM: Yeah, he got home, so he drink too much now.

TI: When you first saw him, did he lose lots of weight? Was he kind of thin or was he, did he look the same?

WM: I forgot. He looked the same to me.

<Begin Segment 26>

TI: But, so going back to Walnut Grove, after the war, so your dad starts...

WM: Store.

TI: A store. What did you do? What did you do when you got back?

WM: Nothing.

TI: So how about work? Did you try to find work?

WM: Yeah, only farm work.

TI: So this was going back picking pears and things like that?

WM: Yeah, tomato.

TI: Earlier you mentioned your sister, Rose, that she was able to get a job in the bank?

WM: In the bank.

TI: And so how long was it before she was able to get that job in the bank? Was it right away, or did it take...

WM: No, later, I think.

TI: Like how much later?

WM: About one year or something. I forget.

TI: And this was the Alex Brown Bank, she worked at?

WM: Yeah.

TI: What kind of work did Rose do at the bank?

WM: In the office someplace.

TI: Did she ever talk about what it was like working at the bank?

WM: [Shakes head]

TI: Did you ever go visit her at the bank? Did you ever see her work at the bank?

WM: I don't go, I have no money. [Laughs]

TI: [Laughs] That was a good answer. So how did... I'm just getting a sense, because the Brown family was so important in terms of owning all that land...

WM: Land, yeah, back there.

TI: And your sister worked closely with, closer to the family because she worked in the bank, if she ever had any thoughts or if she thought, if she had any thoughts about the family or the white families?

WM: No.

TI: She never said anything.

<Begin Segment 27>

TI: Okay, so, Walter, we're going to start the second group. And so earlier you talked about how this family took care of the house when you were away at Amache. And so this was, what was the name of the family?

WM: Enos. But I don't know first name.

TI: And this was the Portuguese family that took care...

WM: Portuguese, yeah.

TI: But later on, they started a restaurant in Walnut Grove?

WM: No, they had a long time ago.

TI: Oh, they had a restaurant? And what was the name of the restaurant.

WM: Tony Enos. I think Tony Enos's Place, I think.

TI: Okay, so people call it Tony's now, Tony's. And what kind of food did they have there?

WM: American food.

TI: And so this was one of the big restaurants in Walnut Grove.

WM: Yeah, in Walnut Grove. And they got bar, that's the way they're making money.

TI: Oh, so the alcohol, the hard liquor.

WM: Yeah. Any place, you got to have bar.

TI: And where was Tony's located in Walnut Grove?

WM: In the corner. You know, you go Isleton, and then it was left side. You know where that bridge? On the bottom.

TI: Okay, so it's on the corner there. And this restaurant was there before the war.

WM: Yeah. Before, they used to have back, but they moved in the front, little bit.

TI: Okay. And how did your family know this family to ask them to take care of your house? Do you know...

WM: I don't know.

TI: ...was there any relationship between your father and their family or anything?

WM: No.

TI: Okay, so this next part, I want to kind of get into understanding how Walnut Grove changed from before the war to after the war. And so let's talk about, first, your family. So let's start with your mother. So when you think about your mother, did you see any changes in her before and after? Did she change at all in terms of her...

WM: She looked the same to me. I see her all the time.

TI: And how about your father? Was he...

WM: Okay.

TI: You mentioned earlier your brother Yosh, who...

WM: Prisoner, yeah.

TI: How did the war change him? Was he different after the war?

WM: Little bit, but can't help.

TI: And when you say a little bit, how did he change, would you say?

WM: Not much.

TI: But, not much, but a little bit, but was he maybe sadder?

WM: Yeah, I think so.

TI: A little sadder, okay.

WM: Those kind of prisoner, they didn't say nothing, that's why. We thought he was killed or something.

TI: Yeah, so it must have been a very difficult process.

<Begin Segment 28>

TI: How about your father's business? Before the war, he had lots of business with Japanese...

WM: Same.

TI: After the war, was it about the same, or...

WM: Same, I think.

TI: So same level, too? Same amount of business?

WM: See, he didn't have no shoe to sell, only fix the shoe. Before, he was making a little bit.

TI: So before the war, he only fixed the shoes?

WM: Yeah.

TI: But he sold some shoes, remember, you said he had to sell the shoes?

WM: Yeah.

TI: But then after the war, he...

WM: Slowed down.

TI: ...slowed down a little bit, okay.

JS: After the war, it was mostly shoe repair?

WM: And sell the shoe, too.

JS: Oh, both?

WM: Yeah. But after that, only fix the shoe.

JS: After, when did --

WM: After camp, we came back.

JS: After camp it was only shoe repair?

WM: Only fix shoe. 'Til my brother took over, Tosh.

JS: Tosh. And Tosh took over about 1950? When did your father retire?

WM: I forget.

JS: You forget.

WM: '48 or '49, something.

JS: Okay, so not too long.

TI: But your oldest brother Tosh took over the...

WM: Yeah, he (took) everything. House -- I could get house, too, money, but Japanese, older brother get it.

JS: Number one son?

WM: Yeah, they're spoiled, man. [Laughs]

TI: Well, that's interesting. When you were growing up, did Tosh, as the oldest brother, did he get, like, special treatment, did you think? Like the oldest son, did he...

WM: Yeah, get everything. He got the shoe shop, everything, and we don't get (any).

TI: And is that okay with you, or how do you feel about it?

WM: Can't help, (couldn't do any), so we got to start from bottom.

<Begin Segment 29>

TI: Now, when you think about Walnut Grove in terms of the number of Japanese that came back, how many people came back to Walnut Grove?

WM: Not too (many).

TI: Like maybe what kind of percentage? Like half or a third?

WM: About a quarter, I think.

TI: A quarter. And so it changed quite a bit, then, because they're...

WM: Yeah, nobody there now.

TI: And in the town, who took the place of the Japanese? So if only a quarter came back, the other houses --

WM: It was open.

TI: Just, but eventually, other people lived in those houses?

WM: Yeah. Somebody come in and buy the house.

TI: And who were they? What kind of, like, race? Where they white, where they....

WM: I can't tell now. Mexican, white or something. See, I don't go Walnut Grove any more. My sister is like me.

TI: So what does that mean, when you say you don't...

WM: She wanted to take everything there, don't take care of us, anything. See, my dad and my mom used to stay there, and kids all grown up, and then want to take care, and I got to take care.

TI: Oh, so when the... yeah, so when your parents got really old, then the Niseis didn't want to take care of them?

WM: Yeah, but my sister-in-law, then they sent to my place.

JS: So your parents stayed with you?

WM: Yeah.

JS: Both of them?

TI: Okay. But staying with Walnut Grove after the war, how about, like, the churches? Like the Methodist church, the Buddhist church, what happened to those places? Did they still continue or did they...

WM: They didn't have that time. After that, war started, and after they come back, the Buddhists got more people, and the Methodists, nobody there.

TI: So then what happened to the Methodist church?

WM: Then they used to have it, and after that, nobody goes, so they used to come down Sacramento.

TI: Okay, so the Methodist church in Walnut Grove. So the building is still there.

WM: Yeah, but no good. All inside, not too good now.

TI: Okay, so it's just deserted now.

WM: I thought they were fixing something over there.

JS: Right.

TI: But then the Buddhist church, you said...

WM: They're going.

TI: It kept going.

WM: They're making money at bazaar, and they ask me to volunteer.

TI: And so do you volunteer? Did you ever volunteer?

WM: Yeah, we used to help shot clock, you know, the thing, we used to make good money for that.

TI: So even though you were Methodist, you went to help the Buddhists.

WM: Yeah. You know Watanabe? He wanted to be boss, he said, "we, we."

JS: He was recruited by Louie.

TI: Yeah, okay.

WM: Janet know.

JS: And Janet, too, huh?

WM: Yeah, Janet knows Louie, too.

TI: Oh, I think that's good, though. I think it's good to keep those things going. How about the Japanese language school? Did that continue after the war?

WM: Yeah, they quit now. Nobody there, so... the farmer used to go Saturday school.

TI: So during the week, the townspeople would go, and then on Saturday...

WM: Farmers.

TI: But then after the war, did anyone go for language school?

WM: No, they didn't have people, they quit already.

TI: So what do they use the building now for?

WM: Social hall.

TI: So a social hall.

WM: And the senior citizen they have every day, they're eating lunch over there.

TI: So a social hall, senior citizen lunch.

WM: And somebody die, you know, for the service, they had to eat over there all the time. The Buddhist church, too small to eat over there.

TI: Now, how does that make you feel? Because you lived in Walnut Grove before the war? And so there were lots of Japanese, it was thriving, lots of activity. And then now after the war, there's nothing...

WM: Nothing going on.

TI: So how does that make you feel?

WM: I don't care. I came to Sacramento.

<Begin Segment 30>

TI: So you were at Walnut Grove for a few years, and then you left. So why did you leave Walnut Grove?

WM: Nothing, job, no job over there.

TI: So where did you go?

WM: Sacramento.

TI: And what did you do in Sacramento?

WM: Sacramento, I was work one year, farm, then '50, Uncle Sam called me.

TI: Okay, so Uncle Sam called you to a draft, there was a draft?

WM: Yeah. The first one to go, '50.

TI: And so this was the Korean War time?

WM: Yeah.

TI: And so where did you do your basic training and what was that like?

WM: One place, only one month, Texas. Just for how to shoot. That's why when they said, say, go overseas, I thought we were gonna go Japan. Then they sent me to Korea. I like to go to Japan, more better.

TI: So only one month of training, basic training, then you're shipped to Korea. And what kind of...

WM: Artillery.

TI: And at this point, what was going on in Korea? When you got there, what was happening?

WM: Just standby, not action.

TI: And during the time there, did you ever see any action in terms of...

WM: Only one time then.

TI: And so why don't you describe that? What was that one time, what happened?

WM: They come in and they say, "Everybody watch it," and they didn't bother us after that. Standby. And we got to move around all the time.

TI: And so when you were based in Korea, did you ever get to do trips to Japan, to visit Japan?

WM: One week, TDY, less.

TI: And so when you went to Japan, where did you go?

WM: My sister was there, older one, Bessie, working for government. So I went there, Tokyo.

TI: And what was it like for -- so what year was this then? This would be 1950?

WM: '51, '51.

TI: And so what was Tokyo like in 1951?

WM: Better than Korea. [Laughs]

JS: When did Bessie go to Japan?

WM: About four years she stayed there, working for government.

JS: So right after the war, after camp?

WM: No, after war, she was in Washington, then went to Japan.

TI: And do you know how she got that job in Japan?

WM: If you're working for state or something, they gave, you're working, they send... like me, I work American field then I go TDY, I stayed in Okinawa one month, work. That's better deal. Nobody bother you.

TI: So because, so Bessie got this job, and what was her job again? She worked with...

WM: Secretary or something.

JS: Interpreter.

WM: Interpreter.

TI: And do you know who she was the interpreter for?

WM: [Shakes head] She (didn't say anything). That's who's she's working with... five years?

JS: Head of the army? Oh, so she was recruited, or she worked for the army.

WM: [Referring to wife] She knows more than me, young.

<Begin Segment 31>

TI: And then so when you finished with the army, where did you go?

WM: McClellan Field.

TI: McClellan Field?

WM: Yeah, airplane.

TI: And what did you do there?

WM: Mechanic.

TI: Okay. How did you learn that? Where did you learn how to be a mechanic?

WM: You know, one month you learn, you did everything.

TI: So one month you learned how to be a mechanic?

WM: Yeah.

TI: For airplanes?

WM: Yeah. Every time you... first, I went for mechanic, and they had no job for me, so a half year I got to go to the warehouse. And after that, they don't pay much, so I changed the job, it was open. So I moved (and went)...

TI: And how long were you...

WM: Thirty-one.

TI: Thirty-one years? Wow. And what kind of airplanes did you work on?

WM: All kinds, jet. (Narr. note: Nos. F106 A&B, F105, F10, F111 and F4.)

TI: Up to jets also?

WM: Yeah.

TI: And how big of jets did you work on?

WM: Big ones, two engine. When we're all different engines come in the plane.

TI: So that's interesting, because you've then seen a lot of changes...

WM: Yeah, job, too.

TI: ...in thirty-one years.

WM: While you're there, you get better job, go up.

TI: Good.

JS: Would you ride in the planes, test pilot?

WM: No, they don't give you, no free ride.

JS: No? No free ride.

WM: Only thing I got free ride (was, I went to) London and Okinawa, work.

<Begin Segment 32>

TI: And so during this time, you lived in Sacramento all this time? Or where did you live when you came back?

WM: Northgate, Sacramento.

TI: And how do you stay in touch with the Japanese community now? Do you, are you part of, like, the Methodist church in Sacramento?

WM: VFW and Boy (Scouts). I still help in Boy (Scouts).

TI: Oh. So the VFW, the Veterans of Foreign War, so it's a veteran's group, and then the Boy Scouts, so how do you stay involved with the Boy Scouts?

WM: Because VFW supports the Boy Scouts. They put me to take care of the Boy Scouts. Can't win.

TI: So are you like a scoutmaster?

WM: No. Everything, they want something from VFW, I got to tell 'em, and the Boy Scouts want something, I got to tell the VFW. For how many year, I do it for them.

TI: And the Boy Scout troop, is this a Japanese American Boy Scout...

WM: Yeah, but now, Boy Scout, you know, parents, Sansei, they don't want to take care of the Cub Scouts. The VFW say, support it, they don't want to do it. You've got to have Cub Scouts to come up. Every time they don't have it, so all the Mexican people want to join the VFW, Boy Scouts.

TI: And so what do you think is gonna happen to the Boy Scout troop in the future? I mean, so...

WM: It'll go down. And the VFW going down, so the more, pretty soon.

TI: How about other organizations you're involved in, anything else? So VFW, Boy Scouts, any other?

WM: Church. Every, tomorrow I got to go help clean the, maintenance job over there.

TI: And what church is this?

WM: Methodist church, Sacramento.

TI: So the Sacramento Methodist church. And tell me how that's been changing over time. I mean, so you're talking about the VFW, the Boy Scouts, how that's kind of coming down. What about the...

WM: Methodist church, to fix the gymnasium, they want money, donate, donate.

TI: So they built a new gymnasium, so they had fundraising and they asked for people. But in terms of the number of people at the Methodist church, is that about the same?

WM: No, going down.

TI: It's going down?

WM: Nisei gone, Sansei don't come. Only Sansei want to play basketball, young kid. And they got to come half time, church, after that, they don't come to church. It's bad.

TI: So what do you think's going to happen to the Methodist church in the future over time? What's going to happen?

WM: Then I'll be dead. [Laughs]

TI: Any other organizations? So church, VFW, Boy Scouts, any other --

WM: That's good enough. I got Kuramoto (Kenjin-kai), I got to help all the time, too. He (is a member of the Kuramoto Kenjin-kai, Gene Itogawa).

TI: And so tell me about that. How big is the group, Kumamoto?

WM: Small now. Everybody died, nobody want to join.

TI: So Sanseis aren't...

WM: No. See, we used to have picnic and everything, now, down, down now.

TI: And so what do you think's going to happen to the Kumamoto-ken group?

WM: At the Buddhist church, we have meeting once a year.

TI: But you think that's also going to...

WM: That's less.

TI: Less and less. And what about Walnut Grove? People interested in Walnut Grove Japanese, what's going to happen there?

WM: Pretty soon like this, too.

TI: Now when you think about that, all these Japanese organizations going down, how does that make you think?

WM: Can't do nothing.

TI: Is it okay, is it sad?

WM: Sad, but you know...

<Begin Segment 33>

TI: So let me talk about your family now. So when did you get married?

WM: '68. No. '78, huh? No, '68. Second marriage.

TI: Second marriage.

WM: First (one), I didn't have kids. '68, see. Huh?

TI: '69.

WM: '59?

TI: '69.

WM: '69, see? I knew that --

TI: Okay, 1969. And before we go there, let's talk about your parents. So do you remember when your father died?

WM: '68, and my mother died '74. That year, but I forget now.

TI: And okay, so your parents died pretty close, 1968, 1974. And so you had a first marriage, and then a second marriage, did you have any children?

WM: First one I didn't have it, second one I had (...).

TI: And how many?

WM: One. One was enough, man, spoiled. [Laughs]

TI: So one child. Good. So that's the end of my questions. Is there anything else that maybe I didn't ask that you'd like to talk about? Like a memory or a story or anything else?

WM: No thanks.

TI: This was really, really helpful.

WM: If you want to know, Louie know everything. [Laughs]

TI: Yeah, I interviewed --

WM: Sometimes it's mistake.

JS: [Laughs] That's why we had to check with you.

TI: Yeah, so it's good for us to ask many people about it, then we have more information to do this. Good, okay. Well, so Walter, thank you so much for taking the time.

WM: Okay, thank you.

TI: This was really excellent.

JS: Uh-huh, thank you.