Densho Digital Archive
Preserving California's Japantowns Collection
Title: Heidi Sakazaki Interview
Narrator: Heidi Sakazaki
Interviewers: Donna Graves (primary); Jill Shiraki (secondary)
Location: West Sacramento, California
Date: October 2, 2012
Densho ID: denshovh-sheidi-01

[Correct spelling of certain names, words and terms used in this interview have not been verified.]

<Begin Segment 1>

DG: So Heidi, we start with asking people to say their full name.

HS: I'm Heidi Hideko Sakazaki.

DG: And where and when were you born?

HS: March 28th, '28, in Clarksburg.

DG: At home?

HS: At home.

DG: Do you know, was there a midwife who...

HS: I'm sure there was a midwife.

DG: And your parents, can you tell us about them and when they came from Japan?

HS: My mother was about sixteen when she came from Japan, and they first started working on the farms, up and down the state.

DG: So they traveled. They were migrant...

HS: Migrants, uh-huh.

DG: And did she come with your father?

HS: My father came first with his grandfather, then he went back to get married to my mother and they came back.

DG: What part of Japan were they from?

HS: Hiroshima.

DG: So she was very young.

HS: Sixteen.

DG: And how old was he?

HS: I think there's about fourteen years' age difference.

DG: And what were their names?

HS: My mother was a Nishimura, -mori, and of course, my father's Sakazaki, Kurato.

DG: What was his first name?

HS: Kurato.

DG: And did they have other children besides you?

HS: Well, my sister and my brother. And one passed away, so there were four and one passed away.

DG: Are you the oldest?

HS: No, I'm the youngest.

DG: So can you tell me the names of your sisters and brothers?

HS: My sister, the oldest, is Tetsuko Sakazaki -- no, Hamasaki. My brother is Shoya Sakazaki.

DG: And if you were born in 1928, they were born in...

HS: My brother 1927, and my sister 1925.

DG: And the other child, the one that --

HS: She was the first one, probably a couple of years before my sister.

DG: So if your parents started out migrant, as migrant farmworkers, that was before you were born, before the children?

HS: Yes.

DG: And when did they settle in this area?

HS: Hard to say.

DG: But before they had children.

HS: Yes, before they had children.

DG: And did they lease land to farm?

HS: Well, you know the Isseis were prohibited from owning land, and so they used a person's name who was a citizen.

DG: So they purchased land in the name of one of your --

HS: Whoever was a citizen, they just borrowed their name. I think a lot of Isseis did that.

DG: So your parents bought land.

HS: Not until after the war.

DG: So they leased before the war.

HS: Under another person's name. You probably are familiar, aware that the Japanese were not allowed to earn, own land.

DG: Yes, and I knew that in some, that after 1920 there were some restrictions on leasing.

HS: I think about 1923 or so.

DG: But most of the people we've talked to in this area, it sounds like they have been able to lease the property from local landowners and didn't need to go through an intermediary.

HS: They probably had, they put, they probably put it in the children's name, who were citizens.

DG: So your parents leased property around Clarksburg?

HS: Yes, around Clarksburg and West Sacramento.

DG: And do you know who the landowner was?

HS: No idea.

DG: And what were they farming?

HS: Before the war, they were farming tomatoes, then they went into seed crops, onion seed, carrot seed, lettuce seeds.

DG: So does that mean you're growing the crop for seed? Or they were --

HS: They were growing for Ferry Morse Seed Company.

DG: And so they had tomatoes for canning?

HS: Yes, but, but at first they started out with tomatoes, 'cause you, it's, you can't, unless you're a big farmer, you can't do both.

DG: So then they were able to lease more land and do both?

HS: No, they didn't, they didn't, before the war, they didn't have a large acreage. I would say about twenty or so.

DG: Small. And just one area.

HS: In one area.

DG: Where in relation to the city of Clarksburg, or the town of Clarksburg?

HS: It was, you know where the Clarksburg Bridge is? Right there.

DG: On the west side of --

HS: Yeah, on the west.

DG: Okay.

HS: East side's the river. [Laughs]

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 2012 Densho and Preserving California's Japantowns. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

DG: And did you go to elementary school in Clarksburg?

HS: Just one year. Just one, and then the family moved to West Sacramento, so I went to the West Sacramento grammar school. Then back to Clarksburg High School, one year, then we went to camp.

DG: So you were a little child in Clarksburg, and then your family moved to West Sacramento?

HS: Uh-huh.

DG: Did they move their farm, or just the house?

HS: When they moved to, they never did own the house, so they moved to another house that, if they farmed the land, the house comes with it. It was a, more like a shack. [Laughs]

DG: What was it like?

HS: The house in West Sacramento? Just like a rundown shack. So my mother papered the walls with newspaper.

DG: Did, did you share a bedroom with your siblings?

HS: We all lived in the same room.

DG: It was just one big room.

HS: One big room, my mother and father, my brother and sister and I.

DG: And so there was a stove?

HS: Probably was a wood stove.

DG: An outhouse?

HS: Outhouse.

DG: An ofuro?

HS: Yes, outside.

DG: Did the kids keep the furo, did you have to do the fire for the furo?

HS: Yeah, underneath.

DG: Was that a job for children?

HS: That was one of our chores.

DG: What were the other chores?

HS: Well, we had to keep the yard clean, pulling the weeds, that sort of thing.

[Interruption]

Off camera: You were saying one of the things about...

HS: About the furo is, there was a girl named Christine Ogata, and to start the fire, she threw gas in it, and so that really burned her. And what, she had the presence of mind to roll on the ground, get in the car, and drive to where her parents were so that they could take her to the hospital. 'Course, she died. That's one of the hazards of the furo.

DG: Was this when you were a child? Do you remember that?

HS: I remember that. Went to the funeral.

DG: How old were you?

HS: Christine?

DG: No -- well, how old was she?

HS: How old was I? Well, I was in the younger grade school.

DG: How terrifying.

HS: Probably was in the second or third grade.

DG: So you lived in Clarksburg, and then you moved to West Sacramento. How did they differ? Was West Sacramento more, were there more people there? Was it more built up?

HS: Well, when I was in Clarksburg, being little, we didn't go out, if at all. And then in West Sacramento, we had to walk about three miles to school, 'cause buses didn't go on the dirt road.

DG: What was the name --

HS: Even if it rained. [Laughs]

DG: What was the name of your grade school?

HS: West Sacramento Grade School. West Sacramento Grade School, I think.

DG: And it was an integrated school? It wasn't --

HS: Oh yes. In fact, the school is still standing in West Sacramento. But it's not a school anymore; it's a, they made it into apartments.

DG: Really? What street is it on?

HS: It's the main road when you go to West, from West Sacramento to Sacramento. I'm not, I'm not familiar. It's not Jefferson. It's the one on the east side of Jefferson.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 2012 Densho and Preserving California's Japantowns. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

DG: So the farm in West Sacramento, was that when your parents were doing seed crops?

HS: Yes.

DG: And did you kids help in the fields?

HS: We did. During summer vacation we, 'cause that's harvest time, so we helped. To me, it was fun, more fun than going to school. We would, my mother and father would wake up early in the morning, like one o'clock in the morning, because that's when there's dew, and then when you cut, for instance, when you cut the lettuce crops for the seeds, it wouldn't fall.

DG: The seeds wouldn't fall.

HS: And then our job, as kids, we were in the wagon and then they would throw the bags of the cut lettuce tops to us and we'd just dump the bags and tromp on it. And what I remember about doing that was, from where we were, we could see the Tower Bridge, the lights on the Tower Bridge. I thought that was beautiful.

DG: And it was still dark.

HS: Oh yeah, 'cause they would wake up in the middle of the night to do it. As I mentioned earlier, if they waited until it got hot -- in the morning it got pretty hot too -- all the seeds would fall. If you shake it, it would just fall to the ground.

DG: That' so interesting. Did they ever have to hire additional help?

HS: During harvest, they did. My father would drive every morning to Third Street, where there were a lot of, well, unemployed hobos, I guess. [Laughs]

DG: Issei?

HS: Pardon?

DG: Were they Japanese Americans?

HS: No, they were Caucasians. And he would promise them a cup of wine, and that's how he got those laborers. [Laughs]

DG: So Third Street and where? Do you know where?

HS: It was Third Street, probably about on, let me see... well, Japanese Town, around there. I'm not too sure of the, whether it was before M Street or...

DG: So that was kind of the skid row area?

HS: Probably.

DG: And it was next to Japantown. So he'd be able to get some people to come just for a glass of wine?

HS: Well, that was an incentive for them. But we had to pick them up every morning and bring them back, 'cause they had no transportation.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2012 Densho and Preserving California's Japantowns. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

DG: So the, so you said you did not go to Japanese school?

HS: I did not in Clarksburg, but --

DG: Did you go --

HS: -- but when, in West Sacramento, went a few years in the Sacramento Japanese school. That was just one day a week.

DG: On Saturdays?

HS: I think it was on Saturday.

DG: And where was it?

HS: I'm not sure of the address, but it was just out of Sacramento.

DG: In the teacher's home?

HS: No, there was a regular school there.

DG: And was it...

HS: It was a one room school.

DG: And it was, would it have been known as the West Sacramento...

HS: Japanese school.

DG: Japanese school?

HS: I'm not certain of that.

DG: How old were you when you went?

HS: I probably was in the first, second grade, so six or seven.

DG: And did your siblings go too?

HS: Yeah, we all went there.

DG: Just on Saturday.

HS: One day a week.

DG: What do you remember about that school?

HS: All I remember was that it was really cold. They didn't have any heating system, but they did have a wood-burning stove. And then I guess the teacher felt sorry for me, so he moved me right next to the stove, and I felt so isolated I started crying, so he moved me back to the regular seats. [Laughs]

DG: How many kids would you say were at that school?

HS: How many children were at that school?

DG: Uh-huh.

HS: I'd say between twenty and thirty.

DG: All the way through high school?

HS: Well, as I mentioned, I didn't go there for more than a year or two.

DG: But were there, like --

HS: Well, one teacher taught the whole, from first to eighth grade, I guess.

DG: I see. Were there other activities at that school? Picnics? Any other kind of community gatherings?

HS: I don't recall that there were.

DG: You were so young.

HS: If there were, we didn't go to them.

DG: And so you only went for a couple years in early grade school?

HS: Uh-huh.

DG: Did you stop because, why did you stop?

HS: Probably because we moved and it was too far to go.

DG: Where did you move then?

HS: In West Sacramento, but you know, seven, eight, about, a few miles away from there.

DG: So to another farm.

HS: Yes.

DG: And your parents continued to do the seed farming?

HS: Yes, they continued to do the seed crops.

DG: And, okay, and so you went to school in West Sacramento, then you said you went back to Clarksburg for high school?

HS: One year. I think it was one year.

DG: Your family moved back to Clarksburg in '40 or '41?

HS: Well, before camp we were in West Sacramento. And then we moved back there, right. We moved back to Clarksburg. [Laughs] It was such a short time.

DG: But you started high school there.

HS: Yeah, just one year.

DG: Any other questions about childhood occurring to either of you?

JS: So did you spend a lot of time in Sacramento's Japantown?

HS: Did I spend a lot of time in Japantown? Only to go shopping with my father, that's all.

DG: Did you --

HS: They had Japanese movies, so the parents used to take us. And I hated it because they, we sat upstairs and everybody smoked. It just made me sick.

DG: So that was a theater in Japantown?

HS: Yes.

DG: Did you go to a church?

HS: I didn't go at the time.

DG: Your family didn't, wasn't...

HS: Well, I guess they were too busy to go to church. They worked almost 24/7.

DG: Yeah. So any other...

JS: Not for Sacramento. When you moved back to Clarksburg, do you remember that? Can you talk about that, moving back, right before the war?

HS: Right before the war?

JS: Yeah, what grade were you in?

HS: I was a freshman.

JS: Were you glad to be back? Did you see old friends from before? It had been a, kind of a long time, right?

HS: You mean, come back to Clarksburg?

JS: Yes.

HS: After camp?

JS: No, before. When you were a freshman.

HS: Well, I mean, it didn't mean one thing or another to me. Too dumb to know. [Laughs]

DG: No, it's just, when you're a kid you pay attention to different things.

JS: Yeah.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2012 Densho and Preserving California's Japantowns. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

DG: So now we'll ask you some questions about the war period. Do you remember hearing about Pearl Harbor and where you were?

HS: I was at home when Pearl Harbor was attacked.

DG: And how did you hear about it?

HS: I don't know if it was by radio or from neighbors... but we heard about it.

DG: And did, did people in this area have to give up cameras or radios?

HS: Right, all those were contrabands, and so what my mother did was she -- well, we had to turn them in, and...

DG: In Sacramento?

HS: Wherever, wherever it was. All those contrabands had to be turned in. We couldn't own them. And then, so my mother didn't want the authorities to think that she was loyal to Japan, so she burned all the correspondence and pictures and everything, which was sad 'cause we don't have those pictures, photographs.

DG: Of their families.

HS: Uh-huh. I think other families did the same thing.

DG: I know, but we haven't asked anybody and nobody's brought it up in these interviews. Were you there when she was burning those things?

HS: Yes, I was.

DG: That must've been very heartbreaking.

HS: Yeah, for my parents it was.

DG: And as it became clear that all Japanese Americans were going to be forced to leave, do you remember how your parents tried to make arrangements for their farm equipment or your possessions?

HS: Well, we didn't have anything that was that valuable. Farm equipment, they stored in my cousin's place because my cousin owned their own place.

DG: Who were our cousins?

HS: Who? Nishimura.

DG: Nishimura. So did you socialize with them? Like would the families get together?

HS: Yeah, we'd... yeah, on occasion.

DG: And where was their farm?

HS: In West Sacramento.

DG: So your parents were able to store things on their property.

HS: At their home.

DG: And then --

HS: But a lot of the, I think not only happened to us but to most of the other families too, when they came back, it's all stolen, vandalized.

DG: And that happened to your cousin's property?

HS: Yeah. Not everything, but...

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2012 Densho and Preserving California's Japantowns. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

DG: So when your family was forced to leave, where, when was that and where did you go?

HS: You mean when, the first evacuation?

DG: Yeah.

HS: We went directly to Tule Lake. We didn't go to an assembly center.

DG: And your whole family was together?

HS: Yes.

DG: Were your cousins too?

HS: Yes.

DG: And what, so you were fourteen? A young teenager.

HS: About that, about that age. Thirteen, fourteen.

DG: What do you remember about that day and the trip? How did it happen?

HS: On the day that we left? Well, I felt bad for my parents 'cause I know they were devastated.

DG: Did it, did you go to a train station?

HS: Pardon?

DG: Was it on a train?

HS: Yes, a rickety old train.

DG: From Sacramento?

HS: We got on at, I think it was in Freeport, I'm not too sure.

DG: And it took you to Tule Lake, or Klamath Falls.

HS: Tule Lake. And they pulled all the blinds down.

DG: So you didn't know where you were going.

HS: Nope.

DG: How long of a train trip would that be, six hours?

HS: Seemed way more than that.

JS: You said you knew your family, your parents were devastated. Can you describe, like, how you could tell what was going on or how they were feeling? Did they show, express their feelings?

HS: Well, it was a time of hardship.

JS: Right.

DG: And your father's --

HS: You know, working all those years, you're trying to get ahead, and then all of a sudden, boom, everything's lost. And it was pretty sad for my father too, because they worked hard and all the money that he was making, most of it that he was making, he had to send to his grandfather in Japan to pay off his debts. I think that's what a lot of Isseis did. They sent their earnings to Japan to pay off debts.

DG: To pay off his grandfather's debts?

HS: My grandfather was honsho -- you know what honsho -- he was leader in the community, and what he did was he cosigned the loans, and then when the loans went bad, he lost everything. So my father had to send the money to pay off those loans.

DG: I haven't heard that. Wow.

HS: He did. My mother said he kept a record of every cent he sent. Never did get, never did get it back.

DG: No wonder you guys were struggling so hard.

HS: But they didn't, they were working so hard, they didn't show us how bad it was. In those days, we were happy-go-lucky.

DG: So how old was your father in 1942? Was he middle-aged?

HS: I think he was, I'd say, I think my mother was about thirty-five, fourteen, so he was over fifty.

DG: So what are your memories of Tule Lake?

HS: Well, as a kid, I had fun. [Laughs] I mean, lifelong friends.

DG: What were the --

HS: Still have them.

DG: Really?

HS: Uh-huh.

DG: What was fun? What did you do that was fun there?

HS: Well, if you weren't going to school, we just played around, get into trouble. [Laughs] But it was, for us, it was fun. But as I said, I felt sorry for my mom and pop, because they were worried about the future, what was going to happen.

DG: Did they have jobs in camp?

HS: My father worked in the mess hall as a cook, and my mother worked in the hospital laundry. And she loved her work in the hospital because the food was better there than in our mess halls. [Laughs]

DG: They had a different cafeteria in the hospital?

HS: Well, different cooks, I guess, and then probably the food was better, more appetizing for the patients.

DG: Did any of you ever need to go to that hospital?

HS: I did. I had my tonsils out when I went there. That was a terrible time because for anesthetics they'd give you ether. They thought I would never wake up. [Laughs]

DG: And so you, did you finish high school in Tule Lake?

HS: Yes. We went out in September of '45. I didn't attend the graduation ceremonies because that was before the ceremony, but the, they did send us our diplomas.

DG: And...

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2012 Densho and Preserving California's Japantowns. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

JS: So you left early? Where did you go, in 1945, where did you go?

HS: First we relocated to Utah. Roy, it was a cannery in Roy, Utah, and we, there we peeled tomatoes alongside German war prisoners.

DG: The whole family went?

HS: Uh-huh.

DG: Literally alongside?

HS: Yep, literally alongside the German war prisoners.

DG: Did you, did you communicate? Did the prisoners of war and...

HS: Well, we couldn't speak German, they couldn't speak English, but we did communicate some way or other.

JS: How did you find out about the work there? Were they recruiting people from Tule Lake?

HS: Yes. A representative from the cannery came into Tule Lake and promised us living quarters and a job and all that. But when we went there, we had to live in a tent right next to the railroad station, next to the railroad tracks, and so every time the rail, the train passed by, the ground would shake. Lost a lot of sleep then.

DG: So all five of you were in one tent?

HS: Right, right, in one tent, dirt floor. That's what --

DG: Through the winter?

HS: They promised us housing, but that's what we got.

DG: And how long did you stay there?

HS: About a year. One season.

DG: So you lived in that tent through the winter, in Utah.

HS: Yeah.

DG: That sounds very cold.

HS: It was.

DG: What was the name of the cannery? Do you remember?

HS: Roy. No, Varney. It was in, Varney company was in Roy.

DG: Utah. And there were other families from Tule Lake who came?

HS: Who went to the... yes, my, let's see, I think my cousins went with us.

DG: The cousins from Clarksburg.

HS: Uh-huh. No, it was a family friend. My cousins went back to their own home.

DG: So, I know that for people who were your age in camp, there are a lot of pleasant memories. There was free time, you were with people your own age, there were, there was fun that you described. So to go, then, to living in a tent, working in this cannery, after you've had this fun filled time with other teenagers, that sounds like...

HS: It was a big change. [Laughs]

DG: Yeah.

HS: And I swore I would never eat anything made out of tomatoes. [Laughs] Even ketchup, which was the worst.

DG: How were your parents?

HS: How old were they?

DG: No, I mean, how, do you remember how they felt about this?

HS: Well, they just accepted it. What else can they do?

DG: And did, do you think that they planned to come back to California? They saw this is just until...

HS: I think so. My father didn't have any intention of going back to Japan at all. A lot of them did, and came back.

DG: So just, back to Tule Lake a little, so Tule Lake has such a different history than the other camps.

HS: It was notorious.

DG: Yeah. What do you remember about the politics and the tension and the fighting?

[Interruption]

HS: What was your question?

DG: I was asking about the atmosphere at Tule Lake. We've read about --

HS: We lived in Block 4, which, there were mostly Oregonians and Washingtonians, very few from Sacramento, and so Block 4 wasn't noted for raising trouble or anything. It was right close to the administration building.

DG: Did your family consider leaving Tule Lake? You know how the people who were first assigned to Tule Lake, once it became a segregation center, could go to another camp.

HS: Yeah, they could relocate to another camp, but my father didn't want to move anymore. He knew, he knew that the war wasn't going to last forever, so we just stuck it out.

DG: And your brothers were older. Did, do you know how they answered the "loyalty questions"?

HS: Well, my brother and I were young, so we didn't have to. I don't know how my sister voted, I mean, on that.

DG: Any more Tule Lake? Did you see other Clarksburg people there? Clarksburg or West Sacramento?

HS: A few families.

DG: Wait, did people from West Sacramento go to Tule Lake, or did they go somewhere else?

HS: Well, some of 'em went to Tule Lake. I guess it depended on where you lived.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2012 Densho and Preserving California's Japantowns. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

DG: So after the cannery in Roy, Utah, where did your family move next?

HS: My family moved, my mother and father and brother moved to Idaho to work in the potato shed, which I hear is backbreaking work. And my sister and I went to Utah, did housework, and then from Utah we went to Los Angeles to do childcare work.

DG: So when you say your sister and you were in Utah, you went to Salt Lake City?

HS: Salt Lake City?

DG: And how did you find those jobs?

HS: Must've been through a friend.

DG: Did you each, were you each live-in...

HS: Yes, live-in. It was good because my sister lived in the house right next door.

DG: And how were those families? Did they treat you okay?

HS: Yeah.

DG: How long did you do that?

HS: Think it was about a year. I remember when I, when my mother and father dropped me off, to where I was supposed to work, to do domestic, I just sat on the stairs and just cried and cried, hoping they would take me back home.

DG: I bet. So you were about nineteen, eighteen?

HS: No, I was probably seventeen. Sixteen, seventeen. I graduated high school earlier.

DG: So they drove you and dropped you off.

HS: Uh-huh.

DG: And then they went on to Colorado, you say?

HS: No, Idaho.

DG: Idaho. With your brother.

HS: Uh-huh.

DG: And so when you did the live-in domestic work, what were your tasks?

HS: Cook, clean house, vacuum every morning, every day.

DG: Did you know how to cook?

HS: No. [Laughs] Sure learned fast. I remember one morning I was supposed to, she had guests for breakfast and she gave me a lot of bacon to cook, so I put it underneath the broiler and it came out black. [Laughs] Never forget that.

DG: So you had to teach yourself on the job. Were there children in the house?

HS: Daughter and a son. They were young kids. They were very nice to me.

DG: Were you also taking care of them?

HS: Yes.

DG: And what was your sister's situation? Similar?

HS: Yeah, my sister was doing similar work, right next door.

DG: Do you have any other memories of Salt Lake City? Did you have time off?

HS: I think we had every other Thursday off.

DG: And what would you do then?

HS: We'd just take a bus, which was, I think it was ten cents fare, and go downtown and maybe go to a movie.

DG: Were there other Nisei in Salt Lake City that you met? Or was it just you and your sister?

HS: Just myself and my sister.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2012 Densho and Preserving California's Japantowns. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

DG: So you said then you went to Los Angeles.

HS: From there to Los Angeles.

DG: Both of you?

HS: Both of us.

DG: And how did you find the work in L.A.?

HS: Our friend had gone there before us, and then she called us. So we lived with our friend in Los Angeles for maybe a month or so, and then we each worked in a home, childcare. My sister worked for O'Connors, Frank O'Connor. He was a producer on the Jack Benny Show. And I worked in Beverly Hills for Jerry Wald. I don't know if you're familiar with him or not, but he won the, his, one of his movies won the Academy Award, Johnny Belinda. Have you seen it? Yeah, he produced that. And he produced a lot of others too.

DG: So the friend who called you and your sister and said, "There are jobs here," was she a friend from Sacramento, Clarksburg, Tule Lake?

HS: She was a friend, old family friend. My parents and her parents were, came from the same area in Japan.

DG: Okay, so then you're living in Beverly Hills. [Laughs]

JS: After the tent.

HS: That was really a fun time, for me.

DG: Yeah. Do you remember the name of the street that you lived on?

HS: Beverly Hills Drive, North Beverly Hills. In fact, I still communicate with the family.

DG: And their name was Wald?

HS: Yeah, Jerry Wald, Connie and Jerry Wald.

DG: So they had children and your responsibility was to take care of the children?

HS: Yeah, just play with 'em.

DG: How old were the kids?

HS: Bobby was just born, and -- no, Angela was just born and Bobby was about four, I think.

Off camera: Why was it so fun for you? What was fun?

HS: Why was it fun?

Off camera: Why was it fun?

HS: Well, I didn't have to work hard. And they were very nice to me. In fact, they treated me as one of their own. I don't think I did much work. [Laughs]

DG: So you lived in the house.

HS: Uh-huh.

DG: It was probably a nice house.

HS: Very nice. It's on, as I said, on North Beverly Drive. Do you watch... one of the TV shows, I can't remember the name of it, but the frontage on the house looks exactly like theirs.

DG: And where was your sister's job? Close?

HS: No, she lived in Hollywood, downtown Hollywood.

DG: Did you, and how, so you said in Salt Lake City you had one day a week off. What was your time off like in Los Angeles? Do you remember?

HS: I know we had, it was still probably Thursdays off, and maybe every other weekend.

DG: Do you, what would you do then?

HS: Well, we would take a bus, go downtown, Griffith Park.

DG: Did you ever go to Little Tokyo?

HS: I don't recall going to Little Tokyo again.

DG: It was different then. Or West L.A.?

JS: Sawtelle?

HS: There was a social worker there that would take care of us, give us some activities to do every, on our day offs.

DG: And where was that social worker? In Los --

HS: In Los Angeles.

DG: So they were helping, like, re-acclimate Nikkei.

HS: Uh-huh.

DG: What kind of activities? Do you remember?

HS: She'd take us to the park and she... we did all kinds of things.

DG: Were there dances?

HS: No, I don't remember going to dances.

DG: Did you ever go to the beach?

HS: Yes, we did.

DG: Do you remember which beach?

HS: Santa Monica.

JS: So was she the one that helped find the jobs for you? Or she just was...

HS: No, she's, the one that found was my friend.

JS: Your friend.

HS: Uh-huh, in Los Angeles, because she went out first.

JS: I see. Do you, was there, was it like a club, like a young women's club or something, that you joined?

HS: Yes.

JS: Do you remember the name?

HS: Of the lady?

JS: Uh-huh. And of the club.

HS: You know, I can't think of her name. She was very nice.

DG: Did you ever get to go to the, to a movie set, or the studios? Like to see the, what your...

HS: Yeah, we did. I recall going to Warner Brothers. I think Jerry Wald was with Warner Brothers at the time. I think.

DG: Do you remember ever talking with them about camp and what your family had just been through? Did, do you remember whether...

HS: No, I didn't.

DG: And they didn't ask, probably.

HS: They probably didn't ask.

DG: How long were you there?

HS: Let's see, '48, probably a couple of years.

DG: So you became a young woman by then, in L.A. You were probably in your early twenties, like just over twenty?

HS: Probably before twenty, because when I started working for the state I became twenty.

DG: And where was that?

HS: State? In Sacramento.

DG: So what made you leave working for the Walds? How did that end?

HS: I think my parents called me home. They needed us... I'm trying to remember.

DG: So your sister and you moved back at the same time?

HS: No, I did, but she stayed on for a while. And her family was very nice to her. One of the children that she took care of comes to see her, even now.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2012 Densho and Preserving California's Japantowns. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

DG: So you came back because your parents asked you to, but you didn't work on the farm. Or did you work on the --

HS: I did for a while, I think just one year or so. And I thought, "Oh, I can't do this." You know, it's backbreaking. So I applied for a state job.

DG: And were the, were your parents farming in Clarksburg again?

HS: Yeah, they were in, they were either in Clarksburg or West Sacramento. I think they were in West Sacramento at the time.

DG: And what, do you remember what they were growing? Did it change after the war?

HS: No, they still grew seed crops. No, wait a minute. When they came back they grew tomatoes, sugar beets.

DG: And was your brother there with them?

HS: Yes. They're, in the sugar beet harvest they didn't have, mostly it was done by hand. You dig it up and you chop it, throw it into a truck. And then my job was to drive the bobtail to the factory. I don't know how I did it. [Laughs]

DG: Do you, so when they came back, so you went to Utah, they went to Idaho. Did your parents move from Idaho back to Clarksburg?

HS: Yes.

DG: And were they, do you know what it was like when they came back?

HS: Well, they didn't have a place of their own, so they stayed with my cousins for a while, then they found a house of their own.

DG: And a farm.

HS: A house that came with land that they farmed.

DG: And either in West Sacramento or Clarksburg.

HS: It was in West Sacramento.

DG: And so you did that for about a year.

HS: They...

DG: You did it for about a year and then said, "I don't want to do this anymore."

HS: Uh-huh.

DG: So how did you know there were jobs at the state that would hire you?

HS: Well, I guess I heard it, other people working for the state. Because there were a lot before camp, before evacuation, working for the state, who were laid off.

DG: And what kind of a job did you get?

HS: Well, I started out as a junior clerk, and then I --

DG: In what department?

HS: It was the employment. And then I retired as a staff services manager.

DG: So you stayed there.

HS: Uh-huh.

DG: And did you live, did you continue to live with your parents on the farm for a while?

HS: No. For a while, but, a year or so, when I was in Beverly Hills working for the Walds, one of their friends was Kay Thompson -- I don't know whether you know her or not -- and she had an act with the Williams brothers, the four Williams brothers -- you know, Andy Williams just passed away -- and that's how... after meeting them, Kay Thompson took her act all over the place, and so I traveled with her.

DG: This is... wait, when did you do that?

HS: It was in, before 1950, because 1950, I said I started working for the state about 1950. Yeah.

DG: So this is before you moved back to be with your family?

HS: Well, when I had come back, when I returned, I got a call from Kay Thompson that she wanted me to work with her. So I did.

DG: So you got to travel around.

HS: Yeah.

DG: Where did you go?

HS: Well, went to Boston, Rhode Island, New York.

DG: And what did you do? What was your job?

HS: My job was secretary.

DG: Was that fun?

HS: Yeah.

DG: Was she nice to you?

HS: Oh, very nice. Very, very nice. You know, she's the godmother to Liza Minnelli.

DG: Wow. So you toured the East Coast with her.

HS: Well, wherever she was playing, performing. But after that she -- she had a real good act, real smart.

DG: Can you describe what she would do? Was she -- I mean, I've heard her name, but I don't know what she did. What was her act?

HS: Well, she wrote her own act. It was dancing and singing, real fast. You just can't get bored watching it. And I remember when she was performing at Cyril's -- I don't know if you remember Cyril's, maybe it's still there -- the same people would come, night after night, because that's how good she was.

DG: So how long did you do that, tour with her?

HS: I think about a year.

DG: You've had quite an interesting experience.

HS: But, so I was communicating with her and Andy Williams and so I was really sorry when Andy passed away.

DG: Yeah. It was nice hearing him sing, though, on the show, on the TV.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2012 Densho and Preserving California's Japantowns. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

DG: So after that, you then came back to Sacramento and started working for the state?

HS: Uh-huh.

DG: First as a clerk. And was it always in the employment department?

HS: Yes, but I worked for the unemployment insurance appeals board. That's quasi-judicial work, and what we did was conduct hearings for claimants whose appeals were denied.

DG: Was that in --

HS: Whose claims were denied, so they appealed to, to the higher authority.

DG: And what did you do as part of that? What was your job?

HS: Well, as manager, seemed like I did everything. [Laughs] I had to, we had about eleven or twelve appeals offices up and down the state, and so I would have to conduct meetings for the supervisors, any time.

DG: So you managed all of those?

HS: Pardon?

DG: You managed all of those?

HS: Yep.

DG: Wow. You must've dealt with a lot of angry people. Were the people who were --

HS: My work was managing the appeals offices located up and down the state. I didn't actually meet the claimants.

DG: Got it.

HS: But we did got a lot of nasty letters from claimants. [Laughs] And you know, I felt sorry for them, because they were hard up.

DG: Yeah, you knew what that was like. So when did you start that work, in the '50s?

HS: Yes, I guess it was '60s.

DG: And that's what you retired from?

HS: Uh-huh.

DG: So how long --

HS: I retired from the unemployment insurance appeals board.

DG: And when did you retire?

HS: 1994.

DG: So you did that a long time.

HS: Yep, about forty-four years.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2012 Densho and Preserving California's Japantowns. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

DG: And while you were doing that, your parents were still farming?

HS: Farming.

DG: And they continued to farm, can you describe what they were... in West Sacramento?

HS: Well, in West Sacramento, and then they moved back to Clarksburg. They bought about twenty acres in Clarksburg.

DG: And what did they farm there?

HS: They started out farming tomatoes. It was, when they first started, it was virgin soil. Tomato wasn't grown there ever before, and so the first year it was a beautiful crop. When you drove along the road, the whole field was yellow with blossoms.

DG: Twenty acres. So, but tomato you can't keep growing, right? In the same...

HS: You have to alternate, uh-huh. So they also grew sugar beets.

DG: I see.

HS: And my brother, one year my brother got an award from the sugar beet factory for growing the best sugar beets.

DG: So he stayed with your parents.

HS: Yes.

DG: And continued to farm that acreage. Where in Clarksburg was that? What road?

HS: The River Road. South River Road.

DG: Is it where you are now?

HS: Yes.

DG: And is the acreage still farmed?

HS: It's in grapes now. The whole area is almost all in grapes.

DG: Right. Is your brother still living?

HS: Yes.

DG: Does he live with you?

HS: No, he lives about, about a mile away. He lives in the town of Clarksburg, on South School Street.

DG: So as your parents farmed that twenty acres, were they able to get ahead? You were saying before the war they were trying to get ahead, and then everything gets taken away from them. When they came back and they were farming that farm --

HS: Well, you know, they were very frugal. They didn't spend anything, no luxuries at all.

DG: But they were making some money. So they had a little more security?

HS: I guess they were making some money. I'm not sure. [Laughs] I know we were very frugal. We didn't spend a dime on anything that we didn't need.

DG: Did your brother have a family? Did he marry?

HS: He's married now, yes. He went to Japan to be married. It was an arranged marriage, so he went to Japan to get married, then they both came back.

DG: And when was that?

HS: It must've been about 1960s, thereabouts.

DG: Was that unusual at that time?

HS: No, I don't think so. The relatives, my mother's relatives in Japan, had arranged the marriage.

DG: And so then she moved back with him.

HS: Uh-huh.

DG: Is she still living?

HS: Yes.

DG: Did you and she become close?

HS: Well, she's my sister-in-law. [Laughs]

DG: [Laughs] Well, that can mean --

HS: But she's, but she speaks Japanese, a little English -- she picked up a lot of English -- and then I speak English, very little Japanese. So she has her circle of friends, I have my circle of friends. She's a very good cook, a very good artist. In fact, everything she does is real good, perfect. She's, I don't know if you know her or not, Ikuko Sakazaki?

JS: I think I met her. So she was one of --

HS: Very talented.

JS: She was the one, I saw her name with the Holland Doshi Kai record. So she's part of the club.

HS: Yes.

JS: She was part of the club. When did she marry your brother, about what year?

HS: Did I say 1950?

DG: You said '60.

HS: '60.

JS: '60s.

HS: I guess 1960.

DG: So did you participate in the Holland Doshi Kai?

HS: No.

DG: But your brother --

HS: All I went was to the parties, but I didn't help much. Occasionally we had to clean the place; that's when I went, participate, help scrub the floors. Took me a whole day just to scrub the bathroom. [Laughs]

DG: So, but your brother and sister-in-law were active?

HS: Yes.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2012 Densho and Preserving California's Japantowns. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

Off camera: But I think that, I think you guys, one question is to go back to Clarksburg when you were, moved back there for your freshman year of high school. Moving from West Sacramento back to Clarksburg, did you feel...

HS: I went from Clarksburg to West Sacramento.

Off camera: And then back to West, then back to Clarksburg for your freshman year, right?

DG: Of high school.

HS: No, no. Oh yeah, I went my freshman year to high school, you're right.

Off camera: Right, right. What were your experiences there going to, going to school? I mean, you moved back and forth. Were people like, you were, did you feel like you were a Clarksburg person or a West Sacramento person? Were you kind of kept out of social circles a bit when you were in school? Do you know what I mean?

HS: It was such a small community, you still had your usual friends.

Off camera: You did. And what would you guys do socially, that freshman year in Clarksburg?

HS: Nothing much.

Off camera: So you didn't, you didn't go to the, there's Tom's Corner, things, something like this where you go to the fountain, or... you guys, you're pretty much going to school and working with your folks.

HS: Uh-huh.

Off camera: It sounds like you would have, like, a very full schedule in terms of not, not a lot of free time to do things on your own. Was that, do you feel like that was typical for kids like yourself growing up in Clarksburg?

HS: I think so. We weren't always working.

Off camera: What were you doing when you were not working?

HS: Well, since we were kids, we'd play around. [Laughs]

Off camera: Yeah. What did you enjoy doing? [HS leans in] What did you enjoy doing at that time?

HS: When I was a kid?

Off camera: Yeah.

HS: Just playing around with friends.

DG: Did you like to read?

HS: Yes.

JS: Did you swim?

HS: Pardon?

JS: Go swimming?

HS: I never did learn to swim. When I was, let's see, when I was doing domestic, had a swimming pool, and the first thing that happened when I jumped in was I sunk to the bottom. [Laughs] I don't know how people float.

DG: This was in Los Angeles? That was in L.A.?

HS: In L.A.

Off camera: So your parents didn't, when you went back to Clarksburg, they didn't want you going to the language school?

HS: Did I go back to language school after I came back to Clarksburg?

Off camera: Yeah, for freshman year.

HS: No.

Off camera: But a lot, probably a lot of your friends were going, right?

HS: Most likely.

Off camera: And what was that like? Was that, was there ever a question of why you, why weren't you coming along as well?

HS: Why, why wasn't...

Off camera: Why do you think your parents didn't want you going and other parents did want their kids going?

HS: To go to Japanese school?

Off camera: Yeah.

HS: It's not that they didn't want us to go. I don't think that, it was probably financial more than anything else.

DG: 'Cause you had to pay for the teacher, right?

HS: I'm sure, I'm sure they had, yeah. Teachers have to be paid. But I'm attending Japanese school now.

DG: You are? Where?

HS: Where? At the Asian Community Nursing Home -- or Asian Community Center.

DG: That's great.

Off camera: I've got something. Were there other kids like, I mean, how many other families were like you, that they weren't sending their kids to the language school even though --

HS: I'm not aware of that.

Off camera: You're not aware. And what, if you could've afforded it, would you have wanted to go?

HS: Not really.

Off camera: Yeah? Why not?

HS: Well, as a kid, you'd rather play instead of study. I hope I was normal then. [Laughs]

DG: Yeah, sounds like you were.

Off camera: Yeah, yeah, that's very normal.

DG: So there were some Japanese American teams in the area, boys' sports teams. Did your brother participate in any of those, or was that also a financial barrier?

HS: We just didn't have the time. Probably financial too, 'cause my father would probably have to take off work and bring him wherever.

DG: Yeah.

HS: We made up our own games.

JS: When we talked on the phone you said you were in Utah, in Los Angeles, and then you came home. So what do you claim as home?

HS: Clarksburg is home. When I left, I came back from Clarksburg, wasn't long after that that Kay Thompson called me back to work for her in New York, Boston and Rhode Island.

JS: So you must have fond memories of Clarksburg from your early days, because that's where you think of as home, even though you moved around.

HS: Yeah.

DG: What did your parents think of you leaving and going with this entertainer, traveling around?

HS: I really don't know, but I, it was, my mother had called me back home when Kay Thompson was, and the troupe were going to France and England, London, to perform. She didn't want me to travel, so I came home.

DG: Oh.

HS: I didn't want to go either.

DG: You didn't?

HS: No.

DG: How come?

HS: I think had enough of show business.

DG: [Laughs] What got tiresome for you?

HS: Pardon?

DG: What were you tired of?

HS: Show business?

DG: Yeah, what aspect?

HS: Well, I guess I missed home. I probably missed home more than anything else. But I, thankful that I had the experience, because I really met a lot of well noted, known people, well known people. Including George C. Marshall.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2012 Densho and Preserving California's Japantowns. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

JS: Can you describe what home means to you?

HS: In Clarksburg?

JS: Like what does that mean?

HS: Well, typical home where the family is together and do things together.

DG: Did your family have New Year's together?

HS: Yes.

DG: Did you do mochitsuki?

HS: We used to celebrate New Year's with my cousin's family and our friend, close friends.

DG: Did you do mochitsuki?

HS: Oh yes. In fact, I think my father used to buy a hundred pound sack of mochigome, and pound it. And then we'd have to spread it on the floor. And to keep from getting molded -- you know, with a hundred pounds of mochi -- what they did to preserve it was to place it in the buckets of water. Otherwise it'd get molded.

DG: Somebody's phone's...

JS: I think that's yours.

DG: I turned it off. Sorry, we were hearing another noise. I can't think of any other questions. Can you, David? Heidi, thank you so much.

HS: You're welcome.

DG: You have had a very interesting life.

JS: Yes.

DG: Very unusual.

HS: I'm busier than ever now. [Laughs]

DG: Really? You're studying Japanese. What else are you doing?

HS: Well, I just came back from meeting ITC. I don't know whether you've heard of that or not? It's International Training in Communication.

DG: And what do you...

HS: Well, they teach communication skills and leadership skills.

DG: Wow. To, and then what would you do with that? International work?

HS: Well, they have an international convention every other year, and then... 'cause next year is going to be in Hawaii. But I don't think I'll go because I hate to fly.

DG: Yeah. Wow.

JS: So people from all over the world come?

HS: Oh yes. They have the most attendance from Japan.

JS: Do you --

HS: I think Japan has the most clubs.

JS: Do you help with interpreting? Or do you --

HS: Pardon?

JS: Do you help as an interpreter? With the Japanese, do you work with the Japanese that come or host?

HS: They speak English, better English than we do. [Laughs]

DG: And your brother, what's he doing now?

HS: He's retired. After farming, he worked for the school.

DG: Clarksburg?

HS: In Clarksburg.

DG: What did he do?

HS: He was the groundskeeper. And he, even though he was the groundskeeper, I think he did everything else. Middle of the night, he'd get a phone call if the alarm would go off accidentally.

DG: And what's his name?

HS: Shoya. S-H-O-Y-A.

DG: So he might be good to talk to. Would he be interested in talking to us, if we were to come back, do you think?

HS: I don't know, because he has a little dementia now.

DG: I'm sorry to hear that.

HS: Yeah.

DG: Well, thank you so much.

HS: You're welcome.

DG: That was really enjoyable.

HS: Thank you for having me.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright © 2012 Densho and Preserving California's Japantowns. All Rights Reserved.