Densho Digital Archive - Toshiko Sakata Interview

Densho Digital Archive
Preserving California's Japantowns Collection
Title: Toshiko Sakata Interview
Narrator: Toshiko Sakata
Interviewers: Donna Graves (primary); Jill Shiraki (secondary)
Location: West Sacramento, California
Date: October 2, 2012
Densho ID: denshovh-stoshiko-01

[Correct spelling of certain names, words and terms used in this interview have not been verified.]

<Begin Segment 1>

JS: Okay, can you tell you us your name?

TS: Yeah, my name is Toshiko Shimada.

JS: And where and when were you born?

TS: I was born in April 29, 1925, in Clarksburg, California.

JS: Okay. And can you tell me the names of your parents and siblings?

TS: My parents are Sadami Shimada, mother Yoshiko Shimada, and I had two brothers, Jim and Dave Shimada. My sister came -- I had a sister, but my sister came from Japan after the war. She was born over there.

JS: Okay. Can you tell me when the Shimadas came to California, your parents? Or grandparents?

TS: Gosh, that's a long time ago. Well, my father came, I can't tell you the year, but he came first and worked a little bit, and then he went back and got my mother, and brought her back. And they lived in, not in Clarksburg, they lived in a town called Escalon that's near Modesto. Yeah.

DG: So had they been married in Japan and had a girl?

TS: Yeah. And she wanted to bring her back, but she couldn't bring her. Well, they weren't, they didn't know what they were gonna do in America yet, so they left her with our grandfather and so she grew up in Japan, went to school there and grew up, and then after the war... well, before the war, I guess, or during the war, she married somebody in the same place and then she had two kids, a boy and a girl. And then after the war, my father called her to come to America to start a living, so they came to Stockton. Well, they were sponsored by Mr. Mizuno, I think it was. He used to go to Japan and pick up people to come to Stockton -- you know the island, Bacon Island? -- to work on the farm. And she never did such a thing, and it was hard, I'm sure, for her. But they stayed for a while, and then after they made enough money, well, they can leave, so they left Stockton and came to... they were living in Sacramento for a while, and he did gardening and this and that. Then they moved to San Francisco 'cause he was having a heart problem, so he was a photographer, or working in a photo place in San Francisco.

JS: So that's your sister's family.

TS: Yeah.

JS: I see. Where in Japan is your, the Shimadas from?

TS: Yamaguchi. Yeah. There's a lot of Japanese, Yamaguchi people here.

JS: So when did the Shimadas come to the Clarksburg area?

TS: That was before the war. I can't say what year it would be.

<Begin Segment 2>

DG: Where did you go to grammar school?

TS: Clarksburg Elementary.

DG: And that was a segregated school? Or... was that a segregated school? Or integrated?

TS: No, well, in the old days, my father and them, he wasn't a citizen then, so he couldn't farm. They had to work for somebody, lease land from other people. So he didn't want to, he couldn't plant the same thing in the same place over and over, so we moved around quite a bit. We went from Clarksburg to Courtland, then come back to Clarksburg, another piece of ground, farm there. That's how most of 'em had to... unless they were, they had a piece of ground. But my father couldn't own the land until, he's one of those, he studied and became a citizen, later.

JS: So you went to Clarksburg Elementary, but then you also came and went to Courtland?

TS: Yeah, I was in Courtland segregated school for a while too. Yeah, and then came back.

JS: Can you talk about the difference in the two schools, or what your experience was, being in the integrated school and then being in the Oriental school?

TS: Yeah, it was all Asian people. And I thought that wasn't very good, you won't learn any. The Chinese people talked Chinese, Japanese talked Japanese. They're not gonna learn English that way. But then, we had no choice. And Clarksburg was good because they weren't segregated like that.

JS: So you Nisei students would speak Japanese to each other?

TS: No. I mean, we speak English.

JS: But you'd only talk to the other Japanese students?

TS: You mean...

DG: At the, at the Courtland Oriental school.

TS: No. The teacher stressed that. "You got to speak English." Yeah.

DG: But you made it sound as if the Chinese kids stuck together.

TS: Yeah, when they're outside, recess, they played with their own group.

JS: So there were Chinese. What other ethnic groups were at this school?

TS: It was mostly Chinese and Japanese. They didn't have no, like right now you have the Vietnamese or -- there was some Filipinos. They were Asian. I don't know, we just knew Chinese. I mean, didn't know the difference. But I don't think there was any other... like now, there's all kinds of Asian people here.

<Begin Segment 3>

JS: So your father leased land and then did, who helped him work on the farm? Did he hire workers?

TS: Well, yeah, I guess that's how it is. They work hard themselves, and my mother was out on the farm too. It was no big acreage like they do now, smaller acreage, so...

JS: Do you know what size acreage they had before the war?

TS: No, I don't know. It wasn't very much.

JS: And what did they grow?

TS: Well, he had tomatoes, always tomatoes. Yeah.

DG: And did, did he have to keep moving because his lease would be over?

TS: Yeah, the lease would be up, and then they didn't want to plant this tomato over and over. You can't plant the same crop over and over in the same place, so he'd have to go look for another land. Yeah.

DG: So he didn't try asparagus or anything.

TS: No, no, no, he didn't... it was always tomatoes.

DG: Toshiko, were you the oldest?

TS: Yeah, here. After my sister came from Japan, well, she's the oldest. But here, I was the oldest of the two brothers.

DG: And do you know where you were born? Were you born at home with a midwife? Or...

TS: I must've been, 'cause I was born in Clarksburg.

DG: Do you remember when your brothers were born?

TS: No.

<Begin Segment 4>

JS: Can you tell us a little bit about the Gakuen, Holland Union Gakuen? What do you remember about the school?

TS: We used to go every Saturday, and then the summertime, we had to go, we only had... well, we'd call it American school we went to, until June, and then all of June, all of July, we went to Japanese school every day, five days a week, and so we only had one month vacation, which we didn't care for then. Yeah, we only got one month.

JS: So when you went to Japanese school every day, it was all day, or how long?

TS: Yeah, from nine o'clock to two or three o'clock.

JS: And who was your teacher? Do you remember?

TS: Mr. and Mrs. Osaki. The daughter still lives in Yuba City someplace. I haven't seen her for ages. And the sons, well one of 'em, the oldest son died, but -- you probably heard of Yoshito?

JS: Uh-huh.

TS: Wayne, I think they call him Wayne. He was the second son. And then the younger one was Ayako, but she lives in Yuba City. Her husband just passed away, but, but they were, Mr. and Mrs. Osaki was the teacher. Well, there was, sometimes they'd hire another teacher, and so we had three teachers sometimes. There was a lot of, sometimes there was a lot students. Like this picture [points off camera], there were a lot of students.

JS: So what was your experience like going to the Japanese school? Did you enjoy it?

TS: Yeah, kind of enjoyed it. It was just like public school. Yeah, we had graduations and, and it was just like regular school. Yeah, but it was all, strictly Japanese.

JS: Do you remember, like the speech contest or some of the other activities you did?

TS: Oh yeah, our school was pretty strict with those things. The teacher had speech contests, and they used to compete all over.

JS: So they used to compete with other schools?

TS: Yeah, well, like Sacramento had, used to have Japanese school, and so they had a speaker from there. But, like in San Francisco, our speaker would go clear out to San Francisco.

JS: So how did that work? So you would have a speech contest at your school, and then you would have representatives from your school?

TS: Well, the teacher picks, you go. Yeah, we used to hate it. We had a speech, what do you call it, everybody had to get up, you got to get used to, be able to get up in public. So we had a, not a contest, but we had a...

DG: Recital like.

TS: Yeah. Once a year we had that, and we used to hate it. You know, getting up in front of people, and...

DG: Do you remember what your speech was about? What would you write your speech about?

TS: It could be anything. Yeah, it could be anything. So some people's speech, they speak long time, some people are short.

DG: Do you remember anything you gave a speech about?

TS: No, I can't remember that. It's been a long time ago.

<Begin Segment 5>

JS: As the oldest daughter, what were some of your responsibilities at home?

TS: Well, cooking or... 'cause Mother had to go work. Try to help, you know.

JS: What is the age difference between you and your younger siblings, your brothers?

TS: My brother's right under me, just a year apart, and the other one is, is it two or three years apart? Yeah.

DG: Did the three of you also help in the tomato fields?

TS: Well, I know my brother used to go pick up boxes. In those days, were boxes, so fifty pound, lug boxes. So they used, after school they used to go pick up those boxes. Yeah.

DG: How far away from the Gakuen did you live?

TS: Gee, that was, I'd say about thirteen miles.

DG: How did you get there?

TS: Our neighbor used to take us, or my father would take time and take us to school, then come back again at three o'clock and pick us up. And he was real strict with education, so we had to go. Like it or not, we had to go.

DG: Do you think it was really important to him that you learn how to speak and read Japanese?

TS: Yeah, I guess maybe someday we might have to go back, because my sister was there. And then we didn't own no land or nothing, so... but as the kids grew, or my brother and we grew up, well, they decided that, well, we better stay here and educate us.

JS: What other activities would happen at the Gakuen besides school?

TS: Like what?

JS: Like what did...

DG: Picnic, New Year's, movies?

TS: Yeah, sometimes they used to bring movies. In the old days they had black and white movies, once in a while. Yeah, but there's no entertainment, music entertainment or nothing like that, no.

DG: So how old were you when you started going to the Gakuen?

TS: When I, when we start grammar school, we all went to Japanese school. So I must've been, what, we start school when...

DG: Five.

JS: Five or six.

TS: Six or something like that, yeah.

DG: And then you did that until...

TS: Yeah, until the war broke out. It's a long --

DG: Were your, were your brothers part of the sports teams? The local...

TS: No. They were too young, so they didn't join, no. They used to have a baseball team, and that's about it, I guess, the baseball team. No basketball or nothing like that.

JS: Did you used to go to watch the baseball team?

TS: Yeah, we used to go watch it, yeah.

DG: Where did they play?

TS: They played against the other, like Sacramento or Florin or Lodi. They all had a team too.

DG: And were there baseball fields?

TS: Yeah, just like --

DG: In each place?

TS: Yeah, they all -- well, not in Clarksburg, but, well, they used, I know, I remember one time they used our Clarksburg High School field. Yeah, they had baseball all over.

<Begin Segment 6>

DG: So when you lived in Courtland, there wasn't a language school in Courtland?

TS: They did, but we didn't go to it.

DG: Where was that school?

TS: It was in, right in Courtland. There wasn't many people, I heard, not many students there. And some of 'em that lived in Courtland used to come to Clarksburg, Holland Japanese School.

DG: Did the one in Courtland have its own building, or was it at a church or somebody's house?

TS: No, I think they had a building by itself. I'm not too sure about Courtland. Yeah.

JS: So when you were living in Courtland, you still came to the Clarksburg Japanese school?

TS: Yeah, 'cause it was, we always went to Clarksburg, so... yeah, they were more active over there.

JS: And would you go into Sacramento for dinner or business?

TS: Well, we used to go shopping in Sacramento, yeah, groceries and...

DG: Did you ever go to the movies?

TS: Not very much, no. Lot of 'em couldn't afford it, anyway, so we didn't go.

DG: And were you part of a church?

TS: No, we didn't get to go to church. It was just too far and couldn't afford it, I guess.

DG: So your main community activity was to go to the Japanese school, where you saw other...

TS: Yeah, I guess so.

DG: Janet talks about picnics at the Japanese school. Did you used to --

TS: Yeah, they had that once a year.

DG: Once a year.

TS: Where everybody brings your own lunch, and get together and run or have races and all that. Yeah.

DG: And what about New Year's? Was there a New Year's party?

TS: I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't remember.

JS: Did you do mochitsuki?

TS: At home, yeah.

JS: At home.

TS: Well, like my cousins and I, our, us, we used to get together.

DG: So you would get together with your family, extended family.

TS: Yeah.

DG: Would you visit other people's houses?

TS: No, we didn't go.

JS: Did you take any, like odori or other...

TS: No.

JS: Nothing like that.

TS: No.

JS: How about sewing? Did you take a sewing class?

TS: No, I was too young then. I didn't, no interest then.

JS: I see. Okay.

DG: Did they teach odori at the language school?

TS: No, they didn't teach that. It was strictly reading and writing. So people that, students that graduated Holland Japanese School, they're pretty good in speaking Japanese. They used to be, like me too, I can't write no more 'cause I don't have to write it. And before, when my sister was over there, once in a while I used to write. But not no more, so you forget it. But I watch, on the tapes, I watch Japanese movies. I can understand it.

DG: Did you speak Japanese at home?

TS: Now?

DG: No, when you were growing up?

TS: Yeah, to our parents. But to my brothers, it was all English.

JS: Do your brothers understand Japanese as well?

TS: Oh yeah. We all understand.

DG: So the Japanese instruction was very strong, it was very good.

TS: Yeah. So I can still, I go to Japan and talk, be able to make conversation over there.

<Begin Segment 7>

JS: So we're gonna move to kind of the war years. Do you remember the bombing of Pearl Harbor, or when you first heard? What was that experience like? Where were you?

TS: You know, that day, when we heard about it, we were having an exercise, this special exercise class -- not class, but the man, teacher came from San Francisco and he was teaching us this exercise that they do in Japan. And then people, the Koyasakos used to live in the back, so they came, the girls came running over and said, "Oh, the war started." Yeah, and then the, right the next day, the teachers that came from San Francisco, they were taken away by the FBI. Right away, I heard. Our, Mr. and Mrs. Osaki, well, they weren't taken away. I guess they were up in age, so... but a lot of the old timers that lived in Clarksburg, the Sakatas, they were all taken, taken away to...

JS: The FBI picked up some of the leaders.

TS: Yeah, yeah.

DG: So your husband's parents?

TS: No, they didn't have to go. They were pretty up in age.

DG: Other Sakatas.

TS: Yeah, yeah. Like the one that, Frank Sakata, Tom Sakata, they were all taken away, and they had, they're pretty well-to-do, they owned the land there and all that.

DG: Do you know whether they were then released, or were they put in a separate prison?

TS: They were, they all went to, what is that? Is it...

DG: Crystal City.

TS: Yeah, someplace around there, I think. Not like the camps that we went to.

DG: So this exercise class, do you know the name of the...

TS: No, I can't...

JS: So it's like that Japanese exercise they do every day, that one?

TS: Yeah, yeah. With music, they have that. And then after that, well, it all disbanded and they were sent to different camps.

DG: So you were like sixteen?

TS: I was, I was a freshman, yeah.

DG: Do you remember what it was like going back to school after that happened?

TS: It was hard, 'cause I know there was some prejudiced people. Yeah.

JS: Did your teachers say anything to you?

TS: No, the teachers didn't say anything.

DG: Did other students say anything to you, good or bad?

TS: No, they didn't say anything like that. But you can feel it, there was some prejudice.

JS: So what did your parents have to do to close up the business?

TS: Farming?

JS: Uh-huh.

TS: Well, just, we told our, the landlord that we have to go. "We don't want to, but we have to go." So we went to Marysville Assembly Center. Yeah.

DG: What happened to your parents' farm equipment?

TS: I guess they gave it to the landowners, I suppose. They were real nice people.

DG: Could, do you remember their name?

TS: No, I don't. Some people really lost everything. But they said, "Oh, we'll take care of it for you," and -- the landowners -- and when you got back, well, they'd give it back to you, and some were real nice.

<Begin Segment 8>

DG: So you went to Marysville. How did you get there?

TS: The bus took us. We had to go to Florin to catch the bus, and then from Florin to Marysville Assembly Center. And we stayed there exactly one month, and then we went to Tule Lake and stayed there until the end. My father said, "It's the same thing, next, all the other camps, they're all the same thing. We don't have to move." So that's why we just stayed there, four years.

DG: So it sounded like other Clarksburg people went directly from here to Tule Lake.

TS: Yeah.

DG: Not, not Marysville first.

TS: Not everybody, and then some people went to, well, to Gila River Assembly Center, or concentration camp. They were all...

JS: Split up.

TS: Some went to Colorado, Amache. And so they were kind of split up all over.

JS: Did your family stay together? Like, you said you had cousins, did they all go to Tule Lake?

TS: Yeah, we all went to Tule Lake. And after we stayed there for a while, my cousins decided to go to, well, the boys were taken to the service, and then they went to Utah, I think, Topaz. Yeah, and we just stayed there.

DG: So when it became a segregated camp, your cousins' family went to Topaz.

TS: Topaz, yeah.

DG: I see. But your father decided to stay.

TS: Yeah, he said it's the same thing, so just stayed there.

JS: What was high school like in camp?

TS: Just like any other American school. They had grammar school, high school.

JS: Do you remember any of the teachers?

TS: I can't remember those teachers. I have a yearbook that they had.

DG: You still have the yearbook?

TS: Yeah. It's at home.

DG: And what jobs did your parents have at camp?

TS: My father went into farming. They had farms, so... and then my mother went in, waitress in the mess halls.

JS: Do you know what they grew out at Tule Lake? The crops?

TS: They had all the, it would snow and freeze, so it had to be, like turnips or carrots or, all the...

DG: Root vegetables.

TS: Yeah, yeah, root vegetable. It can't be on top, that grew, can't have tomatoes or... it's too cold.

JS: So do you remember that, when Tule Lake became a segregated camp and how things changed at the camp? Did that affect you?

TS: No, it didn't affect... we just stayed there. There was new one coming in, the one that stayed with us went out, new people coming in.

JS: What year did you graduate high school, then? It was in camp, right?

TS: Yeah, in camp. Gosh, I don't remember now. Four years over there, so... It was a big class. I mean, every class there, big class.

DG: Were you on any teams or...

TS: No, I didn't play.

DG: Did you sing, or any of those kind of --

TS: No. We used to go to Sunday school all the time, every Sunday we went.

DG: To the Christian or the Buddhist?

TS: Buddhist.

JS: So that was new for your family, 'cause when you were living out in the country, you didn't go to church.

TS: No, we didn't have no transportation, my father had to work, so couldn't afford it. Lot of 'em didn't get to go to church. But in camp you got a lot of time, so Mom started going to church on Sunday. And then later there was ministers from Hawaii that came too, quite a few of 'em, Buddhist ministers came to Tule Lake.

DG: Do you remember dances? Were there dances?

TS: You mean American dances?

DG: For teenagers, yeah.

TS: Yeah, they had all those things. They had dances and they had games, baseball. And they had a big gymnasium, so I think they had basketball too. Yeah, they'd play each other.

JS: When did you meet your husband? Did you meet him in camp?

TS: No, he was in the service.

JS: He was in the service. So it was after.

TS: Yeah.

DG: What camp was his family at?

TS: His family was in Tule Lake too. Yeah. She, my mother-in-law was kind of bitter because she had two sons that were in the service and she had to stay in camp, so, you know.

DG: And they were from Clarksburg area?

TS: They're Courtland. Yeah, Courtland area.

JS: So did you know the Sakata, your husband's family before?

TS: Yeah.

JS: A little bit.

TS: We, Courtland and Clarksburg were close, so, yeah.

DG: And they were farmers?

TS: Yeah, they're all farmers. All his, he had, they had nine kids and there's only two left now. No, three left. The rest are all gone now. Lot of 'em are gone now. I mean, they're all up in age. They're all in the eighties, so -- our age group, they're all eighties, nineties, so most of 'em are gone now. It's kind of sad, seeing them all go.

<Begin Segment 9>

DG: Do you remember how you felt as a sixteen-year-old, having to leave the place you knew to go to this prison?

TS: Well, I wouldn't say prison, but... well, we didn't know what it was gonna be like in camp. But then it was, in a way, it was good, because there was some people that was prejudiced outside of, I mean, that didn't care for the Japanese, so in a way, 'cause some were, when they, I remember one man went fishing and then he was attacked by some other fisherman that, "You don't belong here," and to get out and this and that. You know, it was prejudice going on, so in a way, it was better in camp because it's safer. You were protected in there. And whereas outside, some people went to restaurants and they couldn't get served, and you don't want to see those things or hear it. And so I think it's better in camp. It was safer. You couldn't go outside, if somebody's gonna be watching you all the time.

DG: Did you have any experiences like that before camp, where your family wouldn't be served at a store? Or --

TS: No, I never heard of such a thing. We were served at restaurants or anyplace. The clerks would take care of you and, go to any grocery stores or anything. There was no prejudice before the war, but after -- well, I don't know about during the war, but even after the war too, it was like those people, colored people there, they couldn't get in the, get on the bus. And some people would say, "Well, you don't have to get on this bus. You don't belong here." I never had that kind of experience 'cause I didn't get to ride the bus, but some have. Yeah, and I think that was kind of bad, you know.

JS: So you heard about others who experienced that, but you didn't experience that.

TS: No. No, I didn't experience any of that. Course, we didn't go out like that. Kind of scary too, so we stayed home. Even the movies too, you didn't want to go to the movies.

DG: Before the war or after the war?

TS: After the war. It was kind of scary, I think.

JS: So do you remember coming back? Did your family come back together, or did your father come back earlier to...

TS: Well, no, we came, my brothers were in the service too, so let's see, my brothers were in, is it Vietnam War?

DG: Korea?

TS: Or is it Korean War, I guess?

DG: So they didn't serve in World War II?

TS: No, no, no. They were in camp then. But my husband was in World War II, yeah.

DG: But, so the Shimadas came back to Clarksburg together?

TS: Yeah.

DG: Do you remember when?

TS: It was right after the war, so 1940-something. I guess.

JS: '45.

TS: '45 or '46, I don't know.

DG: '45 or '46.

TS: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 10>

DG: And did you come back to the land that your parents had leased before the war? Where did you live when you came back?

TS: We went to Woodland for a while too, just working for somebody. And had to find a job, so my father went to Woodland, and asparagus, washing asparagus and all that. They had it, so, I mean, you had to do anything that was available.

DG: Did you live in Woodland?

TS: Yeah, lived in Woodland.

JS: Do you know how long you were in Woodland?

TS: Just a short time.

JS: And then you returned to Clarksburg?

TS: Clarksburg, yeah.

JS: So you were out of high school then. Did you look for a job too? Did you find a job?

TS: Yeah, I was doing housework for a while. There was nothing else I could do.

JS: Did you live with a family? Or did you go...

TS: I lived in a family house. I mean, whoever wanted a houseworker, I just went in there, cleaned.

DG: In Sacramento?

TS: Yeah, cleaned house and washed dishes.

JS: Were you taking any classes at that time?

TS: No, no.

JS: Just working.

TS: Just working.

JS: What was that like? How did they treat you?

TS: They were nice families. Yeah, they were nice families.

JS: And how long did you do that?

TS: Not too long, and then got married, so, you know.

JS: So you were dating your husband then, after the war.

TS: Yeah, yeah. He was in the service, so... yeah.

DG: And your parents were able to lease more land, to start leasing land again and farm? Or did they ever return to farming?

TS: Yeah, they, well, that's all they could do, so lease the land and farm again.

DG: Tomatoes again?

TS: Yeah, tomatoes again.

JS: So can you tell us a little about your husband's family? So you, what year did you get married?

TS: Gosh, nineteen.... I should've looked it up.

JS: '49?

TS: Something like that. Well, my son is, he's collecting social security, he told me, so got to be sixty, what, sixty-two, five?

DG: Sixty-two, I think.

JS: Sixty-two?

TS: Sixty-two they collect now?

DG: I think.

TS: I think so. Well, Janet is too, I think she's collecting. They're a year apart, so her brother and her.

JS: So you got married and then you, your son is the oldest?

TS: Yeah, my son is the oldest, and Janet, and I got two younger ones.

<Begin Segment 11>

JS: So your husband's, the Sakata Brothers, the business, that was your husband and his brother?

TS: Yeah, brothers. They had the farming.

JS: In Clarksburg.

TS: Yeah.

DG: After the war, they started that?

TS: Yeah, after the war.

DG: And what did they grow?

TS: Well, there were, they had, they were farming in Woodland too. They had asparagus over there. They used to pack it, wash and pack the asparagus and send it out. Five S brand, that's what they called it. Five brothers, so... and then they came to Clarksburg and they started raising onions, and they had, they had all kinds of things, onions and tomatoes and sugar beets, all kinds. 'Cause they had five brothers.

DG: Did they lease the land, or did they start buying?

TS: They leased for a while, and then they bought land again 'cause they were able to buy it. Yeah.

JS: And your husband, their business lasted for a long time.

TS: Yeah.

JS: How many years?

TS: They lasted pretty long, then they sold the land -- the island over there, Prospect Island -- they sold that and then they decided to disband. And then my husband decided to stay in farming for a while, until he got a stroke, and then my son took over, the second son took over. They did it for ten years. I'm glad they quit because right now everything is, the expense is too high. I was trying to keep books for them, and everything is too high now. You can't come out with it. And then right now, like, there's no tomato cannery around here. They're all closed up, like Campbell's closing now, and then our tomato used to go to Heinz cannery and they're, they decided to build a plant in, they got one in Stockton, or Tracy. But they have a big plant in Australia. I think it's, labor is cheaper that way, and bring it in with a big ship. Yeah.

DG: Where was the local cannery?

TS: Stockton, Tracy was, we had, we went to Heinz cannery and Campbell's Tomato, they had one, they called it Valley Tomato, which they make tomato sauce only, and so our tomato went over there for a long time. Then they had -- this is a co-op -- they had, I can't even think of what the co-op was. They built, the farmers get together and built a cannery, and they, they pack and ship pears and -- there was pear growers in the co-op, and tomatoes.

DG: Where was that?

TS: That was in Stockton too.

DG: And was that all Japanese American?

TS: No. Everybody. Yeah, everybody. And it's too bad that these canneries all folded up. There's no work for a lot of people now. I don't know what all these Campbell people are gonna do.

DG: Did your father or your husband sell produce at the market in Sacramento?

TS: No, no.

DG: Why not?

TS: Well, they just went into big farming. They'd send it out, and the trucks would come and pick it up and take it to the canneries, in bulks anyway.

Off camera: They weren't, you guys weren't growing, you were growing canning tomatoes, not fresh.

TS: No, just all canning tomato. It comes in a big bulk.

Off camera: What did the families do? Did people, did your family have, like, a home garden?

TS: No. It was all by machine.

Off camera: No, but I'm saying for, did you have a home garden where people would grow their own lettuce or tomatoes?

TS: No, we didn't have any of those.

Off camera: You didn't.

TS: No.

Off camera: Did other families do that?

TS: No, just for themselves. Not to sell.

Off camera: No, that's what I mean, for yourself. You had, you had a garden at home?

TS: Yeah, yeah. Small garden. Some do.

Off camera: What would you guys grow in that garden?

TS: Whatever, tomatoes or cucumbers or whatever. Yeah. Whatever you eat every day. California's pretty good. You can raise anything you want. I mean, it grows good.

DG: Did you work in that home garden when you were a kid? Did you help out?

TS: No, no. That home garden is just for yourself, for the family to eat, not to send out.

DG: Right, but who took care of it?

TS: Well, everybody in the family.

JS: So in the -- we've done interviews across the state, and there are so few, so many Japanese were in agriculture, were in farming before the war, and there are very, a small number of communities that still have farming.

TS: Yeah, there's not many.

JS: Right. But Clarksburg, farming lasted in Clarksburg for a long time after the war, through maybe the '80s?

TS: Yeah, I guess. Well no, not '80s. '70s.

JS: '70s? And that was mostly because you were doing more, working with the canneries, you think, with Heinz and...

TS: Yeah. I know my boys just stayed ten years. That's all, they call it quits.

DG: And when did they quit?

TS: What?

DG: When was that? When did they quit?

TS: It's been a while now. My son that was farming is in, he's in, what is it?

JS: He has a gallery.

TS: Art gallery. Yeah, he as an art gallery. And the younger one just does any odd jobs. He didn't want to go to school, so I told him, that's what you get.

JS: So how did you feel... it was also unusual for, like, the Sansei to take over farming. So it must've been nice for you and your husband, for the boys to be involved.

TS: Yeah. But there isn't many. Like in Woodland, Aoki Brothers are still doing it. Sansei, third generation, they're still doing it. But there's not many.

DG: Hard work.

TS: It is hard work, yeah. And you know, the crops they raise isn't, they don't raise the price on those, and then everything else, expense is so high, the fertilizer and the fuels and everything that goes into that product is so expensive now. I don't know how they do it now.

<Begin Segment 12>

JS: Can you talk about the Clarksburg Japanese School after the war?

TS: We didn't have any.

JS: No?

TS: No. No, we didn't.

DG: Janet and her brothers didn't go to school there?

TS: No. There was no Japanese school no more, after the war. And in fact, the teacher, she, they, after the camp they went to a Japanese school in San Francisco, and they taught over there, I heard.

DG: Kinmon Gakuen.

TS: Yeah, Kinmon Gakuen.

DG: Were you a member of the Holland Doshi Kai?

TS: Yeah.

DG: When did that start?

TS: Some of the people that, few that's left decided to get together on New Year's, or once or twice a year. This year it's only one time. There's not many left, anyway. They're getting up in age.

JS: There was, when we met with the Hiromotos, they were telling us there were maybe forty families, Japanese families farming, or more, before the war, and then after the war a lot smaller number returned.

TS: Yeah.

JS: Do you remember that, like how many returned?

TS: Not too many. Yeah, they just disbanded, and the younger generation all went to town to work, like for the state or federal, working in the stores or something. There was no farmers. Younger generation, they want to take over, so it's hard work.

DG: But your husband's family -- these are the five Sakata brothers -- came back to start a business. Was their, your father-in-law also still working in the farm?

TS: Yeah, well, they used to kind of look around. They all had to, everybody had to work. But I thought they did real well. Everybody, as a whole, the Japanese, I thought they did real well. They didn't have anything when they came back. They didn't, no income, no money, and they started out with nothing, but look at the beautiful places they live in, and they're all doing good. There's nobody that's on... what is it, food, looking for food. They, I thought they all did real well after coming back with nothing. Yeah, they all worked hard.

DG: Did you have a job with the Sakata Brothers, or were you raising the kids?

TS: I was raising kids. Yeah, cooking and all that.

DG: Did they have labor camps? Where did they hire workers?

TS: Yeah, well, there used to be a labor camp here and there, and then you ask the labor contractor and they'll bring a pickup or busload of men to pick your tomatoes or whatever you got. But when the machine came out, tomato machine came out, well, you didn't need that many people no more. Yeah, the labor is so high too, so the machine did all the work.

DG: And where were most of those laborers from?

TS: They're all from Mexico.

DG: So I've seen some pictures of people picking crops here in Clarksburg during the war, and they look Mexican.

TS: Yeah.

DG: So I wondered whether, did you hear about who was doing the farming here when you were gone?

TS: Yeah, like the Herringers, they were farming, and they had, I think they called it Bracero, and they were all Mexicans, anyway, that was doing the farm work. Yeah, even now, it's all Mexican people. I don't think, like the Mexicans tell me, I don't think they could stand the heat and the dust. I don't think the other nationality could stand that. It is so hot and dusty. Yes. And that's what the Mexicans tell us, tell me. "Nobody can do work like us." Yeah, maybe. It's hard work. For the amount of money you get, you can go to town and wash cars or something, and it's cleaner and... my kids, nobody wanted to be a farmer. My oldest son is private investigation. Yeah, he went into criminology, so he's always, he was with narcotics for a long time, so now he's a private investigator. But they don't want to go out and farm, no.

DG: But then your second son came and took over, after your husband had a stroke?

TS: Yeah.

DG: Was he working for his father before?

TS: Yeah.

DG: He was.

TS: Yeah. Well, you know the, like our generation, they couldn't, they didn't get to have much education, so they had to go into farming or something like that. They couldn't do anything else. So the generation now, they get to go to school so they can go into any field they like.

Off camera: Did you ever want, did you want to go to college? Was there ever any thought like, "Oh, I'd like to do that"?

TS: Sometimes I used to think that's a good idea. So told my kids to go to school, all of 'em. Just my youngest one didn't want to go to school, but the rest all went to school.

Off camera: What would've you, what did, what would've you, what were you interested in? If you would've gone to college, what were your dreams, "I would do this"?

TS: Oh gosh, I don't know. I didn't...

Off camera: Did you like books, or did you like math? What subject was, like --

TS: I liked sewing and all that. I did a lot of that.

JS: Where did you learn to sew?

TS: My mother sewed a lot. I never got any, bought clothes because my mother was a good seamstress, and I used to wish I had a, bought clothes sometimes, dresses. But she made 'em all. Yeah, and so --

DG: My mom sewed all our clothes too.

TS: Yeah, she sewed all the clothes, even coats and everything. But, so I did a lot of sewing for Janet. She didn't get to wear bought clothes much either because I sewed, I enjoyed it. And I still -- well, right now I can't do much with poor eyesight and all that, but I'm into knitting now and I enjoy that.

DG: Did you wish that your children had learned Japanese as well as you did? Did that matter to you?

TS: No, because, well, you know the first generation, they're fading away and even if you learned, they wouldn't have a chance to read and write. I don't know how they got -- like Janet goes to Japan, she likes it over there. And how she, well, she's not, compared to the other brother she can speak pretty good. It'll pass. And my second son too, he went too and he liked it over there. But when you don't have anybody over there no more, you don't care.

<Begin Segment 13>

JS: So where do you live now?

TS: I live in Clarksburg.

JS: And do you see, are you involved with social activities there now?

TS: Yeah, I'm pretty busy. Tomorrow I'm going to garden club, and it's mostly social. Talk, talk. And then I go to knitting class. Our little community has all those things, so I just walk over there and just go learn.

DG: Is it at the church?

TS: Yeah, it's at the church there.

JS: The community church?

TS: Yeah.

JS: Do they have, like senior lunch or --

TS: Yeah, they have that too, so we all go to that. It's a lot of fun just getting together and talk, talk. Then our knitting too, we just, I just made a lot of scarves and hats for the children's home. I just give it to them. They're waiting because Christmas's coming up, they want it for their Christmas baskets, so I just give it to them. And then there's a quilting class, so they do beautiful work. I'm not into quilting. I thought about it. I have a lot of pieces of material, but then after, later on, I thought, oh no, so I gave it all away. There's a lot of things to do. I'm out almost every day doing something. I enjoy it. But then, I don't think I could stay there that long 'cause I have to take my driver license next year, and maybe they won't give it to me, I don't know. I never got into an accident, but you never know.

DG: So we're working on documenting the history of the Gakuen in Clarksburg, and we know that the Sakata family would like there to be a continued life for the Gakuen. We're not clear what that would be, but I wonder, do you think it's important that that...

TS: I don't think so. There isn't any... what would you use it for?

DG: Do you think it's important --

TS: It's too far out there.

DG: Yeah, it is pretty far.

TS: Yeah, and there's not that many people around that would use it.

JS: What about any of the people in town? Like if the schools went out, or school visits or anything like that?

TS: No, there's nothing.

DG: Do you think that it's important for the story of Japanese in the Delta to be told? Or is that...

TS: I don't think, there's just not, there's not that many Japanese around to keep it up. It's just like in Walnut Grove too, with all the Japanese that used to live there, they're almost all gone now. So I think it's gonna fade away. They have a church and everything there, but -- I go to Walnut Grove church, but I don't think that's gonna keep up too long.

JS: So you went to the Walnut Grove church after camp, then, started going?

TS: Yeah. Well, my husband says, "I belong to that side," so he didn't want to belong over in Sacramento. He's always a Delta, he said, so we just go to Delta, Walnut Grove church. That's the closest.

DG: So when he was growing up, was he on any of the sports teams around here?

TS: He told me that they were so poor with nine kids, "We couldn't go to a lot of things," he told me. But he was in, he played baseball, he said. Yeah, he liked sports, but he just couldn't participate in those things. Too much. It was rough for them before the war. They all had to work hard, and they had a bunch of kids.

DG: And what were they growing before the war? Do you know?

TS: What did they say they grew? I guess they had tomatoes too, tomatoes and beets, sugar beets and all that. Now Clarksburg all, like Napa Valley, it's all grapes now. Every place you go in Clarksburg, it's all grapes.

DG: Things change.

TS: Yeah, it sure changed.

Off camera: I have one question. What, why, of all the families that returned to the Delta area, Clarksburg, why were the families like yours successful and others didn't return? Why were there just those four or five families that were able to come back and make a living and the other couldn't? What, what...

TS: Well, if they didn't have any... well, if they didn't have, like my husband's, well, the father-in-law used to say, "We got five boys, we should all stick together and make it grow and farm together," he would say. It wasn't easy, but... and they worked hard and they came out ahead, I'd say. They built it up. Yeah.

JS: So your brothers, after they, you said they served in the Korean War, did they come back to farming, the Shimada brothers?

TS: Yeah, they went to Woodland and they were farming tomatoes too. They had no education, so that's the only thing, farming is the only thing they could do. Some went to work in the stores, but then, if you're not used to that kind of life, well, it didn't...

Off camera: Did you have some of your friends, who were, did you have some of your good friends after the war that didn't come back?

TS: Yeah, they didn't come back.

Off camera: Who were some of your good friends that you had as a teenager that come back?

TS: Well, like the... Mary Matsu, I think she went to L.A. someplace. I'm not too sure, but I think they went to L.A. She's gone now. And then this other girl, Otsuji girl, she didn't, I didn't, I don't think they came back either. I've never seen them.

Off camera: And did you try and stay in touch with them? Did you try to write letters to each other?

TS: No, no. We didn't know where they were. No address, no nothing.

Off camera: That's hard. Everybody really lost touch.

TS: It is. Yeah.

Off camera: And you made, did you make new friends okay when you came back?

TS: Yeah. I mean, go to church and find new ones, communities, neighbors.

DG: And your neighbors were all races.

TS: Yeah, all races.

JS: Yeah, I have one more question. So your daughter Janet has been very helpful to us, both in the Walnut Creek history, Walnut Grove, collecting that history, and this. What do you think about the work that she does now in kind of collecting stories and documenting --

TS: It's kind of interesting, yeah, what they did and all that.

JS: Okay. Well, thank you so much.