<Begin Segment 1>

DC: This is an interview with Evelyn Togami, Mary Matsubara and Charlie Matsubara, all second generation Japanese Americans who live in New Mexico. This interview is taking place at Van Citters Historic Preservation on Monday, May 28, 2012, at 10:00 am. My name is Danielle Corcoran and I'm conducting the interview as part of the New Mexico Japanese American Citizens League's project on Japanese experiences in New Mexico during World War II. To get started, could each of you please say your name and spell your last name for us?

ET: Evelyn Togami, T-O-G-A-M-I is my last name.

DC: Thank you.

MM: Mary Matsubara, M-A-T-S-U-B-A-R-A, Matsubara.

DC: Thank you.

CM: Charlie Matsubara, M-A-T-S-U-B-A-R-A.

DC: Thank you. And could you each tell us when and where you were born and where you live now?

ET: I was born December 9, 1920. I was born here in Albuquerque and now I live in Los Lunas, New Mexico.

MM: I was born in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I live in the north valley in Albuquerque.

DC: What year were you born?

MM: Huh?

DC: What year were you born?

MM: Oh, I wasn't going to tell you. [Laughs] 01/03/22.

DC: Okay. And Charlie?

CM: I'm Charlie Matsubara. I was born as Saburo Matsubara, June 3, 1920, in San Francisco, California. And now I live in Albuquerque.

DC: I see. You said 1920, right?

CM: Yes.

DC: Okay, in San Francisco. Thank you. And can you tell us how you're all related to each other?

ET: Mary and I are sisters. And he's my brother-in-law.

MM: He's my husband.

DC: Good, thank you, okay.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

DC: So Mary and Evelyn, since you're sisters and you shared a lot of the same experiences growing up, we have some questions that are for the both of you, and then, Charlie, we have some questions that are just for you. So we'll get to those later, but feel free to jump in any time if you have something to add, okay? So Evelyn and Mary, we wanted to begin by talking about your parents, okay? So where did your parents come from in Japan?

ET: Hiroshima Japan.

DC: And your father came to the U.S. first, is that right?

ET: Uh-huh.

DC: Do you know when he came?

ET: Well I don't know the date but he was just about eighteen years old when he landed in San Francisco, and then he just looked around for a job and all, so he can get his family out. That's about all I know.

DC: How long did he stay in San Francisco?

ET: I have no idea.

DC: Do you remember what year he was born?

ET: Oh my goodness. When Papa was... well, do you remember what year? I can't remember what year he was born.

MM: No.

ET: We should have looked yesterday. We went to the cemetery and it's all written down there.

CM: Go to the graveyard and see the stone.

DC: So he was in San Francisco and then what eventually brought him to New Mexico, your father?

MM: I guess when he got Mother you know, it was one of these marriages where the family in Japan picks a bride for you, you know, and so that's when my dad was in San Francisco, and he met her on this boat when she came in. And they got married in San Francisco.

DC: I see. And then they came to New Mexico together after that?

ET: Right.

DC: I see. And so, why did they choose New Mexico?

ET: He worked for the railroad, so whether that brought him here, I don't know. Do you think, do you remember?

CM: Those early years, the first group of immigrants, they had more or less a contract, hotel and immigrant and the railroad. That's where most of them got all, got into the railroad, here, because that was more or less a set contract, they have to serve so many months or years. That's why, to open up the railroad system out west, they used all the Oriental immigrants to do the labor work.

MM: Of course, you know, when my father was here, his folks in Japan thought he should be married because he's single. And so they picked out my, picked out Mother and it was sort of a "picture bride," okay. And my dad agreed and everything, so when she came over, she said there's a bunch of young ladies on the boat and they're all looking out from the deck to see all these gentlemen waiting on the dock. "Oh, I think that's mine, no, he's too ugly," and this and that and it all happened, you know.. But my dad was handsome, so Mom was lucky. [Laughs]

[Interruption]

DC: So what was your parents' life like in New Mexico in those early years?

MM: Well you know, when my dad met her in San Francisco, they got married over there, and my mom says it was really funny because she had the Japanese kimono and all. So my dad, he decided he was going to take her to the department store and outfit her, you know. And you know how embarrassing it is when you don't know anybody, but she says that they managed. And then they got, they came back to New Mexico and Albuquerque because my dad was working here and he knew more way... and he had, well I should say he had a lot of friends, and they took my mom in just like a member of the family, taught her how to speak Spanish. And I think she said she spoke better Spanish than Japanese by the time...

ET: Well, they told us we spoke English, I mean, Spanish before we learned English. Because our neighbors were Spanish people and they all spoke Spanish, so we picked it up. To this day we remember some of it, but not too much. [Laughs]

MM: Can't even remember Japanese either. [Laughs]

DC: So did your father work on the railroad the whole time they were in Albuquerque before the war?

MM: Well no. I think eventually he went into farming. There was a nice lady, old time friend of my dad's, 'cause he was working here, and she had land and a big home, says, "You can all move in there," and all and so he started farming.

DC: I see. What did he grow?

MM: Just all vegetables, vegetables more or less. And then he sold it to the hospital, to the cafe, and you know, he went out and... so that's the beginning.

ET: He was a salesman. [Laughs]

DC: And how did your mother occupy herself once he started farming?

ET: She worked hard on the farm, she did.

DC: I see.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

DC: So can you tell us about your childhood in Albuquerque before the war? What part of town did you live in?

MM: What kind of what?

DC: What part of town did you live in?

MM: In the south valley.

ET: Yeah, in Armijo.

MM: Armijo, yeah.

DC: So how were you treated by people of non-Japanese ancestry as you were growing up?

MM: They were nice to us.

ET: We never had any problems.

MM: No problem. They showed us how to speak, how to eat chili beans.

DC: How to eat chili beans?

MM: Uh-huh, and showed Mother how to make tortillas and she could really make good tortillas, too.

DC: So your whole neighborhood was mostly Spanish-speaking?

MM: Hispanics, uh-huh.

ET: We had some folks that were black folks, but they were really nice to us, too. And they had a big family, so overall everybody treated us nice.

MM: Yeah, that was nice you know.

DC: Did you have a lot of interaction with white people or white kids growing up?

ET: Oh yes, quite a bit.

DC: Where? At school or...

MM: At school. And then they'd take us home with them to meet their folks and all and they'd come to our house. And it just became a real nice relationship.

DC: Uh-huh. Were Japanese customs and traditions or Japanese language part of your life when you were small?

MM: Of course. You know... and gradually we got to where we didn't know how to speak Japanese really, and it bothered my folks. So they decided they'd send us to my aunt's place in California so we could go learn the Japanese culture.

DC: I see. Is that when your whole family moved to California?

MM: No, we kids went out first, and then later they all moved out, we all moved out.

DC: Oh. So you went there as a permanent move or you just went to your aunt's house to visit sometimes?

MM: Well, for a while, it was permanent. It wasn't because we...

ET: No, You just stayed.

MM: We stayed there and the folks opened up a grocery store there, a produce store. And, then finally my dad decided he wanted to come back to New Mexico, and that's where we came back.

ET: That's when the war broke.

MM: Uh-huh, after the war broke, yeah. And then we just didn't come home. Charlie's family came with us and we all...

ET: Well, it would be my dad's sister, his family, her family, so actually our cousin was married to Charlie's older brother, so that's the reason the families all came together, and my... so we had people that vouched for my dad.

CM: Goto and Matsubara, and the four families.

ET: Yeah, four families, yes.

DC: Four families came back?

ET: Uh-huh.

DC: Okay. Do you know about when you moved to California and when your parents joined you?

MM: Oh, when we moved back to Albuquerque?

DC: No when you moved to California.

MM: Oh, when we moved.

ET: We went to school there, yeah, we finished high school over there in California.

MM: That's true. We went to learn the Japanese culture, didn't learn too much. [Laughs]

DC: Were you part of a bigger Japanese community there?

MM: Uh-huh.

ET: Oh yeah, they were, they were all over.

MM: We went to the Japanese school. We went to the American school first, and on Saturdays we all went to Japanese school. We didn't learn too much.

ET: I think we were too old. [Laughs]

DC: What kind of things did they teach you at the Japanese school?

MM: Well just grammar and...

CM: Read and write?

MM: Huh?

CM: Read and write.

MM: Read and write, yeah, that was difficult. To write Japanese.

ET: So we had the younger kids, we had to compete with them.

DC: How old were most of your classmates in the Japanese school?

ET: Oh they were really young when they, because we were already...

MM: We were already in the tenth grade when we went out there, you know. And the little Japanese kids are cute. We just, it was comical. They'd snicker because she and, my sister and I were... "How come those old ladies are with us?"

DC: Was there anybody else your age in the Japanese school?

ET: Oh yes, uh-huh.

MM: They knew that we were in high school already, you know. But it's been fun.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

DC: What language did your parents speak in the house?

MM: Huh?

DC: What language did your mom and dad speak at home?

MM: Oh, we spoke Japanese. And my mother spoke Spanish, she spoke English, you know, broken English, but it was a fun time.

DC: What kind of cooking did she do, did she make New Mexican cuisine or Japanese cuisine?

ET: Well she learned to do the New Mexican, too.

MM: She learned to... well, all the Spanish ladies helped her so much, you know. She made the best chili beans, tortillas, tortillas and sopapillas, tamales, Mom really learned. But we didn't learn, did we?

ET: A little bit.

DC: Was being Japanese American a big part of your identity at that time before the war?

MM: We didn't notice any difference, you know. They, we went to school together, we went to their house and everything. It was nice. Of course, we were the only Japanese family in Albuquerque at that time. The others were intermarriage or Japanese men married to an English woman.

ET: A Spanish lady.

MM: And then a Spanish lady. And so we go over to their, visit them and it would be just a friendly visit.

DC: So there were other families in town where there was a Japanese husband and a non-Japanese wife?

MM: Yeah.

ET: Eventually more people moved in, but they have all moved away too.

DC: So can you tell me more about your parents' business in California?

MM: What they what?

DC: Your parents' business in California. What did they do and how were you involved?

MM: We had a grocery store, mainly produce.

ET: We had a meat market, too.

MM: Oh yeah, a meat market.

DC: What was it called?

ET: Well, you know something... I don't think...

MM: It was fun in California. We had to go to school, American school, then there's a Japanese school and, oh, for a while our Japanese was so poor we didn't do too well. [Laughs]

DC: Were there other Japanese students in your Monday through Friday school?

MM: Not here in Albuquerque.

ET: In California there were, yes. We had a lot of fun. We tried to keep in touch after that but then it's hard to. You lose count. But we had some good friends.

MM: We still have good friends.

DC: Were your parents planning on returning to Japan someday initially?

MM: Well, they thought about it but you know they never... after four kids, they couldn't make it go. Because we had another sister and then a brother.

DC: Did you grow up with any expectation that your family would be moving to Japan someday or did you grow up with the expectation that you'd be living here all your life?

MM: I think we just...

ET: I did. I just figured we'd be living in the U.S.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

MM: Well I know Charlie and I took... after we were married, took a long trip to Japan, over a month, and this is how I learned about Japan and how things go. But you know something, they were nice to us, they were.

DC: In Japan?

MM: Uh-huh.

DC: Where did you go on your trip?

MM: Oh, we went a lot of places.

CM: We had a one-month trip there, highlight of Japan, major cities, scenic places, and ate the finest of the Japanese food over there, so we had a great time.

MM: Going to this restaurant, we didn't know how --

CM: The only thing I had trouble is I do not drink, and you've got to be able to drink to be socializing in Japan.

MM: Even the ladies drink.

CM: And you have to be able sing a few songs or so, to entertain, that's Japanese custom.

DC: I heard you sing pretty well.

MM: Yeah, he's a good singer.

CM: [Laughs] I don't know. When I was... when my voice was changed, the voice teacher said, "Charlie, I'm going to give you a B for not singing at all," my voice was so low, it just wouldn't fit in with the other group. So I got a B of just sitting and watching the others. And that made me unable to sing for ten years or more. And I learned back to singing again when I was interned into the camp in 1942. And at that time, there was no entertainment whatsoever, and we hear the camp group have their talent in singing. And I was listening to them and I said, well... and that's how I got interested in singing. And besides, then I really come back to Albuquerque with my orchestra, my John Deere tractor, that was my background music.

DC: How do you use a tractor as background music?

CM: Well it makes a lot of noise so it drowned out my voice, so my neighbors won't hear me singing. I sing to myself. So because of the John Deere, I have a big volume.

DC: That's funny. So this was at Manzanar that you joined a chorus?

CM: No, no. Manzanar I was just a listener. Because there's a lot of talented people in the camp there, and so there's a... I went to a wedding, and one of the roommates got married and went to the wedding, and at that time this fellow was a good singer, he sang two songs, "Because" and "Be My Love" at the wedding. And it was beautiful, and I kept that to myself, and I used that song locally twenty years later. I was able to have the opportunity to use that for the wedding.

DC: I see. You first heard the song at a wedding?

CM: Yes.

DC: And then you sang it another wedding?

CM: After twenty years later here in Albuquerque, I had an opportunity to be able to sing in public. Outside of that I was a farmer, so I just sang to myself with my John Deere tractor, that was my orchestra.

DC: Out in the field you would sing?

CM: Yes.

DC: I see. Do you sing around the house?

CM: Oh yes.

MM: Oh, does he.

DC: Do you want to sing for us on camera?

MM: Sing one for us.

CM: Yeah, at ninety-two, you know, I still got the voice.

DC: Can we hear it?

CM: You want me to sing now?

DC: If you want.

CM: Oh my gosh.

MM: Go ahead, Charlie.

CM: You know, if I was going to sing here I'd have to be prepared, and I have a secret thing to prepare my voice.

ET: Oh my, you forgot to bring your celery.

MM: Well, I didn't know he was going to sing.

CM: Yes, right, you know, before I sing I usually get a celery, and I chew on that and the celery fluid, it lines my vocal voice and with that, my voice flows out freely and smoothly and without any effort.

ET: But try anyway, Charlie, without the celery.

CM: Yeah. What's a good song? Okay, I'll sing one, sort song.

MM: Okay, short, make it short.

CM: [Sings]

DC: That was beautiful, even without the celery. Thank you, that sounded great.

CM: Yeah, I should get a patent on the celery juice and sell it to these singers. Their voice quality will really pick up.

MM: Get patent in celery.

DC: That's funny. So we should probably return to the conversation about California before we get too far away from that. So you were going to high school in California?

MM: I graduated from high school there.

DC: You both did, right?

MM: Uh-huh.

DC: And so what year did you graduate?

MM: Huh?

DC: What year did you graduate?

ET: Mine was 1940, you graduated before because...

MM: '37

ET: I had to stay out of school for a year because I got sick.

MM: '38 or '39.

ET: '39 because I graduated in '40.

DC: So you were all grown up when the war started?

ET: Oh, yes.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

DC: What do you remember about the outbreak of the war, what was it like when you heard about Pearl Harbor?

MM: Well you know what I remember, people were still nice to us. They were really nice, I mean they talked to us and they never crossed the street when they see you coming. But I remember mostly we had to use dark curtain on our windows at night. And I didn't think that was necessary, but again, that's for safety I guess.

ET: But I don't think we were the only one, everybody else had to do it, everybody had to do it. But then if just a teensy bit of light showed, somebody would come and say, "Please, there's light showing." So... but they had to be careful so that was their job.

MM: Yeah, I didn't enjoy that part, putting dark clothes on the windows. But then everybody else must have done it, I don't know.

ET: When you heard about Pearl Harbor, were you worried about what it meant for you as Japanese Americans?

MM: You know what? It never scared me. I wasn't scared at all. And nobody made any kind of remarks to us or anything.

DC: That's good. Did anybody act hostile towards you ever or do anything that scared you?

ET: Not to us, except one... our good customer, she came and said her brother had different feelings than she did, so just be careful, and that's all she said. And he never came around or anything, but then she was one of our best customers and that's how she felt, so she came to warn us, but we never did see him so I guess he didn't want to come. He was scared of us I guess. [Laughs]

DC: Was he a customer before?

ET: I don't remember him. His sister was the one that always came and she was a good customer and a good friend.

DC: So it didn't hurt business at all?

ET: No, I don't think so. But right after that of course we had to sell the place or try to sell, we couldn't sell it. We just had to leave everything as is.

DC: And that's when you had to leave California because you were living in an area that was declared to be part of the exclusion zone?

ET: Well I don't know whether that was the reason, do you?

MM: No.

ET: But my dad just figured that since the war and that they were talking about having to go to camp, and he didn't want us to go to camp, so he contacted our friends here in New Mexico.

MM: Oh, we had some good friends here.

ET: And they vouched for us, so that was nice.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

DC: How long did you have before you needed to leave for New Mexico?

MM: How long did we stay in California before...

DC: Yeah, how long did you have to try to sell the business and to get ready?

MM: We didn't sell.

ET: We didn't have time to sell. You had... I forgot how soon we had to get out so we just left.

CM: They gave you thirty days to...

ET: To get rid of...

CM: February. Let's see, February the 19th. That was Executive Order 9066, and you had thirty days to clear out your, and make a decision, you could voluntarily evacuate or you go to the camp. You had a choice in that thirty-day period.

MM: And my folks didn't want us to go to camp, because there's three girls and a boy and then, seems like they were putting bungalows at the camp, and one little bungalow for all the family, my dad didn't think that was right, so he says, "We'll go back to Albuquerque." And so we, he contacted his friend here, and we had a real nice friend. He was the deputy marshal, federal deputy marshal here, so he contacted him. And he says, "Oh, come on out, there's no problem here." So this is why we came out.

ET: Except the governor. [Laughs]

MM: He was not a governor yet.

ET: Yes, he was.

MM: Tingley? Do you remember Tingley?

CM: Clyde Tingley.

DC: He was the mayor right, at the time.

ET: I mean not governor, mayor.

MM: He was, he was some kind of a guy. We were all working, because we all worked together on the farm you know, the family, and here comes two, three limousine-looking cars driving up the driveway. And stopped by and says, and there was Tingley and his... "Oh," he says, "I think you people better get settled up and start leaving." And so my dad says, "Just hang on," you know, and he went to talk to the deputy marshal, he was a federal deputy marshal, he says, "You just stay put," he tells my dad, "there's no way they can kick you out." And that was it.

DC: And then he never bothered you again?

ET: Well he didn't let the little kids go to school. At that time... but they finally went to school but then he says, but then the high school kids went but then the little grammar school kids, he says no. So why he said it we don't know.

MM: However, I don't have any hard feelings, I really don't. I thought, "Well, they're doing their business," you know.

DC: So the kids who couldn't go to school, those were your younger cousins?

ET: No they would be a niece, a nephew, Dickie, the nephew. Well, it would be our cousin's children, so I don't whether it would be nephew or not.

DC: Your cousin's children?

ET: Yeah.

DC: So who came back with you from California? There were several families that came to New Mexico.

ET: Yes, our family and Charlie's family and then my dad's sister and...

CM: Goto, Nagayama, Matsubara, and Saiyuga, there were four families.

ET: Four families.

MM: There's a caravan of cars.

DC: Can you tell us about the trip from California to New Mexico?

ET: Yeah, Mary was one of the drivers. I didn't have to drive, she had to drive, my dad was driving, and the... I forgot who drove the, maybe Tomi or... who was driving the other?

MM: Tor-chan?

ET: Maybe she was...

CM: And Frank.

ET: And Frank, yeah, Frank was...

CM: So there was about, what, seven cars, caravan?

ET: I can't remember how many of us...

MM: All of us had a car and a truck and a station wagon and all, there was a caravan.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

DC: Did you encounter any problems on the way?

ET: Yeah.

CM: Gas station man with a shotgun.

MM: He didn't want to sell us gas. He came up like that.

DC: This was in which state?

ET: In Arizona, wasn't that in Arizona?

MM: I think that was after the California border. However, that was just another episode in our life.

DC: So what exactly happened, you were in Arizona and you were trying to get gas?

ET: He wouldn't sell us gas.

MM: He didn't want to sell gas to us. And so naturally, I think he was scared of us, and you know, there's nothing to be scared of us. And he, he really did, like that.

DC: He came to your car with a shotgun?

MM: We were all in the car and truck, you know. But that's okay, nothing happened. We just drove off.

ET: Then when we got into Gallup it was evening time, so it was trying to find a place to sleep, so my dad found a place and the man was real nice, he says, "You guys, we have room for you guys, but then, do you think you can leave early in the morning?" My dad said, "Yes, we'll leave early in the morning," and so he thanked him and we stayed there. And so that was the only thing, wasn't it, on the trip, just that man in Arizona and Gallup, but nobody else in Albuquerque, except Tingley.

DC: Did Tingley give any other Japanese American families a hard time, or was it just your family?

ET: We must have been the first ones that we came, so I don't think he's... after that maybe he didn't want to mess with it, but after the, Mr. Salazar told him.

MM: I think he was going to run for governor or something. He was the mayor and he didn't want to, you know, have this kind of problem in his... I think that was the reason he...

ET: We don't know.

MM: Oh, I forgot about all that.

DC: So how did he prevent the little kids from going to school?

ET: I don't remember how he did that, but then I, they can't go to school, that's all I can remember now.

DC: How long did they have to sit out of school?

ET: It couldn't have been too long I don't think, because eventually they did go to school.

CM: They were more or less fear of the safety of the kids, that's why.

ET: You think maybe that was the reason?

CM: Yes.

DC: Do you think they had anything to fear?

CM: Just at that time, war with Japan was the enemy and you don't know how the public's going to react. So for the main purpose was for safety purpose to try to avoid that problem.

ET: And with the little kids I don't see how they could have done anything. [Laughs] But then that's the way it goes you know.

DC: They were elementary school kids?

ET: Yes, elementary, yes. But the rest of 'em, some of the other little kids, I guess, they didn't come to... they all went to camp, so they had to be educated in camp.

MM: I think Charlie was... we weren't married yet, but Charlie was the only one that went to camp in our family, huh? And he was in Manzanar.

DC: You mentioned that your experience was sort of similar to that of the people who went to camp in that you still had to leave behind your house and your business and you still lost things. And you were talking about how you rented a moving van.

ET: Yeah, we still don't know where they are.

DC: So tell me about that, tell me that story.

MM: They did deliver our furniture, however, there was a piano missing. I mean, what can you do?

DC: So they picked up your belongings in California but they didn't deliver them all?

MM: See, we were already, had to leave, so we had to employ the van and all, and we just had them just pack everything in there. A lot of things wasn't packed in there.

DC: What else did you lose?

MM: We didn't do a thing, we just took the loss.

DC: Why did you accept it?

MM: Huh?

DC: Why did you accept it?

MM: Well you know...

ET: Well, then there's no, we didn't, there's no, we didn't have an address of that man that took it, so there was no way we could find him.

CM: We had no resource to fight it, to tell you the truth. And we had never had that kind of experience before. Never thought of suing and all that kind of stuff.

DC: Do you think it was harder to fight it because you were Japanese American, or do you think it would have been the same for anybody?

MM: It was because we were at war. Makes sense, doesn't it?

DC: Can you say more about that?

MM: Huh?

DC: What do you mean?

MM: Oh, I don't know.

CM: Oh, at that time you just want to keep it at the lower level, you know. Even you have rights, doesn't mean nothing, we're American citizens, but we were treated like an enemy. Our citizenship had no value whatsoever. And that was a big shock and it still hurts me to this very day. And because of our experience, the war with the other countries, U.S. learned how to treat other foreign citizens in this country when there's conflict in war or something like that. It was, we were their guinea pig of the test, they learned how to treat foreign people.

MM: We sure did feel for people after us. I think it's the Iranians, huh? I said, "Don't do anything with those people," because we went through it, and we didn't want them to go through it, you know, so...

DC: You don't want people to be profiled.

MM: But then I think that's all over now. I don't think they're going to do things like that anymore.

ET: We hope not.

MM: We hope not.

CM: This interview is stirring it up again.

DC: Is it hard to talk about?

CM: We try to avoid it.

MM: Well, you know, I think the people know what we went through, but it's hard for them to bring it up.

ET: But there's a lot of people now that they didn't know about this evacuation and stuff, the younger kids, and they said they don't have anything like that in the history books or anything anymore. So they just don't know.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

DC: Can you tell me more about what happened when you returned to Albuquerque, where you lived and what your parents did?

MM: Well, you know, it wasn't bad at all. All of us, those seven cars, I mean, with truck included, we all stayed in a motel on... in the south, wasn't it? South valley? Well, there's a motel there we stayed at.

ET: Well we stayed, then probably rented a big house. And then we went, we went to work for different people. I went to go work at a doctor's home, and she went to work, Mr. Katzen, I guess.

MM: All of us young people, my cousin went to a lawyer's home. And you know they took us in and then we stayed with them, and so I thought, well, we knew the family I went to before we, you know, we knew them in Albuquerque so it was easy for me. And they'd say, "We want you to eat this breakfast, lunch and dinner with us," and I felt like, no, I shouldn't be doing that. And so they insisted I do, so eventually I became a member of their family. You know, it was nice. I took care of their baby and...

DC: How long did you work for them?

MM: Oh, what was it? About two or three years, I guess. Because Connie was just a little baby. And I was able to take her home with me and everything. They trusted me that much, you know. So it was nice.

DC: This was a white family?

MM: Huh?

DC: A white family?

MM: Yes.

ET: He had a restaurant and... Court cafe, wasn't it? Mr. Katzen.

MM: They were Greek, Greek, I think he was a Greek man. But boy, he was nice. I mean, both he and his wife were nice. Oh, they were nice.

ET: I worked for a doctor, Dr. Rice.

MM: We had to get out and do something because... a whole bunch of family.

CM: Lot to feed.

MM: Oh, but it was fun.

DC: Were you all living in one house or...

MM: Two house.

DC: Two houses.

MM: I think his family had, right next door, huh, Charlie? And then, yeah, and one big house. I think there might have been fifteen of us in that big house, huh?

ET: Oh, I don't think that many. [Laughs]

MM: I mean, it was a... so we cleaned, cleared out the huge garage there, I mean really cleaned it up, put a table in there so everybody can eat there, and it worked out fine. And I think my cousin and I did all the cooking while the others all went out to work on the farm. And I mean, I wouldn't do it again, though.

DC: So you didn't live with the families you worked for, right, you stayed home?

MM: Well I stayed with them because they wanted me to stay with the baby a lot. And she became like a family. I was able to take her home with me and all. She was just... and right now, when she comes to Albuquerque, she looks me up. She's a lawyer now, the little girl that I took care of, yeah.

DC: You did a good job with her.

MM: She's a really nice lady.

ET: It was a good family. It was a good family.

DC: So how did your lives unfold in the years following that?

MM: Oh, you know what? She got married first, right?

ET: Yeah.

MM: And she took off. So my sister, my younger sister and I stayed at home. We should have took over, too. But no, it was okay, there's nothing to be afraid of now. I don't think anybody should be afraid. They should take the responsibility and work it out, because it works out.

DC: Shouldn't be afraid of what?

MM: Nobody, you shouldn't be afraid of anybody. But they were afraid of us, I think. [Laughs]

DC: In Albuquerque did you feel like anybody was afraid of you?

MM: Huh?

DC: In Albuquerque did you feel like anybody was afraid of you?

MM: I don't think so, they were really nice. They were really nice.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

DC: Do you think that life changed for Japanese Americans in New Mexico as a result of the war?

MM: Well, there weren't too many Japanese Americans in Albuquerque. I think we were the only family for a long time There was a lot of Japanese men married to... there was one married to a European lady, one married to a Spanish lady. And we didn't really become that friendly, but we were able to go and visit them and all. And they'd come... the Japanese men would come but their wives wouldn't come with them to our place. Bashful.

DC: That's funny. So did you experience Albuquerque any differently before and after the war?

MM: No. They were nice to us, I mean... Idon't think anything happened except with Governor Tingley.

DC: Did you feel like your citizenship had no value as Charlie was saying, did you feel like that, too?

ET: I think the people that went to camp noticed it more than we did, I think, since we didn't go to camp. And they, they had a lot of hardship compared to... we didn't have any hardship, I don't think.

DC: It wasn't a hardship to leave California so abruptly?

ET: Well...

MM: You know, it was nice for us because we were coming back to what, where we used to live. It was...

ET: And the people that went to camp, they just went to live in not a regular home, they even, like Santa Ana, or no Santa Anita where the horses were, they had to clean that up to live in the place like that. So I think that might have made them feel bad.

MM: But then of course we didn't know what it was like to go back to California, like my girlfriend, one of the very best girlfriends, she got married in camp and it was, it was really something different. She wrote me a letter and says, "I'm going to marry so and so," and I said, that's funny. Her husband-to-be was one of our very good friends. I didn't know about that you know. And so she married him and they've been moved back to California, and she said there was no place to go for a long time because they were looking for houses and all, and so she said, "We rented a place somewhere in the country," she told me. And she said, "You know, and when we went to bed it was next to a pigpen," okay, their bedroom, and she said that was a horrible thing to do. And so I thought, oh wow, am I glad I'm in New Mexico.

DC: That was her experience in the camp or after she left the camp?

ET: After, wasn't it?

MM: After evacuation. See, they were all, they had to move out of the camp, either go on their own or the government was paying their way back where they want to go. I don't know too much about it but my girlfriend, she went through some misery.

ET: So we don't understand what it was to be in a camp.

DC: Were you in touch with a lot of people who were in camps?

ET: I wasn't that much, but then still...

MM: We were the minority who didn't, who went on our own. My dad just, three girls and a boy, he says, "No, we're not going to go into camp and struggle in a little bedroom, one-room house," and so he decided we're going to come back and he did contact the deputy marshal there, federal man, and he said, "Well, come on back, we'll take care of you," so we drove back.

DC: So that was very uncommon, right, for people not to go to camp?

CM: Besides their family, there's a very rare few that had an outside interest from California. Because they came from New Mexico into California, so it was easy for them to go back to New Mexico during this war crisis. But others were all California, well, they had no place to go, there was no connection outside of their, within their state or city or whatever. And so, you know, it was a big shock. They were well settled down and then this war broke out, well, they have to... lost everything what they established and all the hard work they had put in to make a good living. And they were comfortable there and doing well, and then the outbreak of the war that destroyed everything.

DC: What was it like for your parents to have to leave the business?

MM: Well, you know, they didn't complain too much.

ET: They didn't say too much, but they... we used to sell meat, too, so somebody says, "Oh, there's a lot of lunchmeat and stuff, just pack it in your refrigerator and you can eat it on the road." [Laughs] But anyway, we had to leave a lot of... well, all the groceries, a lot of canned, whatever we were selling we had to leave. And I remember they delivered a new walk-in refrigerator that my dad bought, and we couldn't, there's nothing we could do with it, had to leave it.You didn't have time to sell it or anything, so we just... but I think my dad said, "Well, just leave it, we'll just go."

DC: Did your parents express any frustration or resentment?

MM: You know, my folks never showed us any kind of thinking, "Well, we don't know what we're going to do for you," this or that, they never said anything like that, no, just the natural...

ET: They were good to us. We were spoiled.

MM: I don't think we were spoiled. We were intelligent. We didn't want to give our folks a lot of problem either, you know.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

DC: Is there anything else you want to say about what your life was like around the war years?

MM: I don't know... you know what? I was, we were lucky really.

ET: Yeah, we were.

MM: Where I went to work to take care of the little baby and all, Mrs. Katzen says, "Mary, you can stay here and go to school." And I says, well, that's nice, so I looked around and I can walk to this commercial, no, it was Browning's, Browning's bookkeeping or something. So I went to talk about it and I said, "I can come in the morning or in the afternoon after I do my work at the house over there for the lady." And Mrs. Katzen says, "No, Mary, why don't you go full time?" I says, "I can't do that coming from, coming here and staying with you and then going to school full time." And so I went half a day to school, and then one day Mrs. Browning, the teacher, the owner of the school, says, "Mary, I'm going to ask one thing of you: will you take over my bookkeeping class for one month while I go on vacation, and when I get back I'll get a job for you." Oh, what can you do? I said sure. I wasn't a bookkeeping teacher but I pretended. And then all the other students says, "You cheated. That's why you had your good work done." I said, "No, I didn't cheat." The teacher knew already, you know. And so she says, "Just take over the bookkeeping class for one month that's all. And when I get back, I will place you." What can you say, huh?

DC: And then did you get a job as a bookkeeper afterwards?

MM: Yeah, I worked for... Springer Transfer Company for quite a while. And you know what? I never knew anything about spittoons. And this office, they've got things set up, there's this desk, that desk, I says, "What are those things?" That's how, that's how, you know, innocent I was. Said, "Oh, those are spittoons." "What do you do with them?" I says, "Take that away from my desk. I mean it, you know." I tell you, that was the funniest thing I ever... at my age I didn't know what a spittoon was. I didn't know, because I never was introduced to things like that. And so finally I said... oh but it's not bad working here. I had a big old bookkeeping machine and all, and you know. Working. And I says, "One thing, you've got to remove that thing from my desk." And they did. And so I worked there quite a while. I had a nice boss, and then I left for Los Angeles. I told my folks, "I think I'll go to California and see if I can get a job over there." And I stayed with my aunt for a few weeks, and got a job at a bank in Pasadena, California. I went straight into bookkeeping, and I worked there for a while, then I decided, well, now, I've got to get something more interesting, so I went to main street in Los Angeles and I went into different kind of place. And there was a... I think it's more of bonds and...

CM: Aikin Lambert stock and bond.

MM: Stock and bond place, and I thought, well, this will be interesting, and they gave me a job. So... and in that place, the lady that was working there, who was going to help me out, was an elderly lady, and we got along so well she taught me everything. She did, and we became real good friends. And she had a sister that lived in San Gabriel, California, and she, and they invited me over to their house and fixed dinner and everything, you know. And I was really lucky. And I worked at Aikin Lambert for a long time. Pretty soon I was working bookkeeping and now I was answering phones. And so finally the boss came to me and says, "I wonder if you'd do me a favor." I says, "What?" He says, "Will you take over my ledger while I'm gone because I don't want anybody else working on my ledger, because," he says, "My work is messy but you do a beautiful job." So I thought, well, I says, "Okay, I'll do it." And I worked on his ledger while he was gone. Anyway, he came back, I got a raise, isn't that wonderful? Really, I didn't have to ask for it. He just gave me a raise and I says, "Wow, this is fine." Now I was the telephone operator. She had to take off for a while, so he says, "Would you take over the telephone place?" "Oh, of course," and I learned that. Pretty soon I get another raise, see? That was nice. I'll never forget that company. They're out of business now but they were bonds and, you know, something I never thought about. First of all they gave me a sheet and the, I says, "One million dollars? What in the heck are they doing with a million dollars?" So I went to the boss, I says, "I don't understand." He says, "Mary, you're working the broker's job." And they took me in, just taught me everything, and this little lady that was there before me, she showed me a lot, too.

DC: So how long did you work for that company?

MM: Oh, until I got married. Then I came home to Albuquerque and I got married.

DC: I see. So what was it like for you to be back in California?

MM: It was nice, you know. I bought a car, and my brother was going to university at USC, and so I said, "Look, I'll keep the car weekdays, and you can have the car on weekends," because he was going to school and all. And so we got along pretty well. I didn't use the car too much, but I was able to drive the freeway. When you can drive the freeway in Los Angeles, you're doing good, I'll tell you.

ET: It's worse now I'll bet you.

MM: I'll bet is worse.

DC: And about what year was it that you went back to California?

MM: Gee... it's been so long I forget the date but it was, it was even before I was married so, huh, Charlie?

DC: Just a few years after the war ended?

MM: Huh?

DC: Was it just a few years after the war ended?

MM: Oh, yeah.

DC: And then when you were there for the second time, did it feel different? Did it feel safer for Japanese Americans there, did you have to worry?

CM: The war was over by then.

MM: By then the war was over, yeah. But you know something, it's an experience all young people should go through.

DC: What's an experience that they should all go through?

MM: I got to learn so much. I know what a spittoon was. [Laughs]

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

DC: So this is the second part of the interview with Evelyn Togami, Mary Matsubara, and Charlie Matsubara. The interview is taking place at Van Citters Historic Preservation on Monday, May 28, 2012, at ten a.m. And this is part of the New Mexico Japanese American Citizens League project on Japanese experiences in New Mexico during World War II. So Charlie, we haven't talked to you too much yet, so I wanted to hear more now about your story. So could we start by talking about your parents, where they came from in Japan and what originally brought them to the U.S.?

CM: Well, my father from Yamaguchi, Japan, arrived in San Francisco in 1906, in the early part of April. And soon after he landed in San Francisco, he was caught into the San Francisco earthquake and almost lost his life in a short period of time. That was his beginning experience. And he was in that San Francisco earthquake.

DC: What an introduction to the U.S.

CM: When you said introduction, when his boat arrived in San Francisco, he saw the American flag and he fell in love so much, the American flag was so beautiful, and through that first experience, all through his life in California, he couldn't wait for a national holiday to come so he could put up his American flag out. And so to this very day, every time I go to the cemetery on these special occasions, I'll give him the American flag, I put it up for him.

DC: Did he continue putting the American flag up even during the war and after the war?

CM: Well on the holidays, that's the time he would, he had his American, I still have his American flag and it's flying today in front of our house. His flag is flying on this Memorial Day.

DC: So he never soured on the American flag, even after all that happened ?

CM: That's right. He just, he just was... well, you know, all the Asian people at least, they were discriminated, they could not become American citizens. It took him fifty years to become American citizen in 1956. He arrived in 1906. And he loved the country but because of that, being Oriental, there's a little discrimination involved, life was a little harder than the rest of them. But you know... but they would work through hard work and they established themselves, and I think they themselves, they did very well.

DC: What about your mother, when did she come over?

CM: She come... gosh, about five or six years later, about 19... I figure it had to be 1912.

DC: Did they know each other in Japan?

CM: No, it's a "picture bride." In those days it was all "picture brides." They exchanged pictures and then they looked through the picture and approval of their family, and they figured this would be a good match.

ET: It would be awful if somebody sent the wrong picture, wouldn't it? I heard they'd done that.

DC: Were they pleased with each other when they met each other?

CM: Yes, I guess so. [Laughs]

MM: They have to take it regardless.

DC: So they got married in San Francisco, and they lived in San Francisco?

CM: What?

DC: And then they lived in San Francisco?

CM: Oh yes, yes. And she was exception of, you know... and then early he stayed there because the passage was so high, money was so tight and hard, but she was one of the few that came on first class. She was one of the fortunate ones. No, because there was a reason for that being she had a little eye problem and due to that, they figured that she may have it difficult to come through. But when you're a first class citizen on a first class, they give you better preference, a better, you know, and she was able to have come without a problem. But that's why there's always a joke about her, she has to be different because she come first class.

DC: Was she also from Yamaguchi Prefecture?

CM: Yes, yes, from a different county but it was the same...

DC: And her family wasn't wealthy, it was just...

CM: No they were just fisherman or farmer, that was their main thing.

DC: And so what kind of business did they set up for themselves in San Francisco?

CM: Well, my folks, when they first come across, well, they have to stop at Honolulu, Hawaii. Then they get steered into the cane, labor help, they got maneuvered with immigration or labor or union or what, I don't know what it is, most of them, they all get herded into Hawaii and work on their cane plantation. And so many, and then from there they come across to the mainland. When they arrive in the mainland, there's a connection, they all get herded into the railroad labor deal. And after that, then they're free to start into business or find other jobs.

DC: I see. So your parents were never in Hawaii right?

CM: Well, he worked in a cane for so many...

DC: And then did he also work on the railroad once he got here?

CM: Oh, yes.

DC: How long did he do that?

CM: When it's a contract, it had to be about a year time.

DC: What state did he work in on the railroad?

CM: Well, all the western states, the Union Pacific.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

DC: And then he went back to San Francisco and started the business?

CM: Well, he started out as a... gosh, I don't know what they call it.

MM: Producer, miso producer.

CM: No, no before that. Well, they had worked at the labor in a restaurant. You know, they start from dishwasher on up. And then he built up a certain capital, then his first business he bought a laundry shop that took in laundry and all that. That was his first business. And then Mother come in there and they helped together. And after that, then he went into this miso business, manufacturing miso. And he was doing quite well, and then from there, that was 1925 that I was five years old. My folks wanted to see my grandparents, so we went back to Japan in 1925 and stayed there for half a year and then come back to U.S.

DC: So that's when you were a little boy?

CM: Right.

DC: Do you remember anything about being in Japan in 1925?

CM: Oh, yes.

DC: What do you remember?

CM: Oh, the steamship, as a, like a tourist there on a steamship, I enjoyed that boat ride, it was very nice. And to Japan, and I had no problem with their food, because we were Japanese, my mother was making Japanese food so it was very simple. But like I said, going back to sanitation system, that was a shocker because it's not like the American style and that was a little problem. But outside of that it was nothing at all. Being Japanese and being in Japan, you've got the same face, so we did all right.

DC: What was it like growing up Japanese American in San Francisco?

CM: I just have a short memory of San Francisco, I was just born there, but at the age of five, went to Japan, and when we come back we settled in Southern California, Los Angeles, right after that.

DC: I see. And did your dad continue his miso manufacturing business in Southern California?

CM: No, he discontinued that, and then he got into working for a flower grower and then got into the florist business. And after a year or so, he was able to start his own business.

DC: Was he a florist then?

CM: Hmm?

DC: Did he start his own flower shop?

CM: Yes.

DC: I see. Did you grow up helping in the flower shop?

CM: Yes.

DC: Did they do any flower arranging, like Japanese style?

CM: No. Well, it was strictly all American style, none of the Japanese flower arrangement thing. It was all retail.

MM: Tell them about when you had to deliver the flower to a funeral house. [Laughs]

CM: Yeah, that was quite an experience. For rosary there you deliver flower and they won't accept it at the front door so you have to go through the back door, you go to the back door you see all kinds of corpse, dead people, you know, they worked on, and oh that was, and that was late evening, that was really scary. That was the worst part of that flower business when you had to deliver to a mortuary late at evening, they want you to go to the back door.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

DC: So how about when you were, you know, even smaller, when you were growing up when you were a little boy in Los Angeles? Who were your friends?

CM: Well, we go to school so your school are your friends.

DC: Did you have any Japanese American friends?

CM: Yeah, we had a few, but they lived in the far distance so we weren't able to visit them often, once or twice a year.

DC: Did you go to Japanese school on Saturdays?

CM: Yes, right.

DC: So you were going to Japanese school from a young age?

CM: Yes, right, right. We used to go one hour, five days a week.

DC: Wow. You went to Japanese school an hour a day on weekdays?

CM: Right, right, right. Right after school they'd have a bus that picked you up and we used to go to class.

DC: Really, you and your siblings? Who went?

MM: When he was young.

CM: Yeah, when I was a young kid, schoolkid. My brother and I used to... three of us, yeah, just the three of us. Ann was still too young for that time

DC: So you have two brothers, and you and one sister, is that right?

CM: Yes.

DC: What are your brothers and sister's names?

CM: Frank Takeo Matsubara. He passed away... and George Haruki Matsubara, and those are the two brothers.

DC: So Frank and George?

CM: Yes.

DC: Or Frank and Ricky?

MM: Rikio was his...

CM: That's his nickname.

DC: Okay, so Ricky and George are the same person, got it. And then you have a sister too?

CM: Yes... Ann Shibata.

DC: Okay. So are you the oldest?

CM: No I'm the third.

DC: You're number three?

CH: Yes. That's why I was no count in the family, you have to be a number one in the family.

DC: So that's Frank?

CM: Yes.

DC: So how did people treat you when you were growing up in Los Angeles? How did non-Japanese people treat you?

CM: Gosh, no difference. We were treated just like any others, and...

DC: What kind of neighborhood did you live in?

CM: Well, it was in Los Angeles, it was in between Los Angeles and Hollywood there... it was in Los Angeles in early 1920s. Well, we had, gosh, combination of all neighborhood. There was black, Filipinos and whites. There was no other Oriental but mostly black and whites neighborhood when we on Beverly boulevard there. And we were all interested in sports so we'd gather all the neighborhood, we gathered and we have all kinds of sport events and... that kid time, well, I think that was the best time, I think.

DC: Did you feel connected to your Japanese heritage when you were growing up?

CM: Well, we learned their tradition. New Year's time is the biggest event in Japanese year. We have Japanese food and there's every food that you taste has a meaning behind that food, that's why you take it. Like seaweed, yorokobu, that mean's happiness, so you take it, eat. What else? Every food that you think of there's a meaning behind it, and she'll make it, Mother would make it for us and give us the meaning and be thankful that food.

DC: Did you have other relatives from Japan living near you?

CM: No, there were no relatives. We had an uncle, but he passed away and he had a wife and kids but we... they moved to Nebraska and so the distance there was just, our relationship faded away because of the distance. And she married for the second time and had, and then she had other kids from that second husband, so it kind of faded out.

DC: So were you pretty much the only Japanese American family in your town?

CM: In our family group?

DC: Were you the only family in town that was Japanese?

CM: Gosh, in Los Angeles that's the main, big group of Japanese in there.

DC: So you were part of a big Japanese community?

CM: Well, my dad associated with the Japanese, joined the Japanese club or a Japanese bank or this and that, had some kind of interest in that way.

DC: Where was the Japanese school, how far away was it?

CM: It was... it was in Hollywood near Sunset Boulevard. So it would be at least five, six miles away.

DC: So you were all grown up already when the war started?

CM: Oh, yes.

DC: Were you still living in southern California at that time?

CM: Yes, in Glendale, California.

DC: Okay.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 15>

DC: So what was it like for you when you heard about Pearl Harbor?

CM: Boy, it was a shock and it really was a sad situation. The weather was beautiful, it was like today, blue sky, nice beautiful weather, and I was out waiting on the customer, and another fellow drove up there and said, "Charlie we're in war, they've bombed us." And boy that was a sad, sad, sad, sad case. And the customer that I was waiting on, she was shocked and she just laid up her basket and she walked away and went home. That was December the 7th about 9:30, 10 o'clock I believe. It was a beautiful day, and you hear that shock, it really hurt.

DC: Why do you think that customer did that?

CM: Well, she was shocking her too and she wanted to more about what happened and so she, she wasn't about ready to go back to her garden and plant the stuff that she had bought. She just left it there and she walked away and I don't blame her.

DC: How did you feel about the fact that it was Japan?

CM: Yes... yeah, my folks were from Japan. He's a citizen of Japan, he couldn't, wanted to be American citizen but because of that there discrimination, they, all Orientals could not be American citizens. And we're American but we're a minor then, most of them are minor age and...

MM: But they did become citizens, our parents did, American citizens.

CM: Yeah, we were American citizens and, but that didn't mean a thing when the war broke out, you were just a... just a...

DC: So during the war, did your parents feel loyal to the U.S.?

CM: Oh yeah, they just said, "Oh, what a shame that we have to be at war." And those early days, being a Japanese citizen in America, but they were not able to be American citizens, that's when they still had their emperor, you know they had an emperor picture on the wall. But when the war broke out, they took down all the emperor, even the flag or whatever, they destroyed it, they didn't want to...

DC: Why did they do that?

CM: For the safety.

DC: So how did things change for your family after Pearl Harbor?

CM: Well it... gosh, I don't know how to put these in words. Well, the public treated us okay. There was no bad feeling whatsoever. Our customers, they still come, you know and... and the rumor was going at that time that the, our folks, Issei, the first generation, they were, they're non-citizens, so they were figured, they're the one that would be round up and be taken. And we understood that. We're American citizens so were going to stay at home and continue. But then a month later when they, 9066 come in February the 19th, I think, that changed everything. One ounce of Japanese blood in you, you're enemy, you're going to be sent to concentration camp or...

DC: Was that a shock when you heard about Executive Order 9066?

CM: Yes, that was a shock. First when they say that our folks, being a non-citizen, would be taken, I understood that rule. But when we were told that we have to go, anybody had one ounce of Japanese blood, they're all going to be picked up, that was a shock.

DC: So was there a different notification first suggesting that your parents would have to go somewhere?

CM: Well, it must be because of the rumor through newspaper or what, I don't know how that worked. But word gets around that the Issei, the first generation, they all going to be round up, so that's the, that's the parents would be all round up.

DC: So you expected your parents to be...

CM: Well, when they said that, well, we expect, being at war and being, that's the difference between the citizens there, we figured, well, that's the way it's going to be.

DC: Where did you think that they would be taken?

CM: Well, see, they were "enemy aliens," and then you hear all kinds of rumor what's going on each day, and for the safety for the U.S. citizens and all that, they have to take that step.

DC: Did people say that the women were being taken in addition to the men?

CM: Well, see, that's the first group that was round up, was they're all prominent people, doctors, lawyers, teachers, big executive people, import-export company people. They were the cream of the crop, they were all round up. That's the group that was settled in Santa Fe.

DC: Yeah, so they did round up a lot of Issei men, but it sounds like there was also a rumor or a fear that they were going to round up all of the Issei?

CM: Yes, right. That was the first rumor, that the Isseis' going to be round up. And when the Issei says that, we figure that, well, we're American citizens so we have the right and they have no rights because they were non-citizens.

<End Segment 15> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 16>

DC: So then they issued Executive Order 9066 and you found...

CM: They gave you thirty days to make your decision to go to the concentration camp or you volunteer to evacuate yourself at an area... Saeda family, they decided to go back to their home in Albuquerque.

DC: So you stayed behind in California for a while?

CM: Yes. My brother and I stayed. We had thirty days to settle up what we have, so we sold whatever we can, five or ten cents to a dollar just to liquidate our stuff, because when you go to the camp, you only had one suitcase to carry, that was your total belonging that you could take.

DC: Did you expect that your family would ever return to Glendale to run the business again?

CM: Yes, I thought so, going back. But they settled in farming there so when, so I became a farmer, too.

DC: Just so I understand, you and Frank stayed?

CM: No not Frank, it was my second brother George.

DC: George, you and George stayed and everybody else went to New Mexico?

CM: Yeah, they did, followed the Saeda family.

DC: And they were already connected by marriage to the Saeda family, right?

ET: Well, Frank was married to our cousin.

CM: That was the connection.

DC: Okay. And the Saedas had a connection in Albuquerque so they could go.

CM: Yes, right.

DC: And were you required to have a connection in order to move inland instead of going to a camp?

CM: Well, for the volunteer, they have to get a traveling permit to leave the state of California during that thirty-day period.

DC: So most people couldn't go.

CM: Right, well, they had no outside connection to go to. You have to have a connection otherwise they won't give you that permit.

DC: So did you think about going with them?

CM: No. I had to... for thirty days I said I've got to settle up the property, what we have here, so I volunteered myself... the family, you guys go ahead, I'm going to settle up here and meet you later on afterwards.

DC: So were you expecting that you would have to go to a camp if you stayed behind?

CM: Oh, yes.

DC: Really? What were you expecting the camp to be like?

CM: Well there was all kinds of rumor, it was dusty, dirty, the food, no Japanese food whatsoever, and... well, I think in the first experience, when I first arrived at the camp, then they took us to the mess camp and the menu was this: beans, canned weenies, a hard roll, and applesauce. That was the meal. And I said, well this is not a good meal, but you won't starve to death.

DC: So how did you come to the decision that you were going to stay behind and try to tie up...

CM: Well, we worked so darn hard establishing our business, we... folks, we had a florist business and a garden shop on the side, and I took care of the garden shop and the folks took care of the florist, and we were well established. We had a lot of financial set up there and, and I said, "Well, I'm not just going to leave all this behind and go volunteer." I said, "I'm going to stay here and settle what we could get out of it." And like I said, it's five to ten cents on the dollar, so there were a lot of people.

DC: Did your family own a home, too?

CM: Huh?

DC: Did your family own a home, too?

CM: No, we had it leased. But we had the business, then you had all the fixtures and all that, and the delivery trucks and all that. And we could not take any vehicles to the camp or anything, you had to get rid of all that.

DC: So how long did you think you'd be in the camp?

CM: No idea.

DC: So wasn't that scary?

CM: But you know, camp life was a easy, lazy life. You just sit in there and they'll feed you and, you know... not the best of food but it was just the GI army food they served. But as the days went by, they improved their menu. They changed it to suit our taste. They were able to get rice and feed us rice.

<End Segment 16> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 17>

DC: Did you go to an assembly center before you went to Manzanar?

CM: No, went direct to Manzanar, straight, that's about 225 mile northeast of Los Angeles. Took a bus. There was about twenty buses that went up there at one time.

DC: What was the housing like?

CM: Well it was a... made out of all wood, and the outside wall was weatherproof wallpaper with chicken wire. And the barrack was... one barrack is divided by four, there's 16 x 20 barracks, and then they put eight to ten people in each barrack. They had the single army beds.

DC: Were you and George together?

CM: Yes.

DC: You got to stay in the same barrack?

CM: Oh, yes. And we was in the bachelor group, it was all bachelor group. We were bachelors so we had a bachelor group.

DC: Were with anybody else that you knew?

CM: Yeah, some of the classmates we knew.

DC: What else do you remember about the conditions, the environment, or the facilities?

CM: Well I was in the emergency crew, we did anything, the emergency we'd have to do... we put in a lot of hard work in there, we worked forty cents a day, that was our salary, twelve dollars a month, eight to ten hours a day.

DC: Was that a good salary back then or a bad salary?

CM: We just say it's better than nothing. But we really worked hard, forty cents a day.

DC: Like for example, how much --

CM: And the idea was to comfort the people that's in the camp, make you work good so everybody would be comfortable. With that in mind, it's not the forty cents, it's the comfort of the people in camp and there was 10,000 of us in that camp. And I still remember my address over there... what is it? Block 15, Barrack 8, Room 3. [Laughs]

DC: So forty cents was significantly less than people were making outside of the camp?

CM: Well, it's better than nothing. That was the only thing.

DC: But how much could you make before you were in the camp in a day?

CM: Oh, gosh, I don't know. Well, I was dumb on that, in camp there. We sold things at five or ten cents to a dollar, but I'd accumulate so much at camp, they said you have to report all your income. I was stupid enough, that was the income that we sold five cents a dollar that was cost and below, and I put that as a main income. And I was the only one in camp that was foolish enough to pay income tax while I was in camp. I was dumb.

DC: So, can you walk us through a typical day at Manzanar? When you wake up in the morning until you go to bed at night?

CM: Oh, you wake up so you, then a gong ring the breakfast time, you go to the mess hall, you have your breakfast, then you report to work.

DC: Tell me more about your work.

CM: Our first job was to, when the barrack goes up, there's no landscape or nothing, there's just a barrack there, we would clean up the barrack and clean up the surrounding for the next group to come in. And because all the big contractors, they put up the barrack but they won't do the cleanup job, it was us cleaning up all the jobs to make it livable.

DC: Did you feel like you were making it livable?

CM: Oh yeah, we tried to help each other to make, you know, as comfortable as possible. With that we worked otherwise, be foolish, a lot of them were foolish, they wouldn't even do that.

DC: What happened after work?

CM: Well, recreation, we'd play baseball, basketball, whatever . And some classes, they're, they had a lot of spare time so there's a lot of well-educated, talented people, they'd become a instructor and teach these various people for their project or you know, flower arrangement, wood carving, or all that. They had time so they, out of nothing they made some very nice...

DC: Art?

CM: Yes.

DC: Did you participate in any of the classes?

CM: No, I was not that talented. I was more on the sport end of the deal. I played a lot of basketball and softball.

DC: And then you had dinner after recreation?

CM: Oh, yes.

DC: Then what?

CM: Well, then you had your free time at evening there and people would take judo class or whatever .

DC: So what were your emotions when you were there at the camp?

CM: Well, the camp life, the idea is you just survive, there's nothing there for you unless you take special interest in certain things that they were teaching on the side, not the government project, but individual have their craft to teach.

DC: When you were there, did you feel like you made the right decision, staying behind to sell the business and then going to camp, or did you wish that you had gone to New Mexico, too?

CM: Well, I thought I made the right decision to stay back and clear up all the matters. At least you had something to start. We had what we made in camp, of course, you had.

DC: For when the war ended?

CM: Right.

<End Segment 17> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 18>

DC: So what was the hardest thing about being at the camp?

CM: Hardest thing was we volunteered to harvest sugar beets in Montana. They had labor shortage, they had the crop out in the field but they had no labor to harvest. They asked for volunteers to help. And we were young there, and we thought well this would be a good opportunity to see the outside world again, and so we volunteered. Five of us... well, they took more than us, but we're within group, five. And we contract 60 or 75 acres to harvest, harvest beets, and that beets is one of the hardest jobs in the farm, farm field. And I was, we were all city boy, we had no experience in farming, and tackling the hardest job in farming. It was very difficult; it was hard, it was really hard. And that's the time, living conditions, you go out Montana there, was just... your living quarters almost like a horse stable there, no insulation nothing, just a wood stove and bed. And that's... camp life was so easy that the mess hall was there for the food and you just have to go there when the bell rings to eat, but when you go outside, after you put in 10, 12 hour, come back, then you have to cook your own meal. That was very difficult and hard. That was a lesson, you know, to this day that you... it helped make me a stronger person, to be able to fight hard, hardship.

DC: So was everybody on the farm a Japanese American who came from a camp?

CM: No, they're not all, there's quite a few at that time, you know. Main project, big project was that farming was their main line. But all the ones that volunteered, they were not all farmers, they were a lot of, like us, city ones there and had a very hard time.

DC: So when you went to Montana, you were under contract, but were you basically released from the camp?

CM: Oh, yes. You are, but you have to go through all that channel there and every bus...they had a nurse, not a nurse but was army. Then on each bus take us to the depot, from the depots, go on the train, and every time you go through the, through a city, we had to pull our train shade down so the public won't see us.

DC: So when you got to Montana, were you under guard at the farm or were you free to...

CM: No, no, we were not under guard.

DC: So could you go where you wanted on your days off in Montana?

CM: Well, you're limited to that small area, there's no place to go in Montana, it's a wide open country, neighbors about 10 miles apart.

DC: We you required to stay there at the farm?

CM: Oh, yes.

DC: How long was your contract there?

CM: Contract was to finish your contract... that's the experience I had and I passed it on to the other younger generation. The work was hard, so the first week comes, we took a day off. And the second week we got a little stronger, we took a half a day off. So we lost day and a half. We had just one acre left to finish our contract, here comes the Canadian chinook storm, snow piled up 2 foot high. Because of the contract there we could not, we had to wait for that snow to melt off, thaw out, and to finish our contract or we won't be able to leave, we had to stay there. So that was a lesson that whenever you have any kind of job, forget the day off. You finish the job and take a day off after you finish. So that's a good experience through hardship that we learned and I pass it on to the younger generation, do your job first before you enjoy a day off.

DC: So when you finished your contract, I know the war ended pretty soon around that time...

CM: The war wasn't over then.

DC: So did you go back to Manzanar?

CM: Oh yes, we went right back to Manzanar. And we were happy to be back. [Laughs]

DC: Were you able to keep in touch with your family while you were there?

CM: Oh, yes.

DC: Could they visit you?

CM: Yeah, through the mail.

DC: Could they visit?

CM: No.

DC: Because they were too far away or because it wasn't...

CM: It's too far away.

DC: Did you feel very lonely?

CM: You feel lonely at the special occasion, on holidays, that's when the, even in camp family get together. When you're single and bachelor there you don't have that, that's when you miss, on holiday. On ordinary day, there's so many other activity going on, had no hard feelings there.

DC: So when exactly did you go to Montana and how long were you there?

CM: It was late April of '42 and left there in late May of '43.

DC: So you were there for more than one year?

CM: Yes.

DC: Wow.

DC: Yes, boy, I learned how to dig graves too, volunteer there... I buried, we buried the first six people that died in Manzanar. And we were called, there's the gravedigger group, that was us. But that volunteer ended because each block had their responsibility for that person that died in their block, so they had to take care of that. So every year there's a memorial service at Manzanar and there's a group of people that goes there. And I say well I got a couple of footprints I left behind.

DC: What did the people die of?

CM: Oh, the older ones there, quite a few died of cancer.. And we buried a lot of young kids.

DC: Really? Why did they die?

CM: Gosh, I have no idea. But they had a good hospital there. They had it set up nice.

DC: So you were part of a volunteer group that dug graves or it was part of your paid job at Manzanar?

CM: Well, it was a volunteer group, but they had no else to do the job. It was easy for us to do that. We did all kinds of odds and ends jobs there. And then each block took care of their own group. See, there was almost forty blocks and each block had sixteen barrack, I think.

DC: So your volunteer group was for your block?

CM: Well, we volunteered for the first, we were the beginning group there, we took care of the whole.

DC: And then later they developed one group per block?

CM: Right, so we didn't have to do that anymore.

<End Segment 18> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 19>

DC: When you were at Manzanar, were you ever asked to answer a "loyalty questionnaire"?

CM: Yes.

DC: What did you do?

CM: When that question arrived, I wrote a letter back to my brother Frank who's the oldest in the family. I wanted his viewpoint, how we should answer. And he says, "Answer 'yes.'"

DC: So you're talking about the two questions, 27 and 28 right?

CM: Right, right.

DC: So the first question was about whether you'd be willing to serve in the armed forces and combat duty right?

CM: Right, right.

DC: And the second one was about forswearing any allegiance to Japan. So why did you answer the way you did?

CM: Well, you're a citizen there, you're American citizen, what else are you going to do, you have to be loyal to your country.

DC: Did you feel obligated to answer "yes" or was it how you really felt in your heart?

CM: Well, I felt that I have to say yes... where are you going to go afterwards? This is your country, this is your home. And yes, we just have to live through it and you get over it and do the best we can.

DC: Did you feel any ambivalence towards the U.S. government because of what was happening to you and your brother?

CM: Yes. You losing your citizenship right, that really hurt me. And I think they said, well, there's a wrong there.

DC: Did you expect that things would get better after the war, or did you think that justice would prevail somehow?

CM: Well, all the family was in Albuquerque, this is their country there and we're waiting for our time to get okay to leave Manzanar.

DC: When you were in Manzanar, what did you think it was like outside of the camp?

CM: Well the... through the Montana experience there, outside of camp, you're going to have to really work hard to make a living. Well, camp life the government was paying, spending what 100, 125 million to feed us there and that become too much of a burden for U.S., for us, feed us, so the U.S. people say, oh, you could go back, but not to California, go to other eastern city, you could relocate.

<End Segment 19> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 20>

DC: So you were eventually allowed to relocate?

CM: Right.

DC: Did you have to wait for the war to end?

CM: No, because I had a, like Saeda family and family lived in Albuquerque, had a little connection there so they know where we going to be, so it was easy to get the permit to leave.

DC: Oh okay, so how long did that take?

CM: Oh, within a month, and people that went to other cities, they had a contact with a company or they have a job for them.

DC: So when did you leave Manzanar?

CM: Boy, it was '43, in May.

DC: So shortly after you came back from Montana?

CM: Yeah, Montana was in the fall of '42. That was Halloween night, I'll never forget October 31st, and 2 foot of snow.

DC: The snow. Then you waited for the snow to melt and you finished your contract, right?

CM: Right, we have to wait for that to thaw out, not only melt to thaw out the ground, it's frozen solid, you can't pull a beet out of frozen ground.

DC: So you had to wait until spring?

CM: No, we just had to wait another... but we ate up all our profit.

DC: So you managed to finish your contract in Montana in fall of '42 and then you went back to Manzanar?

CM: Right.

DC: And you were in Manzanar until early 1943.

CM: Right.

DC: I see. And then you finally ended up in New Mexico, and it was your first time in New Mexico?

CM: Yes, that's the first time. The first time and that's when I learned how to farm. It's either you farm or you starve, for survival and we put in long hours ten, twelve hours a day.

DC: Who were you working for?

CM: We're working the family group, the family farm.

DC: So did you move into the house where Evelyn and Mary were living?

CM: No... my family had, Matsubaras had their own house.

DC: Was it nearby, though?

CM: Huh?

DC: Was it nearby their house?

CM: Yes.

DC: Did you share that dining hall with them?

CM: No that was individual there.

DC: And when did you meet Mary and decide to get married? Well, you knew each other before, right?

CM: Yeah.

MM: Actually, we didn't really know each other that well, but see, his brother was married to my cousin, and that's how. But that's okay, huh?

ET: Too late now... over fifty years.

MM: Fifty-seven years we've been married. You see, we're almost a hundred.

DC: How long did it take before you got married once you got to New Mexico?

MM: Over a year because I was working in California. And I didn't want to come home, you know, I was having too much fun.

DC: So did you come back and then start dating and...

MM: No I come back to get married.

DC: Oh, so you had already decided to get married?

MM: We were engaged already.

DC: Wow.

MM: But he was so busy working, you know.

DC: So would you say that going to camp at Manzanar had any long-term effects on you?

CM: Yes, because of the hardship there, that was in... because of the hardship experiences, that helped my life be stronger. Because I didn't, we couldn't go down, it made me a stronger person because of the hardships.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 21>

DC: What did you do over the subsequent decades? You're not a farmer now, right?

CM: I still have a garden, if you call that farming. I have eggplants and a few squash and a tomato, that's my farming now. So if you connect that together I'd be farming over seventy years.

DC: Did you do another job besides farming, or were you a farmer your whole career?

MM: He was a nurseryman.

CM: Yeah, I was a nurseryman and then... I would say farming had been in the longest there. Yeah, it's hard work, but...

MM: It paid off.

DC: So you ran a nursery?

CM: Well, a small one. And when we was in California, the folks had a florist shop and a garden supply on the side, a little nursery there, and I took care of the nursery there. That's when the war broke out.

DC: And then in New Mexico you farmed?

CM: Yes, nothing but farm, straight farming in New Mexico.

DC: Wow, okay. So did you have a farm, where was your farm?

CM: Here in Albuquerque.

DC: Inside the city?

CM: Yes, within the city.

DC: I see. What kinds of things did you grow?

CM: It was all vegetable. And the best money-making vegetable was green chili. That was the best, because you'd be able to not go through a warehouse or... you sell it direct and so your earnings would be better percentage. You don't have to go through another hand.

MM: Yeah, he did 50 acres of green chili only. And to try to sell all that through a little store...

ET: But you sold it all, so that's okay.

MM: She had 100 acres, she and her husband.

<End Segment 21> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 22>

DC: So what about the rest of you, do you think that having to leave California made a lasting impression on you?

MM: Hmm?

DC: Would you say that having to leave California made a lasting impression on you or had a long-term effect on you?

MM: No, no. I was coming home, my folks were here and my sister... no, my brother wasn't here, he was in school.

DC: How about you, Evelyn?

ET: No, I've always been happy regardless. The war was bad but then you can't dwell on it.

MM: The only thing about her, she lost her husband too early, I think. He passed away. That's what I...

ET: Well, no, it's just that, if I hadn't lived this long it would be...

CM: She's the fortunate one, she know how to stay happy, you know.

MM: Well, she got Stevie and he's a great guy.

DC: You all have kids right?

ET: I do, but they don't. I have two boys and a girl.

MM: But you know something, I've got nieces that call us Grandma, Grandpa -- no, Uncle.

CM: They call her Grandma and they call me Uncle, how do you like that difference? [Laughs]

DC: [Laughs] That's funny.

[Interruption]

DC: How do you feel now when you look back at what happened to your families during the war?

MM: You know, I don't think about it. It doesn't bother me. No, it doesn't.

ET: Why worry?

MM: Exactly.

ET: You know, why worry about it, it's already passed.

CM: Yeah, it's over, we survived, here we are.

DC: Do you hold any grudge?

ET: Well, he has more to probably because of the camp, but with us coming out here was a little different I think.. Because we've talked to different people that's been in camp that were not very happy, so must have been hard for them.

DC: Charlie, how do you feel about it now?

CM: Well, I feel grateful that I'm going to be ninety-two next week and I feel pretty good. I'm thankful for that. I didn't think I was going to live this long and I gained over fifty years. I thought I'd be gone in mid-forties.

MM: You know, it's funny, when you hit ninety, you think, oh my gosh what a blessing, really. You wait 'til you hit ninety, it's a blessing.

CM: Every day is a bonus and a blessing and we're enjoying it.

DC: How long did it take you to get to this point where you were not angry about Manzanar? I don't want to put words in your mouth, maybe you were never angry, but...

CM: Well, all your angry part is before the war when all the, not only us, all the Japanese established and they're living comfortably, and the war broke out and you lose everything what you put in, the setback, and we have to recover and work back to that position. When you get to that point, you get mad and angry.

DC: How do you feel like your life would have been different if that hadn't happened?

CM: Well, it should have been better than what it is, that you have that much a head start because no interruption. But we have to start from scratch. All of them have to, 120,000 had to start from scratch from the floor up again. That was a big sacrifice we had to put in, and that, when you think of that, it hurts.

<End Segment 22> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 23>

DC: So this is part three of the interview on Japanese experiences in New Mexico during World War II. We wanted to ask you if you knew about the internment camps for the Issei that were located in New Mexico while they were open?

MM: The one in Santa Fe? We knew about it.

DC: What were you thoughts about the existence of those camps and about people of Japanese descent being held there while you were living here in Albuquerque?

MM: Well, I do know that one of my friend's father was in Santa Fe. And then of course there were a lot of Buddhist priests, huh?

CM: Yasuda.

MM: Yeah, and another friend, huh? But I remember when my... when To-chan passed away we went to Santa Fe to see if one of the Buddhist priest or reverend would come out for the service, and I don't know whether they did come or not, did they? They have to get, have an excuse to come out anyway, but I can't remember that far back, for her funeral, do you remember?

ET: No I can't remember that she tried to get anybody.

MM: We tried at Santa Fe but I don't know what happened. It's funny, you know, when you get to be almost a hundred, I tell them don't get mad at me, I says I can, I deserve to forget sometimes. Isn't that right?

DC: Absolutely.

CM: The reason why, because we had no direct family member in Santa Fe.

MM: Just friends.

CM: So if you have direct family member, then you have more close contact and know about Santa Fe, but since we didn't have those...

ET: We just heard that there was a camp. In fact, did I go with you, Steve, or... no it, no, he wasn't born yet I don't think. Wait a minute, no he was, but the they had a meeting or something in Santa Fe, so I went and it was kind of at a hill up there in Santa Fe. They had a real nice monument looking thing, but that's about it. I don't know anybody else that was in there. Even the one in Lordsburg, is it? I've heard about different ones but I don't know of anybody being there.

DC: So when the camps were open, did you think much about them?

ET: Well, I wondered who they were and how, you know, I bet they weren't having a good time. They were elderly men, you know, so I'm sure they had a rough time. I don't know because I haven't talked to any of them.

CM: Santa Fe was all man camp.

DC: So do you think that there are any lessons that we can learn from your experiences that are applicable to society or politics today?

MM: Well, you know, I don't think anybody in the high level care about what we think because they're determined to do it their way.

ET: I don't know, not knowing those guys, I don't want to say. Maybe they might have thought good about it but yet maybe they didn't want to say anything. I don't know.

DC: Which guys?

ET: The head guys, the big guys. [Laughs]

DC: You were saying you don't think something like this could happen today.

CM: No.

MM: I don't think so, I don't think so. I think all our generations are old enough to voice whatever we feel, whereas we didn't during the war time.

CM: And another thing that, intermarriage is taking place. That makes a big difference in the feeling. Before, it was all Japanese more or less, ninety-nine percent of it. Now it's 50-50 about, intermarriage.

MM: But we all get along. You know, we all get together and we all get along. And sometimes some of those Japanese girls got some good looking men, huh?

<End Segment 23> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 24>

DC: How have your feelings about the country evolved or about your citizenship evolved? You said during the war you felt like your citizenship wasn't worth anything. How do you feel about it now?

CM: Well, I feel great. I'm alive and I'm American citizen and I broke no law and I feel free and I feel good. I think I did my part.

DC: Is there anything else that you'd like people to know about Japanese American history during World War II or about the experiences of Japanese Americans in New Mexico?

MM: I haven't heard too many people complain, but if they complained, I don't know what about.

ET: Maybe they're not telling us.

MM: That's true.

ET: Of course, we don't have too many, not too many here in New Mexico left, you know. Some of the people that were in camp they've gone back or passed away. I mean, they've gone back to California or Nevada.

DC: Charlie, do you have any concluding thoughts?

CM: Well, the only thing that... the Japanese part is thinning out. It's... unless the next wave of Japanese, group from Japan comes in and keep up the Japanese custom and their things. As way things are going now locally here, it's all thinning out and the intermarriage, it thins it out. And it loses real true feeling of the custom. Now all customs are not all perfect, but I liked it. Many of the Japanese customs, they should continue.

DC: Like which ones in particular?

CM: Well, you know, their custom is to carry on and fight and get the job done.

MM: Well, the young generations now, they're so happy as is.

CM: Well, they've got their good education, they don't have to work as hard as we did.

MM: They've got the good education. Went to UNM graduation and I was so happy to see so many people graduate now in the field of pharmacy. Oh, gee, that was a, there was just a bunch of them, they got doctor degrees. Did you know that? That's the first time I realized.

CM: You know, then she's now talking about education. During our period of time, college education, they were brilliant, they got scholarship to college, after graduation there were no jobs for them, so many of them went to Japan to get the job to use their degrees and education. Now that's changed now. So you have education now, it's wide open for us. So all of them are going to higher education. At that early stage, the education was fine, you got... but there were no job for Oriental at that time, and that was a really, really... our folks said, "Well, you Nisei better go into more on the skill side, get into business." But through college education with that degree, there's no jobs for you. That was a setback there, but now it has changed completely.

MM: It's changed now.

ET: This last class of pharmacy, everybody had, according to them, they all had a job somewhere.

MM: It was amazing. They called our name out and they tell us where they're going to go work already. It's amazing.

ET: We had one in our family too and he's working at the university this year. He just graduated.

DC: This is a grandson of yours?

ET: It would be my nephew... no, wait a minute, it's my son...

MM: It's your grandson.

ET: Grandson, my grandson, yeah. He's my second oldest, right? Yeah, and then I had two more, and then I have to great granddaughters.

DC: Wow.

MM: And we're so happy because we're really...

CM: You're a grandma, I'm an uncle still. [Laughs]

DC: Well, we should wrap up, unless there's anything that you'd like to say?

MM: Thank you very much.

DC: Well, thank you.

MM: I hope you learned something from us.

DC: It was very informative.

DC: You're going to have to cut about ninety-nine percent of the film. [Laughs]

<End Segment 24> - Copyright © 2012 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.