<Begin Segment 4>

AR: So we're still in Clovis. How were the Japanese laborers and workers treated on and off the job in Clovis?

RE: You know, it's hard to say. Most of these families very seldom socialized with Caucasian families or any other families. They... I guess the men diligently and loyally worked at the Santa Fe Railroad. But other than that, the social activities were limited amongst themselves within that so-called "Jap camp."

AR: Now Professor Collier uncovered commendations that the Japanese were consistently being, you know, recognized by their supervisors for loyalty and hard work and they were well-liked workers.

RE: I think it goes back to their background going back to Japan when they were, that was the thing... anybody who worked for somebody else, that loyalty was the most important thing, yeah.

AR: Did you ever have a sense at that time, and maybe even a little later, because your dad continued to work finding new employment during the war, but did you ever have a sense of what he was working toward? Was he planning to buy property someday or did he just work to make a better life for his children or what was the...

RE: It's hard to say. I would imagine my dad would've liked to show his father that he's capable of doing just as well as he did. I think that's all... that was because of his skill and his knowledge that he was gonna probably want to prove that he could do that. However, my dad came to the realization through time, that racial discrimination was a big impediment in his road to succeeding in doing anything. Obviously I think when he came across country on the railroad, realized the vastness of this country and the potential for industrial development, but I think he pretty much gave up as time went, but it was, he was rejuvenated so to speak when we had the opportunity to get out of the camp in Topaz, Utah, to come to Cleveland where he was finally given the opportunity to work utilizing his skills as a tool and die maker. When the young men in America were going off to fight in the war, World War II, my dad was now replacing them and working in a war plant. And I think he was just elated that he could now use that as a stepping stone to more, greater successes.

AR: Well, and during the war he probably got union scale and pretty good pay and not a dual wage scale like he had in Clovis.

RE: Yeah, Dad was very proud of that. And I think I mentioned earlier that it was interesting that for our survival after Pearl Harbor, when my dad and all the Japanese railway workers were no longer employed, he was always worried about putting food on the table. But Mr. Morris, Mr. Morris was the local grocer who always, we shopped over there, realized the predicament in which we were in and extended... offered my dad credit for all the groceries. So for that period of time that we were in Clovis, remained in Clovis until January 24th, obviously he ran up a big credit, eighty dollars was a huge hunk of money. But there was absolutely no way my dad could pay him back during those times that we were incarcerated. So when he got that job in Cleveland we were still able to put food on the table but he made sure that as soon as possible he had a money order sent out to Mr. Morris to pay him back and he was very appreciative, and Mr. Morris was appreciative of that.

AR: This is maybe a smaller detail, and maybe you don't, I don't know if you have any memory of it, but at that time, you know, the Japanese are kind of confined to the camp, did Mr. Morris deliver groceries or did your dad go over and get them?

RE: No, it was that we always picked it up. Either the kids, us kids went with my older brothers and sisters with a wagon, or they certainly carted it back.

AR: I wonder if any special arrangements were made, though, during that crisis period when the camp was kind of shut down?

RE: I don't believe so. I don't recall that. I never thought about how the other families fared. They must've been under the same, similar circumstances, or credit.

AR: Uh-huh, okay. Back in that period and, of course, before the war started, did the Japanese residents of Clovis get Japanese newspapers, like via the railroad network?

RE: Yes, they did. I'm not so sure that my parents did, but obviously, when they were finished with the newspaper they probably would give it to my dad to read. But yes, they did.

AR: I should specify, it's like Japanese American newspapers, vernacular press.

RE: Well, there was a newspaper published in San Francisco or Los Angeles called the Rafu Shimpo. I do recall some of those newspaper coming out. Some parts were apparently in English and most of the parts were in Japanese.

AR: Something like 90 percent of the immigrants, even from the small, the poor farming families were literate, so most of the people read the newspapers.

RE: That's true. Absolutely they were able to read.

AR: Do you recall any outstanding Japanese American students or athletes in your area? This is kind of a generic question I tend to ask, but...

RE: Athletic or had the ability... I really don't know. From what I gather, my oldest brother wasn't too interested in sports. Obviously he didn't have the formal education earlier on, so he concentrated on being self-taught as much as possible. And my brother Hank, of course, was the water boy for the football team, but other than that I really don't know that anybody within the camp participated in sports. Somebody told me that Mr. Hatae's son was pretty good in wrestling or something of that sort, martial arts, I don't know, judo, maybe. But other than that I never really heard of anybody accomplishing anything.

AR: Sometime it might be good to go through the school yearbooks for Clovis and see if there were any students that stood out.

RE: I don't think anybody...

AR: Probably not, because very few went to the public schools and....

RE: That's right. If it's true that they didn't go to the public school, obviously they didn't participate in sports. But our family, no, nobody really participated in sports.

AR: Okay.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2008 New Mexico JACL and Densho. All Rights Reserved.