<Begin Segment 1>

LD: Your father sent you... can you tell me a little bit about your background here in Hawaii as far as Japanese language is concerned? My question is, how did you learn your Japanese language, and when did you start, tell me about Japanese language school and becoming a Kibei. When you went. "I learned my Japanese language..."

KY: I learned my Japanese language, actually, when I first went to Japan. When we were kids, our parents sort of forced us to go to language school, that is, what they wanted us to learn the language and culture of Japan. But being raised in the islands here with a lot of ethnic groups, and, of course, during those days, there was a strong anti-Japanese feeling, and the policies of the schools at that time were one language, English. And they discouraged the use of foreign languages. And one of the chief objections the government had was to stop any use and education of the Japanese language. In fact, I think the Japanese language school problem was fought for a long time until it went to, I think, the U.S. Supreme Court, where I think the Japanese language school advocates had won.

LD: How did you, as a young boy, feel about going to Japanese language school? I know you had to, you had to obey your father, but how did you feel about going to Japanese language school?

KY: Japanese language is not the language itself, because the Chinese schools were very, at that time, very flourishing. The Chinese kids used to go to Chinese school, Japanese kids used to go. But we used to go just for the sake of our parents, but actually, our heart wasn't in it. So we stayed an hour, and even in that hour we absorbed something, but we never got a good education in Japanese. Although they had other subjects, ethics and morals and so forth. That was a good guideline for us.

LD: What kind of ethics? What kind of things did you learn about in Japanese language school? What kinds of things did they teach you about ethics and morals?

KY: Oh, for instance...

LD: What did the teachers say to you?

KY: Well, the teachers are all teaching in ethics, were like respect of the elders, respect of your parents, filial piety and things like that. And I think that's what we need in schools today.

LD: You said your heart wasn't in it, you said most the kids' hearts wasn't in it. Why?

KY: Well, it was pretty tough for us because we'd go to English school about two or three o'clock in the afternoon, and after that, we have to go to language school 'til four or five o'clock, the other kids are playing. And the kids are, they want to go out and play, too. There were some good students who liked to study language, you know, but as far as we were concerned, boys, we liked to go out and play, so our hearts were never in it.

LD: Did you learn something just the same?

KY: Well, we learned something, I believe. But not enough that if we went to school in Japan, that we could have use of it because the standard was way below to what could be used in Japan.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 1985 The Center for Educational Telecommunications and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

LD: You finally did go to Japan.

KY: I finally... see, after finishing high school in 1934, then stayed in Hawaii for a year then in '35, went to school in Japan, actually to go to college. But since our language was not sufficient, then we have to take prep courses and then go to middle school and take the entrance examination.

[Interruption]

LD: What was different about the customs for you when you arrived? What was customs, different, besides the language, what was different?

KY: Well, you know, you have all customs like when you greet people, when you're going to be served your food, how you're eating, it's so different. When you go to the countryside it's one way. You go to the city where they are more sophisticated, and it's much, much different than what we was accustomed to in Hawaii.

LD: Could you talk to us a little bit about the ways in which you felt close to the Japanese or different from Japanese when you were there? Like you're just, maybe I'll remind us that you're just out of high school, you're college age, going there to go to college. So can you tell about that a little? What was that like for you?

KY: The most difficult thing I think was because of the language, and not having enough knowledge of the language. And the language, the Japanese that's spoken in Tokyo where I was is so different from the Japanese spoken in Hawaii. And you go to the country, there may be some similarities, but still there's a vast difference. And to read and write is one problem, but to speak it is another great problem.

LD: Did you want to go to Japan to study? What did your father say to you? How did he bring it up? Do you remember discussing it with you, or talking to you about going?

KY: Well, he did mention actually that...

LD: My father...

KY: My father did mention that, "You should have an education first, and secondly, of course, you should know the language and customs of your parents and ancestors, in the cultural area, too." But in the middle 1930s, actually, was right after the Depression. And to send a child to college or any high education in those days, going to the mainland was very expensive. So about that time, there was a trend of sending all the Niseis to Japan to learn not only their higher education, but to learn the language and culture and so forth. So I suppose weighing all things together, he thought that was the best way to get an education. And so I was one of many students that were going to Japan about that time for education.

LD: How long had you known that you were going to do that? Did you know it... you had known all along that someday you were going to go? Or about the time that you were a senior you knew it? For how long had you been expecting it? Did you expect to go?

KY: No, I did not expect to go. Some of my friends were already there. Right after high school they left, I went one year later. But I had many friends that had gone to Japan, and knowing what the situation was like, I thought that was a good idea. So when that was suggested by my father, why, I thought it was a good time for me to go.

LD: You saw it as a way of just continuing your education.

KY: Yes, that's the way that I looked at it, was a way to have higher education.

LD: So during the time that you were there, did you ever think about just staying on and getting, making your living in Japan? What did you think?

KY: My thoughts on living in Japan was the last thing I had in mind. We had a business here, my friends were here, and living and earning a living in Tokyo or for that matter in Japan wasn't that easy. Of course, if you had knowledge of English, that's a great advantage, if you knew Japanese and English, then you could get a good job there. In fact, there were a lot of the students actually chose to remain there, those who did not have anything to come back for. But actually, in my case, why, we had our own running business and being the first son, and my father was old, why, that was the natural thing to do.

LD: This is... we had this old picture, get the painting, too, that says you, Yamane store. What kind of business did your father have already at that time?

KY: Oh, 1930s my father had a grocery store and feed store, paint department, and he also had a lot of houses for rent. He bought land, built, and rented. So it was more than enough work for a family. Whereas others are, whose father was employed by someone, they would have to seek a job someplace, whether it was in Hawaii or mainland or in Japan, so they go to school to find a job. And those who chose to stay active were those who, if they came back to Hawaii would not have a business going, so they would be looking for a job.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 1985 The Center for Educational Telecommunications and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

LD: What was the best part and what were the worst parts about being in Japan for you? You were there about five years right?

KY: Well, staying in Japan, for me, for five years was... the primary objective was, of course, to go to school. I remember at one time I had an intention of remaining in Japan. So it meant my living in Japan was merely only temporary, just to get an education and come back.

LD: During the same time that you were there, you saw a lot of political changes in Japan, like the February 26th incident, invasion of Manchuria, Nazi pact with Japan, Axis pact. What did you think of all those changes? Did you notice all those kinds of changes happening, or did you feel... they were happening around you, but sometimes people don't notice these things. Did you notice them and did you realize what they meant? Say, "At that time, when I was there," you can tell me what you saw when you were there, when you were in Japan for those five years as a student, what you saw.

KY: The five years that I was a student in Japan, we can't but help seeing all, feeling all these things, because the country was on a, at a total war effort. See, because the military were grooming, in fact, the entire country was just groomed for expansion and the policy was expansionism and the military, and school educational systems were geared to that. And in fact, even the slogans were, "Raise a large family," so they have more sons in the army kind of idea. And we actually were directly involved, not only in school, but the newspapers, the movies, even downtown Tokyo, you can see slogans and mass demonstrations and everything all geared to an effort to expand the country in East Asia. And that was the military's whole idea.

LD: What did you think of that? At that time, what did you see? At that time you were like twenty, you were nineteen, twenty years old, you were twenty-one, twenty-two, what did you think at that time?

KY: Well, see, in 1935, my father and my sisters came with a tour group in Japan. And he went on a tour of Manchuria, which was already under Japanese control, and he took me along, we went as far north as Harbin. And the things the military did and also the Japanese government did with Manchuria is amazing. Really got everything planned, and they built the South Manchurian Railroad, they built beautiful fast trains, the cities, the master plan, zoned for the next fifty, hundred years. Then they're very efficient a country, very efficient a country. They just had planned... because at that time it wasn't quite one hundred million people, but if you look on the island as being only the size of the state of California, one hundred million people, and the area left for the farmers to farm and for industry to go into manufacturing just wasn't enough. So they just had to expand to feed the growing population.

LD: So what do you like better? The Japanese military was efficient, and you were not particularly uneasy about what Japan was doing with expanding and doing with its military at that time, you didn't particularly know, didn't think about it, your father didn't talk about it?

KY: Well, by 1935 I was still just out of high school. But what was done in Manchuria was a great improvement to what it was because under the Chinese, they had a lot of... oh, they had decades of war with the lords, various lords had, carried on war against each other, the country was in a turmoil. So with all the stability given, it seemed like the idea was right. But he was just as the military, in the aggression, I think, was much too extreme.

LD: You could see war was coming in the United States. Could you see that at that time? Did you see it was coming?

KY: Well, when the war with China started, why, because of the market in China, was a direct conflict with United States, and that fight for the sphere of influence at that time, I mean, as far as I was concerned, I knew more of the political implication already, that it wasn't going to get better, it was going to get worse, and the military wasn't bent on expanding.

LD: How did you happen to return to the United States at the time that you did? When did you return and how was that decision made?

KY: Well, my father was pretty aged already, so he... when I actually graduated college, why, he wanted me to come back. I believe the oil embargo was already placed on Japan at that time, and that was really, I think, was almost the real cause of the fight, I think, with the United States on any kind of political matters, you know. That was, I think, our policy, that put Japan's back against the wall, and they had to just fight. And so being that it was, I thought I'd better get out of there before war, what actually started was getting pretty bad already.

LD: You're saying that you were conscious, as war was beginning to become more likely between Japan and the United States, you were becoming more aware of the fact that you're really, you're not a Japanese citizen, is that what you're saying? You felt that it was time to go back to the United States.

KY: Yeah. I mean, I've accomplished my mission as getting my education and learning the Japanese language, meeting people, culture, customs and so forth. And I thought that would be more than sufficient for my purposes in having business in Hawaii, so I thought I'd better come back.

LD: You caught one of the last boats out, didn't you?

KY: Yeah, I caught the second to the last, the Tatsuta-maru, the second to the last ship that came to the United States.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 1985 The Center for Educational Telecommunications and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

LD: Where were you -- let's go all the way to, why don't you tell me a little bit more about what your life was like growing up in Hawaii. You know, like you didn't work on a plantation, some people worked on a planation. What was your life like growing up? You were just thinking back, and think about the main things in your life that you remember, what would you say? What was your life like as a kid? Did you work very hard, going to school, were you pampered, special treatment because you had seven sisters, only you, they all looked after you? How would you describe your life in the family and your life out and around? How would you describe your life? What do you really remember?

KY: Well, I guess my life, when I was young -- when I say young, grammar school age to junior high school -- I suppose it's almost like any other American kid, like football, baseball, joined the Boy Scouts and go camping, join the YMCA, go camping. I think I had a pretty full, enjoyable life as a youth.

LD: How much time did you spend with your father when you were young? How did he influence you? Was your father very important to you?

KY: My father was a busy man, having his own business, and he was expanding quite a bit, having a large family. We had a store and a restaurant, which were all long hours, you know. But it wasn't so bad because in the old days, why, like most of the Japanese immigrants, if they had a store, they would be living in the back, or we used to live upstairs of the store. So even though he was busy, we always ate together in the back of the store, the kitchen, so we ate together. And the family was pretty close in the sense that even though he was busy and long hours, we all used to see him and eat together.

LD: You'd see him easily.

KY: Yeah.

[Interruption]

LD: If you can describe, what was your father like?

KY: My father was, as I say, a very busy man. He was a disciplinarian, he was strict. When we were kids, he wouldn't let us go to the pool hall, he wouldn't let us play cards. And if we were, said to come home and strum an ukulele, he said, "When?" He said, "It's not good be playing ukulele." He used to really be strict on us like that. But he used to take us out to the beach, beaches with the kids in the car and so forth. He used to guide us quite well.

LD: How about your mother? What was your mother like?

KY: Well, Mom, my mother was a busy woman because, actually, with ten, eleven children and running a store, restaurant, she was really busy. But fortunately we had seven girls in the family, and they were all older than I am, so that actually eased the burden of my mother quite a bit. It was those days where you had no washing machine and things like that.

LD: What did you feel was expected of you? As the oldest boy, what did you think was expected of you?

KY: Well, I think... you see, my father was real strict on me. He was exceptionally strict because I was the first son, I suppose, in order to carry on the business. And he used to... say we used to go to Japanese language school, and football, like say a junior high school football game, if I wanted to go to a game, he wouldn't let me go. He said, "Go to Japanese school." He used to be strict in that sense, that he wanted us to really study and make something of yourself instead of doing things like that.

LD: Then you had to give up the football game.

KY: Yeah, well, I used to sneak out and go, and boy, I used to get a whipping from that. [Laughs] For cutting class. Gee, all the friends are going, so they urge you to go, so you sneak out sometimes.

LD: You'd sneak out from school?

KY: Yeah, don't go to Japanese school and go to a football game.

LD: Sometimes you'd get caught?

KY: Oh, yeah, then the school principal will call my father and say, "Your son didn't come to class today," then he'll find out where did we go and things like that.

LD: The principal would call?

KY: Yeah, the principal would call and say, "Your son was absent today." He knows there's a football game going on.

LD: So your father would beat up on you.

KY: He wouldn't beat us up, but then would really...

LD: How would your father punish you?

KY: Well, he'd just give us a good lecture.

LD: What did he say?

KY: He says... there's an old Japanese saying, they say that's not proper to do such a thing.

LD: How does he say that to you in Japanese? What would he say?

KY: Oh, he would say, "[inaudible]," which means that this is not a proper thing to do, it lacks in spirit kind of idea.

LD: Did you stop doing it then?

KY: Yeah, well, I didn't cut class too often.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 1985 The Center for Educational Telecommunications and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

LD: So let's go to December 7th. Where were you on December 7th and what happened to you and the fellows that you were with after that?

KY: See, December 7th, actually, we were in the fourth draft in November, November 1941 now, we were finally... I was drafted. I had two, what you call extensions, I think, at that time, because of our store. We had three men, male employees working, and they got drafted, and I was the last running the store, so I got an exemption. But finally they caught up with me in November of 1941. So we were at Scofield Barracks.

LD: Start with this: "On December 7th, I was already in the army, and I was in Schofield Barracks." December 7th.

KY: December 7th I was already in the army, and we were actually undergoing basic training. We got our pass, our weekend pass, and we all went home. And actually, December 7th, right on King Street, I was washing my car. It was seven o'clock or so and we started to hear and see all the burst in the sky, anti-aircraft shells bursting. But we thought it was just maneuvers. But then the radio started making broadcast notices that all military personnel... no. Says that, "We are being attacked by Japanese war planes. All military personnel, return to your base immediately."

LD: What did you think? What was your reaction, your personal reaction?

KY: Well, of course, the first order was to return to our base, but we never had any chance even to think what we should do when we see the parents and say there's a war, or anything like that. All the radio said was we've been attacked, and it looks like the burst in the sky was actual anti-aircraft flaks going. So then hurriedly dressed and drove my car back to Schofield Barracks.

LD: At some point they really didn't trust you guys, right? And they took away your guns at one point. Can you tell me about that a little bit? What happened?

KY: Well, we were still in Schofield Barracks, we got our arms, when the war started, all the trainees -- we were trainees at that time -- we were all issued an old Springfield rifle. But there were actually no ammunition, live ammunition. And in fact, they got it from the storehouses and issued it to us.

LD: I don't understand. You mean they issued you guns without ammunition?

KY: Yeah. When we were in training we never got live ammunition. Only when we go to the firing range, they issue us.

LD: Is that standard?

KY: Yeah, that's standard practice. So then when the war actually started, then we were still in Schofield Barracks, being that I had an ROTC in high school, so those with a little training were sent out immediately into the field and actually were assigned to the Hawaiian National Guard, the 298th Infantry, and I was sent out to the windward side. We were there for six months, two hours on, four hours off, I think it was. We guard two hours and then four hours being either you rest, or you have to build barbed wire defenses. And we were out in the field about six months, and then actually we were recalled back to Schofield Barracks. Actually when we were at Schofield Barracks, I mean, it was actually obvious that the soldiers that were sent back to Schofield Barracks were either Nisei or soldiers with Japanese blood. And in fact, a few nights after we went to Schofield Barracks, one night all the arms were taken away from us, arms and ammunition were taken away from us. Then actually on the outer fringes there were guards, some of 'em our friends, all local boys, but all other nationalities. Well, what we heard rumors were that there were saboteurs in our group, and they, I guess, took that precaution. I think just overnight, I think, they returned arms to us.

LD: They took your arms during the night? How did they get your arms away from you? What did they say to you when they came to get it, do you remember?

KY: I think as far as I recall, I think they just stacked arms and they took our arms away, back to the tent, that's all.

LD: But you noticed it.

KY: Oh, yeah, there's no doubt about it. In fact, that group over there is all Niseis and those with Japanese blood.

LD: Did you guys talk about that, people in your group, did you talk about the fact that they were taking your guns away and why they might be doing that?

KY: Well, just, we didn't go out...

LD: Did you all know it, didn't say anything about it?

KY: Well, I think it was pretty obvious, but there wasn't too much discussion on it, because arms were given back again. Rumors were just rampant all over Honolulu anyway.

LD: Why were the rumors rampant in Honolulu at that time?

KY: Oh, when we first went to Schofield Barracks, that night of December 7th, it was a nightmare. For instance, they said that the saboteurs are poisoning the water at the Wahiawa Reservoir, and there were some saboteurs that sneaked into Schofield Barracks, and everybody was jittery. A cow was in the, either a dog or cow moved into a bush there and they'll fire. So the next morning you'll see a cow dead over there. That's how jittery everybody was.

LD: But do you think that all the Japanese on the island were feeling that they were special objects of suspicion? Do you think everybody felt, how do you think all the older Japanese on the island felt?

KY: Well, on the matter of the Japanese in Hawaii being under suspicion, it's hard for us to judge because we were in army camp already. Never got out, never had a pass, and we were sent out to the field almost immediately. I mean, all I used to get my information was a piggery guy we used to know, we used to sell him feed.

LD: But when you came back. When you came back from being out there, six months later.

KY: Oh, six months later? Oh, even that, we stayed in Schofield Barracks only a few days, we were under strict, we were sort of enclosed, we couldn't get out of post. And we were, I think at that time we had our arms and ammunition, and that again, arms and ammunition were taken from us again, see. In the sense that we may be shipped out. We don't know exactly what they're going to do with us, but that would be normal procedure, to get arms and ammunition, the whole arms and ammunition returned, and they reissue new equipment when we get away. So we never actually suspected anything like that as far as suspicion of the Nisei was concerned. We did hear, for instance, the triple-V, the students at University of Hawaii, they were in the military and then they were discharged. They were some of the potential U.S. Army Reserve officers, but they were dismissed.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 1985 The Center for Educational Telecommunications and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

LD: You were hearing a lot of rumors about big battles. What were you hearing about that, and then what happened?

KY: Well, while we were Schofield Barracks, I guess ready for shipment at that time, we were hearing rumors either in the post or friends would come back. Some friends would be living in Honolulu, working in the post, talking to them, "What's going on in Honolulu?" and they started talking about, the rumors are something is coming up. And so we tried to tie in our shipment with that, and they shipped us out pretty fast.

LD: Tell us about... I'd like you start off by saying, "I got shipped out from Hawaii to the mainland and became part of the 100th Battalion." I want you to tell me about all that. Start out by saying, "I got shipped out..."

KY: I got shipped out after leaving Schofield Barracks. We were ordered on short notice to be ready for shipment, and we got on the train. The train had gone to the pier at that time, and we went straight for a troop ship. We had no chance to even call our folks or family. And the troop ship was the old SS Maui. I don't recall whether it was... maybe it was during the day, but we had a destroyer escort when we left Honolulu harbor. And I think that night, the troop ship kept... I think we had an inkling we were going to the mainland, but we weren't sure. The next morning, when we got out, up on board the deck, we see no destroyer. So holy mackerel, we were just going by ourselves, no escort or nothing. And we did have an experience out in Molokai channel, I think, a submarine had sunk a ship going interisland. So during, after my travel on the troop ship to the mainland, I made it a point to sleep on deck. [Laughs] As long as you have no escort, at least you have a fighting chance.

LD: You were afraid the ship might be sunk.

KY: Oh, yeah, because we had no escort. We went all over, we zigzagged all the way, because a ship would go zigzag all the way under. Clear vision of any submarine could just spot you and torpedo you.

LD: You had no inkling that this was going to happen. They suddenly said, what did they way to you when they asked you to ship out? What did they say to the troops to move out? What did they say to you?

KY: Well, they did, they took all... we had to return our arms and ammunition, and actually they reissued us new gear. And from there, why, the orders were just to entrain on the train and we just followed, get on the train, and of course, being a train, we didn't know where we were going, but we most likely thought it would be onto a boat, to a ship.

[Interruption]

KY: When we were ordered to ship out, all members of the 298th/299th infantry, our National Guard, were ordered to go to Schofield Barracks.

LD: Excuse me, tell me this is June '42.

KY: June of '42.

LD: June '42 was the Battle of Midway.

KY: Yeah, well, that we didn't know until later because we were on board ship all the time. We actually pieced together that information months later.

LD: You figured out that that might be the reason why they shipped you out? You thought so then?

KY: Yeah.

LD: I want you to tell us that.

KY: But we didn't know it was the Battle of Midway. We knew that something was going, that's the rumors in Honolulu.

LD: Fine. "In June of '42, we knew some big thing was going to happen." Tell us that.

KY: Well, in June 1942 when all the Nisei soldiers were called in... actually the suspicion was that it was some battle imminent. And from rumors we heard, there was a lot of activity at Pearl Harbor, it must be a naval battle somewhere near Hawaii. And for that reason we were called because we were the only people of Japanese blood armed, and the military wanted to get our weapons away. And when we arrived at Schofield Barracks, I don't exactly recall where the order was, all soldiers, officers and enlisted men of Japanese blood were to be recalled. But it obvious it was so, but what was surprising, that even soldiers of only fractional Japanese blood were also recalled. For instance, what comes to mind is, for instance, we have, in our company, we had a James Holahula, he was as Hawaiian as you can find any Hawaiian. But we found out he had a small percentage of Japanese blood. He was included in our group. And so in June 1942 when we were recalled and shipped out immediately, we kind of pieced things together, that our reason for our recall was because of the imminent battle that will occur someplace near Hawaii. Now, we never knew it was the Battle of Midway, because we were on the ship all the time, from landing in Oakland, we went to [inaudible] and we sort of lost contact with what occurred in Hawaii. But later we found out it was the Battle of Midway.

LD: Tell me about you were, about how you were always moving in the darkness, and you said you were, the ship was somehow always, was scheduled to land in darkness and your training was in darkness, and why was that? Tell me about that.

KY: Well, when we were shipped out, the method used actually came to my attention immediately because when we landed in Oakland, when the troop ship finally landed in Oakland, it was in the stillness of the night, I think it was about midnight. The boat landed in Oakland harbor, and I'm not sure whether the war evacuation had already started or not. But all the hysteria on the West Coast, I think the army didn't want to create any suspicion. We stayed in uniform, of course, American uniform, but it could be misinterpreted. And even when the men, which at that time wasn't known as the 100th Battalion yet, it was known as the Hawaii Provisional Battalion, and we were split in three trains, three different trains. One went to the south, one in the central route, and the other the northern route. And we all converged later, we found out we all converged at Camp McCoy, Wisconsin. But even when we reached Camp McCoy, it was in the stillness of the night again. The train just slowly moved in at night in the darkness. And it seemed to me that the U.S. Army, I think, trying to avoid any problems. Japanese faces in a large group, in uniform, is moving into the continental United States, it may cause problems, I suppose.

LD: When you were on the boat and when you were on the train with the other guys, you must have been talking about what was up. You didn't know what was going to happen. Do you remember any of that and what were you thinking? What were the other guys saying? You must have all talked.

KY: Well, I guess the troops knew that with all the West Coast evacuation talk and so forth. So actually, as far as I was concerned, I thought, the first thing in my mind is that they took our arms away, they're shipping us out, West Coast evacuation going on full blast. The only conclusion I can reach is I think they're going to put us in internment camp, too. So when we reached Camp McCoy, as I say, in the stillness and the darkness, and all you can see is the stockade, they had four corners of, either internment camp or PW camp, they had guards on each tower. And when we were going into Camp McCoy on a train, here this tower with a security guard, and flashing, with a searchlight shining on the borders of the fence, I said, "Oh boy, looks like they're going to intern us," that was the first impression I had. That's when I think I heard some of my buddies in my company said, "Hey, that's the camp my father is in," which was really a surprise. Then, more so, we felt that boy, I think they're going to really intern us like PWs, that's the impression we had.

LD: What did he mean by, "That's the camp my father's in"? Can you tell me what he said? "When we got to Camp McCoy, one of my buddies said..."

KY: When we arrived at Camp McCoy, not that night but I think the following day or two, two of my friends said, "Oh, this is the camp my father has been interned." Whether he's there or not, he didn't know, but he said, "Camp McCoy is where my father's interned." But the following day, which was, was a relief to us that we're marching to open tents, it was outside of the guarded encampment, so that we knew that we weren't going to be interned, we went to regular army tents. And it looks like we were pretty much free and not to be interned.

LD: When you went into, sort of, basic training, went into some kind of training.

KY: That's right.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 1985 The Center for Educational Telecommunications and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

LD: And then at some point, somebody came and recruited you for MI. Can you tell us about that? Say, "Here I was at Camp McCoy..."

KY: Well, we were --

LD: What did you think of that? When you knew that fathers of some of your buddies were locked up, you're talking about locked up by the FBI, they were boys from the islands there, just like you were. What did you think of that? Could you start by, "When I heard that some of my buddies' parents, fathers were locked up in the same camp that we were going to be training in..." start it that way, "When I heard."

KY: When I heard that the fathers of my friends were in an internment camp at Camp McCoy right, a stone's throw from where we were training, well, we felt, what a contradiction. I mean, it's not a good feeling. But still, we were at Camp McCoy, but we didn't know how we were going to end up. Because we were named the Hawaii Provisional Battalion, whether we're going to be a labor battalion, whether we were going to be training for infantry or regular army or whatever it is, we didn't know. And for six months we were going to various training, basic courses and so forth. Actually, in the meantime, what happened was, I think only a few weeks after that, I think all the internees were moved to another camp, and we were there ourselves.

LD: In fact, your bishop here. Tell me about that. "In fact, Bishop."

KY: Yeah. In fact, when we met with Bishop Miao at the Izuma Taisha shrine this morning, he indicated that he was sent to Wisconsin for internment, and then we actually inquired from him, we understand it was Camp McCoy.

LD: Okay, still another way. When you arrived at Camp McCoy, at that very moment that you arrived, he was already, the bishop of your Shinto shrine. Describe it. The bishop of your Shinto shrine in Honolulu was already there locked up. Put it that way.

KY: Actually, Bishop Miao had told me this morning that he was at Camp, that's the first camp they were interned, was at Camp McCoy internment camp, locked up. And he also confirmed when I asked him, the fact that the fathers of the two buddies of mine were in there, he said yes they were in there. Now actually, the army really didn't know what to do with us because I guess the higher-ups had a lot of policy questions as to how to treat us in uniform. And with all the mass evacuation going on full blast, and here we are in uniform, and what the deal was, I think all Niseis were classified 4 something, 4-C or something, I think. They cannot join the army. But from my own experience, we were given this basic training, we were going marches, hikes, all over the bluffs of Wisconsin, I was getting kind of tired and monotonous, too. It was very obvious that they didn't know what to do with us.

LD: It must have been cold, you were cold, though. You'd probably never been in that kind of winter snow, cold, either, right?

KY: Oh, that's right. So finally, I think at one point, after a few months, I think, they changed our designation to 100th Infantry Battalion separate. See, separate means that you're not attached to any army unit, so we still were hanging in the air, sort of. So you train and train, keep on going all over the bluffs of Wisconsin. So while I was there, I thought I might as well see the United States, so I used to go all over the country travel on passes. But one day, actually, the Major Dickie came from the War Department and wants to interview volunteers to go into Intelligence Service. But in my own mind, when I'd gone to school in Japan just before joining the army, I knew the language, custom, people, so it would be a logical choice to volunteer for that service, which I did.

LD: What did he ask you? Say, "When I was at Camp McCoy, Major Dickie from the War Department came."

KY: When I was at Camp McCoy, Major Dickie from the War Department came to recruit volunteers for the Military Intelligence Service. He went through asking some questions, whether it's to test your loyalty or... he was pretty tough, he was a tough regular army officer, too, you know, West Point. And he would ask questions like, "Now, if we were to ship you to Japan in a submarine to go on a special mission to Japan," he said, "would you carry on your mission?" These are the type of questions he was asking, these pretty straightforward and tough questions.

LD: What did you say?

KY: No choice but to say yes, naturally. I don't know whether you're going to put that in. [Laughs]

LD: He was asking if you were willing to be a spy or something, right?

KY: Well, being in the army is not a spy as such. But would be similar to spy work, we've got to carry on a mission.

LD: You didn't have any hesitation?

KY: Oh, no. No hesitation because I think there was a need for that type of work.

LD: You would have been ready to do that? Said, "We're going to stick you in by submarine and you're going to go undercover."

KY: Oh, we're in the army, we've got to carry orders.

LD: So did you talk to any of the other guys about how their interview went? Did they tell you what questions were asked, or did you guys talk together about it? You know, some of the other folks who also decided to go for the interview, right?

KY: Uh-huh.

LD: Did you talk to them about what happened?

KY: Well, the others are, they didn't... the recruiting team wasn't too successful at the start, but they had to do some hard selling to get recruits. I know what the Intelligence Service was, because on one of my passes I went to Minneapolis where Camp Savage was, and I met a fellow from Hilo in the army. He was going to that school and I asked him. All the others wouldn't, they wouldn't say anything, secret, and they wouldn't say anything. But this fellow from Hilo, I got his confidence, and he told me what they were doing. Then at Camp McCoy at the interview, I told my friends what the recruiting was all about, and I said, "These are my friends who went to college in Japan," I told him, I said, "They not only need us, but they got our number anyway." We used to come back in the summer and go through all the routine of when immigration office would question us and write it all down. So then I told them, "I think we'd be better off going to Intelligence School because army don't know what to do with us anyway." We're just marching up and down the bluffs of Wisconsin and just to mark time. I said I'd rather volunteer, so I volunteered.

LD: What did you want? Would you have preferred to fight as an infantry and fight in Europe, or fight in the Pacific? At that time, what would you have preferred?

KY: Well, at that time I would rather use my skill, which was much needed. And so I convinced the others, too, that I think we'd be doing better service to our country if we went in as interpreters than going as an infantry. So my friends all decided to sign up.

LD: Did some of them want to go into Europe instead, see more action?

KY: Lot of them, those who didn't want to go just stayed.

LD: Those who didn't want to go to Intelligence stayed.

KY: Oh, yeah, that's the 100th, that's the original 100th Battalion. So after about four or five months' training, then the War Department finally set their policy on the use of the 100th Infantry, so they named it 100th Infantry Battalion at that time, separate.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 1985 The Center for Educational Telecommunications and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

KY: My training at Savage, I think was, as far as army requirement for our use, I think was very necessary. Because the tests given were on the basis of basic Japanese language, written and writing. And, of course, what was difficult were the Chinese characters, but I had all those basics before joining the army when I was going to school in Japan. The tests were difficult for many because they didn't have the basic Japanese. And actually the thirty classes at Savage, Minnesota, what they did was they grade the test and had the groups by the score of the tests. The subjects taught were a lot of them military, too, military words, terms, nomenclature of weapons.

LD: We will cover that. I'm really asking you your feelings. In other words, were you glad to be with these other guys in this kind of training, and do you feel that you built, did you feel you built... see, like the 442 guys, they felt the unity, and certain developments got [inaudible]. The MI men only had that chance at Savage.

KY: Yeah, we dispersed, that's why.

LD: You dispersed after that. During the time that you were at Savage, did you feel that there was some kind of special esprit? Was there a unity in your class or in your barracks or among the students about the purpose, about the responsibility? Was there a special feeling that something they had to do as a group, not just me or him, as a group, do you think there was anything like that there?

KY: Well, the classes at Savage, of course, we were by class. I was class one, and we had certain... because there was a group there, had the same type of training. But we from the 100th, from Camp McCoy and went to Savage, we were in one barracks called Barracks 13. And we had a unity, we knew what the purpose was, but even though you're undergoing training, we didn't know exactly where we're going to be sent on our mission. But as far as our group, which was called the Sempai Gumi, we named ourselves the Sempai Gumi, the pioneers or the forerunners. We had an esprit de corps, sort of, and even after we graduated, we came back, we still were really... but the Savage group as such, there were about five, six thousand of us. But as soon as we got our training and were sent out, then we were all dispersed all over the Pacific, in my case Europe. So there wasn't the closeness of unity of the MIS, so-called.

LD: Did you ever feel that there was any difference between the guys from the mainland who had families locked up and the guys from the islands? Was there any difference in the way they felt, do you think there was?

KY: No, I think the group that volunteered from the relocation centers and the group from Hawaii, I think once they got to Savage, I think they had a sort of single purpose in their studies and their objective. And maybe at the start, they didn't quite understand each other, like the 442nd had some pretty difficult times adjusting. But I think the Savage group, I think were more of the same level. They understood... easily adaptable to the difference, the social differences. So I think they got on pretty good. Once they got in the field, they just worked in unison in one unit. Because if you were out in the field, you just got to stick together, otherwise... so I think they got on very well.

LD: Harada, the other fellow who had a father at Camp McCoy as far as they knew at that time, did they ever express any feelings about that?

KY: I think Ray Harada and Sadao Koyama, although they had their parents interned, as far as I can see, they never expressed any hostile reaction. And I think they served very well in the military.

LD: How about supposing your father had been picked up and had been... you knew he was interned right there at that very same camp where you had been, how do you think you would have felt?

KY: Well, I think if my father was interned, which he wasn't, and he was in the same camp at Camp McCoy right next to where we were training, I guess my attitude would be similar to Ray Harada or Koyama, it's just one of those things. You've got to serve your country, you serve your country.

LD: What did you think would happen in the future? What do you think Ray and the guys felt would happen later?

KY: Oh, I think Ray and Koyama didn't have any bitter feelings, I don't think, anyway, I never heard him express it as far as I know.

LD: They weren't particularly worried that something was going to happen to their father as long as they were serving?

KY: It didn't seem to me that they had any ill feelings.

LD: But you didn't think anything terrible was going to happen to them? You said they'd been locked up, kept in, locked up for a while. There was no worry about what would happen to them, just that they were being locked up and held, but you didn't think anything worse was going to happen?

KY: I think they probably knew the treatment given internees at relocation centers, nothing harsh. The only thing is that they were locked out of the other communities, but I think they were well provided for. Maybe under the circumstances, it's pretty hard to fight against it, it's something too big for an individual to fight against.

LD: So sort of realistically and practically speaking, you just sort of accepted it.

KY: Accept, we had to accept it, there's no choice.

LD: And you didn't think anything really cruel or terrible was going to happen, just the hardship of being locked up and separated.

KY: That's right.

LD: There's nothing you need to worry about, just something you lived with.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 1985 The Center for Educational Telecommunications and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

LD: So then let's say you graduated. Let's take you right up to, you graduated, and then what happens to you? What happens to you? Describe that thing about, you know, you graduate, you're given orders, you open up the orders, and tell us about that. You graduated in June.

KY: Immediately after graduation, the entire Savage class was given furlough pass, I think it was two weeks. And as soon as I returned to camp, I was one of the first to be called to the office. They said, "Well, Yamane, you better pack up, you're going out." So we wanted to know who our team was, and Sergeant Matsumura at that time and myself and two others, we packed up and got our new issue. And actually we were told to go to the railroad station in Washington, D.C. We left, and I guess we were instructed to open the orders when we left the railroad station. So you opened the orders and said it's going to be a Pentagon building.

LD: Okay, tell me that again only I want to hear it more clearly. You graduated. Say, "I graduated," tell me when you graduated. "I graduated in June." In June '43 you graduated.

KY: Oh, June '43 we graduated, I forgot the date. Okay.

LD: Yes, June '43. Okay, graduated June '43.

KY: Yeah, okay. From that point on?

LD: Yeah. "They gave me my orders."

KY: I graduated Camp Savage Military Intelligence School June of '43. After our graduation, the entire Savage class was given, I think it was two weeks' furlough.

LD: What did you do during those two weeks? Where'd you go?

KY: Well, I went to visit some cities. I think on that I think I went to Camp Shelby to see my brother, I think.

LD: You had a brother at Camp Shelby?

KY: Yeah, he was in the 442nd.

LD: Oh, tell us about that. What unit was he in? Say, "I had a brother."

KY: Oh. Well, on my furlough, if I recall, I went to Mississippi to Camp Shelby to see my brother who was in the 442nd. And upon returning, I was one of the first to be called to the office to pack up. There at the office, I was instructed that we would belong to a team with Sergeant Matsumura who was an instructor there, and myself and two others. And we went to Washington, D.C., the railroad station, and he got his ticket there, I guess under sealed orders, I don't know. Then we got on the train, then he opened the orders and the orders said that we were to go to Washington, D.C., and we would be assigned to Fort Myers where they have personnel service in the Pentagon building.

LD: The Pentagon got buried in there, I barely got it. Just tell me that they opened the orders and it said that you're going to serve in the Pentagon, all right? One more time.

KY: Sergeant Matsumura opened the orders, and it stated that our, that we were assigned to the Pentagon building in Washington, D.C.

LD: What did you think of that? What was your reaction? What was your reaction to that?

KY: Actually, my reaction to being sent to the Pentagon was that building was one of the highly secured buildings in the United States at that time, and there was no Nisei at all, anybody with Japanese blood was not in the Pentagon building. The only exception was James Hamasaki, a good friend of mine, he was going to the university too, and he came back on the Gripsholm. He was working for the State Department, and he came back on the exchange ship, and he got a job at the Pentagon building. He was the only Nisei of the 35,000 or so employees of the Pentagon. We were the first Nisei soldiers to go to be stationed in the Pentagon. So we felt that was pretty much a high honor, I suppose. On second thought, probably, we would be working on very highly classified documents, and so we'd probably be much more important tasks than out in the field. So we felt that we got a pretty good assignment.

LD: How was it for you at the Pentagon, working in the Pentagon? How was your general experience there, what do you remember about it?

KY: Actually our experience --

LD: What do you remember?

KY: Our experience in the Pentagon, I think, was very helpful to us overall in the sense that I think being in Washington, D.C., we were right in the midst of everything that was happening. And, of course, the Pentagon was the place to be. I thought that it was an experience.

LD: You knew at the beginning there were others that came through, other Nisei came, can you tell us about that?

KY: Yeah, we were the first four, and I think after a few months, three or four months later, I think the air force asked for a team. And then later I met some Niseis in Washington, D.C., and upon inquiring, they were from Hawaii, and upon inquiring, they said they were stationed in Warrenton, Virginia, doing some kind of communications work, they were from either Savage or Snelling, they came in later.

LD: What kind of work did you do? What kind of documents, what kind of work were you asked to do, and tell me about that national inventory, your discovering that national inventory.

KY: Oh, that came later. But actually, our primary work in the Pentagon was an [inaudible] battle, they called it an [inaudible] battle in the Pacific Theater of Operations. The main job we had, actually, I think, was why we were sent there. During the, one of the naval battles in the South Pacific, I think the U.S. Navy had sunk a convoy of Japanese ships, about twenty Japanese convoy ships. And from it, my understanding, they found a huge crate floating on the ocean, and that was picked up and I think was sent over to Australia. They have a large team over there which was called ATIS, Allied Translators and Interpreters Section. And they made a fast translation for the field, the texts. The documents were about five voluminous books which listed every army officer in the Japanese imperial army, probably about 40,000 or so, fourteen files, about fourteen files, file cabinets. Now, that officer's directory, whether it was regular and reserve, I'm not sure, but listed every army officer's full name in the kanji, of course, all Japanese. Listed the unit, the rank, and the code of the unit, and then below that, lists what unit designation, if it's infantry, regiment, or field artillery or whatever. Gives the division, army or division and the unit designation, it gives the complete information of that officer's unit, and even gives the code, is what you wanted badly. And what our job to do was to convert that into a card file, with an alphabetical card file, writing the kanji on it, of the name. Because the name, Japanese names could be read various ways. So we would give it a Japanese reading on it, and then list all the information which was the basis upon which all other information were gathered for all the battle.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 1985 The Center for Educational Telecommunications and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

KY: About October 1944, I was already assigned to Camp Ritchie, which is Camp David now. Actually, the original four of us as a team were, we formed the nucleus for a new intelligence center in Camp Ritchie. Just about that time if I recall, I think the 442nd were assigned to Bruyeres, and that was the beginning of the Rescue of the Lost Battalion. In the Philippines, I think the invasion of Manila was imminent. In October '44, when I was stationed there, Camp Ritchie actually was an intelligence training center for the European Theater of Operations, and they were going to create a new division for the Pacific Theater, and that's the reason we were sent there. And actually the commandant of the intelligence center was a brigadier general, I forgot his name. He wanted some documents to be rechecked before they were sent out for training purposes. I believe it was about fifteen wooden crates were sent to the intelligence center. So the general called our colonel, Colonel Gronick, and asked that he send over a man to check these documents because he wanted to have it rechecked before he used it for training purposes. So the colonel called me and I went there by myself.

The crates were open so I started to look through the documents. And about the third crate or so, when I picked out this bound book about two inches thick, just looking at the title I could see the value of it. The whole fifteen crates were actually of no military value, only training purposes only, it was marked, and shipped to Ritchie for training purposes. So anyway, when I picked that book up and looking at the title, I know from the title already it must be of immense importance. Then I opened the table of contents, and boy, I couldn't believe what I saw in there. It listed all the major weapons of the Japanese Imperial Army, the size, the type, lists the location of the factories, lists the locations of the munitions dump, everything, addresses. And listed what weapons were short, what weapons didn't have parts, named where the parts could be obtained, all the full information. I just leafed through only two or three chapters from the table of contents, boy, I said this thing is hot. So I called my colonel immediately, I said, "Colonel, boy, there's a document here but you wouldn't believe it." So the colonel came right away, and then I was explaining to him, and so he called a general, I suppose. And then immediately he took the document and he stopped right there, and he immediately took the book back. He already had a staff, the staff was created from really good boys, from Savage and Snelling. And boy, they put everybody to work, whole staff went to work. Now, actually, I didn't see too much of the details of the document, just skimming through that already, I could tell the importance. So I think a few, about a week or ten days later, actually, I was assigned overseas. So the staff all made the translation and so forth, so I didn't do any translation myself, I just picked the document, evaluated it, found it important, gave it to the colonel and the colonel carried on from there.

LD: What was the use for that document for postwar? How was that useful? It was an inventory of weapons on the homeland.

KY: Homeland. Every munitions factory or whatever documents, manufactured, stored, what was stored and everything. Actually, as I said, I saw the importance of that... mind you, those documents were picked up, as I understand it, in the Battle of Saipan. And why an army unit would be carrying that kind of document is beyond me. But being, I guess, a big army group, I suppose, where they have a high placed general who would need that type of information, I don't know. But anyway, I understand that that was picked up by the U.S. Navy, shipped to Pearl Harbor, and was screened by Naval Intelligence there. And just said, made evaluation, no military value, for training purpose, and sent it to the army. And just my short glance of that, I could tell immediately the importance of it.

LD: That was a very useful translation. When they translated that inventory, it was very useful after the war, wasn't it?

KY: Yeah. Well, now, on that, from what I read in Yankee Samurai by Joe Harrington, he probably went back to Washington, D.C., checked the document, the archive and so forth, U.S. Army maybe, I don't know what. He states in Yankee Samurai that that document, as translated, was routed to the air force.

LD: Start this way: "Joe Harrington," start that way. "Joe Harrington."

KY: Joe Harrington went, well, he didn't tell me what he was going to check, but he checked these documents --

LD: Start again. "Joe Harrington, author of Yankee Samurai..."

KY: Joe Harrington was the author of Yankee Samurai. During my interview with him, stated that all interviews would be checked and rechecked at archives, the War Department, Navy Department. And what I read in Yankee Samurai, he states that the document that I found and was translated were routed to the army, navy, marine and so forth. And from what he writes, he said that that was used actually for B-29 raids thereafter. And also during the Army of Occupation, that book again was used to seize all military, the stockpiles of weapons and ammunition, and by doing so without incident. And from that standpoint, I think that document has been very helpful. Now, I don't know what happened after I submitted to the colonel, I was shipped overseas to Europe, and then from then on I don't know anything about the document. I think the best man to judge and check it might have been Joe Harrington. So that's the story I got from the book.

LD: What he was saying is that in the occupation they needed to... what's the word... remove the weapons, there's a word for that. Disarm.

KY: Yeah, disarm.

LD: Right. So one of the jobs of the Occupation Army was to disarm your enemy. Well, so then the question is how do you disarm then, right? So could you tell me about that a little bit? In the occupation.

KY: What?

LD: Just explain that.

KY: It was not my work, but it's all right to explain it. Joe Harrington explains that I think there are some other Nisei linguists over there actually did it.

LD: Did what?

KY: Did the disarming. They were the, they had an officer who would order the men to, what you call a stack arms, they stack all the rifles, and then they sent them out on an order.

LD: Sent them to walk away.

KY: Walk away or do something else.

LD: Yes, and then come back, the arms are gone.

KY: Then yeah, the arms are gone.

LD: Does that sound reasonable to you that that's what happened?

KY: Oh, yeah. Because if you see an American officer would go over there and try to seize all the weapons from the soldiers there, he'd get a battle. They wouldn't release it. Even army officer, if a Japanese army officer orders the enlisted men to stack arms, you follow the order. Then the officer will tell you, give an order to do certain things, then they'll go. Once the weapons are gone, they come back, that's not the enlisted men's fault. That would be something that they just followed ordered, then there would be no...

LD: What were your next, what was your next assignment? Okay, you were sent overseas, tell us about that. The next assignment, you were one of that rare, now, that was a very small group. You and...

KY: Yeah, Pat Nagano and George Urabe. George Urabe of San Francisco.

LD: Yeah, there was only three of you. You three were the only three that had that assignment, right? You don't know of any other MI men in Europe? You were the only three.

KY: As far as I know, yeah.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 1985 The Center for Educational Telecommunications and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

KY: After Ritchie, we got sort of bored listening to our friends overseas talking about the excitement, so Colonel asked for volunteers for a special mission overseas, so we volunteered not knowing what the mission would be. The mission turned out to be that we were called in as a team under Major White, and we left for New York. And while we stayed overnight in New York and left on a C-54 transport, it's a huge military transport, with only five of us. So we felt this must be a pretty important mission to be sending five men on a C-54. After the plane left New York, we met all together in the plane, and Major White read the orders. There was a U.S. Navy lieutenant senior grade, Arthur English, with us, and the three Nisei men from MIS, the only ones that had actually gone to the European Theater of Operations. And we didn't know whether we were going to India or Europe or where the mission was. Then Major White opened the sealed orders and read it to us, the orders read that we were to be assigned under General Eisenhower's headquarters, SHAEF, which is Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force, going by way of Newfoundland and Scotland and landing in Paris.

We were assigned to Petite Palet which is in Versailles, France, when we had our headquarters there. The order also read that we were train with the British commandos, in fact, our primary mission was to train with the British commandos either by land, air or sea, to attack, go into Berlin and capture documents, Japanese documents in this case. The reason for that probably being at that time Japanese was with the Axis powers. The naval military attache group was pretty huge there in Europe. Also, the embassy staff was pretty large because of the, probably, exchange of information I presume. And I think primarily for that reason, we were assigned to Europe on the Far Eastern Intelligence. The group in Far Eastern Intelligence actually composed of the British navy, British army, all colonels, French, all colonels, the Italians, and actually, what the United States was trying to do was to get a prior commitment from the Russians because of this mission that we would like to have the Russians guarantee our safety in Berlin. Just about that time, what happened was the Russians were advancing to Berlin pretty fast, and we didn't want to commit any United States forces in there because they wanted to get there first. So not having the Russians' approval, we also were sent out in the field from, oh, I covered Germany, Yugoslavia, Belgium, Luxembourg, some parts of France, Italy, and did all the other document checks so some nationals of Japan were captured, listing them. I think the team, which the other two sergeants went out on a mission, whereas I was in Italy, where Sergeant Nagano and George Urabe went, I think they captured a huge staff of Japan military naval attache staff, and also the embassy staff was captured at one of the hot springs resorts in Austria. That was a prized capture by us on our mission, so it kind of paid off, we didn't get into Berlin, but we did.

LD: You mentioned that there are all these colonels around all you guys were only sergeants. Lot of the MI talked about a certain resentment and discrimination. How did you feel about that? Here you were a sergeant, all you guys were sergeants, Jimmy Matsumura was only, your instructor was only a sergeant.

KY: Well, that was one of the reasons we got kind of... not resentment, but we felt it was unfair that we actually do most of the work. We're able to do the work, we're doing the work, but the rank is not there. And whereas all the others, the Caucasian officers at Savage were almost instant Japanese language specialists, and they all got commissioned. I think there was a lot of dissatisfaction in Savage and among the Niseis. Of course, field commissions were given later.

LD: Did you find it hard to do your work sometimes at such a low rank? Did you find it hard to get credibility and acceptance of your judgment while your higher, because you were only a sergeant?

KY: Oh, if you had a higher rank, your job gets much easier, especially getting Allied officers, for instance, doing work with Allied offices. When the war, when we're in Europe, when we were in Europe, VJ Day... no, no, VE Day came about, and the [inaudible] department had called us back to go to Washington, D.C. So Major was telling me, "Well," he says, "Now we can work on the invasion of Japan. Then maybe we'll give you a commission." [Laughs] As far as I was concerned, they can keep the commission. I had eighty-five points, I was going to get my discharge, my father was ill, and they had a lot of business in Hawaii. So I thought maybe the best thing to do was get my discharge and let others do the invasion of Japan. So that's my finale of my service.

LD: Your finale was what?

KY: Yeah, my service in the military. I came back to Washington, D.C., asked for my discharge, then made preparations to come home. So my wife and I came home, got discharged in Washington. State of Washington, I got my discharge in the state of Washington, Fort Lewis.

LD: You did your service and came home. How do you feel about your overall service? How do you feel about what you were able to do and your assignments? How do you feel about your service overall?

KY: Well, I guess as far as my feeling on my service in the military, I think serving four years, I think I served my country well. Having served four years with the necessary eighty-five points, I think I think I did more than my share, and I think I should have gone further, say, in the invasion of Japan, but I feel that I've done my duty. I also have some other commitments like, say, my father, he was old, he was sick, and we have the family business, so I felt good that it was the right thing to do.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 1985 The Center for Educational Telecommunications and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

KY: In 1923, the Izumo Shrine, the new shrine was built. My father was one of the founders of the sect in Hawaii, and he was one of the prime movers in building the new shrine. After the war started, the board of trustees at that time, because they were classified as "enemy alien," they were interned, and the group of the board of trustees remaining had, by the action, because of fear, had given the land and the shrine improvements to the city parks board. During the war and after the war it was used as a park for that area. After the war, when Bishop Miao returned to Hawaii from internment, he had a temporary shrine, but he wanted to enlarge it after the governor had allowed the return of the Shinto shrine to be used in Hawaii. The board of trustees after the war was trying for many years to see if they can have land, original land and the shrine returned. And after many, many years' effort, they were not able to get any action from a political standpoint. So my father asked me if I could see if I could help them by legal means to try to get the return of the property, so I started to attend the board of trustees meeting after they elected me on the board. And I suggested to them the steps to go through means like, say, work with Justice Marumoto, and also with Justice Frank Padgett to take legal means to get the shrine back. And finally in 1963, I think, we went to the Supreme Court and we won. So the property as you see today is the result of many, many years of effort. So now, the older generation who belonged to the congregation, still do, and so now they have a place of worship. And that shrine, by the way, is the only historic building of the entire Kukui redevelopment area that survived the bulldozers and all the destruction of the buildings that was going on at that time.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 1985 The Center for Educational Telecommunications and Densho. All Rights Reserved.