<Begin Segment 1>

gky: This is Ted Tsukiyama, T-S-U-K-I-Y-A-M-A. We're in Honolulu on January 5th, the year 2001. Ted what year were you born in? When were you born?

TT: 1920.

gky: And when in 1920?

TT: December.

gky: Oh, same as Harry [Fukuhara]. Will you tell me the Varsity Victory Volunteers story?

TT: Well, we have to start with the University of Hawaii ROTC. They were called up on the morning, just within maybe half an hour of the Pearl Harbor attack. They were called to report for duty, so the ROTC at the university was a regiment size, but I would say there's at least five, six hundred cadets who reported. And, about 80 percent of them, I'm sure, was Nisei. We were -- the very first assignment was to go out to the bottom of St. Louis Hill to repel the advance of Japanese paratroopers that supposedly landed on top of St. Vincent. Anyway, they never came and so that afternoon the ROTC was converted by military order into the Hawai'i Territorial Guard and then assigned to guard various important installations and buildings in Honolulu. That went on for six weeks until someone in Washington, D.C., discovered to their horror that Honolulu was being guarded by hundreds of "Japs" in American uniform. So all of the Nisei in the Hawai'i Territorial Guard were discharged. This happened on January 19, 1942. So most of us went back to the university, but within weeks we were inspired to volunteer for our services as a labor battalion since, by that time, the War Department had changed the draft status of the Nisei to 4-C, "enemy alien," so that we were not eligible for military service anymore. So this was a civilian group which petitioned the military governor to be allowed to serve as a labor battalion if they were not to be trusted with weapons, and the petition was accepted. And this group, about 170, was accepted and assigned to the 34th Combat Engineers out at Schofield. So this civilian group, which was given the moniker or nickname of Varsity Victory Volunteers because they all came from the university. This group served with the army engineers for almost a year out at Schofield from February 1942 to January of 1943. And then, by that time, the War Department made the decision that they would reopen military service for the limited purpose of accepting Nisei volunteers to serve in a all-Nisei combat team. And that's -- you know, historians have said that this group of 170 VVVs, although small in number, had a very large impact and had some part in the decision to allow the Niseis to serve again in military service. And, of course, this is how the 442 got started.

gky: So, could you tell how you -- what kind of impact you think that it had, the VVV serving so willingly and immediately?

TT: Yes. I've seen at least one document in the war records in the National Archives where there was a communication to the Secretary of War, Assistant Secretary McCloy, which noted... that mentioned reasons why the Nisei were probably not a loyalty risk and should be allowed to serve in the military. One of the reasons was the good work that the MIS were doing out in the Pacific, but the other one was specifically mentioned that there is this group of volunteers who were working in the labor, as a labor battalion out in Hawai'i, and this is just about the time when the decision was made to initiate the combat team. So there is some definite indication that the experience of the VVV did have a part in this decision that, of course, allowed the formation of the 442 which would give the Nisei a chance to wear the uniform again and to fight for their country, and, of course, the rest is history, as you might say.

gky: You were drafted to go into, and wound up going to the MIS, but you had said that you put on an Oscar-winning performance to get out of the MIS, that you really wanted to go to the 442. Will you tell me that story?

TT: Yes. This is already in 1943 and we were training in Camp Shelby with the 442, and I was with the 522nd Field Artillery. And around that time, the War Department realized the value of what the Nisei MIS were doing out in the Pacific. And there have been papers that I've seen that listed the priorities; in other words, answering the question, what shall we do with these Niseis that are in the services? And the first priority was if they were competent and qualified to be trained in military intelligence, that was the first priority. The second was infantry combat, which would be the 442nd and the 100th. And the third was quartermaster, some of the service organizations. So since there was this great need for more students to be trained through the Military Intelligence Language School system, and this was up at Camp Savage, Minnesota, they sent recruiters out. They had already recruited about sixty from the 100th Battalion in Wisconsin in late 1942. They sent recruiters out to the war camps to try to get young guys to volunteer. And also they sent a recruiting team to Camp Shelby, Mississippi. And on our service records, I guess it showed that a lot of us went to Japanese school one hour a day after public school to learn Japanese, so people with that kind of record were asked to interview and I was called. Well, of course, I didn't want to go. I wanted to stay with my, you know, the outfit that I was training with, stay with the 442. That's when I purposely flunked and I thought I did a convincing job of showing my ignorance and incompetence in Japanese, but despite this Oscar performance, they took me anyway. [Laughs] And I was part of 250 or so that was ordered to go to Camp Savage to report for Military Intelligence training.

gky: Being from Hawai'i, you were used to being around Japanese Americans. I mean, you all are the ethnic minority here, I mean, I think majority. Can you tell me was being in the Varsity Victory Volunteers or being turned away the first time you'd ever felt discrimination, racial discrimination?

TT: Yes. Up to the time when we were discharged from the Hawai'i Territorial Guard, I mean, it was all -- you know, there was no question. We had been accepted for service and we were serving, and we felt a great deal of pride and satisfaction that we were serving our country, and then just suddenly we were dismissed, and the only reason was our ancestry. I've often looked back at that moment when we were so advised that that would be the lowest point in my life that I can remember. Just being brought up all your life, educated, being a Boy Scout and going to public schools, and just being brought up as an American kid in every way, and then suddenly you're told ineffective, you can't be trusted, you're not acceptable. This was just a devastating emotional blow.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 2001 Bridge Media and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

gky: You didn't volunteer from an internment camp, but you did volunteer. What made you volunteer?

TT: Well, you know, from the moment we were attacked at Pearl Harbor, although being the same ancestry as the enemy, there was no question, at least in my mind, and of course in the minds of many of my colleagues, that we were still Americans and that's why we responded a few minutes after the Pearl Harbor attack, to respond as university cadets and serving in the Hawai'i Territorial Guard. It was just, there was just no question. That was our obligation and duty. And then, of course, we suffered this terrible blow of being rejected because of your race and ancestry. But still, that didn't cancel out any fact that we were still Americans and our duty, our obligation was to be of service to our country. And even the triple-V experience, although we could only offer ourselves as civilians, the ultimate goal was that that was a gesture, a demonstration of our feeling of loyalty with the eventual hope that we would be, that the opportunity for military service would be restored, and that was the purpose of the VVV, at least our serving in it, and our faith was ultimately justified by the fact that they did open up military service again in the call for volunteers for the 442. So at that time, the whole group out at VVV, we voted to disband so that we could volunteer for the 442. So it was not just individual. I think all of the people in our group individually, but as a group, volunteered.

gky: So you all had to officially disband before you were allowed to volunteer for the 442nd?

TT: Yeah, well, you know, the demonstration or experience had served its real purpose. Initially, just a few weeks after the Pearl Harbor attack, initially it was at that time the tide of anti-Japanese sentiment was just at its height, plus the fear of being -- Hawai'i was in imminent danger of being invaded by Japan. It wasn't until the Battle of Midway when the Japanese navy was turned back that the feelings here, the tension and all that was alleviated or reduced. Until then, it was just an awful experience of being someone of Japanese ancestry. And so, this, you could feel this tide of fear and prejudice and resentment directed at anyone who was Japanese because in effect we were taking the hit for what the enemy did to us at Pearl Harbor. And the VVV gesture, you might say, is like the story of the little Dutch boy who stuck his finger in the dike to stop the leak that might eventually turn into a flood. I would say it had that effect of stemming a tide of -- and, of course, the authorities pointed to this triple-V demonstration or experiences as something that justified the faith of a lot of authorities that the Nisei are Americans. They're okay, they're going to be loyal and they can be trusted.

gky: When you got to Camp Shelby, did you find much difference from people from the mainland and the Nisei from Hawai'i?

TT: Yes. I had found out a difference earlier on a trip that I made in 1941 to a conference in California where we met mainland Niseis. I could tell at that time there is a difference.

gky: How would you characterize that difference?

TT: Well, although we may be ethnically, racially the same, we're products of the environment we're brought up in, and the Hawaiian Nisei is culturally a different person from those who are brought up on the continental U.S. They're much more, you might say, American. Of course, their speech is better, their reactions, their emotions, you know, they were more like the haoles on the mainland. Whereas here, we're just one of the minorities growing up, brought up in Hawai'i. Even at that time in Hawai'i, we, although we had many races, it was still a stratified society where the haole was at the top of society and it was a vertical stratification. And the people in the minority, quote, "knew their place in society," unquote. So being a minority person, or brought up as a minority person, there's an inherent, you might say, inferiority feeling, especially toward the controlling and dominant group which is the haole, or the -- especially those who are brought up on the plantation. On a plantation, the manager was like God, you know. So those, most of the people, Niseis that I knew that grew up in rural areas had very little contact with the haoles, and they always felt that they had to keep their place. Then we go to the mainland, we run into people that look like us, have the same kind of names and everything else, and yet they're talking and acting like haoles. That was a great cultural shock to most of the guys that came from Hawai'i.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 2001 Bridge Media and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

gky: I heard that at Camp Shelby there were a lot of fights between mainlanders and Hawaiians because of this feeling of difference.

TT: Yeah, there were fights, but that was part of this initial cultural shock that occurred between these two groups. The army thought yeah, they're all Japanese Americans, throw them all in together, but they didn't realize there are differences. Part of what contributed to that is that the army had a lot of Niseis in the service left over from the prewar drafts, and they didn't know what to do with them until finally this 442 project came about. And so they gathered up a whole bunch of them, sent them to Camp Shelby in January or so of 1943 to train them as cadre, meaning the leadership structure of an infantry regiment. So that meant from private first class, corporal, sergeants, staff sergeants, all the way up to first sergeants, master sergeants, they were all mainland boys. Then the whole bunch, 2,500 or so volunteers from Hawai'i went over there and we're all buck privates. So right there is again a stratified arrangement, and I think that contributed a lot. I mean, a lot of us, like myself, I was already a first sergeant in the ROTC, ready to become a second lieutenant in the reserve. And yet when I went to Shelby, I'm back to buck private again. I had enough military training and all that, but those kind of things didn't matter, see. But I'm sure that a lot of the others felt resentment of this kind of arrangement, but that's how it was. And so, when the Hawai'i boys got to Shelby, they had to be trained and ordered around by the mainland cadre. And I think that, you know, there's a language difference, cultural difference, and, of course, this, I don't know what you want to call it, a sort of an inherent characteristic of the local Nisei that they don't take crap from anybody, and sort of chip on the shoulder thing. That kind of attitude contributed toward these tensions that may have erupted into these fights.

gky: You're saying the Hawaiians had that "we don't take crap from anybody" attitude? It was the Hawaiian Nisei that had that attitude?

TT: Yeah, and usually they stuck together in groups. There's a, this is another distinguishing characteristic. The local guys are group-oriented whereas on the mainland it seemed like they brought up, you know, each had to fend for themselves type of thing. And if some Hawaiian got in trouble, especially with some haole soldier from the Texas division that wanted to hassle, all the Hawai'i guys would jump in, you know. They wouldn't let the one guy go and fight his own battle; they all jumped in and helped him. Well, eventually, I think the mainland guys got to appreciate that, that if any outsider insulted them or called them "Japs" or anything like that, the Nisei in the 442, as a group, would react and wouldn't take that kind of crap.

gky: What do you think turned the tide and made the mainland and Hawaiian people work together?

TT: Well, I would think it was the... the turning point, I think, would be the decision, whether it was official or not, to send groups of Hawai'i guys to visit the relocation camps in Jerome and Rohwer. Dan, Senator Inouye mentions that in his book that that was a turning point and, well, I was one of them. I was invited by one of the mainland guys to go with him to visit his family at Rohwer. And when we went over there, we approached the gate, we're in American uniform and yet they practically searched us and treated us with great -- they were security conscious, I guess. But we could see everyone is behind barbed wire, guard towers, the machine guns and everything are turned inward, not outward. So we realized, hey, these people are prisoners, you know. We had no idea. We in Hawai'i had not suffered that kind of experience, being forcefully evacuated and incarcerated for no reason other than your race. And so the realization hit that, hey, some of these mainland volunteers volunteered from this kind of place, from behind barbed wire. They had to sneak out at night to volunteer to escape the wrath of the diehards. And, there was not only this appreciation that this great, great injustice that was done to the Japanese Americans on the mainland, but the fact that nonetheless these guys still volunteered. There was I think a lot of newly-found respect for the mainland Nisei who did volunteer from behind barbed wire.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2001 Bridge Media and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

gky: This is tape two with Ted Tsukiyama in Honolulu, January 5th, the year 2001. Ted, what difference do you think the Kibei made in the war, in the MIS?

TT: I think the Kibei really made the MIS. That would be my opinion. Those of us who were picked to go to Camp Savage Military Intelligence school are varied in our competence and ability in the Japanese language, but most of us were not very proficient. It was only that we were more trainable than say the ordinary guy, haole or anybody else who's picked up off the street and trying to be trained, because we were brought up in a language-speaking home and went to language school for at least one hour a day, and that kind of thing. So we had this running head start. But that didn't mean we were proficient. In fact, studies show that the authorities who ran the military intelligence school at first were gravely disappointed at the non-competent level of Japanese speaking ability among the Niseis, and off the bat they could only utilize just one or two or three percent who were immediately useful. The rest had to be trained. So at the Military Intelligence School were these people who had had some education back in Japan, and those are the ones that are called Kibei, because before the war they went to Japanese school, Japan no institutions, for any number of years and then came back and a lot of them were more, you know, very poor in English and very strong in Japanese. And, of course, they were the ideal material for translations, for interrogations, especially for reading the, you know, the grass writing, all the letters that they read are written in this sort of shorthand. Sosho I think they call it. So when they made teams to be sent out to the field, they arranged the teams so that they'd have some of these Kibeis, or some of these fellows that were very good in Japanese teamed up with those who were strong in English, and I would say that I would fall in that category, because we had to translate into proper English. So, as a team -- but the key, of course, were those who were good in Japanese, and those were the Kibei. I would say that the success of the MIS contribution in World War II, I think largely must be credited to the Kibei. That's my feeling.

gky: How about culturally? Do the Kibei know, I guess, the Japanese mindset, the way the Japanese were raised, better than the Nisei would?

TT: Oh, I would say definitely, yeah. You know, you've heard stories like out in Burma, for instance, this guy in the Merrill's Marauders who had ROTC training in Japan, and he knew all the Japanese military commands and everything, and at one critical stage when his group was surrounded by the Japanese in a place called Nhpum Ga in Burma, he crept up to the Japanese lines and eavesdropped and found out about an attack that they were going to launch the next day. And not only reported that back but, at the critical stage, I understand, he jumped up and yelled, "Susume" and got the Japanese guys to charge into this trap that the Americans had set for them. Roy Matsumoto I think was his name. You know, that's a good example of the fact that they were familiar with Japanese military terms. They had been trained in the Japanese military. Well, of course, those kind of stories might be rare because most of the time, they would not allow the Niseis to be exposed right up in hand-to, front line, hand-to-hand combat situations. Most of them had to be guarded, especially in the Pacific. A lot of the Nisei interpreters who had to go up near the front lines were assigned haole bodyguards.

gky: Before when we spoke, you described, or you told a story to me about an Hawaiian and a Nisei who were guarding together, and it showed the kind of fears that the Hawaiians had about Japanese Americans. Can you relate that story to me again?

TT: Yeah. This is found in the preface to the The Ambassador in Arms, which is a story of the 100th Battalion. I think it's probably a true story rather than a, you know, a fictional one. But this is a story which takes place maybe a few weeks after the Pearl Harbor attack when the 298th Infantry was assigned to guard the beaches of Oahu. Out at the North Shore where the big surfing meets take place now, there was this machine gun pit with two 298 soldiers; one is a Hawaiian and one is a Nisei. They're sitting there waiting for hours and days for an enemy to come. The enemy never shows up. But in the meantime, this Hawaiian finally blurts out something that's been bothering him, bugging him, and turned to the Nisei guy and he says, "Hey, you stay calm. Who you going to shoot, me or them?" Which is implicit and that is a doubt. "What is your loyalty? Who are you going to be loyal to when the chips are down, you know, when the invasion comes?" And while this may have come from this local Hawaiian, I would say that that question in one form or the other was on the minds of almost anyone who is not Japanese, who lived in Hawai'i during those first few months after the Pearl Harbor attack when everyone was afraid of a invasion by Japan of Hawaii.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2001 Bridge Media and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

gky: During the war, you must have thought back to those days when you were pretty much told "we don't want, you're not American enough for us." As time wore on, how did you feel about your service to this country? Do you feel like you've vindicated yourself at all?

TT: Yeah, well, when we were finally allowed to get back in the military service, we volunteered and we were accepted and served. I would say that we basically were appreciative of that opportunity, whereas most guys who are either drafted or kind of got pushed into serving, we had a much greater sense of duty, you might say, to serve well, to not only demonstrate our loyalty but also to fight the so-called second battle which is to fight the war of prejudice and fear and distrust. You might say that almost every Nisei who fought in World War II had to fight these two battles, not only fight the Germans or the Japanese as a fighting man, but also to serve in such a manner that would distinguish themselves as not only good soldiers, but maybe valiant soldiers. And I would say that is the reason for the extraordinary high record of casualties and even KIAs by the 442, being the most decorated military unit of its size and time in battle. There was a mission to prove and I would say that that's what motivated. You know, a lot of guys will not admit this, but it was there right in the bottom of the gutter in the depth of their hearts. That's why they volunteered.

gky: You mean you guys didn't talk about it, but it was through the unwritten...

TT: Yeah, understood. That was what drove each of them to endure the training, the chicken shit of the army. You know, the army was a miserable experience, as far as I'm concerned. But it was something to be endured because of these things that I'm trying to say, that we had to be good, not only good soldiers, we had to be better than the average soldier. And I think that's the kind of thing that motivated and drove the 100th and the 442, and even the MIS.

gky: Did your parents ever say anything to you about having gone into the military?

TT: No, I never had the opportunity to talk to them, and I think -- of course, they never objected, and in fact, I think, I kind of think they would have been proud. Just like these gold star mothers that hang the gold star out in their window. They were very proud of their sons. And, of course, the Japanese upbringing is based on one of the values is "kuni no tame," it's "for the sake of the country." And in times of stress, you got to serve your country. You got to be loyal to the country, "kuni no tame." We were brought up with that.

gky: What do you think are the values that your parents instilled in you that made you volunteer, that made you want to prove yourself?

TT: I don't think that can all be quantified and identified black and white. I think it's there, you know, the so-called Japanese values, like on and giri and sekinin and all of these things that we learned in Japanese school, Japanese values or customs, cultural traits. And of course that wasn't expressly pounded into, at least in our family. But it's there. I would say that that's what made the Nisei, as an American citizen with this unique cultural background, made him a different and particularly in military service, made him a better soldier. He could endure more, he had a greater motivation, sense of duty, and a lot of the guys felt, well, they got to go out and do their thing to make life better for their families back home. That's the kind of thing that allowed them to endure.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2001 Bridge Media and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

gky: Now that you have the, now that you have fifty years of hindsight that you can look back on of experience, do you think that what you did, what your comrades did led to, helped the redress movement; Japanese Americans getting some kind of compensation and apology for what happened during the war?

TT: Oh, yes, unquestionably. I often try to envision what would have happened if the 100th and the 442 had never have went out there and compiled this kind of record that they did, especially close to eight hundred guys never coming back with us. And I feel it was because of them. Their supreme sacrifice is why I can enjoy the kind of opportunity and good life that I have enjoyed since then. I think it's kind of a given that aside from the exemplary conduct of the Japanese community as a whole. During wartime they bought war bonds, they donated blood, and they were good citizens. And there's not one act of disloyalty, or treachery, or anything like that, you know, and their conduct was exemplary. So the -- well, you know, you just can't deny; we mentioned this story, who you going to shoot, which is a question, it questions your loyalty. But, after the 100th and 442 came home, nobody asked who you going to shoot anymore, that kind of question. They put that kind of question to rest for good. And that, of course, adds into things like the drive for redress. And even, like say the monument that's being, that was just dedicated in Washington, D.C. Part of it is to recognize the contribution of the Nisei soldier during World War II as well as to commemorate this social injustice of the relocation and concentration camp experience. To remind history that that is not to happen again.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2001 Bridge Media and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

gky: We were talking about the difference between the MIS, what the MIS did and what the 100th and 442nd did.

TT: I would say that those who fought, the 100th and the 442, that went to Italy and fought against the Germans, they were serving their country by fighting the enemy. But, in contrast, when you talk about the MIS, the Nisei MIS serving in the MIS, I did, I have seen an order that prohibits any Nisei from serving in the Pacific war with the exception of those serving in Military Intelligence. So without that exception, the Nisei would not have been able to participate in the Pacific war, and to "fight against your own kind," so to speak. So I would think that the ultimate test of loyalty would be are you willing to go fight your own kind. So in looking back over my service with the MIS, although I wanted to stay with the 442, that was my original outfit, the fact that I was transferred and then trained and served with the MIS, when I look back, I can see that I was one of those of roughly 6,000 who were willing to go fight our own kind, because there was a great deal of question and doubt. Would these guys be willing to go and fight the Japanese enemy, being of the same ancestry? And the fact that 6,000 were trained and were available and sent out without one act of disloyalty, it was just a clean, unblemished record of loyalty. That really should say something about the Niseis' unquestioned loyalty to the U.S. They're even willing to go fight an enemy of their own kind, and lot of the guys had relatives. I don't know if you remember, I had a brother who was stuck in Japan before the war, I mean when the war hit, and I had no idea where he was or whether he might turn up on the other side of my gun sight. But, that didn't deter me.

gky: What did happen with him?

[Interruption]

TT: My brother was a pioneer in aeronautical engineering before the war. And he graduated in 1939 from NYU with his degree. He could, being a Japanese American, he was still not acceptable by the leading aircraft companies, Boeing, Douglas, North American. They would not hire a Nisei. So he came back to Hawai'i. Hawaiian Airlines wouldn't hire him. So somebody told him -- this is 1939, 1940 -- they said, "Why don't you go to Japan and look around?" Of course, at that time, the prevailing wisdom was that there would not be any war with Japan. So you know, this was not an act of anything out of the ordinary. So he was in Japan in 1941 checking out Mitsubishi and some of these other aircraft companies in Japan, and that's when they dropped the bomb on Pearl Harbor and he got stuck over there. So all through the war we didn't hear from him. We didn't know what happened to him.

[Interruption]

gky: You were talking about your brother. You didn't know what was going to happen to him. You didn't know what happened to him during the war. Then how did you find out what happened to him?

TT: Well, when the war was over and he finally wrote back or contacted us. And during that time, he was drafted in the Japanese army and served on Taiwan. So he was never in combat. But also, because he was a Nisei, he reported that at least two times the Japanese secret police raided his room to check up to see if he wasn't an American spy or something. So the Japanese, during the war, did not trust the Nisei.

gky: You're the second of three boys and a girl?

TT: Yes.

gky: What kind of a training did you get for being the electronic eavesdropping?

TT: Well, this group, when we graduated in February or March of 1944 from Camp Savage, a pretty large contingent, forty or fifty of us were ordered to MacDill Field, Florida, to be trained by the Signal Corps into this special training for what I call electronic eavesdropping, or voice intercept, radio intercept. So we spent about three or four months down there training, and then shipped to the West Coast, and then assigned to various what they call radio squadrons mobile, assigned to the various air forces fighting the Pacific war. In our case, we were trained for voice and code intercept, in other words, to hone in on frequencies that the Japanese military were using, the Japanese air force. In our case, when we got to India and Burma, we were, we honed in on these radio transmissions from the Japanese airfields and the communication between the tower and the fighter aircrafts. So we led a very unglamorous life, a routine life, around the clock, eight hours on and so many off, three teams. And we'd hone in to at least about six stations. Every time there was activity, we'd flip on the switch and record, and then translate the voice, hand over the code into English. And it was the air force airfield tower radioing back and forth between the fighters and the tower. And we were just out getting the raw material and translate it, and then send it in. Beyond that, we don't know what happened to it or how it was used or analyzed. We never were privy to that kind of information.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2001 Bridge Media and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

gky: This is tape three with Ted Tsukiyama, January 5th, the year 2000 in Honolulu. 2001, sorry. Okay. In October you got shipped to, or sometime in that fall, you got shipped to India. What did you do while you were in India?

TT: Well, it took us fifty-nine days by boat to get to India from Wilmington, California. We went under Australia and into the Indian Ocean over to Bombay. And then from Bombay we took an overland train. It took four or five days to reach the east side of, Calcutta side of India. Then I think we took a train up to Assam, which is the eastern border of India bordering the Burma frontier. In Assam, we set up and started to, our intercept operations from India. And then they flew us into Myitkynia, Burma, which by then had been recaptured by the Americans. We operated in Myitkynia for maybe a month or so, and then trucked down to Bhamo where we set up operations which lasted until the end of the war.

gky: How big was the unit and how big, how many Nisei were attached to it?

TT: Gee, my recollection would be about fifteen or so. I can check by the pictures.

gky: Okay, so, roughly a quarter of your, the unit was Nisei?

TT: Of this intercept group. Well, when you include all the technicians and all that who took care of the radios and so forth, yeah, we were a minority part of it, but we were the ears, you know, the listening arm of this intercept operation.

gky: And how long were you with the intercept operation?

TT: Yeah, we were assigned to what was called the 6th AF Radio Squadron Mobile, attached to the 10th Air Force in India/Burma. So we wore the air force patch. And I think you know that the air force didn't accept Niseis in, except maybe Ben Kuroki and a few exceptions, but, otherwise, we were only assigned, I guess, to the air force. So we got over to India around late October of '44, and then maybe the beginning of 1945 into Burma where we spent up to the end of the war which was September, August, September of 1945 in Burma.

gky: Do you remember what you felt when you heard that the war was over; Japan had surrendered?

TT: Oh, yeah. That was great feeling. Yes, finally. There was no riotous celebrations or anything. As I recall, there was just one immense feeling of relief that it's finally over, because we knew the Japanese would fight to the death, and we were anticipating a long, long war. Then to have it suddenly end, it was a happy surprise, but one of relief. And I think the war historians will all attest that if it wasn't for the bomb dropped, Japan would have resisted a homeland invasion and they would send children and old ladies with spears to go defend the invasion. I mean, you know, they were going to defend until the death.

gky: And yet you said at the same time, Japan thought of human life as cheap.

TT: Yeah, because honor, you know. The country is more important than the individual. I mean, that's the psyche in which the militarist regime of Japan had indoctrinated into the people and they were prepared, as they demonstrated in Okinawa, to fight to the last man. And because they fought so bitterly in Okinawa, the U.S. military realized that hey, this is going to, this is a forerunner of what we're going to encounter when we invade Japan. And that contributed largely to the decision to drop the bomb.

gky: Could you talk a little bit about the value of Japanese life? You know, you said it was worth just the money it took to mail a postcard.

TT: Oh, I picked that up as part of the research piece that I was writing on the Battle of Okinawa. The question in my mind was what made the Japanese soldier such a fanatic, so, you know, taking life so cheaply that -- and the concept of there was great dishonor in surrendering. You got to take your life as a more honorable way, which, of course, is a cheap regard for self and for life. This is instilled in the military training of the Japanese soldier. The draftee, in the Japanese army, was regarded very cheaply. As I read that they were referred to as issen gorin, which means a penny and a half, which is the price of a postcard to send to the guy that's being drafted. That's all he was worth, so to speak. They said the cavalry horse costs more, had greater value than the individual private, and that's how the Japanese army system has just built on this expendability of the human makeup of their army.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2001 Bridge Media and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

gky: How would you say that the MIS has influenced your life?

TT: Well, like I told you, I went unwillingly in the first place. The six months training of military Japanese at Camp Savage was, I guess, one of the worst experiences of my life. It was very intense, morning, noon, afternoon and then night again. And it was just a very disciplined and severe form of training, you know, crash course. And I hated it. In fact, we were happy to finally graduate and get out of there. Then, of course, we were sent out. We had no choice as to what kind of assignment we got and, in a way, this radio intercept business is very unglamorous and very routine and unexciting. There's no confrontation with the enemy and of course there's no great risk. So I didn't, you know, when I compared myself to what the 100th, 442 guys were going through, I felt almost embarrassed that my military life would be that easy. But we are told that this electronic eavesdropping, the intercept program, was a very sensitive and vital thing. In fact, it was only started in forty, late '43 to '44, and the navy would never accept Niseis for their intercept program, they deemed it that sensitive. So it was important, and as unglamorous and unexciting as it was, it still had deep military significance. So when we're told all that, why that kind of makes you feel a little better that you did make some kind of contribution, but not a very glamorous, exciting contribution.

gky: I guess it is hard to judge who had what kind of effect upon the end of the war.

TT: Yeah, yeah. Well, when you read about the other Nisei that had to go up in the front line, and we lost eleven of them, at least KIA, you know, and then to read about heroic exploits like Hoichi Kubo who went all by, practically unarmed, confronting a cave of nine armed Japanese soldiers and getting 120 or so civilians released, that kind of heroism you really got to admire, take your hat off to them.

gky: Anything else you can think about -- what did you do when did you came back and when were you discharged?

TT: I think near the end of the war when they began to see the need for occupation troops, and the value of a Japanese-speaking U.S. army personnel.

[Interruption]

gky: When did you come back and when were you discharged?

TT: Well, we heard the news of the bomb dropping when we were in Burma, and we were poised to be transferred into China to continue operations there. So we heard the news of the bomb dropping and received with great relief, but with a great deal of joy. And there was at that time a need for Japanese-speaking personnel to become part of the occupation. That's when they were asking Nisei if they would be willing to stay in and go over to Japan, but I would have nothing, no part of that. I wanted to come home and finish my education. I had been a junior when the war started. I wanted to finish my education. So I just couldn't wait to get home. So I opted to come home. It took us from, I think we left India in October and reached New York in early December. They flew us over to Marysville, California, Camp Beale. That was a port of debarkation, but for us it was our gateway to come home to Hawai'i. So I reached home here early January of '46, and I went back to University of Hawai'i immediately for one semester. But all the veterans were back in school, and for four years our, we just had a steady diet of comic books and no intellectual stimulation at all, so school was very difficult. Most of the guys are sitting under the tree fighting the war all over. It was not conducive to schooling, so I decided I'd better get out of here. The only school that had dormitory space was Indiana University. I got admitted there and finished one year, my senior year, graduated in 1947. In the meantime, I had decided on a law career, so I was accepted at the major law schools and I picked Yale Law School as the one I wanted to attend. From 1947 to 1950 I attended law school and graduated 1950, June, with a LL.B. from Yale Law School.

gky: With an LL.B or LL.D?

TT: B, Bachelor of Law.

gky: How do you think that, having gone through the war, that attitudes had changed, or had they, toward Japanese Americans?

TT: Well, I don't know, you know, I can't trace any change that might have occurred on the mainland except from reading periodicals and newspapers and so forth. Over here in Hawai'i, I would say the climate for acceptance would have been much more tolerant and easier.

[Interruption]

gky: You were talking about attitudes and changes.

TT: Yeah. I would say that in Hawai'i, there would be more people that were, had lived with Japanese all their lives and they, most of them, probably had no question about the basic loyalty of Japanese Americans. In fact, like all the news of the 100th, 442 had come back, and the community was very proud, and the press and everything else. These were Hawai'i's own and brought great pride to Hawai'i. So here in Hawaii, the tide of any fear, or distrust, or prejudice would have turned as the news of the successes of the 100th, 442 came back. On the mainland, I think it might have been slower and more difficult because the greater mass of the population had never had any contact with Japanese Americans, and all they can do is read about the fact that there's this Nisei unit in the U.S. Army that did do a good job. But, certainly, there was not any of this, you know, the kind of hysteria that prevailed in California in the early '42s. And, so, yeah, I have to say that the military service and record of the Nisei during World War II did very much to turn any tide of anti-Asian or anti-Japanese feelings in a positive direction.

gky: We'll end there. Thank you very much.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2001 Bridge Media and Densho. All Rights Reserved.