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gky: This is tape two with Ted Tsukiyama in Honolulu, January 5th, the year 2001. Ted, what difference do you think the Kibei made in the war, in the MIS?

TT: I think the Kibei really made the MIS. That would be my opinion. Those of us who were picked to go to Camp Savage Military Intelligence school are varied in our competence and ability in the Japanese language, but most of us were not very proficient. It was only that we were more trainable than say the ordinary guy, haole or anybody else who's picked up off the street and trying to be trained, because we were brought up in a language-speaking home and went to language school for at least one hour a day, and that kind of thing. So we had this running head start. But that didn't mean we were proficient. In fact, studies show that the authorities who ran the military intelligence school at first were gravely disappointed at the non-competent level of Japanese speaking ability among the Niseis, and off the bat they could only utilize just one or two or three percent who were immediately useful. The rest had to be trained. So at the Military Intelligence School were these people who had had some education back in Japan, and those are the ones that are called Kibei, because before the war they went to Japanese school, Japan no institutions, for any number of years and then came back and a lot of them were more, you know, very poor in English and very strong in Japanese. And, of course, they were the ideal material for translations, for interrogations, especially for reading the, you know, the grass writing, all the letters that they read are written in this sort of shorthand. Sosho I think they call it. So when they made teams to be sent out to the field, they arranged the teams so that they'd have some of these Kibeis, or some of these fellows that were very good in Japanese teamed up with those who were strong in English, and I would say that I would fall in that category, because we had to translate into proper English. So, as a team -- but the key, of course, were those who were good in Japanese, and those were the Kibei. I would say that the success of the MIS contribution in World War II, I think largely must be credited to the Kibei. That's my feeling.

gky: How about culturally? Do the Kibei know, I guess, the Japanese mindset, the way the Japanese were raised, better than the Nisei would?

TT: Oh, I would say definitely, yeah. You know, you've heard stories like out in Burma, for instance, this guy in the Merrill's Marauders who had ROTC training in Japan, and he knew all the Japanese military commands and everything, and at one critical stage when his group was surrounded by the Japanese in a place called Nhpum Ga in Burma, he crept up to the Japanese lines and eavesdropped and found out about an attack that they were going to launch the next day. And not only reported that back but, at the critical stage, I understand, he jumped up and yelled, "Susume" and got the Japanese guys to charge into this trap that the Americans had set for them. Roy Matsumoto I think was his name. You know, that's a good example of the fact that they were familiar with Japanese military terms. They had been trained in the Japanese military. Well, of course, those kind of stories might be rare because most of the time, they would not allow the Niseis to be exposed right up in hand-to, front line, hand-to-hand combat situations. Most of them had to be guarded, especially in the Pacific. A lot of the Nisei interpreters who had to go up near the front lines were assigned haole bodyguards.

gky: Before when we spoke, you described, or you told a story to me about an Hawaiian and a Nisei who were guarding together, and it showed the kind of fears that the Hawaiians had about Japanese Americans. Can you relate that story to me again?

TT: Yeah. This is found in the preface to the The Ambassador in Arms, which is a story of the 100th Battalion. I think it's probably a true story rather than a, you know, a fictional one. But this is a story which takes place maybe a few weeks after the Pearl Harbor attack when the 298th Infantry was assigned to guard the beaches of Oahu. Out at the North Shore where the big surfing meets take place now, there was this machine gun pit with two 298 soldiers; one is a Hawaiian and one is a Nisei. They're sitting there waiting for hours and days for an enemy to come. The enemy never shows up. But in the meantime, this Hawaiian finally blurts out something that's been bothering him, bugging him, and turned to the Nisei guy and he says, "Hey, you stay calm. Who you going to shoot, me or them?" Which is implicit and that is a doubt. "What is your loyalty? Who are you going to be loyal to when the chips are down, you know, when the invasion comes?" And while this may have come from this local Hawaiian, I would say that that question in one form or the other was on the minds of almost anyone who is not Japanese, who lived in Hawai'i during those first few months after the Pearl Harbor attack when everyone was afraid of a invasion by Japan of Hawaii.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2001 Bridge Media and Densho. All Rights Reserved.