<Begin Segment 17>

RN: Okay, so... I'm sorry, I got everything mixed up. So I was a photojournalist and then I got drafted, that's 1961, and I'm sorry, I forgot two big things. I was photographer for Charles Eames right after I got out of the army, from '61 to '63, and then I opened my studio.

SY: I was going to ask you about that. That was like... so that was a stepping stone to your own...

RN: Well, yeah, to my own work and more serious approach to the arts. And I learned so much working at... in fact, I had to unlearn so much from my Art Center training, which they build a lot of biases and kind of restrict you with certain ideals, what's aesthetic and what's not, what is good lighting and bad lighting, all of that. Art Center gave me a very, very good discipline, training and discipline and working, but a lot of their ideas of what photography is and definition of art and all of that, I had to kind of unlearn, which I unlearned at Eames, experience.

SY: So Art Center was sort of more aesthetic effect?

RN: No, they were much more formal. They had a lot of rules that later, working at this very creative studio...

SY: You had to break.

RN: Yeah, that I realized that these guys were so good that they broke rules. Like Charles, like if you worked at Eames, I was hired as a photographer and darkroom, I did all the, we did a lot of, mostly black and white, but the second day I came there, I was shooting 16-milimeter film and I had no background, and then a week later I was doing the animation. So his whole idea of the staff there was we would do anything. This is the staff that we didn't stay within our job descriptions, because one thing is he didn't like experts. He said, "When you hire an expert, he or she comes in with certain baggage and a way to do things." So when you're trying something new... you might hire a consultant, but he doesn't hire a so-called "expert" to come in and do it, and we'd just start researching and experimenting. So it was that kind of thing, he broke all the rules that I had learned at Art Center. In fact, he kind of joked with me, he says, "I'll bet you learned that at Art Center," I said, "Yeah." So I learned, I think, what was, really what was creativity. And also the intensity and focus we really needed to produce really good work. And so there was no mumbo jumbo about aesthetics for Charles. It was, "We have a problem, we have to solve it, and we don't care about form until it fulfills function." And so I just learned a lot of counter Art Center things there. So it was a very, very... it was kind of a life changing time in my life, artistically, creatively.

SY: And you learned other media, too?

RN: Yeah.

SY: So that was your first foray into film.

RN: Yeah. He was doing a big multi-screen film for the U.S. Information Agency. They had a big fair in Moscow, in fact, it was... the Russians had a fair over here to show Russian culture, and we had a big fair and he was doing a six screen film. Yeah, it was terrific, 'cause he had, just by... there's no voiceover or anything, but you had six screens that had supermarket parking lots, and that's all you can see. So without saying anything, the idea of wealth, that everyone has a car, and shots of the freeway all done on the multi screen. So anyway, it was a great experience.

SY: And how was it that you came to be hired there? Was it just on your...

RN: Well, it's kind of a funny story, shows you how stupid I was. I came out of the service and I didn't want to start up magazine work again. So one of my former professors at Art Center said, "Well, Charles Eames is looking for a photographer. Why don't you check that out?" I thought he made furniture and that's it. I didn't realize he was a world famous, I mean, he revolutionized the chair and building his house, anyway, being the architect and filmmaker. I didn't know any of that, which is probably good because I think then I would have been very intimidated. But not knowing this, I went to the studio in Venice and Washington Boulevard. And I saw this guy, there's a little vacant lot right next to the studio and this guy had a tray and he was eating lunch. And I stopped and I said, "Is this the Charles Eames studio?" he said, "Yeah, just go in there." So I went in there and I talked to the receptionist, "I have an appointment with Charles to show him my portfolio." She said, "Oh, he's out on the side having lunch." [Laughs] So this old guy, and I think he had his, no tie or anything. So he looked at my portfolio and didn't say much. He says, "Well, you could start today, but why don't you come back dressed for work?" 'Cause I had put on a suit, I hate wearing a suit and tie. I had put on a suit and everything, so, "Why don't you come back when you're dressed for it?" So I started the next day.

SY: And you really had... so you had a lot of interaction with him?

RN: Oh, yeah. Everyone, yeah, there's no hierarchy, you're always working under Charles.

SY: And the organization was how many like you who were doing the creative...

RN: Oh, permanent staff was maybe ten or twelve. That included some of the, even the people who worked on the furniture design would help in the films. So there was about twelve people including the design staff. But the design staff would work either on the exhibits or they'd work on furniture.

SY: It sounds like a wonderful place. You were there only the three years?

RN: Yeah, well, see, and that's the downside of it, is you either stay there and become a monk, I mean, you literally, with no exaggeration, you worked seven days a week, twelve hours a day, I mean, literally. It was very exciting, very focused, very creative, 'cause you were building toward this great project, but after a while, it got to be where I'd just go home to sleep. In fact, I'd get a paycheck and I'd throw it in a drawer at home, I was living in this apartment, and when the drawer filled up, then I know I'd go to the bank. So I didn't spend any money either other than literally it was that kind of... I guess if I stayed there, it would have been a whole different career for me, but I said, "I can't do this." Get a life, Bob, right? And I feel very fortunate, 'cause there were always people willing to work free, find students, architect students from Sweden and Finland camped out at his doorstep and all of those things. 'Cause a lot of people asked me the same question, "Well, how come you left?" I'd say it's because I had to make a choice. 'Cause that was it, you'd be total Eames person.

SY: And so you thought that by going out on your own...

RN: Well, I just had to leave, and I didn't even know what I was going to do, I just had to leave. Then I quit.

<End Segment 17> - Copyright © 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.