<Begin Segment 13>

SY: So they were large enough that how many families could live on one island?

NG: Okay, so like Mandeville Island -- I don't know about the others -- Mandeville Island, go on this bumpy, bumpy, terrible road -- maybe you could go five miles an hour -- it would take you an hour to go around.

SY: The whole island.

NG: Uh-huh. So it's big. And the, so there was, like, Camp 1 and there must've been I don't know how many bunk, bunkhouses there, and little individual little shack kind of houses, all had outhouses at the beginning. So there were several families there, and lots of bachelors. And then the next one I can't remember the number, but it had a -- that camp had a mess hall where somebody was the cook and then the next island was, the mess hall was a boat -- or no, a barge -- and they had, I don't know what kind of... anyway, a barge, and that's where the mess hall was. And they had bunkhouses, and they had Japanese baths. Someone, they built it. Mostly bachelors. There were just Japanese Americans and, well Isseis also, and illegals that came, that worked there.

SY: Illegal...

NG: Mexicans.

SY: Mexicans.

NG: And then -- who lived there in those bunkhouses -- and then our camp, well, our first camp was 13, way on the other side of the island, and there were only two families, three families there. But then there was another camp, one family right where the, the shop -- they called it the shop -- where all the trucks... so the island was owned by Roscoe Zuckerman, Jewish man, who had a farm before the war and it flooded. They were susceptible to floods up there. And the Japanese people stayed and helped him reclaim the land, so after the war when we couldn't find, Japanese people couldn't find work, he was more than happy to hire them, so that's why there were so many Japanese people there.

SY: I see.

NG: And so Camp 21, that was a big one, big bunkhouse, and another, also a mess hall with the women cooking there. And then 13 was so far that we moved a little closer, and there was only two families, us and a Mexican American family that was next door. And he, so the, Zuckerman bought everything, he used army surplus, so like I had said, the foremen all drove around in a jeep, we went to school in an ambulance, army ambulance, and we went to a schoolroom, two room, two house, one was a Quonset hut and the daughter taught kinder, I don't remember kinder, first through fourth. And then the regular, regular nice schoolhouse, the mother taught from fifth through eighth.

SY: So this is the daughter of the man who...

NG: No, no, no. No. They were just, they were teachers that came and, they lived in Stockton and they drove in every day to teach. But it was the --

SY: I see. They happened to be mother and daughter.

NG: Mother and daughter, yeah.

SY: I see. So this, this little island you didn't really go off of, except later on when you went to high school.

NG: Right. Well, when we first got there the only way to get to this island was you had to cross two ferries, so you, I think it was called Henningtrack. We went from, came from Stockton and then you, as a kid you just, how could this ferry carry cars? It's gonna sink, you know? And on weekends when we're, everybody's going to Stockton, there'll be like six cars. I mean, they would just be right at the end of the ferry. I was always scared. So you had to cross that ferry and then you had to cross the ferry from Bacon Island to our island. And it was private; they always had someone to run the ferry, of course. Then the kids that went to high school, when we first moved there they went in on like a tug boat to Stockton to school. Then later when they built the barge, even the one for, not the one, I don't remember that other barge, but the one from Bacon to Mandeville always had a guard. They always, he just didn't come over. He had to...

SY: So do you think that this man, Zuckerman, that he owned all the property? Owned...

NG: I don't think, I wonder if he owned, I don't think he owned the land. I'm not sure.

SY: But it, clearly it was for farming.

NG: It was called Mandeville Island. It was not called, all his products were Zuckerman potatoes and everything, but I don't know if he owned the island. Not quite, I don't know.

SY: And it was very, it sounds like it was similar in feel to camp.

NG: Yeah.

SY: Because you lived in --

NG: Right.

SY: -- communal barracks, kind of like?

NG: Well no, the families, every family had their own home. Our first home -- well, I don't remember Camp 13, but when we moved closer -- they're shacks. I mean, if you drove and looked at it you would say, oh my gosh, do people live like this? With the outhouse and everything. And it had, so anyway, that house burned. I can't remember that house. Sort of, I can sort of remember the bathroom, but I really can't remember. But anyway, that house burned down 'cause next door this family was careless with their kerosene or their, the stove, and it caught fire and we wake up in this blaze.

SY: You were there? You remember this fire?

NG: Oh yeah. Yeah, 'cause I'm already, what, I'm already, we're already in school. And middle of the night and we're -- you know, that's, I should tell you the other story too. This is before the, that's right, they were not the first family. There was a Japanese American family living next door first, and he was an alcoholic. He also worked with my dad as a mechanic, and he was an alcoholic. And his, they had a son, two sons and a daughter in the middle, and the son was a bully. Used to... he was a bully, anyway, but the daughter was just about a year older than me and she was, my mother loved her because she was just this wonderful girl. And so she was like, my mother used her to get me on the straight and narrow 'cause Mary was just such a sweet girl. [Laughs] But so I guess the mother had, like, mental issues, or maybe it was because of the father drinking, so one middle of the night there's banging at the door and it's the husband, and she had committed suicide. She had cut her wrist and she was floating in the river, so my mother, my father swam, went to get her, but she was already dead.

SY: Wow.

NG: But it was interesting because -- so the police came and everything -- the first thing the father did was bring all his liquor and I remember my dad pouring it down the toilet, or the drain, before the police came. But with, after she died this, I'm wondering who they were, but it was a Japanese man, the relative -- I don't, still don't know -- and with a hakujin, beautiful hakujin woman was his wife. And I think it was a, that was, like, the beginning of my seeing how we saw ourselves. I felt like my mom was definitely in deference to her, like she was special because she was white. She didn't say that, but just the way she, it was, like, a big deal that this woman was in our home, you know?

SY: Interesting.

NG: Yeah, I just...

SY: Remember that clearly.

NG: Yeah, I remember that clearly, and so it had a lot of effect on me later on, thinking about, yeah, we really, when I went through my trying to see who I was, I think I saw that we, those subtle things just... how you really saw yourself.

SY: Right.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.