Densho Digital Archive - Akira Kageyama Interview

Densho Digital Archive
Friends of Manzanar Collection
Title: Akira Kageyama Interview
Narrator: Akira Kageyama
Interviewer: Martha Nakagawa
Location: Lomita, California
Date: May 5, 2012
Densho ID: denshovh-kakira-01-

<Begin Segment 1>

MN: May 5, 2012, we are at the residence of the Kageyama family in Lomita, California. We're going to be interviewing Akira Frank Kageyama, we have Tani Ikeda on video, we have sitting in Dr. Glenn Kageyama and Akira's wife, Mrs. Keiko Kageyama. Okay. Frank, or Akira I guess, I don't know which you prefer, but Akira...

AK: It doesn't matter.

MN: Let's start with your father's name.

AK: Tomitaro.

MN: What is his last name? It wasn't Kageyama, right?

AK: No, that was my mother's last... Moritoki. That was his name, Moritoki.

MN: Which prefecture did your father come from?

AK: Okayama, I think.

MN: And let me ask you about your mother's name. What is, what was her name?

AK: Machi, Machi... hey, what was her family name?

GK: Kageyama.

AK: Family name Kageyama, that's why she kept...

MN: And which prefecture did your mother come from?

KK: Chiba.

AK: Chiba, I think. Near Tokyo.

MN: Do you know how your parents met?

AK: I guess they met over here. That was a long time ago.

MN: Were they working, let's see, they were both working in Little Tokyo?

AK: Uh-huh. My mother was a barber, and my father had a hotel, and he lost all of it to some (swindler) that, a lot of Japanese lost a lot of things.

MN: So your father was doing very well. Do you know how many hotels he had owned?

AK: No, three is the one, is all I know. I was just a kid so I never asked anything.

MN: How did he lose his money?

AK: [Looks off camera] Gee, you don't remember? He owned a lot of, like two or three hotels, and somebody needed money and they talked him into investing it in some kind of oil, and he lost all of it. That's it.

MN: Now, I want to ask about the children in the family. Your parents, how many children did they have in total?

AK: I never asked.

MN: No, the children your parents, your mother and your father, how many children did they have? They had you.

AK: There were five of us.

KK: It was you, Fumi --

AK: My mother, let's see, and my father, my side...

MN: You, and then Fumi...

KK: Mae.

AK: Mae...

MN: Then Mary, right?

AK: And Mary.

MN: And then Tilly?

AK: Tilly, yeah.

KK: Tilly, and Susumu.

AK: Hmm?

KK: Susumu, Bill.

AK: Yeah. Bill, yeah. Susumu. That makes six?

MN: Five. Or six, yes, six with Susumu. And then where are you? Are you the oldest?

AK: I'm the oldest.

MN: And what year were you born?

AK: I think it was 1916. [To wife] You remember?

KK: 1916.

AK: '16.

MN: And where were you born?

AK: In Los Angeles.

MN: And when you were born, what was your birth name?

AK: You mean the last name?

MN: Your first name, last name. You were not Frank, right?

AK: No, it was Akira, Akira, I think Akira Moritoki, my father.

MN: And why did you change to your mother's last name, Kageyama?

AK: Well, my father died when I was about fourteen or fifteen and she remarried Mr. Fukawa, and I didn't want to change my name from Moritoki to Fukawa, so I just took my mother's family name. That's why, that's how I stuck to it. Too much explaining why. [Laughs]

[Interruption]

AK: Let's see, I think was born a Watanabe. My mother married a Watanabe.

MN: No, she married Fukawa.

AK: Later.

MN: Yeah.

AK: Later she married, the first one was Moritoki. She met him over here.

MN: Yeah, and then you took on the name Frank later on. When did you get the name Frank?

AK: When I started to go to school, I had, and they always asked me what my first name is and I keep, "Akira, Akira." And a lot of these Caucasians, they can't remember. [Laughs] So I said, "Well, I might as well call myself Frank." That's how.

MN: Where did you pick that name from?

AK: Somebody on the TV, I think. I can't remember. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 2>

MN: Now, when you were born, what were your parents doing for a living?

AK: They were both a barber.

MN: Do you remember which grammar school you went to?

AK: [Shakes head] We moved so many times that...

MN: When you were in the --

AK: Mostly at Maryknoll, I think.

MN: How close did you live to Maryknoll?

AK: At one time we were, I was right across the street.

MN: So if you lived right across the street, were you always on time?

AK: No. [Laughs] Not always. A lot of time I'd wait 'til the bell rings, so I rush and then sometimes I forget something, I have to go back to the house to get it and then I'm tardy.

MN: Now, when you were living in that area, did your parents do mochitsuki during the Oshogatsu?

AK: No, that was later on, when we moved to the hotel. Either my mother or father knew the owner, and they had us move in. I don't know how that name came. At first, I was born a Watanabe, and then she divorced and met Moritoki, and then... I don't remember if they got married or not.

MN: Okay. Okay. Let's go to the mochitsuki, and so you remember they, you were living in a hotel --

AK: Hotel, uh-huh.

MN: -- and then that's where you had the mochitsuki?

AK: Yes.

MN: You know, when you were growing up, what kind of food did your mother cook for you?

AK: Mostly Japanese. I guess you call it okazu. She didn't know how to cook anything else.

MN: What kind of okazu, though? With, like, just shoyu?

AK: With, yeah, shoyu and with a lot of vegetables.

MN: Did a sakanayasan come to your place?

AK: Yeah. Yeah, once a week he used to come around.

MN: What did you buy from the sakanayasan?

AK: Gee, I don't know.

MN: Did they sell other things, like tofu, konyaku, kamaboko?

AK: Yeah, I don't remember. I was a little kid then, so I wasn't paying attention. But I know we ate a lot of those foods, but I don't know where they got it.

MN: How often did you go into Japantown?

AK: My mother was a barber, she had a barbershop in Japantown, and so I was with them all the time. I would be playing in front, on the sidewalk.

MN: What kind of games did you play?

AK: Mostly marbles, and there's a little, the sidewalk has a marking of squares, they were all squares. Well, we'd get a soda water cap, we collected that, and we had one that we stuffed a lot of gum or something to make it heavy, so there is a big square, we'd try to... it recedes from the line and then if we knock one out we get to keep it, see who gets the most. That's about all we played, 'cause it was a sidewalk where my mother was.

MN: How about Japanese school? Did you go to Japanese school?

AK: I went to Japanese school. My mother sent me to Japanese school, but I don't know how old I was. I don't remember.

MN: Do you remember which Japanese school you went to?

AK: Yeah, that was a famous... [to wife] do you remember? The Japanese school?

KK: Didn't you learn at Maryknoll?

AK: A little bit. They had a nun there that, there's a nun there that taught a little bit. But there was a...

MN: Daiichi Gakuen?

AK: Yes.

MN: You went to Daiichi Gakuen?

AK: Uh-huh.

<Begin Segment 3>

MN: I want to ask a little bit about your family, your parents. You mentioned how, about your father, he was a very successful businessman. I want to ask about your mother because she was very talented.

AK: She knew, I think she was the only one at that time, she was the only one that knew how to... odori, Japanese odori, and she played the shamisen. She used to play the shakuhachi and violin. She played almost all the instruments. She, in Japan she came from a pretty rich family, see, so I guess that's when she learned it.

MN: So she played Japanese instruments and also Western instruments? You said the violin?

AK: Violin, uh-huh.

MN: How about, like, the piano?

AK: I don't remember that. I don't remember that. She used to play violin and mostly shamisen, and she played that flute, the bamboo.

MN: Shakuhachi?

AK: Yeah, I guess that's what it's called.

MN: Now, she played the shakuhachi, did she play the saxophone?

AK: She played a little bit of saxophone.

MN: Did she sing at all?

AK: Yeah, she knew all the Japanese, she used to teach Japanese songs.

MN: What kind of singing? Like shigin? There's shigin, gidayuu, jourori.

AK: Both joururi and gidayuu, a lot of that odori music that I don't know the name of it.

MN: Now, did your mother give a lot of lessons on these different instruments and singing?

AK: Uh-huh.

MN: Where did she give these lessons at?

AK: In the house. In our (home).

MN: Do you know if she was getting paid?

AK: I don't think so. I don't think she was getting paid. She loved to teach, so she, any children that were interested, she used to teach. All the mothers want (her) to teach, so they have 'em come over to our house to learn.

MN: Now, did your mother, did she give performances also?

AK: Yeah, she played the shamisen, and when the girls used to dance, Japanese dance, she played the shamisen and sang.

MN: Where did they usually perform at?

AK: There was a Japanese, Japanese school called Daiichi Gakuen, and they had a big hall, so I know once in a while they'd have a party and she'd perform. At that time she was the only one that knew how to play shamisen, but later on more came from Japan. She was here pretty early, that's why.

MN: How about like at the kenjinkai picnics?

AK: Yeah, picnic too.

MN: Did she perform at Koyasan?

AK: Yeah, that's her favorite place.

MN: Did your mother ever try to teach you how to play an instrument?

AK: I didn't want to.

MN: How about your sisters, did your mother teach --

AK: Yeah, I think oldest sister tried shamisen, and one of 'em learned the, with the bamboo, shakuhachi. She was teaching them, but I don't think they were interested and didn't last very long.

<Begin Segment 4>

MN: Now, when you were growing up, did you get involved in any sports activities?

AK: Yeah, mostly baseball, sandlot baseball -- softball, I mean -- and football too. There's a group of us would get together and we'd play some other gang.

MN: Was your team all Japanese Americans?

AK: Yeah, all of 'em.

MN: And what, where did you usually play at?

AK: Some parking lot or wherever. A lot of times during the day all the cars gone 'cause they all went to work, so a lot of space, that's the time we picked and practice and play. And sometimes when we're playing another game, we'd challenge each other and we would go to school, back and then play.

MN: When you were growing up and you were on the baseball team, did you play against the Olivers?

AK: Let's see, I don't remember. I think I was past that age when they were playing together.

MN: How about the beach? Did your parents take you down to the beach?

AK: Yeah, we used to go to the beach quite a bit.

MN: Which one did you go to?

AK: I don't know the name of the... I think one of 'em was called Sunset Beach, if it's still there or not.

MN: How about, like, Brighton Beach or White Point?

AK: Yeah, yeah, those two, White Point they all had that picnic like thing, that my mother used to perform.

MN: Now, your son shared about the time that you almost drowned in the L.A. River. Can you share with us that story?

AK: Yeah, we were in, we had a big dory, great big dory, and we pushed it down -- the L.A. River was pretty full when it was flowing -- so we pushed that dory to the river and then, and two other friends that, three of us got on and we were, I remember that it was like a lake then. And I fell, and I still remember, when I fell, I still remember seeing something in the water. Still comes to me. And then they pulled me up, and we didn't want to tell our parents 'cause they'd give us heck, so we burned a, started a fire and then we, it just dried us off, and then we came home. They didn't want me to go anywhere near the river.

MN: Your son was also talking about how you used to play at the Evergreen Cemetery.

AK: Yeah, hide and go seek over there. [Laughs] That's right.

[Interruption]

MN: Now, we were talking about how you used to play at the Evergreen Cemetery. Did you ever get in trouble?

AK: No. Maybe we did, I don't remember. But we just played hide and go seek behind the tombstones and were running around, but I don't think we got any trouble. We didn't do any damage. We were just hiding behind the stones.

MN: Weren't you scared, playing in a cemetery?

AK: I don't know anything about that. [Laughs] I was a little kid then.

<Begin Segment 5>

MN: Now, you started to grow plants at a very young age. How old were you when you started to grow plants?

AK: When we were living in the hotel. Yeah, I don't know how, I guess I was about ten or twelve. In the parking lot inside the hotel, and I noticed that nobody used the corner, so I don't know who the owner was, so I start digging up the ground there and start planting things. And nobody said anything, so I just kept on planting.

MN: What did you plant?

AK: Gee, I don't know. Anything that was easy. All I had to do was just throw the seeds in there.

MN: Where did you get your seeds?

AK: Well, there's a lot of, most of the stores had small packages of seeds of lettuce and carrots and things like that, simple things.

MN: But when you first started, did somebody give you seeds to start planting?

AK: I don't know where I got the seeds. Maybe my dad got the seeds for me. He was glad I was doing that instead of doing something harmful. That's the best thing for me, so that's how I got interested in plants.

MN: What was the first flower that you grew?

AK: Zinnia, I think it was, or dahlia. Dahlia was easy 'cause it was a bulb. All I had to do was water and it'd bloom. And later on I start looking at the seed catalog, and bought this and that and tried, and a lot of 'em I didn't know how to grow 'em so it didn't survive.

MN: How about cosmos?

AK: Yeah, maybe that was the first flower I grew. It was a tall one. I still remember it was a pink one and it was tall.

[Interruption]

MN: What did your mother do with the vegetables that you grew?

AK: Whatever we didn't need, we shared with the people in the hotel.

MN: What kind of vegetables did you grow?

AK: Mostly to eat, I think, carrots and... I tried everything, but then I don't remember everything. I remember the easiest one was daikon, some kind of a nappa, I think. That's about all I remember.

<Begin Segment 6>

MN: So now, when you were growing up you lost both of your parents. You mentioned this earlier, but I'm gonna ask you again. How old were you when you lost your father?

AK: I guess I must've been about fourteen. Yeah, my father went first. I was about fourteen.

MN: Do you know how old your father was?

AK: He used to be a janitor at Japanese school, and I used to, nighttime I used to go with him and help him clean up and everything, straighten out the chairs, and used to... I think we had a bus, but someplace where the bus can't go or too full, my father used to go pick them up.

MN: So he drove the bus also?

AK: No, not the bus, this small car. It was an old Dodge, only about four people, four children.

MN: Now, your father, what did he die from?

AK: Pneumonia.

MN: Do you remember who took care of the funeral arrangements? [AK shakes head] Could it be Fukui?

AK: Could be. That's the only one I know that's been around then.

MN: Where is your father buried?

AK: In Evergreen.

MN: Do you remember which temple your father's funeral was held at?

AK: I think it was Daiichi Gakuen, Daiichi Gakuen.

MN: Not Koyasan?

AK: I don't think so. Gee, I don't remember.

KK: It must've been held at the Koyasan.

AK: Hmm?

KK: It must've been held at Koyasan.

AK: Koyasan.

KK: 'Cause your mother was affiliated with the Koyasan.

MN: Your mother was really active at Koyasan. What did she do for Koyasan?

AK: Any time they have some kind of get together, well, she used to teach the Japanese dance to girls, and she had them, she played the shamisen and they all danced, and that's how they entertained the audience there.

MN: Did you get involved with the Koyasan Boy Scouts?

AK: I don't think so.

KK: I don't think they had such a thing at that time.

MN: Before the war?

AK: They did. Something tells me that they didn't want me in there, I was so bad. That's all I remember. [Laughs] I tried to get in and they wouldn't let me in.

MN: To the Boy Scouts?

AK: Uh-huh.

MN: Now, your father passed away, and at that time it would be really hard for a single mother to raise a family. Did your mother remarry?

AK: Yes, later on. I don't know how many years afterward. He married, and they had one son, and then I don't know how long they were married, but then he took his son and went back to Japan, and we never heard of him after that.

MN: And then your mother also passed away. How old were you when she passed away?

AK: I don't remember.

MN: Were you in high school?

AK: Yeah, I guess I don't remember that part. I still, I think I was still in grammar school. I'm not sure.

MN: When your mother passed away?

AK: The school that I went to, when my mother remarried, married to a man named Moritoki -- no, maybe he was my father. I don't remember.

MN: Mr. Moritoki passed away, and then your mother married Mr. Fukawa.

AK: Fukawa.

MN: And then your mother passed away, and then weren't you going to University High School?

AK: Yes.

MN: Do you remember what your mother passed away from?

AK: I don't know. It must, might've been another childbirth.

<Begin Segment 7>

MN: When your mother passed away, did people want to adopt your younger siblings, or did they want to put you into the Shonien?

AK: Yeah, she had a lot of friends and they all, they want us. But I was old enough to take care of them, so I held 'em all together and I never let anybody get away.

MN: But you're still a high school student. How did you support your younger --

AK: No, I had to work and so I went to night school.

MN: So you quit high school?

AK: Yeah, well, during the day, and I went to night school. I don't know, I think it was, they were teaching the same thing. I don't know.

MN: Now, before you quit high, University High School, you took a horticulture class. How did you do in this class?

AK: I did pretty good 'cause I love plants. And that teacher gave me a lot of things that he wouldn't trust to other... those things have to be there no matter when, to be watered and everything, and I did, I took care of all that.

MN: Is this the teacher that wrote to UC Davis?

AK: I don't know who did.

MN: But you got a scholarship to UC Davis, didn't you?

AK: I don't remember that. All I know is I was heading for there, but I don't know if I got a scholarship. There was another teacher there, I forgot his name, Boswell or something like that, he's the one that tried to get me to go to college, and I think it was Davis College. But then both my father and mother's gone, and I had four sisters, so somebody's got to feed 'em, so I quit school and I worked, I went to school at nighttime.

MN: Do you remember where you went to school for night school?

AK: Yeah, I think it was, I think it was the high school that I used to go, at University High School.

MN: Now, during the day, what kind of work did you do?

AK: Well, gardening, mostly gardening. I'd help a landscaper.

MN: Is that how you got started?

AK: Uh-huh.

MN: And so you helped this landscaper, when did you go out on your own?

AK: I think about that time the war started, so we were all back into camp, and after I got out of camp, that's the only thing I knew, so I picked up work here and there gardening.

MN: Now, when you started gardening, before the war, you were able to get your sister Mary private singing lessons. How did you manage that?

AK: The teacher's name was Snyder, and he had, saw the potential in my sister, so he didn't hardly charge anything. He had a little bit, but... he had her sing, he had her sing here and there, and then that's how he got more students.

MN: Now, before the war and before your parents passed away, you used to grow vegetables. Did you continue to grow vegetables?

AK: Yeah, I've been growing it all my life. Everything from junior high school on.

MN: So this helped feed the family also.

AK: Yeah.

MN: How about chickens? Did you have chickens?

AK: We had a few, but then I hate to kill 'em, so I quit raising them. Got so close to the chicken that it got to be my pet, so I gave it all away. Yeah, I remember when I chopped the head off and that chicken was running all over the yard without the head. That made me sick, so I quit.

MN: Now, your sister Fumi that's right below you, after you quit high school and you're gardening to help the family, how did Fumi help?

AK: She worked in the market, a vegetable market.

MN: Did Fumi continue with high school also?

AK: Gee, I don't remember. I don't think so.

MN: So she might've had to quit high school like you. Now, once you're the head of the household, what was your work schedule like? Did you work seven days a week?

AK: No, I wasn't that crazy. I had to have my fun, so I'd go out, I used to play baseball and football. I got to have some time.

MN: How about, like going skating at the Shrine, did you do things like that?

AK: Yeah. I don't know how old I was. I did go roller skating. I remember all the flop that I got. [Laughs]

MN: And your wife mentioned you used to take a lot of dates to the Palladium.

AK: A lot of what?

MN: Dates.

AK: Yeah.

MN: You took them dancing at the Palladium?

AK: Yeah, I think so. I think that's about all I know, where I went dancing.

<Begin Segment 8>

MN: I'm gonna get into the war years, okay? Do you remember what you were doing on Sunday, December 7, 1941?

AK: That was on a Sunday, I think, but then I was gardening then.

MN: How did you hear about Pearl Harbor?

AK: All on the radio, and everybody starts talking about it.

MN: On Monday, when you went to your gardening route, did any of your customers tell you not to come back?

AK: No, I don't think none of 'em did.

MN: Later on, the government put out a travel restriction. Did that affect your gardening route?

AK: No.

MN: How did you feel when you heard you had to go into camp?

AK: I didn't know what I was, I didn't know what's gonna happen, so I didn't know what to feel.

MN: Did you ever think about moving out of the military zone and going to Colorado or somewhere else?

AK: [Shakes head] Later on I found out that I had dependents, so I didn't have to go to the service.

MN: Now, before you went into camp, did you try to talk to the government official to try to not go into camp?

AK: No. Well, I was happy to go in, I think.

MN: Did anyone you know go into Manzanar early and write to you?

AK: No, I don't remember.

MN: So you didn't have a friend that went into Manzanar and wrote back to you and said it's not too bad?

AK: Gee, somebody must've, but I don't remember that.

MN: How did you prepare to go into camp?

AK: I was still gardening, so I just worked either half a day or nighttime, and that's how I was able to feed the rest of my family.

MN: Now, you have to go into camp, what did you do with your plants?

AK: I don't know what happened to it. It was an empty lot next to our home. I built a little small greenhouse. Didn't even ask the owner, but I built it anyway. [Laughs] Then I probably just left it there.

MN: What did you do with your car?

AK: I was gardening and there was a, gee, what nationality was he? [To KK] Do you remember?

KK: When you were living at Mr. Tanos's house?

AK: Tanos, yeah, Tanos. She understood my predicament 'cause she went through that other war, so she let me keep my car in her garage, and it was there all the time, three years or so.

TI: Martha, can we repeat that because of the plane?

MN: Okay. I'm gonna ask you that question again, 'cause the airplane was too loud. So what did you do with your car?

AK: Well, there was one family that was willing to take care of it in the garage. And they kept it real nice, and when I got out and started the car I didn't have to do anything. The car started, and get, start working again.

MN: So when you came back the car was still there.

AK: Yeah.

MN: What did you do with all your mother's musical instruments, like the koto and the shamisen?

AK: We, the Japanese school, they said that they'll take care of it. So shamisen and things like that were stored over there. It was still there when we got back.

MN: It was still there when you got back? It didn't get stolen?

AK: No, not mine.

KK: No, you got it stolen.

AK: What?

KK: The shamisen and everything. Yeah. It wasn't there, you said.

AK: Maybe the one... you sure?

KK: You didn't find your shamisen.

AK: Oh, yeah, that's right. Some other, some other Japanese family who got out before me, I think they got it, and I don't know whether I got it back or not. I don't remember that. They were able to leave early. Everybody didn't go out at the same time.

MN: Okay.

<Begin Segment 9>

MN: Let me ask you about Manzanar now. Do you remember what month or day you went into Manzanar? [AK shakes head] Do you remember where you gathered to go into Manzanar, or how you got to Manzanar?

AK: All I remember is getting on a bus, a great big bus.

MN: Was it like a Greyhound bus?

AK: No. I can't remember.

MN: How many buses were there?

AK: I don't know what, only they picked us up at all different places, and I don't know how many buses.

MN: Maybe five, ten?

AK: No, not that much. Two or three, I guess, about two or three.

MN: Did these buses have bathrooms?

AK: I don't know.

MN: Did they make a pit stop somewhere?

AK: Yeah, they did.

MN: Do you think it was at Little Lake?

AK: Gee, I don't know. I don't remember that.

MN: So when you got to Manzanar, what was your first impression of Manzanar?

AK: I don't remember if I went fishing over there before.

MN: [Laughs] Not yet, not yet. When you first walked into Manzanar, what did you think?

AK: What did I what, did I think?

MN: Yeah, what did you think of Manzanar when you first walked in there?

AK: I didn't know what to expect. I just hoped, I just made sure that our family stuck together, they weren't scattered. That's about all I worried about.

MN: Which block did you first live in?

AK: First it was way down Block 6, I think, and then when they finished the hospital it was way up in, up on the end of camp, so I went applied and I got the job at the hospital, so I was able to move to Block 29. That was right next to the hospital.

MN: Now, when you first moved in and you're living in block six, how bad were the sandstorms?

AK: It was pretty bad. Yeah, every time the wind, we had to close the window every night. Even then... at that time the barracks was still new. When they built it there was raw redwood, and during the heat that thing shrunk and there were spaces all over, so we had to block that with something so that we won't get the dust in the house.

MN: So how long was it like that before they put tarpaper on it?

AK: It was only about a year. They had it started in one corner and it took about a year before they got to our barrack. We, Block 29 was way in the opposite corner of our administration building, I think. They finished administration building, they came around, and I don't remember how we had to wait, though.

MN: So when you were still in Block 6, did you get tarpaper at all?

AK: The Block 6 was alright. They it all fixed. They were still building others.

MN: How long did you live there before you moved to Block 29?

AK: That, I don't know. Not very long, maybe a month or so.

MN: Now, Block 29 is right across from the Children's Village.

AK: Yes, right across.

MN: Did you have any interaction with the orphanage?

AK: No. Our door -- barrack is this long and the two, two ends is one door, and the two doors in the middle -- but I was right at the end facing that orphanage, so we got on pretty good. We made some friends.

MN: Your wife was sharing that your sister Tillie was over there quite a lot.

AK: Yeah, she had a friend in there, best pal was an orphan. They were always together.

MN: Now, you know when you went into Manzanar, did you take any seeds with you?

AK: I don't think so. I don't know, I didn't know if we could plant anything, if there was a farm. But they may, after we got settled, then I had a friend, we used to correspond and I asked him to send us some seeds. And she did, and then I planted it and then, inside of the barrack. Some people keep stealing it, so I had to build a fence. There were a lot of dead trees that they chopped off, so a lot of branches, and I made a fence so they can't get in there.

<Begin Segment 10>

MN: So did you bring seeds into Manzanar?

AK: No. I, we didn't know what it's gonna be like. We thought it might be just like a jailhouse in L.A., just barred, no yard or anything. When I found out that there's a little area between the barracks, so I ordered some seeds or I had some seeds sent, and nobody said anything so I just kept on going.

MN: Didn't you have any rabbit problems?

AK: We did, but then, and then so many people, they didn't come around, but at night time you never can tell. Anyway, I built a fence, not for the rabbit but the other people, 'cause I didn't want them to steal my vegetables. [Laughs] So I built a fence so that nothing could get in there.

MN: What kind of vegetables were you growing?

AK: Easy stuff like carrots and tomatoes and, I don't know, whatever would grow. Some of 'em, some of the vegetables didn't grow 'cause it's too hot. I tried everything. Whatever survived, I kept on growing it.

MN: Did people have any problems with you growing a garden?

AK: No.

MN: Now, Manzanar had a riot in December 1942. Do you remember that?

AK: Yeah.

MN: Where were you?

AK: Well, I was, I was way... gee, I forgot what block it was we were in. I just remember it was cold, 'cause I remember I was wearing an overcoat, and then I just wound up following where they, going where they're, what they were doing. I didn't do anything. I just want to observe what they're doing. And everybody was angry, but I didn't participate in destroying anything.

[Interruption]

MN: So I want to ask you, in 1943 the government issued the "loyalty questionnaire," was that an issue with you?

AK: Well, I didn't, it was "yes" or "no," and "yes" was if, defend, if we were invaded, would... and no, I put "no" for volunteering. That's about all I remember.

MN: Now, since you are not "yes-yes," did the administration ever come and question you?

AK: No. Well, in the questionnaire and everything, it asked all kinds of questions, and I wrote down that I'm supporting four sisters, so maybe that... the younger sisters, so they didn't bother me.

MN: Yeah, you wouldn't be eligible for the draft anyways. You were head of the household. You were sharing about how you got arrested at Manzanar. What did you do?

AK: Well, there was a truck that'd come into camp, and a lot of the "no-no" people -- you know the "no-no" people -- they put them on the truck and took 'em to the railroad station. And I went with 'em and when the truck was empty, I was the only one left on the truck, so they put me in jail, I don't know how many days.

MN: So you didn't have a permit to go out with the truck?

AK: No.

MN: So when you came back, what did they tell you?

AK: They told me that I wasn't supposed to go, and I think I stayed in jail about three days or so, I don't remember. They let me out.

MN: Did you have visitors? Did people visit you at the jail?

AK: Yeah. No, they can't come in, but there was a little door. They'd all come and harass me, the ones that knew that I was in there. [Laughs]

MN: Now, your sister Mary Kageyama, she did a lot of singing in camp. Did you ever go see her perform?

AK: Yeah.

MN: Where did you, where did you go and see her perform at?

AK: Everybody was invited to go, at the, and they had one auditorium. Later on they built a nice big one, but at the beginning it was a small -- it was small, wasn't it? Yeah, later they built a nice big one.

MN: I guess that's the interpretive center today.

<Begin Segment 11>

MN: Now, on your free time, did you, were you able to pick up a hobby?

AK: Well, I'd sneak out to go fishing.

MN: Share about that story. How, where did you go sneak out of camp, from where?

AK: We waited 'til it was dark, before the sun came up. And then there wasn't any, easy to, there was a searchlight going this way, we'd just go underneath the light and they can't see. So after we got so many, a hundred fifty feet or so, we'd start running, in case they saw me and they were coming after me. [Laughs] You know, part of that, I used to take care of their garden, I wrote to them, and I think they're the one that sent me the fish hooks and line and things like that. So I used to sneak out and catch some fish, and wait 'til dark to come in again. I got caught once and I think I spent about three days in jail, and everybody in camp heard about it. They'd come to the window and laugh at me.

MN: But you got caught sneaking back in, fishing, also?

AK: Yeah.

[Interruption]

MN: Can you share about the time you caught, you caught like a hundred trout?

AK: Yeah. I don't think, I don't know how many, but I got a lot of trouts and I shared it with our neighbor. They were all small, not big.

MN: Did you take it into the mess hall?

AK: No. They just cooked it in their own place.

MN: How were you able to bring so much trout back to camp?

AK: They were small trout, so I guess... I don't know if there was any limit of size, but the fish that I got, I brought it back in. Had a feast.

MN: Now, how were you able to catch so many?

AK: Well gee, nobody else is fishing, and people -- there's Lone Pine and Independence, we were right in between -- they used to go fishing in the stream, but they were afraid of us and none of 'em came. So we got to fish wherever we want to.

MN: So when you caught a lot of this trout this one time, did you block up the river?

AK: No. I just blocked it a little bit so that, here and there. There wasn't that many fish, so if they were any swimming, there's a big rock there, well, I put another rock there so that the fish could hide in there. When they get in the middle, I just grab it.

MN: So the next day, did a lot of other people try to go out and catch that many fish?

AK: Yeah, I don't know when, but some of the others tried, but not very many. They were scared to go out there.

MN: Who did you usually go out to fish with?

AK: Fellow named Ken Miyamoto.

<Begin Segment 12>

MN: I want to ask you, before we get into the guayule project, I want to ask you about how you met your future wife, Keiko.

AK: Well, I was in the front end of the barrack, and there were four rooms and she was in the opposite. And we used to see each other. We'd all go, lunchtime, everybody'd go at the same time. I don't know how we got, I got to know her. Then I start, I guess I started dating, huh? Yeah, whenever there was a dance, I didn't know any other girl, so...

MN: So you asked her to go dancing. What other things do young couples do in camp?

AK: Most of the youngsters, they'd all have baseball, softball in between the barracks or wherever there's a big empty space, they'd play baseball there. And older people...

MN: Well, you didn't play baseball with your, softball with Keiko.

AK: No.

MN: You played tennis with her.

AK: Was it tennis? Tennis. Yeah, there was a court there.

KK: Played tennis a few times. Not good at it, but... [Laughs]

AK: We'd always meet when we would go to the mess hall. We'd go up there about the same time. And then they had that, they had a party, big dance party or something. Then I asked her, and that's how I got acquainted with her.

MN: Did you go to the movies together?

KK: Yeah, a few times.

AK: Few times, yeah.

MN: How about like, do young couples go to Merritt Park for privacy?

AK: Merritt Park or, there wasn't very many private places, Merritt Park, was there? I don't know about that.

KK: It's so long ago. [Laughs]

MN: Now, you also went out on a work furlough. Where did you go, and what did you do?

AK: Mostly the farmers in Idaho and Montana, they needed help to harvest the crops, mostly sugar beets. They, I don't know who arranged it, but we, whoever wants to go, we'd go there for, I don't know how long we stayed there, but anyway, I volunteered to go. Wherever, any chance I get to go, I didn't know what it was.

MN: Your wife mentioned that you remember having Jamaicans working?

AK: Yeah, they had the Jamaicans come in and harvest that. That was the sugar beets, wasn't it? Was it sugar beets that they came helped? Yeah.

MN: That was hard work.

AK: Yeah, it was, if they let it get big. Some of 'em get that big and you have to chop the head and throw it up into the truck.

MN: And you got paid by the tonnage?

AK: I don't know if we got paid or not. [Laughs]

MN: You did get paid, because I was gonna ask you, what did you buy with the money you saved when you went out sugar beet topping?

AK: Mostly for my, I had my sisters, and whatever we can't get in camp. Yeah, we met, she was in, I was in one end of the barrack and she was the other end. And at the dance, we knew each other, so we'd go to the dances together.

MN: How did you buy your wife a wedding ring?

AK: I think I just went out, I used to work for a couple Syrians, from Syria, and he, they were really...

MN: This was before the war, right?

KK: Do you remember? You bought this ring, you had Fumi buy it for you?

AK: Was it Fumi?

KK: Yeah.

AK: Maybe I sent the money.

KK: [Laughs] You gave her the money to buy the ring.

AK: I don't know how I got, where I got it.

MN: Did you forget?

AK: I can't remember where I bought it, so it must be that ring. [Laughs]

MN: It's okay. It's okay, it's alright. You don't remember going sugar beet topping and saving the money, and then sending it to your sister in Chicago?

AK: That's what I did. Yeah, I forgot how much an hour we got, but boy, we sure had to work hard. If we go to a poor farmer that didn't take care of the plant to fertilize the right way, the beets were smaller. But when we went to a rich farmer who, they could spend money fertilizing, that was heavy, get tired. The truck is, well, it'd have a side, not as high as the ceiling, but we used to throw it over that fence, I mean a, whatever. What was I thinking of? Boy, that was hard sometimes. When you go to Idaho, they seem like they're better farmers, because beets were that big, and boy, you get tired throwing that up on the truck.

MN: But you get more money that way, right?

AK: I don't know if we got more money. I forgot how they paid us.

MN: But you saved your money up.

AK: Yeah.

MN: Do you remember how much the ring cost?

AK: No, I had my, I saved the money and sent, my sister was in Chicago, I think, so I sent the money to Chicago to have her get it for me.

MN: It's a real diamond, I think. It must've been very expensive. Did your sister pick out the wedding ring?

AK: Yeah. Didn't she? She picked it up. She couldn't go over there and see it anyways, so... I think she, my sister just thought that was the right size and, I don't know how it happened. But she got it for me, anyway.

MN: Do you remember how you proposed to Keiko?

AK: I don't remember. I was in a daze, I guess. [Laughs]

MN: You were nervous?

AK: Yeah. I was scared to ask.

<Begin Segment 13>

MN: Okay, I'm gonna get into the project that you are most known for, the guayule project. Was this the first job and the only job you had at Manzanar?

AK: Yeah, I can't think of anything else. They were asking for police, and I didn't want to do that. I found out that somebody wants something to go, I don't know what it was, but I liked to grow things, so when I found out somebody wants, needs somebody to help plant, start and plant those plants, I volunteered right away.

MN: So when you started with the, was the lathe house completed?

AK: Part of it, I think part of it was. But towards the end there it was all blocked out. When we had a strike they had it locked up. I was the only one that had the key to open, water it.

MN: There was a strike?

AK: Uh-huh.

MN: Was it a camp-wide strike?

AK: Yeah. Wasn't it? Everybody, or was it just a guayule strike?

MN: I think the camouflage net people had a strike.

AK: Yeah, maybe about the same time.

KK: I don't know about a strike.

MN: Let me ask you, then, what was your responsibility on the guayule project?

AK: How to start it, germinate it, and grow it big, long enough so they could transplant it. And somebody else took charge of that, transplanting it out there, but my job was to start it. At first nobody could, they had a hard time germinating the seed. They tried and tried, and it won't sprout. Then, I don't know if Dr. Emerson told me or I read someplace, where you could soak it in Purex, so I just got the cheesecloth and put a bunch of seeds in there and soak it in for about four or five hours. Then when it was dry enough I'd plant it, and they all came up. So that's the only thing... something that you just can't start that thing any time. And I've heard later on that you have to, after you harvest the seed you have to wait about a month or so before you could plant it, 'cause it won't germinate. I didn't know that. Soon as I got the seed I started, and nothing happened.

MN: So you had this success rate with the seeds. How about like the cuttings?

AK: Yeah, cuttings was easy, but there wasn't enough plants to make a lot of cuttings.

MN: Now, once you planted it though, weren't you having problems with, like, the animals eating?

AK: Yeah, rabbits. We had, real close to the camp, and we complained, so our project head got a greyhound dog to chase the rabbits away. So then the rabbits just got, never came around anymore. That was a good thing. Otherwise, every time we planted the seed, it's a little stub, all the leaves are all gone, all eaten up.

MN: Now, this guayule project, what was the goal of this project?

AK: At that time there was a rubber shortage and they couldn't get any rubber from anyplace across the sea, and the only place that rubber used to come from is in... where is that place, rubber plant?

GK: Southeast Asia? The hevea rubber or guayule?

AK: Guayule.

GK: Salinas?

AK: No, the plant. Found that the, it grew guayule there, so we plant that guayule in the, in camp, and heck, the rabbits just came and ate it up soon as I, you'd go there next day and there isn't any more plant. They ate it up. So we had to have somebody else grow it. We were out of camp, and then later on the project manager got some greyhound dogs, and they, as soon as the rabbits come they used to chase 'em away. So after that, we didn't have to make any fence or anything. The dogs kept the rabbits away.

MN: How many guayule plants do you think you propagated?

AK: I don't know, hundreds. They don't get too big, not like, not like the trees. It's a bush about that big and about a foot and a half apart.

MN: How do you identify each little shrub? Did you give them names or numbers?

AK: No, the same, it's all the same. Got the seeds from Salinas and I germinated it.

MN: Did all the bushes give out the same amount of rubber?

AK: This one, it did, 'cause it was already, somebody already tried it, all kinds of different variety of it, and they just picked out the one that'll seed. And some of 'em just, flower comes and no seeds, but they found a plant that'll have seeds and that plant, and that plant had a lot of rubber in it. That's where they started germinating, growing it.

MN: So if you found a plant that gave out a lot of rubber, what did you do with that plant?

AK: How we, how we what, watched the rubber, or just how, you mean how we produced the rubber out of it? We just grow so high and dig it up and cut the small leaf off -- there's no rubber in the small leaf -- there'd be rubber in the, size of a pencil, but it's, anything smaller than that, there's no rubber. So we just cut all the small ones off and then dried it, and then we ground it up, and that's how we used to get it. We had some pretty smart nurserymen there, and they knew what to do. I didn't know what to do. I just, all I knew is grow them. Then we were able to produce a lot of good rubber. We had tests, and the rubber produced, we, in Manzanar, was a lot better than the rubber, tree rubber.

MN: How did you find that out?

AK: Well, they sent a sample out, there was a Dr. Robert Emerson, he's the one that's helping us, all the ones that, in the camp that, they don't, has to be stir crazy. We had something to do, so we all, a lot of 'em were gardeners and nurserymen, so they were happy to do that. And we raised enough, and they shipped it out, and that's how they got the rubber. They sent it to certain, certain, I don't know if it's a factory or not, but they knew where to send it. Then they were able to produce a lot of rubber that way.

MN: So let's see, you talk about the nurserymen, so what did the nurserymen, exactly, do?

AK: Well, they had nothing much to do except... you know, we don't need too many people to raise the guayule, and I guess most of them were pretty good. They didn't want to work anyways, so a lot of 'em were just playing Japanese go and didn't do anything. [Laughs] But some of 'em were interested, so they helped us take care, and we were able to produce a lot of rubber that way.

MN: So the nurserymen took care of the bushes that you propagated?

AK: Yeah. We propagated 'em, and I had a bunch of fellows that helped plant it too. After that, they can't be watching, guarding the plants from the rabbits, so they asked the, I guess, I don't know who asked, but they asked somebody if they know how to protect the plants. They said, "Oh yeah, there's a lot of farmers. They know how to..." plant kind of a barrier, and then we tried that and still, they could jump over the thing. So Dr. Emerson -- Emerson was the one that was helping us -- he thought of a greyhound dog, and he borrowed, he rented or borrowed a greyhound. And then whenever the rabbits came around, he just let the greyhound loose, and he'd just chase 'em out and that's that. We didn't have any problems.

MN: Can you share with us who Shimpei Nishimura was?

AK: Yeah, I don't know what... who was he? I think he was a pretty brilliant man. His head was that big, all brains.

MN: What was his personality like?

AK: Hmm?

MN: What was his personality like?

AK: He's nice, fine. Yeah, he was real nice. We got along real good.

MN: Now, Keiko's father also worked on the guayule project.

AK: Yes, he did. A lot of the old people that used to have farms, they know how to take care of things.

MN: Did you know her father -- and I guess your brother also worked on the project -- did you know them before you met Keiko?

AK: No, I met Keiko first, I think. And then her brother (Tsutomu) really came on late, later.

MN: How closely did you work with her father and brother?

AK: All I did was propagate it and raise the plants. When it's old enough, they do the rest. They just dug it up and planted it. I didn't do any planting.

MN: So they took care of it once you got it going.

AK: Once the vine was ripe enough for them to have the rubber in the system.

<Begin Segment 14>

MN: Now, there is this hakujin professor working on (Dr.) Kodani's biography. What was (Dr.) Kodani like?

AK: He was a regular Kibei. He was really a fine guy, Dr. Kodani and Shimpei Nishimura and a few others that used to have a nursery, and they know how to grow things. We had them grow it.

MN: How did you feel when (Dr.) Kodani answered "no-no" on the "loyalty questionnaire" and was shipped to Tule Lake?

AK: Yeah, I don't know if they brought him back or not. I don't, I think Dr. Emerson probably talked them into letting him come back and work on the guayule. I'm not sure. But I, he was with us all, most of the time.

MN: Now, why don't we use the guayule rubber today?

AK: It takes too much work, and tree rubber, getting rubber from a tree is faster. So they were, see, the tree rubber is slowly dying off. And I don't know where, what part of the country, where was it? Do you know?

GK: Where? Southeast Asia.

AK: Yeah, Southeast Asia. Slowly dying off, the trees are dying off. So they had, they have to have everything ready, so they had us work on it to see if we could produce a plant that would produce a lot of rubber. A lot of, you could plant the seed in a different way and some of 'em doesn't have any. So we tried this and that, and then all the plants that produced seeds, we just kept that and then crossed that with another one, then that's how we were able to have rubber. Otherwise, waste of time 'cause more than half of the guayule shrubs didn't have any rubber.

MN: So you're saying, with the disease going on with the rubber tree, this is like an emergency?

AK: Mostly yeah, it's an emergency. They need, they needed rubber pretty badly. They got to have it, so all their interest came to guayule.

MN: Now, you have guayule bushes in your backyard right now. Why was it important for you to bring these cuttings with you?

AK: What do you mean?

MN: You brought it from Manzanar, right?

AK: Yeah.

MN: You carried it from one house to another. Why was it important for you to carry the, to have the guayule with you all the time?

AK: I love that plant. [Laughs] Yeah, that's all I did in Manzanar, was work raising that thing, then at that time they didn't need any rubber. They were getting plenty of rubber from the bush. But then, lately, well, the rubber plant is slowly dying off here and there, and so I said, "We better have some other plant to produce rubber ready." 'Cause they could get, grow the, plant the tree rubber, but then that takes a lot of space and nobody wants... just for the rubber. And so in Manzanar we tried, we got some seeds from -- actually, Dr. Emerson got some seeds from some place, Salinas I think it was -- and we planted some in our, between the firebreaks. And it was alright until the rabbits thought to come and eat it up before we get it. So Dr. Emerson got some greyhounds, and that chased the rubber, the rabbits away, and so we were able to have rubber for experimenting on.

MN: Is there anything else about the guayule project at Manzanar that you want to share with us?

AK: No, I can't think of anything.

<Begin Segment 15>

GK: Okay, Dad, would you like to share what, some of the products made from Manzanar guayule rubber? I'll just hand some of these to you.

AK: I guess it's been over ten years, huh?

GK: This was made, look at, look at the date on there. This was made after the war.

AK: After the war, I see. Feel the rubber. Still good.

TI: Go ahead and, can you actually hold it up for the camera?

GK: Yeah, so hold it up to the camera and just show how, how strong it... And this was made in what year? Okay, this sample was made in March of 1966, so this was after Manzanar, but guayule rubber was still being used to make rubber. This is a, what is this device? What is this device?

AK: This is an udder, udder... for the cow.

GK: So it's hooked up to a milking machine. And the quality of this rubber is also still very good.

AK: Yeah, it's very... forty or fifty years and still...

GK: Yeah, doesn't show any cracking or any sign of aging. Then this is a product that was made in Manzanar [hands it to AK].

TI: Can you hold it up?

AK: This stopper?

GK: This sink stopper.

AK: Sink stopper.

GK: See? No cracking, still --

AK: Still firm.

GK: And this is another product made by the Rose Tire Company in Los Angeles [hands it to AK], but this is made from guayule rubber at Manzanar.

AK: Still no cracks, still firm.

GK: One of the important points to be made is that, if they wanted to make high quality rubber that lasted, they could do it.

KK: Yeah, they could if they wanted to.

GK: If they, if a company wanted to make high quality rubber, if they wanted to make tires that lasted longer, they could do it.

KK: Yes.

GK: The problem, the problem is companies make more money if they make things that don't last so long. It's one of the unfortunate things, the concept of built in obsolescence is, really prevails over the quality that is achievable. And that applies to just about every single product, and the downside of all that is that we end up with tire pollution, and everything that, all of our, most of our solid waste pollution is a result of built-in obsolescence. We make things that only last a short time, and then we can't get rid of it. We have plastic islands floating in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. So, anyway.

MN: Were you able to get that it was made in Manzanar?

TI: Would you hold it up again for a bit?

MN: Could you hold this? 'Cause it says "made in Manzanar."

GK: This one was made in Manzanar, so this one is, let's see...

KK: Sixty-something.

GK: Yeah, over sixty years, almost seventy years old.

KK: Yeah, almost seventy years old.

GK: I don't know if you can read that.

TI: A little hard to read.

MN: Alright. Okay. Thank you.

AK: Rubber nowadays, it cracks.

GK: Yeah.

MN: Yeah, I know.

AK: And this one doesn't. So nice, firm.

GK: Now, one of the reasons why it's still in good condition is because I keep it in plastic, enclosed in plastic, okay, so it doesn't get oxidized as quickly, or it doesn't get exposed to sunlight. It's sunlight that causes a lot of the wear and tear on rubber, so this would actually get, this would be affected by sunlight as well.

MN: So it has nothing to do with the fiber content?

GK: No, it does. This, the low fiber content of the guayule rubber made in Manzanar is what gives it its tensile strength and why it lasts so much longer. Remember space shuttle had a sealant problem? It's possible that if they made the seals out of Manzanar rubber, then they would've withstood the freezing. It wouldn't have been, they wouldn't have, we wouldn't have had a space shuttle disaster. But that's just my opinion.

MN: A possibility, yeah.

<Begin Segment 16>

MN: And in 1944, Dr. Emerson got you a special permission to go out of Manzanar. How did you feel about going out by yourself?

AK: No difference.

MN: Were you not afraid for your safety?

AK: Uh-uh.

MN: Were you the first Japanese American to return to Los Angeles?

AK: That's what they said. [Laughs]

KK: No, there was another girl.

AK: Oh yeah, there was a girl, a student at...

KK: What was her name?

AK: I forgot.

KK: I forgot what her name is.

MN: I know who you're talking about... Esther?

KK: Yeah.

MN: I can't remember her last name. Nishio? Nishio?

AK: Esther Takeo.

KK: Esther...

AK: Takei...

KK: Takei, Takei I think, or something like that.

MN: She had a rough time, I think.

KK: Yeah.

MN: But your experience coming out, did people in Pasadena harass you?

AK: Uh-uh.

KK: Not around his neighborhood. They're mostly educated people.

MN: So once you left Manzanar, where did you live?

KK: With Dr. Emerson. He forgot. [Laughs]

MN: Did you live with --

AK: You mean permanent?

MN: No, when you first left Manzanar, who did you live with?

AK: Dr. Emerson's home.

MN: And then what did you do at Cal Tech?

AK: I did, went out in the field and plant the seeds and started the seeds, and I planted out there. And in the meantime, Dr. Emerson got some shrubs from Salinas and I was experimenting with it.

MN: So did you only work with the guayule plants?

AK: Uh-huh.

MN: Now, when you were working at Cal Tech and living with Dr. Emerson, did you continue to communicate with Keiko?

AK: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 17>

MN: Going back with you after the war, I mean, you're at Cal Tech right now, when you were there, did you get a chance to visit Japantown?

AK: Visit what?

MN: Japantown? Little Tokyo?

AK: Yeah... no, I didn't have, until she came.

MN: Okay, so that was afterwards.

AK: Afterwards.

MN: What was, what did it look like?

AK: You know, nobody harassed me, or they didn't say anything. I was on a crowded bus and I was the only one in there. They didn't say anything. They don't know whether I was Chinese or what, maybe.

MN: This is when you first came out?

AK: Yeah.

MN: Now, when you found out that Keiko was gonna come out of Manzanar, were you still living with Dr. Emerson?

AK: Were we? Yeah.

MN: So then you had to find a place to live after that, right? Now, you --

AK: Before she came, I already had, already had a place.

KK: Yeah, on Mary Street.

AK: Yeah, Mary Street, before she came.

MN: So you were able to find a place before she came out. Now, your wife, she talked about getting married at Mrs. Porter's place, now, do you remember what you wore on your wedding day?

AK: I don't know. It wasn't no tuxedo. [Laughs]

MN: Did you buy a new suit?

AK: No, I don't think so.

KK: I guess you did.

AK: I did?

KK: [Laughs] I guess you did.

AK: I don't remember.

MN: But it wasn't a tuxedo. You probably got a new suit.

KK: No, just a regular suit.

MN: New suit.

KK: Dark suit.

MN: When you got married, were you already thinking about quitting Cal Tech?

AK: No.

KK: Not then. [Laughs]

MN: When did you start thinking about going back into gardening?

KK: Soon after.

AK: Yeah, right after, soon as, after some of the people that I worked for, they all, they were all waiting for me and they wanted me to hurry up and come. There were several places where I went back to work, same place.

MN: So your customers from before the war?

AK: Before the war, uh-huh.

MN: Was it hard to get equipment after the war, gardening equipment?

AK: No, it wasn't that hard.

MN: How did you get new customers?

AK: I put an ad in the paper. They needed somebody that knew something about plants. I guess the people that worked, they didn't know anything about planting, so they got rid of 'em.

<Begin Segment 18>

MN: Now, while you were in Manzanar you snuck out to go fishing a lot. After you came out of camp, did you go back to the Manzanar area to go fishing?

AK: Sure, a lot of times.

MN: What was that like to go back and the camp is all empty?

KK: We just said hello and goodbye and went by.

AK: Yeah.

KK: There wasn't any, anything there. I mean, that big storage place...

AK: Big auditorium.

KK: But that was it.

MN: So you went with him.

KK: Of course

AK: I'd go fishing, she'd always go with me.

KK: We were married already, so every time we went fishing, we'll all pack up and went together.

[Interruption]

MN: What was the, what was it like to go by the camp and there's nothing there?

KK: Nostalgic, but then we didn't miss it. [Laughs] We know it's there.

MN: Anything you want to add to that?

AK: People are, there's a lot of Caucasian people fishing too, and they didn't say anything, didn't bother me. That's what I, most of the people were afraid. But then I went anyway, and they didn't say anything.

MN: How do you two feel about your son's interest in the guayule project?

KK: I think it's wonderful that somebody took an interest in it. Yeah. You gonna say something? [Laughs]

AK: Yeah, I'm just glad he's here to help me out. He'll, he remembers more, more things than I would.

MN: How do you two feel about how the Manzanar campsite is developing right now?

KK: I think it's nice, yeah. And I think it's nice they have the pilgrimage every year. Can't go anymore. It's too much of a hassle. He wanted to go.

AK: Yeah, I like to go there, reminisce and go fishing back there.

KK: But he'd rather go fishing. [Laughs]

MN: Well, you know your sister sings almost every year now at Manzanar pilgrimage?

KK: Yeah.

MN: Have you been able to go to any of the early pilgrimages that she sang at?

KK: Yeah.

AK: It was probably later on.

KK: We went to a few of 'em.

MN: How does it feel to have a celebrity in your family?

AK: I don't know.

KK: [Laughs] I think it's nice.

AK: Yeah, I'm proud of her.

KK: Everybody knows Manzanar, when it comes to Manzanar.

MN: Anything else you two want to add?

AK: No.

KK: You want to add something?

AK: No, not -- well, I still enjoy going there fishing to remind me of the time we had in camp, and that's why I go there. Almost every time, every time I go up north, I try fishing over there in Manzanar.

KK: Yeah, he, every time we go towards Bishop he wants to go fishing. He's not interested in going back to Manzanar. [Laughs]

MN: Just fishing.

AK: And that auditorium is still there.

KK: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 19>

MN: Do you, let's talk about your -- we're gonna ask the same questions again -- do you folks remember, do you remember how Akira proposed to you?

KK: No. [Laughs] That's one question I can't, I've forgotten.

MN: Was it in the barracks? In the mess hall? Outside?

KK: Where did you propose? I don't remember.

AK: We went to the dance quite a bit. I don't know, maybe... yeah, I don't remember, I don't remember when I proposed to her.

MN: Do you remember what you said to her?

AK: Same old thing, "Will you marry me?" [Laughs] We were going pretty steady then.

MN: So you were confident that Keiko would say yes?

AK: Yeah.

MN: Were you expecting a marriage proposal?

KK: Well, yes. [Laughs]

MN: So how did you feel when he popped the question?

AK: "It's about time." No? [Laughs]

MN: Were you surprised that he was, he got you a ring?

KK: Yeah, I was surprised.

AK: I had my sister, she was in Chicago, I had her get it for me.

KK: That's why I was surprised he had a ring.

MN: I don't think people could afford a diamond ring at that time.

KK: Yeah.

MN: So when you asked you, when he proposed to you, what did you say to him?

KK: What did I say? [Laughs]

AK: I don't know.

KK: He doesn't remember and neither do I.

AK: I was in a kind of a daze, I guess. [Laughs]

MN: So after he proposed to you, did you immediately go talk to your parents?

KK: Gee, I don't know when we talked to our parents, my parents. I guess we both went and talked to them. They kind of knew, anyway.

MN: And then when did you start talking about wedding arrangements?

KK: I have no idea.

AK: Yeah, I can't remember whether we got married in camp or outside, or...

KK: Can't remember that far back.

MN: Because you could've gotten married in camp.

KK: No, we didn't get married in camp.

MN: Did you not want to get married in camp? [KK shakes head] Why not?

KK: Lot of things.

MN: You preferred outside. So once he asked you the question, is that when you started to think about a wedding gown?

KK: Were you gonna say anything?

AK: No. I was, I forgot.

MN: Who was your maid of honor?

KK: My sister.

MN: Who as your best man?

AK: Gee, who was it?

KK: Shimpei?

AK: Shimpei?

KK: Shimpei.

AK: Shimpei Nishimura.

KK: Hey, we were really surprised he said he said yes, 'cause he's a loner. He doesn't like to go out. And so when he asked him and he said yes, I thought, I nearly fell over. [Laughs] Because he's not a person to say yes to anything, you know?

MN: That speaks to how much respect Shimpei had for your husband.

KK: Yeah, I think so. I think so.

<Begin Segment 20>

MN: And you shared this earlier, but I'm gonna ask you again, who officiated at your wedding?

KK: Dr. --

AK: Reverend.

KK: Reverend Nicholson.

AK: Nicholson.

KK: He used to come into Manzanar camp every now and then.

AK: Yeah, we asked, he was really, whatever we wanted, we asked him and the next time he'll bring it for me.

KK: Yeah, Reverend Nicholson and Dr. Emerson were two of the nicest person you can find on this earth. They were both Quakers. I think Reverend Nicholson was a Quaker too. But I had never heard of a Quaker until, during the war. They were such nice people, and they helped a lot of people, not just us but other people too.

MN: Did your sister Mary sing at your wedding?

KK: Yeah.

AK: Did she?

KK: You don't remember?

AK: I was in a daze, I guess.

KK: [Laughs] He was in a daze.

AK: Yeah.

MN: Do you remember what Mary sang?

KK: What did she sing? "Ave Maria."

AK: "Ave Maria."

MN: Anything else about your wedding that you remember, that you would like to share with us?

KK: I don't know I got through it. [Laughs] It was like I was in a daze.

MN: Were you nervous?

KK: Huh?

MN: Were you nervous?

KK: Yeah. I was nervous. And I haven't been to too many weddings.

AK: Well, even if, even if her parents are opposed, I didn't care. I'll marry her anyway. [Laughs]

MN: Well, it's a good thing her parents didn't oppose it. Were your parents able to come to the wedding?

AK: Yeah. They lived right next to, almost a block away from where the Quakers had their home, right down the street. And our, my, our future home was right, two doors away on the corner, so it was easy.

MN: Want to add anything else? [To GK] Want to ask your parents something?

GK: Yeah, where, did you have your wedding at the Porters' house? Was it at the Porters' house?

AK: Yeah.

GK: Mr. and Mrs. Porter, were they, are they Quakers, or were they?

KK: No, the Porters are not Quakers.

GK: Okay, I was just, I didn't know.

KK: But she knew a lot of Quaker people, 'cause she knew the Emersons, she knew Nicholson well. But they weren't Quakers. Mr. Porter was a lawyer, an established lawyer, and so was his son, who became mayor of South Pasadena later on.

MN: I think the, the painting behind is done by Mrs. Porter's sister?

KK: Yeah, that's one of the paintings that I inherited from her. I have no place to hang it, so I just don't hang it. [Laughs] I think I had it over there [Points] and somebody took it down.

MN: Anything else you want to add?

KK: No.

AK: I can't think of anything else.

MN: Thank you very much.

KK: You're welcome.

<Begin Segment 21>

[Tour of greenhouse]