<Begin Segment 25>

SF: When you went back to the Great Northern originally...

TS: Yeah.

SF: ...and you faced this discrimination because that's just the way the system was...

TS: Yeah.

SF: ...at that time, what was your attitude towards where -- when you knew that you were qualified for the job, but people were putting these roadblocks in front of you?

TS: Well, it was disappointing. But then, based on the situation at the time, there is nothing much you could

do. So you just accept it and did the best you can. And hopefully, as time goes, you got, things got better. And by God, they did get better.

SF: That sort of strategy of, of sort of bucking up under it and -- but then thinking about the long-term, was what a lot of Niseis probably did...

TS: Yeah.

SF: ...under the circumstances, right? Do you think in retrospect that that was the best strategy? I mean, did that work out the best for most people, or...?

TS: Well, for the time it was. Today, you'd what? You'd sue the company for a million dollars or something? I don't know if I'd even wanna do that today. I'd just as soon get what -- get something -- what I'm worth Get a job that make, that I can use, that I can do and learn from. The tough part was not getting into personnel because geez, that was something I liked to do. And there's no hope. Yeah, I knew that, V.P. Holmquist, and he was, he'd never say it, but I knew he was really, really biased. What can you do? I remember going to a, the vice president's meeting in Seattle. I was still in Seattle at that time and I was working as examiner for this Bob Anderson, who was a manager of the Seattle accounting office. Well, he had some other meeting, and his assistant had to run the office, so I was sent as examiner up to (Regional Vice President, Dick Beulke's) meeting upstairs. And I sat there and he had people from every department -- there. And then at the conclusion of the meeting, he did something I've never experienced before or after, and that is, he went to each person at the table, "Is there anything else that you'd like to bring up?" And went down, ten people on that side, and came up this side and came up to me. I don't know what made me do it, but I stood up and I says, "And one of things that we mentioned at beginning is -- on personnel, that the Burlington Northern is doing their best, is doing this thing about women and minorities into positions." And I said, "Here we got the top people of this area here, and I don't see -- there isn't one woman -- and the only minority is -- I am. I'm here because my boss can't make it and his assistant can't make it, so I'm here."

And the vice president was a guy named Beulke, and oh, he was sharp, and good mind, and gave me a real nice answer. Of course, he didn't say anything, nothing -- really what -- anyway, they closed the meeting, and then left the room and walking down the hall, this one -- McGuire, Irishman, he -- we're walking down the hall, he says, "You had no business saying what you..." I says, "What?" "Oh, that -- what you said at the end, about, about no women or minorities at the table." I said, "Was that a falsehood?" And he says, "I didn't say it was a falsehood, but you had no business saying it." I said, "Well, I didn't -- I don't think we need to discuss here in the hall." And I turned around, I said, "Let's go back and talk to Mr. Beulke." He's the V.P. you know. And he wouldn't -- he wouldn't go. He just kept walking. [Laughs]

SF: What do you...

TS: There are people that are biased there.

SF: What year did that happen?

TS: Oh, gee. That must've been, I don't know. It was after all this equal opportunity thing. But the railroad just hadn't moved up enough on it. There was one black guy back East, and I was there too; salary, but not up there.

SF: So for Japanese Americans in the Great Northern, or I guess for any minority, the -- you really didn't see much movement, positive movement, until the equal opportunity...

TS: Basically, yeah.

SF: ...civil rights kinda thing?

TS: Basically, yeah.

SF: Wow.

TS: If it wasn't for that, I don't think, like I would've moved up, either.

SF: So it's real clear, and at least in that particular situation that we, Japanese Americans, were clearly the -- were positively impacted by that...

TS: Oh, yeah.

SF: ...that whole...

TS. I think so, yeah.

SF: Yeah.

TS: And I think, especially bad, because most Japanese Americans did work hard, weren't boozers, didn't get into trouble, but yet, didn't get anywhere. It wasn't fair. But today, it's different, so that's kinda nice. Every -- you keep reading in the papers, and Japanese name here and there.

<End Segment 25> - Copyright © 1998 Densho. All Rights Reserved.