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BF: Did -- was there much -- was there any thought at that time to not, to kind of, when it started growing, "Well, let's go to the non-Japanese churches. Let's just join the mainstream Caucasian churches." Obviously, that didn't happen. What were some of the reasons why? Was it simply people feeling more comfortable being around folks that look like them and have the same experience, or were there feelings of not necessarily being entirely welcome in some of the mainstream churches?

PN: You know, denominationally, from the headquarters -- and that's all the denominations -- they, in following the good sociological resolution of all this, is to do away with the ethnic churches. You see, you have pockets of segregated churches is not going to help with the future of America. Says, "Let's all come into the established churches." So the denomination had that perspective, which was the baby of the dominant group. They can call all the shots at that time. And they opened their arms saying, "Japanese, Japanese Americans, come, become a part of the family of God in the larger church." And that was true of all the denominations. But from our own perspective of Japanese Americans, we felt that, no, we have to determine our own future. If we don't do it, nobody else will, 'cause you folks are calling all the shots and making all the decisions. Let us do what we want to do. And Dr. Mayberry felt that way. I mentioned that in the paper. He says, "No, these folks have every right to determine their own future and destiny." He says, "I'll be the last one who'll give into this whole idea of invisibility and anonymity as far as their future's concerned." He said, "I'm all for the idea that they start their own ethnic group." So that was a kind of a controversy. And it went on. Up here in Seattle, as I believe I mentioned, the Plymouth Congregational Church is gonna swallow up all the Japanese Congregationalists. And it worked for a little while. But then they -- the Japanese began to not go (and) feel more comfortable with their own little group. And so they started the Congregational church again. Some of them remained in the Congregational church downtown. And the same thing happened to Presbyterians. But they were all kind of reverted back to the ethnic churches. And so we still have the ethnic churches now, and the Japanese Baptist Church is one of them.

SF: So the larger church was pushing for this kind of larger, integrated American vision? How 'bout within the community? Did people debate this issue, or did your church membership, say -- some of the people wanted to say, "Yeah, we really should do this because that's, oh, probably be better for our future?" Or did everybody say, "No, I think we -- we're better off together in separate...? Was there an internal debate or...?

PN: Well, we, we were under authority all the time and we never made too many strong decisions -- didn't have that ego strength at that time. So most people went along with the larger policy of the denomination and of the dominant society. But I think inside -- and some insightful ethnic people, they felt, "No, that's not the way to go." But some of them did join the larger church, and some are still with them that are still living. They felt that that was the thing to do. And even in the American Baptist Church, the First Baptist Church just swallowed up some of the Japanese people that became real active in the church. It was okay. And they were doing fine. But then Emery Andrews of the Baptist church, he says, "No, Baptist community won't respond to just a few of them going over there. We have to have our own." So we started the Japanese Baptist Church.

BF: So it sounds like people let their opinions be known sort of quietly through their actions...

PN: Yeah.

BF: What -- this is sort of what I've been thinking about recently, with this discussion people have been having on the future of JA churches, or Asian American churches. I wondered, what is it that motivates or drives the ethnic communities to want to still worship among their own? I mean, it, it, I don't -- I think it's somewhat more than just wanting to be around people who look like you. There must be certain values or certain characteristics that are shared that make it a more comfortable environment. Do you have some ideas about, maybe specifics, like I wonder, what is it that we, as Japanese Americans, in a Christian church, have as our characteristics of faith, as opposed to joining a mainstream church? Is it...

PN: Yeah.

BF: Wider feeling?

PN: Yeah. And I really wrestle with the same question. I really feel that, and this is a -- probably the reason for a lot of them prefer to be in their own ethnic group is that not only do they feel comfortable, not only are there some cultural hangover from Japan, but then they don't feel at home in the larger group in the sense that they become the victims of a paternalism. And, you know, "We, we're so happy to have you with us," and all that. But no, not in places of real decision-making leadership. They're always this, subservient to the dominant group. And I think you -- if people that do take that initiative are those that just want to blend in and become almost invisible in that particular group. I mean, there's not that strong leadership. And in order to develop that, I think they figure, well they'd rather be with their own, and take their own initiative and making their own decisions. And so they would prefer to be with the Japanese group -- not only just feeling comfortable, but they feel that they're more involved in it. And they're taking leadership, making decisions, and doing something about it. Uh-huh.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright © 1999 Densho. All Rights Reserved.