Densho Digital Archive - Tomio Moriguchi Interview III

<Begin Segment 1>

TM: Well you know, when my father learned to make fish cake in the city of Uwajima, and so they used to grind it and then, grind it meaning through a meat grinder. And make like a sausage, then you would mix it in a mixer like this with salt, I think we used certain amount of flour, cornstarch, and then... but nowadays what we -- you could buy the surimi already made into surimi, and this process is just to mix the vegetable into it or add a little flavor, maybe a little salt or something.

BF: So what fish was used back when your father made it? What fish?

TM: Well you can use almost any white fish, but we used to use lingcod which is really good. But nowadays I think these are pollack and other types of fish. But if you use other than white fish, the satsumaage looks black or dark. So, it's a visual issue. Actually if you use perch, it comes out gray and black. It doesn't look good but it's really tasty. [Laughs]

BF: Mmmm.

TM: But it's a lot of work to cut little perches like this. We used to buy lingcod for -- I don't know -- ten cents a pound. Now it's a dollar a pound or you know...

BF: Yeah.

TM: And it's not so easy to get. Probably wouldn't pay to start from a fresh lingcod or frozen, cut it, and grind it. It would take a long time.

BF: And so your father used to make it -- I mean, that's how the business started.

TM: Right. We started making this and kamaboko, satsumaage and kamaboko, probably late afternoon, evening. And in the morning he would sell it to the different camps where the Japanese, mostly bachelors were. Like, and I told you, railroad camps, fishing camps, lumber camps.

BF: Uh-huh. And he'd deliver it the next morning?

TM: Yeah. And I think he was, I'm assuming that was the edge he had over other companies, because you know, everybody could get shoyu and miso and rice. But he had this fresh kamaboko and satsumaage that was, I guess, unique Uwajimaya products.

BF: And how was -- is this something that is considered a staple in Japan? I mean...

TM: Actually, satsumaage is, well it's pretty basic. It's used in udon and oden and things. So it's kind of basic. It's not considered fancy food. However, kamaboko is because it has to be white, and you have to use the best meat. So it is, it's used for gifts and for special occasions. But kamaboko is a different story because it's, the process the same but you have to use real good meat to start with otherwise you get blemishes in the kamaboko. But if you see kamaboko and it's all white...

BF: Right.

TM: And pure, so it just elevates the process a little higher, so... even kamaboko in Japan, giving it as a gift is a little more luxurious item.

BF: Uh-huh. And you said that the recipe for the flavoring of the satsumaage is pretty much still your father's, after all these years?

TM: Well, yes and no. The surimi is basically, is surimi. Yeah.

BF: It comes already flavored?

TM: A lot of it. It might just lack some salt. So basically it was my father's but it's like bread I guess. You could say you have your own recipe, but bread is bread. But I think the challenge was when you get different fish and different water contents, to adjust it. With little more flour and little more cornstarch. That was the secret, I think. But nowadays with this frozen, it's pretty consistent, yeah.

BF: And so where is this satsumaage probably going to be sold at? Uwajimaya's?

TM: I think most of it is primarily Uwajimaya, both in retail and we use it in our deli. So if you order some kind of udons you get that. We wholesale very little here.

<Begin Segment 2>

BF: So now what is this machine going to do?

TM: Well you know this is modern system. Before we used to have a tray. We had to put it by hand and then use a wooden scoop to put it into a frying pan. And we had two big frying pans. One with a lower temperature, and once it gets, the inside cooked you put it into the higher temperature, more for color and finishing it off. This is a process where it's all automated, and then the temperature varies. Naturally when you put the cold stuff it's cool, but it gets hotter as it cooks... and so it comes out automatically. But we used to this by hand.

BF: So how hot is that oil?

TM: Oh I don't know. It's... I forgot. It's something that my father -- we used to just test it by throwing water on there, and if it crackles, you knew it was hot enough. You know, all cooks do that.

BF: Yeah. So what do you think your father would think about how all of these things from sushi-making to satsumaage are machines?

TM: Yeah, I think he would be surprised we're still doing it, I think. [Laughs]

BF: Surprised why? 'Cause, think people would lose interest in fish cakes?

TM: Well, you know we used to make tofu and we used to -- you know slowly if economics doesn't work we cut it out. And so, I'll be very frank. We could buy satsumaage from a firm in California, and Hawaii, and Japan. But people seem to want it so we keep it on.

BF: So people still want the local, the...

TM: Yeah, apparently, yeah. It's like the tofu, you know the Japanese -- well the Japanese Americans eat the harder tofu , they call that momen tofu, made out of... cloth. In Japan you don't find that anymore. It's all chemically hardened, but it's very soft and... but people, especially the Niseis, still think that tofu should be firm and have that usual flavor, but... I have a feeling when the Niseis -- well, I don't know -- Sanseis, Yonseis... it's something that, old custom doesn't die. The other things like miso, Niseis tend to, Sanseis use a white, sweet miso?

BF: Yeah.

TM: In Japan it's red and saltier. But I mean, just to give you an example. Old tastes die hard.

BF: Yeah, yeah. We're eating the foods that they ate in Japan, what -- forty...

TM: Oh, hundred years ago.

BF: ...hundred years ago. [Laughs]

TM: At least, yeah.

<Begin Segment 3>

[Ed. note: Shots of satsumaage moving down conveyer belt]

TM: Temperature of the oil? Oh, right there.

BF: Oh. 345?

TM: Wow. But I think it gets cooler, then warmer, I think. I never measured it when we were making it, but like I say, we used to splash water in it. Then my dad could just tell.

BF: He could just tell.

TM: Yeah.

[Interruption]

[Ed. note: Shots of satsumaage cooking]

TM: They want to eat some right away. [Laughs] It's really good, I'll tell you.

BF: You know, I've never had it hot.

<Begin Segment 4>

TM: Only problem is you have to go home and take a shower because you smell like... [Laughs] I was wondering why I never had a date. [Laughs]

BF: That fried fish cake smell, huh Tomio? Tomio, would you explain what this machine, what's it doing?

TM: Well this, like I say, in the old days we used to really mix it from scratch. You know, the fish, and salt and everything. But now, what we do is buy it frozen. In fact, this machine takes the frozen surimi, and just slices it for ease -- thaw it out easier, and uniform. They're made uniform. And a lot of this surimi now is made on factory ships on the ocean.

BF: As soon as they're caught.

TM: Hmm?

BF: As soon as they're caught, they're processed right away?

TM: Right, and then they're transferred. They probably go to Japan first and they're distributed. We buy that. But, then once we put it in here, you just, I don't know exactly but you might add a little more salt and whatever. Then we put in the vegetables, mix it up.

BF: What's the vegetables? Carrots and...

TM: Well, see, we have different kinds. Primarily carrots. But we -- the one I love is the gobou, you know.

BF: Oh.

TM: Yeah, or we have some with... but I think it's carrots and, gee, I don't know. It looks like onions. What is it? Onion and gobou? Oh. Spinach and green onion.

BF: Oh.

TM: Did we make the gobou one yet? That's a good one. I like the gobou. They want to eat that right away. [Laughs]

BF: Okay. And then so once it's mixed it goes in here? So it goes to this machine and the machine shapes it?

TM: This one, yeah. It just makes a cake out of it. Nothing sophisticated.

BF: Uh-huh. Oh, go ahead.

TM: It's just that like I say, we used to just do it by hand before.

BF: A pretty long process, though, to do by hand. Your father and you must have been --

TM: Well, it would take two of us. One would put it in and then one would take it from one pot, turn it over and then bring it into the other one.

BF: So how many, how long would it take you? Remember? Like was it late at night, you would be doing this?

TM: We had something about, I would say, half this volume so, two, three hours. For one batch.

BF: Yeah, I think there's that picture you showed me, right? From the JACL installation booklet.

TM: Oh, yeah, with the machine, yeah, right.

BF: A big mixer machine, yeah.

TM: Apparently in Tacoma they had it with a belt and things, you know, to turn it.

BF: Oh, I see.

TM: That picture had the belt, and you would use different machinery with belts. But all the same principle.

BF: Uh-huh.

TM: This one here, it's made specifically for surimi, kind of a three-way. It eliminates the burning at the bottom, because it's kind of a... so they use this principle for a lot of things. Anything with beans, just mixes so it won't burn at the bottom. Although nowadays, different story. If you use a steam heat, double boiler, then it doesn't burn as much. But if you have a concentrated gas-type, you have to really be careful because it'll burn on the spot.

BF: Oh, interesting.

TM: So, I remember when we used the cake mix, we had to go just back and scrape it up every now and then. They want to take some back to the office, too, right?

BF: [Laughs]

TM: Give it to the crew there.