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PW: So to reorient ourselves, we're now, you're graduating high school. What year did you graduate?

RO: In 1951.

PW: '51. And you are now at Reedley High School?

RO: Reedley College.

PW: I'm sorry, Reedley College, where you were getting your first exposure to art education. Were there any influential teachers specifically?

RO: Well, as I remember, I think there was only one teacher. I don't remember taking a class from any other teachers, and his name was Erikson, I don't remember the first name. And he was a very traditional watercolorist, which is very typical of the valley and so on because it was not a lot of really modern or contemporary art taking place here in the valley. So then he kind of taught us about techniques and composition and so on, which you wouldn't normally learn. So then that was transferred to then when I went to Fresno State, and when I transferred to Fresno State, and again, in Fresno State there were, let's see, one, two, three, four, there were five art teachers at Fresno State at that time. And so you took a class, because I was declared as an art major, so then you took the classes that were required to fulfill that major, and everything from art history to photography to ceramics to painting, drawing.

PW: That's such a bold decision already. How many years did you start, how many years were you studying at Reedley?

RO: At Reedley? Two.

PW: Two years, and then you transferred.

RO: Right.

PW: I mean, I'm impressed, as an artist myself, that you already knew you wanted to do an art major.

RO: You're right. I never expected, even thought about doing that, as I had mentioned after high school, I had no idea about then a career in art or whatever. I thought, well, then, I'd just go to the service because that's what people did at that time, but it was that introduction to that Reedley College class that kind of created a spark and so on. And I continued on to Fresno State, and of course, at Fresno State, there was years of exposure. The number of classes that you took, and there were all these like-minded people doing all these wonderful, wonderful things. So that was consuming, really consuming for me.

PW: So who was in the art department at the time? Who was teaching and what was the vibe?

RO: Well, they were all older teachers and they were all teachers that had been traditional in their practice and so on. I think Darwin Musselman, who was the drawing and painting teacher, he was probably one of the most well-known artists in Fresno at that time. Because the contributions that he had made from the churches to the civic groups and then to, they had this name, and a lot of people that followed, said, "Oh, yeah, Darwin Musselman was, he was the man." And yet there was a couple, Adolph and Ella Odorfer, he was the ceramics department teacher, he was the only one, and then Ella was teaching art history as well as life drawing and photography. And then there was another teacher teaching watercolor, a man teaching art history and so on. So it was a little bit of everything that you did, but at that time, it was so consuming that I wanted to spend as much time there in the art department as possible. So I even talked in the teacher that was in charge of the department, and says that, "Is there anything we can do?" They said, "Well, we'd like to hire you." I said, "Oh, that's wonderful. If you would take care of them, all the kind of things that our department needs to be able to teach these classes, everything from easels to paint to still life material and so on. So they had this one section in which it was organized in a way because it was just a mess of things that were put back. And so you felt very comfortable in that situation, having that relationship with these teachers, and yet feeling an important part of the art department at that time.

PW: And you were still a student?

RO: Yes.

PW: And I'm just kind of curious, describe to me, you're taking studio classes as well, like what are you drawn to? Like what are the mediums that you felt the most comfortable with, what was piquing your curiosity?

RO: And I think, again, with Darwin Musselman then, because they also taught graphic design classes, he was also then a graduate of the ArtCenter School in Los Angeles which was the school at that time. So then he would teach us about illustration as well as drawing and painting and so on. So that was something that I thought, well, gee, that seems like, yeah, I would like to be an illustrator or work in a graphic department, someone in advertising. So then at that time, I took as many classes and I did independent study classes and so on. And to be able to go and be on my own, to go ahead and develop my own curriculum and then be able to go ahead and work on that. So then at that time, then after graduating, then I had said, well, I think that maybe I'd like to go to the ArtCenter School. So then I left Fresno and went down there, and because I was between... excuse me, I'm getting everything mixed up now.

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