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TI: So let's move on to -- again, I'm going to jump around because I want to get you to... yeah, so I'm going to really jump all the way to 1983 now. And this is Labor Day weekend, 1983. So this is, you're already in DC, you're working in the government, you mentioned that the Commissioner of Social Security, you've already done that. But Labor Day weekend, 1983, was when you went to Santa Barbara. So tell me about that, that weekend and why you went to Santa Barbara.

JS: Well, I had, at the time, I was the Undersecretary of Health and Human Services and the Commissioner of Social Security, which was interesting. I'm not sure how you can do that legally, but I was both.

TI: Oh, so you wore both hats? I thought you had to...

JS: I had both hats on.

TI: Oh, I didn't realize that.

JS: And it was not working out. The lady who was the Secretary of Health and Human Services did not want me to be the number two, the Chief Operating Officer of the department. And I said, "Well, then, I'm going to leave." And the powers that be said, "No, we don't want you to leave, we want you to move over to the White House." So I said, gee, that sounds really interesting, and actually we were out on a sailboat at the time in the Chesapeake Bay. And we had the radio turned off, and when we got to an anchorage, some people that we knew had said, "Hey, the Coast Guard's looking for you." And I said, oh, really? So I called the Coast Guard on the radio and he said, "Sir, have you contacted area code 202-456-1414 today?" I said, "No, that's the White House switchboard." I said, "No." He said, "Sir, could you get to a land phone and call 202-456-1414." I said, "Okay."

TI: And before you go on, generally if you got something like that, what would that mean to you?

JS: Well, I knew what the phone number was.

TI: Right, but what are you thinking before you make the call? I'm just curious, are you, like, worried, are you concerned, do you think, oh, this bad news, good news, what goes on?

JS: I had no idea why they were calling me. So I called, I spoke to, I think it was Jim Jenkins, it might have been Ed... no, I don't think I spoke to Ed Meese at that time. But anyway, he said, "We want you to move over to the White House and take Marty Anderson's job," which was the chief domestic and economic policy advisors to the president. I said, well, that sounds interesting, and that's how I got to go out, the president was out at the ranch in Santa Barbara. And Ed Meese said, "Well, come out and let's talk about it," because he was there at the time. And so I flew out to Santa Barbara. And I checked in late at night, and the next morning I got up and I went to the staff headquarters there and things were in kind of an uproar. And I said, "Ed," I said, "what's going on?" He said, "We think the Russians," or the Soviets, "just shot down a Korean airliner."

TI: I remember that when that happened. So this is essentially your first day of work.

JS: Uh-huh, in the White House.

TI: I'm curious, I don't remember this from your memoir. Did your wife go with you to Santa Barbara?

JS: No.

TI: Not on that trip, okay. The reason I ask is, there was this humorous story you tell in your memoir when you took the Assistant Secretary position of Health and Human Services, that initially you didn't want that position.

JS: Oh no, undersecretary, no, I didn't want it.

TI: Yeah. And I thought it was a great story, and what you said was, well, part of it was, well, "My wife won't, doesn't want this to happen."

JS: Yeah, they had me in a hot box, and they were pushing me because it was palace intrigue. They had decided that they were going to appoint this congresswoman from Massachusetts who had never voted with Ronald Reagan in the past, they were going to make her...

TI: So that's a headscratcher that they would do that first. I mean, at that level, why would they do that? I mean, that's always puzzled me.

JS: Well, it puzzled everybody.

TI: But then, but they thought the solution was to make you the undersecretary, because you would actually run things.

JS: That was the deal, was that I was going to be the number two, the chief operating officer of the department, and the administration would get credit for having appointed a woman as the cabinet secretary. But it didn't work that way.

TI: And when you understood the deal, you really didn't want to be part of it, is my understanding?

JS: Well, no, I said no. I know that woman, I said, "You guys are crazy." And I was sitting in Ed Meese's office with Ed and Mike Deaver and Jim Baker.

TI: Oh, The Troika.

JS: I said, "You guys are crazy." I said, "You can tell her to do anything you want and she will not do it."

TI: Right. And so you knew this, and yet you took the job. So what made you take the job?

JS: Well, I said I'm not doing it, and Mike Deaver said, "Well, why not?" And I said, "Well, one reason is I told my wife I wouldn't do it." And he said, "Where is your wife?" I said, "She's at home," and he turned to somebody and he said, "Go get her." So I got on the phone, I called her up, I said, "There's going to be a car there to pick you up and bring you to the White House. And she said okay, but by then she was used to funny things happening. And so when she got there, she came in to the White House and came into Ed's office and we were still there, I forget who was still in the room. But then Mike said, "Let's go." And we started out and Jill said, "Where are we going?" "Where are we going?" I said, "I don't know, but if we go into a room with no corners, you say, 'Hello, Mr. President,' to the tall guy in the brown suit." And so she did. He put the arm on her, and I think I wound up saying okay.

TI: I love that story. But it also said to me, you have to be careful. If you give a reason to not do something...

JS: Then they remove the reason.

TI: They remove the reason.

JS: Then you no longer have it.

TI: I know, and that was part of that story, too.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2023 Densho. All Rights Reserved.