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TI: And it's really interesting. I speak a lot at schools, especially high schools, about the Japanese American World War II incarceration. And the way I like to talk about it are the lessons we learned. And one of the lessons is, in some ways, and I think the United States did good in this case in terms of, it made a mistake in terms of the World War II incarceration. And it took a few decades, but they looked at what happened and they admitted a wrong. And in today's political climate, when I talk to students, oftentimes they say, well, was it a left or a right issue? And I say, "No, this was signed by Ronald Reagan, a Republican president. And the person who actually signed the executive order during World War II was a Democratic president. So it goes beyond party. And this really is part of what we can learn as Americans in terms of one of the strengths of our country, that we can do this. I think, in some ways, in this case, we did this as well as I think any other country would do in the world. And so it is something that, as difficult as this issue, the process that we went through with the redress and that Reagan signed this, is, I think, a really important American moment, and I think students get this. And so I just want to let you know that this is a big issue that I think will live on and on. And in some ways, it feels like sometimes these things are happenstance almost in terms of people being in the right place at the right time. And I think having you in the administration in your position at this moment, and having this connection with Frank Sato, and Frank Sato being in his position, all this happening, I think, actually made the difference. It's exciting, as a historian, to see in some ways how history is made. And I'm sure you have other stories in terms of, it could have gone this way or that way, but that's how history is made. So again, thank you for your time. Is there any other last comments or any other thoughts that you have before we end this interview?

JS: No. I have no idea... I have no idea who got it, I don't know where the idea that he was going to veto the bill or wouldn't sign it, I mean, Washington's a funny place. And it dwells on rumor, and if there isn't one, well, let's start one, and that's sort of the way it works. And that's forty years ago. Now, I mean, you mentioned that Roosevelt was a Democrat and Reagan was a Republican. Well, when Roosevelt signed that, Reagan was a Democrat.

TI: Yeah, I think he ran a union or something.

JS: Yeah, Screen Actors Guild. So you say, well, those are labels that we attached. And you said, "Maybe you're not a Republican now." Maybe I'm not, because I sure don't agree with a whole lot that is going on in recent years. And I'm not sure we're to the point where we can really go back and say, "Well, let's work something out," "Let's use some common sense," "Let's see if we can't compromise somewhere where we can get to where we all want to get." And I'm not sure we can do that today. I mean, look at the debt ceiling.

TI: So why can't we? And maybe that's why, part of my work that I want to do is to see if -- especially when, and maybe I, as a historian, I get too enamored of the past, and there are problems with the past. But there are some things that were very powerful. As you talk about having a relationship with Bob Matsui, again, a liberal Democrat, right? Or again, you wouldn't call him a liberal Democrat now, but a Democrat. And there were these relationships to get things done. And it was, in my perspective, not always, but oftentimes, a healthy debate, discussion, which I think is good. We have gone away from that so much. And as a democracy, it feels like, for the democracy to thrive in any way, or even survive, we have to go back to some of that, we can't continue on this path.

JS: Oh, I agree. This thing about the debt ceiling, we supposedly have the Speaker negotiating with the president. What happened to the Senate? The way legislation normally works is it originates in the House or it originates in the Senate. They're different bills, you get together in a room, I've been in that room. And there's a lot of people there and everybody's got an issue and they just, the two chairmen just roll through it and they come out with a bill that then it goes to the president. So maybe the president is going to veto it, but at least you have the Republicans and Democrats in the House and the Senate going to the president and saying, "We've passed this in a bipartisan manner." But now we're sitting here, we're gambling with the world economy on a whim.

TI: And so, to me, it says it's broken right now.

JS: Oh, yeah.

TI: And we're not owning up to that, we're not, sort of, seeing that. I mean, a lot of people see it, but we're not fixing it in any way, and it feels like it's getting, potentially could get very, very bad, very quickly.

JS: We're almost there. [Laughs]

TI: And so, Jack, with that, we'll keep talking, but at this point we'll end the recorded interview. And again, thank you so much for your time.

JS: No, you're supposed to say, "Pau already."

TI: Say what?

JS: Pau already.

TI: Oh yeah, pau already. But see, I'm not a Hawaii guy, I'm a Seattle guy. But, yeah, pau, so we'll go pau. But again, thank you so much.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright © 2023 Densho. All Rights Reserved.