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TI: But going back to the, kind of, differing influences the president was getting, earlier you mentioned Al Simpson. And Al Simpson has said that -- because he was meeting with the president as you said -- that he would mention to the president, his experiences with the World War II Japanese American incarceration, with his story with Norm Mineta. Because the two of them were Boy Scouts, they met at Heart Mountain, Wyoming, and Al Simpson, a Republican, Norm Mineta, a liberal Democrat, were actually very good friends.

JS: He wouldn't be called a liberal Democrat today. [Laughs]

TI: Yeah. Really? Well, not a liberal now, exactly as you probably wouldn't be called a Republican today. But another tangent, we won't go there. But Al says that he talked to the president about that. And did you ever know that, did you ever hear him talking?

JS: I don't remember, I really don't. I mean, I know that story, and I'm sure that Al did, because Al was always willing to open his mouth and express an opinion on almost any subject. He was a great guy.

TI: Yeah, I know him, too, and I enjoy his stories. But on the other side, so complicating this is, all Japanese Americans weren't for redress. You had S.I. Hayakawa. This is before Reagan got into the administration, but he was the California U.S. Senator, and he was publicly opposed to redress. So I think it was through the S.I. Hayakawa story that I heard about maybe his connection or something with Ed Meese or something, that there was an opposition to redress, and to some people, surprisingly, it was from a Japanese American. Although S.I. Hayakawa was born in Canada, so his family and he were not affected by the U.S. actions during World War II.

JS: Oh, he wasn't?

TI: Yeah, he was in Canada.

JS: Oh, he was in Canada.

TI: Yeah, he was born in Canada.

JS: But he hadn't moved to California yet.

TI: Yeah.

JS: But if he had moved to California, he would have been.

TI: He would have been, and maybe his opinion would have been different if his family had been. But he was known to say, essentially, these baby boomer Japanese Americans, activists or extremists, and, "We shouldn't listen to them about redress," was his stance.

JS: He was a funny guy.

TI: Yeah, I mean, with his hat. And I know the stories that when he was president of San Francisco State and all that, very colorful character. Did you know him?

JS: Well, I know him, or knew him, but we weren't colleagues or anything like that. But I had the opportunity to observe Sam in a lot of different things, and he was a character.

TI: And it appeared he had access to Ronald Reagan at times?

JS: Well, he was from San Francisco and we had George Shultz and Cap Weinberger, I mean, they were all from that area, so I wouldn't be surprised. Plus, he was a United States Senator.

TI: A Republican U.S. Senator.

JS: Republican, yeah. I'll tell you a funny story. I was at a fundraiser, no, I think it was a California State Society party on Capitol Hill one night, and Sam came in, he was late. And he went up right away and he grabbed the microphone and he started in about, "We've got to beat these guys, we've got to do this." He thought it was a political fundraiser for Republicans and it was a California State Society. And John Burton walked up later and said, "I get the mike, too." [Laughs]

TI: And I'm guessing, as colorful as they are, they rolled with it really easily.

JS: Yeah.

TI: That's a good story.

<End Segment 17> - Copyright © 2023 Densho. All Rights Reserved.