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TI: Well, let's talk about, in the case for you and the Reagan administration at that point, what was your role and responsibility and your relationship to the president specifically? How did it work?

JS: Well, it involved a lot. I mean, in the first term, we had the so-called Troika, and each one had an assigned responsibility. Early on in the first one or two years, three years, something like that, there'd been a lot of friction between the camps, if you will, and that caused a lot of leaks. The President was, he didn't like that. He was mad about that.

TI: And so when you say the camps, it's among the three of them? So between Deaver, Meese and Baker?

JS: Baker.

TI: Okay. Was it like three different camps, or was there like more of a California camp and a Baker camp?

JS: Well, that's a different group, too. I mean, in fact, we did have... we had a group that came out of Sacramento, and the original strategy, I think, even though I was not party to it, was in each department you could have someone, if the secretary was not a Californian, then the number two person had to be somebody who was known to the President and to the administration as having come out of government in California. And we had a club called the Hangtown Fry. We would all get together no matter where you were, if you were in the National Health Service or you were running NOAA, or you're in the Census Bureau or wherever you were, then we'd all get together and commiserate.

TI: Talk about the dysfunction in Washington, D.C.?

JS: This is true.

TI: But so what I wanted to... okay, so again, your relationship and role with the president...

JS: Like I said, it evolved. When Mike and Ed and Jim were there, it was more a team operation. Everybody had their differences and everybody had their own hobby horse and that sort of thing. But even so, we still worked together. I mean, I was a member of the Legislative Study Group, which was Baker's group, to figure out how to get things through Congress. We worked pretty much together. Then in the second term, in 1985, then all of a sudden we had a big swap. And Ed Meese was going over to be Attorney General, Jim Baker swapped jobs with Don Regan, who came over from Treasury, Baker went to treasury and Regan became the Chief of Staff, and it was a totally different ballgame.

TI: And when you have that kind of transition, that kind of switch, was part of it, is it almost like getting away from the... what's the right word? I mean, I always read about how high pressured it is in those positions. Is it almost like a form of pulling back a little bit, or is it like people are just... why are people moving at that level? Especially when you're at the pinnacle, you're right there next to the president, why would you move away from that?

JS: Well, Baker did because he was worn out. He spent four years doing that, and he was tired. I mean, being the Chief of Staff to the President of the United States is a very powerful and important job, but people don't really know it. I mean, they think it might be, but they have no idea what really transpired. And being a cabinet officer of a cabinet department like the Treasury Department, is a big deal.

TI: But not as pressured as chief of staff or something like that.

JS: Well, you were your own boss, pretty much, so you can call the shots. When you're working as a staff person anywhere, you're a staff guy, and that's a different role.

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