Densho Digital Repository - Sam Mihara Interview

Densho Digital Repository
Densho Visual History Collection
Title: Sam Mihara Interview
Narrator: Sam Mihara
Interviewer: Brian Niiya
Location: Los Angeles, California
Date: October 7, 2022
Densho ID: ddr-densho-1000-516

<Begin Segment 1>

BN: So it is October 7, 2022, and we're really happy to be interviewing Sam Mihara. We're here at the Japanese American National Museum in Los Angeles, California, and we have Yuka Murakami of JANM doing the videography. So thank you so much, Sam, for sitting with us, I've been really looking forward to this. And as we do, I think with most of our Nisei interviews, I always want to start with asking you about your parents. Although in your case, maybe it's your grandparents, because you have a somewhat unusual situation with your grandparents having come over first. So, yeah, I wonder if you could talk about the Mihara family.

SM: Sure. My grandparents on my father's side, they were from a place called Shikoku island, which is west of Tokyo about 300 miles. And the town was named Matsuyama, Matsuyama city or Matsuyama-shi. My grandparents were not in the upper class, they were working-class people, and my grandfather was a miso maker, that was his specialty. And my grandmother worked in a factory making textile, they were famous for making a certain type of textile, cotton. And so they worked very hard in order to help pay for my father's education. They knew, in order to break out (from the working class), they needed to have my father get a good education and look for a job elsewhere, preferably in the U.S. So they sent him to a very good college called Waseda University. And they worked very hard in order to have him graduate. What was unusual is that his major was in English, and his minor was religion. So when he graduated, he was very good in English, and, of course, he's very good in Japanese. And so he had no problems finding a good job in San Francisco working for a newspaper. The paper was called the New World Sun, and it's a bilingual paper. And my father, his first job was to write articles in English for this bilingual newspaper. And that developed into a better job, and he became an editor of the paper, and so he was quite successful. He met my mother in San Francisco and they got married, and as a result, I was born in 1933 in San Francisco. And so I'm an American citizen by birth.

BN: Okay, thank you. Can you just let us know your father's and your mother's names?

SM: Sure. My father's name was Tokinobu Mihara, and my mother had actually two names. In Japan, she was born with the name Sueko. But when she came to the U.S., my father gave her a new name, which is in English, called Esther. And so she now became Esther Sueko Mihara. And that's been her name ever since she was married.

BN: And then the newspaper your father worked for, became editor for, this is the Shin Sekai?

SM: Shin Sekai is the Japanese name for the New World Sun newspaper.

BN: And do you know what year he came over?

SM: It was about 1920, just after he graduated. So he didn't spend very much time beyond the college to get to work. So he came fairly quickly.

BN: And then you mentioned that he, because of his education at Waseda, he spoke English really well. What about your mother?

SM: Well, my mother came from Yokohama. I don't think she was college educated. In fact, she went to high school in San Francisco, and probably shortly after that, then she met my father. But they lived around the corner, their house was just around the corner from us. And that's how they met.

BN: And did she also speak English pretty well?

SM: She did not speak very well, English, I remember speaking to her in Japanese more often than not. My father was very bilingual, and I had no trouble speaking either English or Japanese.

BN: And then your Mihara grandparents, they were also in the U.S. as well?

SM: Naturally they came to San Francisco before, while (my father) was in college, and they established a miso factory in the basement of our house. And that's how he began, by being able to make some money to help pay for my father's education.

BN: Now, did your father have siblings?

SM: What?

BN: Did your father have brothers and sisters?

SM: Oh, my father had one sister, elder sister, and one younger brother.

BN: Okay, so he was the oldest son.

SM: He was the oldest son, right.

BN: What happened to them?

SM: Oh, they went their ways. Sister after camp went to Chicago, and the brother went to New York.

BN: But they were both in the U.S. also?

SM: They were both in the U.S.

BN: Were they in San Francisco as well?

SM: Yes, they were in San Francisco up until that time before the war.

BN: And then in terms of your family, and you had a brother, I know.

[Interruption]

BN: So in San Francisco, did your grandparents live all together under one roof with your family?

SM: My grandfather on my father's side and my grandparents on my mother's side lived separately.

BN: Okay. Oh, your grandparents on your mother's side were also here?

SM: Yes, right.

<Begin Segment 2>

BN: And then you mentioned the home. Did the family own the home?

SM: I believe they owned their home. It was on a place called Laguna Street about three blocks from the heart of San Francisco Japantown. Then because of his success, my father was able to afford a very, very comfortable house, a three-story Victorian on Sutter Street near Buchanan Street right in the heart of Japantown. In fact, that house was eventually turned over to JACL, it became the headquarters, San Francisco headquarters of JACL on Sutter Street. So that was after we came back from the war.

BN: Okay, yeah, I know exactly where that is. So is it the same building?

SM: Exact same building. They tore our house down and they built the JACL.

BN: The new JACL headquarters right on that spot. Wow, okay. Where did you go to school?

SM: Where did I go to school?

BN: Yes, as an elementary school...

SM: Well, I went to a grammar school about three blocks from my house called Raphael Weill. Raphael Weill school was very close to Japantown, so we had a lot of our friends going to the same school. Then after that, after the war, I went in to the camp aged nine, I was in the fourth grade. So after the war, we went to Salt Lake City, and then after Salt Lake City we moved back to San Francisco and I went to high school in San Francisco called Washington, George Washington High School. And I was there for one year and then I heard about this special private school, a college prep school called Lick Wilmerding, and so I went there. And I graduated from Lick Wilmerding High School.

BN: Yes, we'll get to that in a bit. But back to before the war, were your parents active in the community and things like a church or kenjinkai or Japanese Association or that kind of thing?

SM: My mother was not very active socially outside the house. But my father was, partly because of his business being a newspaper reporter, he had many connections. So he would be very active. I remember him interviewing a lot of people and getting to know a lot of people. So he was more outgoing and did a lot of work with their local Christian church and other organizations in San Francisco.

BN: So was your family Christian then?

SM: Yes, they were primarily Christian. My father minored in religion, and that's where he learned Christianity when he was in college. Kind of interesting story, he was fascinated with Hebrew, with the Jewish language and the Jewish religion. And I'm not sure, but I have a feeling he was almost a Japanese Jew, if you can imagine. But he finally settled in Christianity, and that's what his preferred religion was.

BN: Was he active in one of the local churches in San Francisco?

SM: Yes. It was called the Church of Christ on Post Street, and we were very active in that church.

BN: Was it a kind of Japanese church?

SM: It's a Japanese church. At that time, it was headed by a Reverend Howard Toriumi. I remember Howard and he was a very pivotal leader in the community.

BN: And then as a child, did you take part in church-related or other community-related activities, sports or Boy Scouts?

SM: I wasn't really active in the church except for a function that we held every Wednesday evening, and that was a choir practice night. Every Wednesday we would, all the people of my age would gather and go to church for choir practice. In fact, that's where I met my wife first time.

<Begin Segment 3>

BN: Oh, okay. Lost my train of thought... oh, I was going to ask you about, your father had some eye problems from fairly early on? I wonder if you could talk a little about that.

SM: My father knew he had early stages of glaucoma of his eyes way back when he was in college. In fact, I read about it in his autobiography, in his book, and he wrote about knowing that he had glaucoma. And in fact, he also wrote in his book that he was very depressed when learned, because at that time it was almost certain blindness after a fairly short period of time. In fact, in his book, he wrote that he had contemplated suicide as a means of trying to solve the problem. But then he also wrote that his religious belief in Christianity helped him to find a path, a way to survive, and for that he was very thankful. And I think that's what turned him to Christianity as a religion, because he was able to find a goal in life and pursue it, even though he might become blind. And I think that's the reason why he was so strong in being a Christian. But the important thing is, after he came to San Francisco, he found a very good eye specialist, a specialist who was an ophthalmologist surgeon, and he was able to see him and do whatever was needed, the procedures needed in order for him to maintain his eyesight. And this is back in those days when they don't have medication like they have today, and as a result, the skilled professional was essential. In fact, he was so good, my father was able to see quite well until he went to camp. I have photographs, family photographs, and he's looking at the camera, so that clearly shows he had good eyesight. And as a result, when he went to camp, there was no one who knew how to take care of glaucoma. Most of the doctors were general practitioners and very few specialists. And what's significant is General DeWitt would not let my father go back to see his specialist, even on a short visit. So that was clearly a very inhumane action on the part of DeWitt. So what happened was my father became blind relatively quickly, and I watched him go blind in a relatively short time. And that was really a tough, tough time for our family. But again, it was my father's belief in Christianity that saved him. And I can talk more about that later on what happened after camp.

BN: Right, yeah, we'll definitely get to that.

<Begin Segment 4>

BN: Yes, what I was going to ask you about that I forgot was about Japanese language school. Did you and your brother attend Japanese school?

SM: Well, that's kind of an interesting and embarrassing part of my life. My father, being an expert in Japanese language, tried very hard to get me to go to Japanese language school. For some reason, at that age, age nine, I was not interested. I had no desire to learn Japanese, at least the reading and the writing portion. And I can remember my father kept urging me and my mother kept urging me, and my mother kept urging me, but I refused. I wanted to go to American school, learn English, and be with my friends. So that was kind of a part of my life I'm really not proud of, but at least my father tried.

BN: I did the same thing. Given that your family was relatively well-off, did they ever go back on trips to Japan?

SM: I don't remember his taking trips to Japan. One thing that was always interesting, we have a family photo of our family at Yellowstone park in Wyoming in 1936, before the war, before we went to Heart Mountain. And looking in hindsight, I would think, my god, Father's able to afford taking a family on a vacation to Wyoming from San Francisco, he must be doing pretty well. And he bought a new house, and so I guess that's a measure of success, to be able to do things like that. So I have a photograph of our family at the geyser at Yellowstone park.

BN: Interesting. Are there a lot of family photos or studio photos and so on?

SM: Well, there were a number. Unfortunately -- and I remember this clearly -- after December the 7th, my father had a, some premonition that the government would come after him. And so what he did, he burned almost everything. I remember that fireplace was blazing day and night, he was burning everything: books, photo albums, camera films. And so a lot of our photographic records were, went up in flames. Maybe it was paranoia on his part, but the point is, at least he was smart trying to make sure he doesn't get caught with evidence that he was a spy. But I remember that very clearly.

BN: Well, as a newspaper editor, community leader, he had good reason to be fearful.

SM: Precisely. And I remember the FBI coming to the house examining him and looking through all of our equipment, oh yeah, very clear.

BN: And this may seem like an odd question, but do you remember the family car?

SM: A family...

BN: A family car.

SM: A car? Oh. We did not have a car before the war. I guess traffic, I mean, public transportation was adequate. But no, we did not have a car until after camp. And I was the driver and my brother was a driver.

BN: Okay.

<Begin Segment 5>

BN: So from here I'm going to now start switching, asking about the war and the war years. And starting by, how do you remember hearing about December 7 and the attack on Pearl Harbor and the aftermath?

SM: I can clearly remember on Sunday, December the 7th, in the afternoon, I went to a theater. The name of the theater was called Uptown Theater on Sutter Street. And after the theater, I remember coming out and I saw these headlines on the local newspaper, "Pearl Harbor is attacked." And so I went home and I remember asking my father, "Why would Japan do such a thing, and where's Pearl Harbor?" So that's the first time I remember, it happened that Sunday afternoon, December the 7th, after I came out of the theater when I heard and saw the newspaper headlines.

BN: And then this was on a Sunday, so did you go to school the following Monday?

SM: Yes, we did. Went to Raphael Weill school. Some of my friends mentioned the teachers making accusations about, "You people bombed Pearl Harbor." My teacher did not, but I've heard from others in the class who said similar statements. And stop to think about it, a teacher promoting racial hatred in a class of young kids, but that's what happened in San Francisco. And I understood it happened at other places as well.

BN: And just to back up for a minute, about what percentage of the student body at your school was of Japanese ancestry?

SM: In San Francisco I would roughly guess, based on photos of the groups I have, maybe about twenty percent were Japanese. Very few Blacks, maybe one or two Blacks out of a class, several Latinos and many whites.

BN: Any Chinese?

SM: I don't remember Chinese in our neighborhood. There may have been one or two, but very, very rare. We had a Chinese, a couple of Chinese restaurants in Japantown, but Chinatown was about, about a mile away, so they had their own area.

BN: So now to go back to Pearl Harbor day and aftermath, were you aware of, like, kind of other Issei men being picked up and interned at that point in the days right after.

SM: We had heard a few people were gathered. We heard that the minister of the Konko church, which was a block from us, that he was removed from the Sunday service, they were ready, and a few others. And I'm not sure why, but my father was not among those who was removed early to go to a Department of Justice camp.

BN: Do you know offhand if other of his colleagues were arrested or interned, other newspaper people from his newspaper or even from the rival paper?

SM: I don't know if there's... I just don't know anyone else. I found out later my wife's father was one of those because it was a business owner. I've heard that some other business owners were also removed, and of course, I knew the minister was removed, and so they were pretty selective about who they removed early.

BN: Did you know your wife at that time, or did you meet her only later?

SM: I vaguely remember her because she lived around the corner. But I did not really know her well until after we came back from camp.

BN: Okay. What do you remember, do you remember other things from this period between Pearl Harbor and the actual exclusion orders? I mean, what was kind of the feeling in the household, or were you aware of that as a child?

SM: Well, we knew something was going on in the way of having us prepare for a move. There were newspaper headlines saying that removal is close, or ouster is close. And so I think most people knew that the day was coming. But I don't remember a lot of detail about how we were told.

BN: Right, because you were, like, eight or nine?

SM: I was nine at the time.

<Begin Segment 6>

BN: Do you remember the preparations, like the packing and the disposition of the home?

SM: Very vaguely. I remember my mother was the guide on what to pack. Unfortunately, the government never told us we were going to Wyoming. As a result, I recall that she simply packed California-type clothing, nothing especially warm, for northern weather. So it was ordinary-type California clothing that we took with us.

BN: Now your grandparents are still with you, right, at this point?

SM: Right.

BN: And then what happens to the family home?

SM: Well, now we had already moved to Sutter Street, the nice home. And my father knew that the home had to be taken care of. And fortunately, my father had a friend who was a white attorney in San Francisco. In fact, his name was Maurice Harrison. He was a lawyer, and he was the head of Hastings College Law School in San Francisco. And so Mr. Harrison and his wife took care of our house while we were gone. They did a really good job. In fact, his wife sent us packages during the war, things that we could not find at Heart Mountain. And I remember sending special canned foods and other essentials that we really needed. And they took care of our house while we were gone, so that was very, very helpful.

BN: Right, wow. Was it rented?

SM: I think it was rented. I'm sure there was a mortgage on it, and I suspect it had to be serviced. But I do remember after we returned to San Francisco, we moved right in, it was not a problem.

BN: Wow, so you were really one of the fortunate ones in that regard.

SM: Yes, we are very fortunate.

BN: Do you remember, what do you remember about your actual day that you had to actually leave and get on the buses, or maybe it was trains to go to the assembly center?

SM: Well, General DeWitt had posted these orders that were outside our house, and gave instructions. Gave us one week to show up and "bring with you no more than what you can carry," report to a local office where the buses came, and it happened to be at the school, Japanese language school on Bush Street, about a block from our house. And so I remember lining up on that day, that morning, with our suitcases, and getting a body search by the armed guards escorting us. From that point on, we were under constant guards watching us getting on the bus, took us to the trains that first took us to Pomona in Southern California as our temporary assembly center. And again, never telling us where we were going, they didn't tell us we were going to Pomona, they didn't tell us our ultimate destination was Heart Mountain. So it was a tough time not knowing what's going to happen to us.

BN: Did any of your school friends or even your father's friends see you off on that day?

SM: I don't remember anyone seeing us off. We just showed up at a certain time and saw other people from the neighborhood there getting on the same bus. So they must have been organized, so everyone going to the same assembly center was gathered at this one bus.

BN: And then did you take the bus to a train?

SM: Yes, I recall we took a bus to the train depot, which is south of Market Street in San Francisco. Then the train took us to Southern California, Pomona.

<Begin Segment 7>

BN: And then what do you remember about arriving at Pomona?

SM: Well, there was, the train stopped at a siding and it was very close to the Pomona camp. I recall it was close enough we were able to walk into the camp. And we were assigned a barrack which was right adjacent to a horse stall, a horse stable, but it was a temporary barrack shelter, really flimsy. There were some dividing walls, but no ceiling, open ceiling, and very noisy, and all four of us in one room. You could hear all the neighbors over the ceiling because there was no ceiling. It was a very difficult environment.

BN: Were your grandparents in a separate room?

SM: Yes, they were in a separate room, I don't remember where, but it was clearly not in the same room. So it was a family of four.

BN: So just the four immediate family.

SM: Four of us, yeah.

BN: And then in the immediate area, was it mostly other people from San Francisco who were in the same area?

SM: I don't recall where they were from, just strangers to me.

BN: What do you remember, what else do you remember about the assembly center? One thing I always ask people is, because it's such a vivid memory for a lot of people, is the bathrooms. Do you remember anything about that?

SM: Well, it was a communal bathroom, and as I recall, it had no partitions, it's kind of embarrassing. But I remember the food was awful. I don't recall exactly what the dishes were. I knew what they were at Heart Mountain, but at Pomona, all I remember is it was terrible, not the kind of food we were used to. And there were long lines waiting, waiting for food. But it was chaotic at that time.

BN: Had you been to Southern California or spent a lot of time in Southern California before being more from the Bay Area. Because the weather in Pomona is very different than it would have been in the Bay Area.

SM: Yes, that was my first time in Southern California, never been to L.A. before 1942, that was the very first time.

BN: How was the... because the weather was so different, was that noticeable?

SM: I don't remember it was especially unusual. It seems like it was a little bit warmer than San Francisco, but other than that, I don't remember exactly the climate.

BN: Do you know if your parents did any, worked in the camp at all?

SM: At the Pomona camp, I don't believe they did any work at all, no.

BN: You weren't there very long.

SM: No, that was a short time.

BN: Right, right. In terms of what they brought from home, did they literally bring just stuff in a couple suitcases, or were they able to bring more things? Or were your parents' friends able to send other things along later?

SM: I recall it's simply suitcases, nothing more than what you could carry as I recall. I had one small suitcase. Both my parents had larger suitcases, but that was fairly simple. I don't remember anything else beyond what they could carry.

BN: And then were you able to make furniture or other things once you got there?

SM: At Pomona, no, there wasn't much time, much resources to do anything else other than just wait it out and see what happens.

BN: Okay. Do you remember anything else about, because Pomona is built on the L.A. County Fairgrounds. So do you remember any elements of that, the racetrack or other areas as part of the assembly center? Grandstands?

SM: No, I don't remember that, but there was one event that I'll never forget. I had a toothache, and there were no dentists in the camp at that time. And so I remember a guard in civilian clothes escorted my mother and myself to a dentist in downtown Pomona. And I remember going and while being treated, the guard decides to stop away for doing something, I don't know what it was. But he gave instructions to my mother, "Don't move." But my mother decided she needed some essential supplies, so the guard left at first, and then she disappeared. And the guard came back, and she was gone, and he panicked. And when my mother came back with whatever she'd bought, the guard went, he went through the roof. He was really upset. I had a feeling, I knew he was carrying a gun, I have a feeling that he was ready to pull a gun on my mother in case she tried again or attempted to get away, because the guard felt he didn't do his job. And he chewed her out, I remember that very clearly. But that's about as close as she came to a disaster in the dental office in Pomona.

BN: Wow, that's quite a story.

<Begin Segment 8>

BN: So when did you find out your destination, or where you were going to be moving to, do you remember?

SM: We did not know where we were going, they never told us. We got on the government train after the assembly center, and we were on that train for three days and nights until we finally got to our destination. They never told us we were going to Heart Mountain, Wyoming, until we got there. That was the real problem in itself.

BN: What was your first impression arriving at Heart Mountain?

SM: Well, I remember it was a windy day, I'll never forget that strong wind. And it was cold, it was at night, and we got off the train, and we got put on these backs of army trucks. I remember those trucks. And piled us in like cattle inside this back of an army truck, until the truck was completely full, and then we drove off. And I remember going through the main gate, the guard tower next to the gate, going through the armed guards, driving up to our block. And I saw these rows and rows of barracks. And the truck driver let us off at our block which is called Lower Block 14 at Heart Mountain. And walking into our assigned barrack in a room called (14-22-D). 22 is the block number... I'm sorry, 14-22-D. 14 is the block number, 22 is the barrack number, and D is the room or cell within the barrack. That was a shock.

BN: At Heart Mountain, were you all, was it just the four of you or were your grandparents also with you?

SM: No, grandparents were assigned another room, another block.

BN: So it was just the four of you.

SM: Almost the opposite end of the camp. And they had their own room, which is for a couple, the end room, which was the smallest room.

BN: And then at Heart Mountain, was the block mostly San Francisco people then?

SM: Most of the people in our Lower 14 block were San Franciscans. In fact, some were from my school, I remember, and some of my classmates were in the same block.

BN: So you had kids that you already knew.

SM: Yes, we knew a couple fellows. You may have heard of, in the San Francisco area, other people, friends of mine.

<Begin Segment 9>

BN: So you would have started school in the fall of '42. So what grade was that?

SM: That was the fourth grade.

BN: What do you remember about the schooling there?

SM: Well, I thought it was very interesting. The room at the start was barren, there was nothing. Blank walls and empty rooms, it was a barrack. Because I found out the plans were to build the grammar school, but the local people demanded the government stop building the grammar school, the new schools for prisoners. And so the government stopped short of a high school, they almost finished the high school and some of the prisoners finished it up. But no grammar school, so we had to go to a grammar school which was converted from the barrack, an empty barrack, and so our first class was an empty room. And then a little bit later, the carpenters built some benches and then they built some desks. So eventually, we got the furnishings that we needed. I remember our class, grammar school class, the teacher had a problem. It turns out the government had difficulty staffing the schools with adequately skilled teachers. And there weren't enough credentialized teachers, so they hired a number of white teachers. I found out later that they hired some thirty-five teachers, white teachers from across the country to teach. And most of them went to the high school because that was the greatest demand for skilled. But my grammar school had to pick whatever was left of a group of available people to teach. And my schoolteacher, a young lady, it was obvious that she was not very well trained. Because she had a discipline problem with a bunch of us, and we were mean little kids. We were terrible, I remember that. And she would get so upset, she didn't know how to control many of us. In fact, one day she went on a strike. She refused to teach, and so she became so upset. I remember that. Strangely, it was an event that I'll never forget. But kind of demonstrates that there was lack of qualified teachers.

BN: Were all your teachers white or did you have some...

SM: My teacher was Japanese.

BN: You had a Nisei.

SM: She was a Nisei lady, young lady. But like I said, most of the white teachers were assigned to the high school.

BN: Do you remember the Nisei teacher's name?

SM: No, I sure don't. I'll be embarrassed if I remembered it.

BN: Yes, that's funny. I think kids can sense weakness in a teacher.

SM: Right, right.

BN: So I think when they see that they're getting to her, yeah, they can be mean.

<Begin Segment 10>

BN: Were you involved in other sorts of activities, Boy Scouts, sports, choir, music? I mean, there were a lot of different things.

SM: We did not do much beyond going to school. I was too young for Boy Scouts, I remember going to the Cub Scouts. And even there, it was not a lot of time spent there. So there was a lot of time on our hands, and we had to create things in order to make good use of our time.

BN: What sort of things did you do?

SM: Well, there was all kinds of things to be done, mostly other young kids of my age at that time. We had some strange interests like collecting arrowheads. The area was, initially it was the home of the Crow Indian reservation. The Crow Indians lived in there, and so there was, we did things like hunt for arrowheads. And we did some strange things like collecting wildlife, Wyoming wildlife in the desolate area. Like scorpions, and we would have a contest of capturing rattlesnakes, and cutting off the tails and have a collection to see how many rattlesnake tails we can gather. Some people created zoos under the barrack and collected these wildlife and had a show of their zoo underneath their barrack room. But those are some of the things that we did for enjoyment.

BN: And are these with, are these friends that you had primarily kids you knew from before the war or are these new friends that you made in school, or a combination?

SM: It was really a combination. The young fellow I mentioned earlier, his name was Shig Yabu, who's the author of the book, children's book, and he was in my block. Little fellow named Yamoto, Shogo Yamoto and his brother, they were also in my block. And my block also had the famed artist Estelle Ishigo. She was a white, a blond lady who followed her husband, Arthur Ishigo, into the camp, she had the option of going to the camp. And in fact, sad story, she was rejected by her family because she married a Japanese, and so she decided to stay with her husband. And so she came with them, and we got along very well. She was very, very cordial. In fact, at mealtime, she went out of her way to meet new people, other people at the dining table. And so very, very friendly, and very skilled, I remember sketch pads all over the camp, and always making illustrations, and she was very good.

BN: Yes, it's funny, she later wrote that she felt more at home in camp than she ever did before, more accepted.

SM: Yes. I learned later on that her family totally rejected her and wanted nothing to do with her. It's very sad, a sad story about what happened to her after the camp. After Arthur passed away, she was destitute and physically in really bad shape until she was found by another friend of ours who felt it was important to do something for her, Bacon Sakatani found her in a really bad nursing home.

BN: So I've got to go back and ask you about Shig now, because his story, his children's book, of course, was Hello, Maggie! and it tells the famous story about the pet magpie, I guess. Do you remember the bird?

SM: Oh, I vaguely remember the bird. I remember that he had a fascination for this bird that, the magpie that he caught and nursed to health. I did not know he was going to write a book someday about it, but more power to him. Shig has an uncanny memory for details, unbelievable. We would ride together, I would drive up to Heart Mountain on pilgrimages, and Shig would be a passenger. He would speak for seventeen hours with a new story every time. I couldn't believe the memory he had about details. But that was Shig, amazing storyteller.

BN: Now, the illustrator for that book was Willie Ito, who you knew as well.

SM: Willie Ito. In fact, I just saw Willie this morning. And Willie was, he was not at Heart Mountain, he was at Topaz. But they got to know each other. Well, they knew each other from San Francisco, they went to the same grammar school. And so Shig had Willie do the illustrations for his book. And so that was a good combination of good art and a very important book.

<Begin Segment 11>

BN: Now, at Heart Mountain, did your parents do any kind of work?

SM: Well, it turns out my father, seems like he was always trying to be creative doing something that's useful. And even after he became blind, I remember his, he created a dictionary. It was all in Roman letters, so everyone who knows English could read and understand the Japanese words in English letters. And he worked on it during camp. And I remember the secretary he had hired to come in and help him after he became blind. And so he wrote this dictionary, and he published it after he went back to San Francisco. But that was just one of the examples of his work. And I found out he wrote a textbook on how to create and speak the language, Japanese language. And he started working on an autobiography about being blind. So he did a number of things in order to be very, very busy in the camp.

BN: And what happened to the autobiography?

SM: Oh, it was published. And I have a copy at home.

BN: This is in Japanese, I assume?

SM: It's in Japanese. I had it translated, but he described the story of his becoming blind and how Christianity saved him. He went to a guide school for guide dogs, having guide dogs. He obtained a guide dog, and he went traveling without other help. He wrote a book about his travels, about being blind. So he was very busy, he enjoyed being busy after camp.

BN: What about your mom? Did she work or...

SM: My mother, interesting, she had to run a business. My father started a business at the same time, which is to open a bookstore. It happened first in Salt Lake City, when we first moved to Salt Lake City and he started the bookstore.

BN: Actually, can we get back to that?

SM: Yes.

BN: Yes, I meant in Heart Mountain. Did she have a job?

SM: I don't recall her having a job.

BN: Many Issei women also did craft classes or that kind of thing.

SM: I don't remember that at all, no.

BN: And then one thing I want to ask you about is, it's a common story among Japanese Americans in the camps, that the family kind of divided, the kids would eat separately from the parents and so forth. What happened with your family? Did you eat with your friends or did you always eat together with your parents? How did that go?

SM: Well, I recall it was kind of on and off. We ate with our parents initially, but I had many friends, Shig Yabu and Yamoto brothers and others, and eventually I'd be wandering off and joining them socially. So the family, the nuclear family kind of broke up in the camp, it was not a good scene.

<Begin Segment 12>

BN: Do you remember anything about the so-called "loyalty questionnaire"? You're just a kid, obviously, but did you sense anything going on around that?

SM: I remember my father was involved in the questionnaire. I found out later I got a copy of his actual questionnaire, original, it was in his file. And it helped explain a lot of things about my father. For example, my father, I found out he demanded that the question be revised because he could not answer question 22. And because he knew English, he knew what it meant. And so the original portion that I have shows a stapled question on top of the original question because of his demand for a better question. And that question, by the way, was very simple. It says, "Do you have loyalty to the United States government?" period. No other qualification, nothing else. And he answered 'yes' and that was it. So that clearly shows he had the skills of understanding English, being able to not answer if he felt it was not correct, so that was interesting.

BN: Yes, interesting. Since you pulled the files, anything else that was interesting or that you learned from...

SM: Oh, yeah. Question, was it 21, 22?

BN: Twenty-seven and twenty-eight.

SM: Oh, 27 and 28. Question 27, would you be willing to join the military if asked? It was a question, would you be willing to join the Women's Auxiliary Corps? My father answered, "I am not a woman." [Laughs] I thought that was funny. It was right there on the original.

BN: That's funny. Many Issei banded together to get that changed, also. They did ask Issei men that initially.

<Begin Segment 13>

BN: So you're in there not quite to the end, but for almost three years. Did you notice changes in the camp over that period, things like gardens or both the physical appearance of the camp and/or the activities or culture of the camp?

SM: Yes, I remember a number of things. One, very unique in our family was the medical health. We had really bad medical health problems, more so than perhaps almost any other family. So I remember going to the hospital frequently to see my father and my grandfather. But otherwise, my grandfather on my mother's side built a beautiful rock garden. I have a photograph of his rock garden he built, it was immaculate, it was amazing, like a small Japanese village made out of rocks, and my grandmother sitting in the middle of this rock garden.

BN: What was your grandfather... this is your (father�s)... yes, what was his name?

SM: His name was Tsunegoro Mihara, Tsunegoro. And his wife, my grandmother, was Tsune, Tsune Mihara.

BN: Wait, this is your...

[Interruption]

SM: My father's side in Heart Mountain. My mother's side went to Topaz.

BN: Topaz, okay. So this is your father's side.

SM: My father's side, sorry.

BN: Bu then he gets ill in camp, right? Your grandfather?

SM: My grandfather became very ill and I remember watching him in the hospital. And something strange happened, and that is his body started withering away, he turned out to be skin and bones within three months. He looked awful; he looked like a Holocaust survivor. And so I wondered, and then he passed away. So I wondered for a long time what happened. We had a funeral in a barrack, very difficult. And I have a photograph of the funeral service and my father and my grandmother next to me, and the casket. What happened was I was curious what really happened in that hospital. And so I got a hold of his medical records a few years back from the National Archives and I couldn't believe what I was reading. The doctors suspected he might have colon cancer, and what they did was they were trying... I call it an experiment because it was quite unusual. They were denying him nutrition. I remember because Grandfather asked, "Bring me more food, I'm hungry." And then I looked at his records and I found out there was no intravenous feeding, no attempts to try to give him nutrition. In fact, they were giving him a laxative for cancer of all things, and then he passed away. So I knew these doctors in camp, they just weren't qualified to handle specialty diseases. They didn't know how to go forth and cure glaucoma for my father and colon cancer of my grandfather. And so I feel very bad about the decision by the government not to allow reasonable medical care for people who had special problems. I found out many other families had similar problems of lack of adequate care in all the camps.

BN: So yeah, that's sad. Both your father and grandfather were really negatively affected by that lack of proper medical care.

SM: Right, right.

BN: Yes, that's terrible. What happened to your... you had the funeral in camp for your grandfather, do you know what happened to his, he wasn't buried there, I assume?

SM: No. Everyone who died, the family had a couple of options. One is to bury him at camp, there was a small cemetery. The other is to have the remains cremated, but in no case was the remains to be sent back escorted by the family, back in California. So as a result, Grandmother made the decision it had to be cremation because she's not going to want his remains staying here in Wyoming forever. And that was another problem because there was no crematory in Wyoming at that time. The closest ones were either in Montana or in Denver, and so Grandma had asked that his remains be cremated in Montana and ashes returned to stay with her until the camp was over, so that's what she decided.

BN: And then he was interred then afterwards.

SM: Yes, in a family plot in San Francisco.

BN: So do you remember, again, I know you're just a kid, so you may not, but do you remember anything about the Nisei starting to volunteer for the 442nd and later be drafted?

SM: I knew there was some activity about first volunteering and then the draft. And I remember in our mess hall in Block 14, after dinner there would be some meetings of some young people. I found out later it was the start of the resister activity, the famous Heart Mountain resisters. I didn't know any of them because they were a little bit older than me, but I remember those meetings in the mess halls.

BN: Did you have any cousins or family members who were old enough to have been in the 442nd?

SM: No, not in our family Our family was either very young like myself or adults.

BN: Adults, okay.

<Begin Segment 14>

BN: And do you remember at the end of '44, the West Coast is opened up. Was there any discussion or were you involved in any family discussion about what you were going to do at that point now that, knowing the camps were going be closed, and you could theoretically return back to the West Coast?

SM: Well, my father knew there was a problem in the West Coast. I guess because of the media and similarity with the media people, he was very concerned about the racial hatred that existed in California. He did not want the family to go back to such an environment. So he decided that we will first try go to Salt Lake City and live in Salt Lake City. And so before the camps were closed, he decided, I think it was the summer of '45, to go back to, to go to Salt Lake City and start a business, and that's what we did. And he started a bookstore in Salt Lake City, a stationery and book store. And it did not turn out very well. Mother was especially wanting to go back home, so after three years in Salt Lake City, then we decided to go back home to San Francisco.

BN: Before we get to... I'm going to ask you a few more things about Salt Lake City, but before we leave Heart Mountain, you mentioned one other thing that I wanted to ask you about, which is later in the incarceration, there was greater allowance of people to go into town to shop and so forth. And you told a story about accompanying your father to go out and shop.

SM: Oh, yes. They had a pass system. They limited the number of passes per day and we were allowed to go into town for shopping or whatever. But we had to return by a certain time, and we had to show this pass to anyone. We had to show it on exit and then show it to anyone who asked for it. I clearly remember going to downtown Cody, Wyoming, and walking up and down Main Street of Cody, which is called Sheridan Avenue, and showing my father, who was blind, what's inside his store, here's a shoe store, here's a restaurant, drugstore and so forth. Then I noticed something really unusual. About every third store, thirty percent of the stores had a sign, "No," and then the J-word. That burned in my memory, I'll never forget that, the hatred that continued to build up in the camp, even to the point where some businesspeople didn't want us buying their goods. And so that's been etched in my memory forever, the degree of hate the local people around these camps had against the people of Japanese ancestry was really bad. In a way, it was good, and that was my lesson I learned. I don't remember such signs in San Francisco of all places, but I remember them in Cody, Wyoming, that they did not want us. Now, I have to be accurate, though, that doesn't exist today. When we opened the learning center at Heart Mountain in 2011, I went downtown Cody and every store window had a sign, "Welcome, Japanese Americans." Amazing change of the people of Cody. But yeah, that's what happened, I'll never forget what happened way back in 1944, '45 when I went to downtown Cody.

<Begin Segment 15>

BN: So let's now go to Salt Lake City. Do you remember how you left the camp in terms of packing up your belongings and that sort of thing?

SM: Well, I just remember packing the suitcases that we brought with us, getting on the bus to take us to Salt Lake City, and then finally getting to Salt Lake City.

BN: Was it just the four of you?

SM: No, just the four of us initially. I don't recall if the grandparents came on the same bus, but I remember the four of us going.

BN: And then did you or your family know anything in Salt Lake City or were you just going kind of by yourself?

SM: My father knew some people in Salt Lake City. I don't know who it was, but he knew some people. It could have been the local minister, it could have been someone else, but they helped us find housing, helped us locate a business location to start up a store.

BN: What do you remember, or do you remember where you lived and what sort of...

SM: Yes, well, at the first, we relied on a local person to identify a place to stay, it was on the west side of town right on the railroad tracks. The railroad was passing right in front of our house, I'll never forget that. It was not a good part of town. And the neighbors hated our being there and made it clear that they didn't want us. And Mother couldn't take that harassment anymore, so we moved to a hotel room in downtown Salt Lake City, back to a single room, the entire family in a hotel room about a block from the store, and that's where we spent the rest of the time in Salt Lake City.

BN: Oh, wow. So you lived in that room almost like three years?

SM: Yes, almost... well, maybe about two years.

BN: Two, yeah. Wow. And then you mentioned your father started a bookstore. Was it catering mostly to other Japanese then?

SM: Oh, I think it was to almost anyone. It was these old Japanese magazines to people who were obviously interested in Japanese, and also some books and other things that relates to writing or reading. But I remember that we had, we also had some white customers who came in and bought some things, yeah.

BN: Now you're twelve, thirteen, were you helping with the business at all?

SM: Well, as much as I can. I didn't want to, I wanted to play with my friends. Went down to the church and met other friends after school. I remember my parents didn't like that because they wanted me to come back and work on the store. It was not an easy time for us, yeah.

BN: So you must have been in middle school at that point?

SM: I was in middle school, right. I would have been seventh, eighth, ninth grade-ish.

BN: What do you remember about the school situation?

SM: No, not much. It was a junior high school about a couple blocks from me, and no, I don't remember too much about it.

BN: Were there other Nisei kids there?

SM: There were very few. Some of the friends I developed there in Salt Lake City, they went to the same school.

<Begin Segment 16>

BN: And then you mentioned that after a while, your mother in particular really wanted to go back. So you were there for how long?

SM: Three years.

BN: And then you mentioned you were able to go back to the home?

SM: Yes.

BN: What did your father then do for a living once he returned?

SM: Well, my father, I have to give him a lot of credit. He used the skills that he had remaining short of being able to see. And what he did was he continued writing, he wrote many books. Finished the textbooks, finished the dictionary, started his travelogue and so forth. But he also knew that that wasn't enough income. So what he did was he created a school in our home. We had a big house in the back that was a very large room, almost like an auditorium size. And he converted that to a school, and what he did was he taught English for Japanese people who wanted to learn English. And one thing he did create was a school for war brides who had married occupation forces after the war and brought the wives back. And he found out these wives wanted two things: they wanted to learn English, and they wanted to get citizenship, they wanted to become a citizen of the U.S. So he created a special class for war brides to teach them the proper use of English. And also, he taught them how to pass an examination to become naturalized to be a U.S. citizen. And he wrote a book, How to Become an American Citizen in Japanese language. So that's how we made a living. He was always thinking about how to get income to help our family survive.

BN: It's actually pretty ingenious.

SM: Yes, you have to admit, he was always thinking about how to make a living and support the family with his handicap.

BN: Yes, when you think about it, that's a really... yeah, that's a really ready market that was necessary.

SM: He had a very unusual skill in that regard.

BN: Because of his English ability, too.

SM: Right.

BN: Wow.

SM: He was also, it turns out, he also realized the cost of living and the demand for places to stay. So he converted our house into a, he became a slumlord. He packed people in our house, all kinds of people. Our main living quarters on the second floor, for example, he converted the living room at the front into a dental office. And the dentist and his wife lived in the next room next to the living room, and that became the office and the living quarters for the dentist. And then I was on the third floor living with my grandparents, my father's side, and an aunt moved in, and then my parents were on the third floor. And on the first floor, he rented out to another family. We had a house packed with people, and I didn't realize at that time, but obviously he had a mortgage to serve and he wanted to make sure he did it right.

BN: Well, then also, housing was in really short supply.

SM: Housing was in short supply.

BN: Was this something that you only did after you moved back or even before you moved back?

SM: Oh, no, this happened after. Because before the war, you had the income, the means to be able to afford all that.

BN: I mean in the period when you were in Salt Lake City.

SM: Oh, in Salt Lake City.

BN: Was the house being used in that way?

SM: No, no, the house was our home, it was just four of us in a house.

BN: No, no, I mean when you were in Salt Lake City and your friends were looking after the house.

SM: Oh, back in San Francisco?

BN: Yes, was it being rented in that way?

SM: Oh, I don't know. I don't think so.

BN: So that only took place after you moved back to San Francisco?

SM: Yes, right.

BN: I was just wondering because housing was in such short supply right after the war, so there would have been a great demand for a big house like that. Again, that's an ingenious adaptation that your father came up with because there was such a demand for that.

<Begin Segment 17>

BN: And then you mentioned earlier you went to, I think it was Lick Wilmerding?

SM: Yes, high school.

BN: Was that a special high school?

SM: It was primarily a college prep school combined with a specialty trades type school and skills developed for, needed for certain trades, but it was mainly a college prep school.

BN: Right. And then did you know all along that you were definitely going to college?

SM: Well, I had a feeling that it was important. I remember my father giving me guidance that getting a good education is very important. No matter what field you choose, you got to get a good education. It happened to all of my friends. All of my friends had that same experience of their parents also giving them guidance, "You've got to get a good education." Many of my friends and I went to Berkeley as a result.

BN: And when you were in high school, did you already have a sense of what you wanted to do?

SM: I developed it in high school. I really enjoyed science and math, and that drew me into the engineering field that I chose. But it was a very good school in that regard.

BN: So when you entered Berkeley, you already kind of knew that you wanted to...

SM: Yes, I pretty much knew I wanted to stay in some technical field.

BN: Were your friends in high school some of the same friends from camp and from before the war? Or is it a new...

SM: No. They were from, most of them went to...

BN: Topaz.

SM: ...Topaz, but they were all from the same neighborhood. In fact, we used to commute in the same car to go to Berkeley, but it was all mostly friends from Japantown.

BN: And your friends were mostly Nisei, I assume.

SM: Yes, my age, yeah.

BN: Did you meet your wife, future wife at this point?

SM: That was about that time when I met her at the church, yeah.

BN: Okay. So at Berkeley, were you involved with any... I believe there was like a Nisei student organization and kind of a Nisei dorm, right?

SM: Right, right.

BN: Were you involved in one?

SM: Not really, because I lived at home and I wasn't interested in on-campus residences. No, we just stayed with our group, socialized with our group and going to school.

BN: Did you take part in any of the other college activities, football games and that type of thing?

SM: No, not really. I remember those years when I went, our teams did miserably. I had no interest in going to a losing game, so I really didn't do much in the way of those sports.

BN: And then were there particular professors or so on that had a big impact on you at Berkeley?

SM: Well, there were a few. In particular, I was a member of an engineering honor society and the faculty lead of that organization, Professor Joe Johnson, one day came up to me and said, "How would you like a job working for a very large aerospace company?" At that time it was called Douglas Aircraft, which was eventually bought up by Boeing. And I told him, "Yes, I'm interested." Says, "Well, I think you ought to interview with my brother." And so I went down and interviewed with his brother, Bob Johnson, Robert Johnson, and he made me an offer that I couldn't refuse, it was just unbelievable. It's peanuts today, but in those days, 1956, that was a lot of money. I remember like five hundred dollars a month or so. And I thought, my gosh, here, I'll take it. It was probably the best decision I've ever made, great career I had.

BN: You must have been an outstanding student.

SM: Well, I guess. [Laughs]

BN: So you were able to make that connection in school that led right to this first job. Douglas is down here?

SM: Douglas is in Santa Monica.

<Begin Segment 18>

BN: So after you graduated... you graduated in what year?

SM: In '56.

BN: '56, and then you came down here?

SM: I got married and then I came down here.

BN: So your wife joined you. And where did you live then?

SM: I lived in a place called Mar Vista, right adjacent to Santa Monica.

BN: And then how long did you work at Douglas?

SM: Total time including Boeing was forty-two years.

BN: But you moved around to different places, correct?

SM: I started engineering in Santa Monica working on airplanes, worked on rockets. Then I went to their field station testing facility in New Mexico and we lived in a small town in New Mexico while I was there for four years helping develop the rockets. That was interesting because my mother-in-law advised my wife, "Don't go. Your skin's going to dry up, you're going to turn brown, don't go." But she said, "No, I got to go." It's a good thing, because she developed some very longtime friends in a small town.

BN: What was the town?

SM: Called Las Cruces, New Mexico.

BN: Okay. And then when were your kids born?

SM: One child was born in San Francisco in '57, and the other child was born at New Mexico in '61.

BN: And then from New Mexico you came back?

SM: I came back to Santa Monica, then to Culver City, we had another office in Culver City, they were there for a number of years. And then I went to, they asked me to go to Washington, D.C. to be head of their department in the Washington office working on the space program. So that was a really fascinating time of my career. My main objective was to learn how Washington works because we had so much business with the government. And I learned that it took quite a while.

<Begin Segment 19>

BN: Now, you started with Douglas and then you moved to Boeing?

SM: Well, Boeing bought them.

BN: Oh, now Douglas became part of Boeing, so you didn't leave anywhere, you just kind of became Boeing.

SM: Became Boeing.

BN: What were kind of the best things about the work you were doing in terms of just your own personal enjoyment or satisfaction?

SM: While at Boeing?

BN: Yes, what did you like about the job? Sounds like you really enjoyed it.

SM: Yes. Like many engineers, my main job was to solve problems. Rockets fail, airplanes fail, and analyzing it and trying to figure out what caused the failure, what design changes need to be made, that was my specialty in those days, and I enjoyed doing it. But I guess it was my interest and ability to communicate with people that drove me into the business side of the company, the marketing side, and to help develop new clients and keep programs sold. And I enjoyed doing that, I really enjoyed meeting people and conveying, helping them find the right products.

BN: Now, when you talk about rockets, of course, we get into the whole space race. So was the work you're doing tied to the space program, NASA stuff?

SM: Well, that was part of my job. I had other jobs, but NASA was one of my important clients, the Air Force was another important client. I remember meeting Dan Inouye when I was in Washington, and gathered for some social events. And I remember the first time I met Dan Inouye, and I had my speech planned, what to tell him and what to talk about my products. Went up to Dan and I said, "Dan, I'm Sam Mihara, Japanese American. Glad to meet you." And he asked, "Who do you work for?" I said, "Boeing." And before I could say anything, he says, "Sam, don't worry, your program is covered." [Laughs] He did my selling for me. He said, "Don't worry. I'm voting for your program, don't worry." Weird. That was the strangest meeting I had with Dan Inouye.

BN: Probably everyone that Dan meets is asking him for something, so he probably assumed that's what you were doing.

SM: Right, right. He looked at me and as soon as I said Boeing, "Sam, don't worry." But the other meeting I found was interesting. I met for the first time Norm Mineta, he was in Congress, it was in 1986, and he was working on the redress bill. And so we started talking about Heart Mountain, we talked about California, and then he started talking about what he's doing. And I said, "Can I do anything? Can I help?" and Norm said, "Yes." "You live in Orange County, California?" conservative part of the country. Contact your local congressman and point out the importance of redress. And so I did that, I went to the local congressman in Orange County. They had a staffer there in the office handling that kind of activity, I talked to him, and it worked out pretty well. And then I found out after the bill was signed in 1988, Norm sent me a copy of the bill with his autograph, nice touch. Says, "Thanks for your help, Norm Mineta." Very, very nice. No wonder he's a successful congressman. He knows how to take care of his constituents.

BN: Did you know him from before?

SM: I didn't know him before, no, no. I had no idea, I was just roaming the Congress looking for Japanese Americans who were pretty rare. But I found out Norm was there, and as I recall, he was on a... oh, he was representing San Jose.

BN: San Jose, yeah. No, I meant at Heart Mountain.

SM: I didn't know he was at Heart Mountain until we talked about camp, and then I told him the camp and he said, "I was at Heart Mountain," said, "So was I," that's how we communicated.

BN: He's a couple years older than you.

SM: Yes, I think about two years.

BN: Two years, but when you're kids, that's a lot.

SM: He was Boy Scout and I was a Cub Scout, yeah. And then you know the story, he met Alan Simpson and all that.

BN: Very well-known story.

SM: Yes.

<Begin Segment 20>

BN: When did you move to Huntington Beach?

SM: Well, we were in Santa Monica, and the company just won a new contract for NASA building one of the, the second stage of the rocket that went to the moon, Saturn, it's called the S-4-B stage. And the diameter of the Saturn is so big that there was no way to get the part of that rocket to the ocean at Santa Monica to appear to bring it around to Florida for launch. So we had to find a new place. And they looked at, the company looked at two places, one is near Santa Barbara, Oxnard area, and the other was in Huntington Beach. Because the government owned land and they had a port, so the company decided Huntington Beach, and that's where I moved, because the company decided to move us all, everybody that was working on the space program would go to Huntington Beach, that's all that happened.

BN: This must have been in the '60s.

SM: This is in 1972.

BN: Oh, '72.

SM: '72, '72.

BN: And was the stuff you were working on, could you talk about it or was it kind of top secret stuff?

SM: Some were classified, some were not. It was mostly having to do with, by that time it was mostly rockets, helping develop rockets and make sure they work.

BN: Was your being of Japanese descent ever an issue in that occupation?

SM: Not when I was there. In fact, I owe my thanks, a lot of us owe our thanks to the Blacks, way back before the war, and equal opportunity became the rule of the land. So it was during the Roosevelt administration, you know, of all people, the Roosevelt passed the requirement of equal opportunity. The same Roosevelt who signed Executive Order 9066, go figure that one out. Regardless, it was the Black initiative that resulted in the defense industries opening up the doors to Japanese and anyone, frankly. And really, we owe our thanks to those Blacks in those days who helped promote equal opportunity, that was very important.

BN: And then given... we'll get to your speaking in a little bit but given how active you became later in life, I'm curious, because one of the standard narratives of the Sansei is that the parents didn't tell them about camp. Did you tell your kids about your camp experience as they were growing up?

SM: Oh, yes. After I began my speaking career, I really wanted to make sure my kids and my grandkids knew. So they heard me talk, I took them to pilgrimages, I took them to...

BN: You're talking about before? Like in the '70s and '80s?

SM: No. In those days, I really didn't talk much about camp, I wasn't interested.

<Begin Segment 21>

BN: I wanted to ask you also about... because you've lived in Orange County for a long time. Did you enjoy living there? What were the positives and negatives as you saw it from living there, and I assume your kids largely grew up there. Or maybe, yeah, at least somewhat grew up there.

SM: We enjoyed living, have lived there for a very, very pleasurable time. We have great neighbors almost all the time, good neighborhood, people are friendly. But we really enjoyed living... it's a small house and not very large, it's on a golf course, and we happened to find it because I was commuting from San Fernando Valley to Huntington Beach, that was a difficult travel for six months until I finally figured I'm going to have to move. Started at the plant, and started driving around the plant until I found a neighborhood that I felt was reasonably close and comfortable when I found this neighborhood. This house was on a golf course. Just driving around the neighborhood, I noticed one fellow waiting outside his house. He was wearing a badge, you know, Boeing badge. So I stopped and I said, "How do you do," I work so-and-so, and I told him, "I'm looking for a house. Do you know anyone who might be interested in selling their house?" And he says, "Yes, me." [Laughs] "I'd like to sell my house. My family's growing, it's getting a little bit too big for us, for the house we have." And so I bought the house from him. We've lived there ever since. So it's been some fifty years in that same house.

BN: You mentioned it was on the golf course. Are you or were you golfers?

SM: The answer is no. [Laughs] We're not golfers. We love the scenery, we love having somebody else take care of the scene, but no, we're not golfers.

BN: Did you have other kinds of hobbies?

SM: Well, I enjoyed, outside of work, I enjoyed fishing a lot. Kind of crazy, but used to go to Alaska during the summers and Argentina and New Zealand in the winters, developed some friends doing that end enjoyed that kind of life. But otherwise, I was working full steam on my work at the Boeing company.

BN: And then you mentioned earlier meeting Norman Mineta and he got you kind of involved with redress. Did you have any interest or knowledge about that beforehand, and then what was your feeling about when President Redress signed the bill, and how did you feel about that?

SM: Well, I knew the bill was good, I knew it had the features that I was interested in. Apology and some money, I definitely felt it was appropriate. And I was fully supportive, and I'd do anything I could to help. And when Norm asked me, "Could you make contact with your local representative?" So I said sure, and that worked out real well.

BN: Did the representative eventually vote for the bill?

SM: Oh, I vaguely recall they eventually did, at least at the staff level. The staffer who was assigned to that bill, very, very sympathetic and agreed, so that worked out pretty well.

BN: Then let's see. You retired after how many years?

SM: Forty-two.

BN: And then what did you do after your retirement?

SM: Well, I was doing my own private business. I was doing consulting work working with other companies helping them in their activities, part time, and it was okay, it was interesting. The retirement program at Boeing was very good, so I didn't feel I had to get another job. I didn't have to work if I didn't want to. So things were coming along pretty well.

<Begin Segment 22>

BN: So how did you start this speaking program that you've become so well-known for?

SM: Yes, that's probably one of the most interesting milestones in my life. I got a call from the people at Heart Mountain. It was in the year 2011, the year that we dedicated the new facility in Heart Mountain. And the call went something like this: we had a request from the Department of Justice, they were holding a conference of lawyers in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and they're looking for a speaker who was in the camp and could talk about what it was like in the camp. So I went... I said sure, I can talk, I can remember a lot of things. I was age nine through twelve, but I hesitated for a moment because it's going to cost money to get from L.A. to Cheyenne. And then the answer came back, "We'll cover all of your expenses." I said, "Okay, I'm your man." I showed up at this conference, it was on the top floor of a federal building in Cheyenne, Wyoming. And I went up to the top floor and I walked in, and there's a room about the size of this room, little bit bigger. And there were about a hundred attorneys in that room. And so I thought for a moment I'd better find out how much they know about what I'm going to talk about. So I started my speech with three questions. "First question, how many of you have heard about the removal of 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry forced into a prison?" A third of them raised their hand. The majority never heard of these camps, lawyers. Said, "Oh, interesting." The second question, "How many of you have heard the name Fred Korematsu?" There were three attorneys, young kids in the back of the room, raised their hand, ninety-seven percent never heard of Korematsu. Last question, "How many of you have heard the name Mitsuye Endo?" Nobody heard of her. And I thought, "This is easy. These people know almost nothing." So I went through my speech and got a nice ovation. Then I found out the lead attorney in that group got on his computer and sent a message to all fifty U.S. attorneys in the country and said, "You got to hear Sam talk." Then I wound up in Washington, D.C., I wound up in San Francisco, in DOJ offices around the country giving a speech. And they all enjoyed it.

Then I went to a teacher's conference and I gave a speech at a national teacher's conference of history teachers, and about a hundred teachers asked me to come to their schools and give a talk, and they all enjoyed it. So that kept on going and growing and as of last months, I have taught over (ninety-five) thousand people about something they knew very little about, and they all enjoyed it, every one of them. And I'm continuing to do that. So I found a new career. I really enjoy doing what I'm doing, I donate all of my speaking fees, and it's really satisfying. It's something I enjoy doing that a lot of people will enjoy learning, and so that's why I'm doing what I'm doing now, really enjoy that very much.

BN: You've mentioned the Heart Mountain Foundation called you, were you already involved with them or did someone know you? How did they know who you were?

SM: I was not very deeply involved. I visited Heart Mountain before the call, they knew who I was. I went to a couple pilgrimages, I remember, so they knew me. And so out of the blue they called me and asked, so that worked out.

BN: So you've kept track of roughly how many people you've spoken to, do you know how many states you've been to or how many engagements you've done?

SM: Yes. I've been to forty-five states.

BN: Wow.

SM: And I'm working on the rest of them until the pandemic hit, and then I've got a couple of them that asked me to come, but the pandemic stopped me. But I'll get to all of them eventually.

BN: I'm sure you know this, but what are the five that you haven't been to?

SM: Well, I've not been to Idaho of all places. They asked me to come, and then the pandemic hit. I have not been to Rhode Island, I've not been to North Carolina. Let's see, I went to Atlanta, and those are some of the ones that stand out in my mind, I haven't been there. I'll get there eventually.

BN: Yes, yeah, okay.

SM: And I have not been to Hawaii. And so I've got to get to Hawaii someday.

BN: Maybe I can help you with that. [Laughs]

SM: I need some help, introduce me. I'd be happy to go to Hawaii. But I've done Europe, I've done France, I've done Spain, on the internet, I've done Japan, I've done Hong Kong.

<Begin Segment 23>

BN: Of all these speeches, what was one or what were some of the most memorable in your mind?

SM: Well, they're all memorable. The largest group I had was the small town in Las Cruces, New Mexico. I had a grant from New Mexico to go around the state giving a talk, and Las Cruces, there were over a thousand five hundred students and teachers and parents in an auditorium.

BN: Were there people you knew from back when you lived in...

SM: One of the teachers heard me before and asked me to come. So that was the largest. I've also done San Francisco, Lowell High School, they had about a thousand. The smallest group I've had was one person in Washington, D.C. A young lady in the Smithsonian when I was there, she found out I was in a camp so she wanted me to talk about it. But no, everyone's different, everyone's unique, everyone's memorable. The most meaningful probably were the law schools. I've done Harvard Law School three times, and I've been asked to come back again. So every third year, every new class, I speak. And similarly at Columbia Law School and I had a call the other day from Yale. So those people really could use the knowledge. A lot of those people don't know what happened. A lot of young kids at law schools don't know what happened.

BN: Do you still ask the questions about Korematsu and Endo?

SM: Yes, I do.

BN: And have the responses improved over time or is it the same?

SM: Well, that's a secret. I'm not going to... that's going to be embarrassing. I'm not suggesting that Harvard and Columbia have low grades, too, but let me tell you, they weren't the best scores I've had. [Laughs]

BN: In all of these speeches you've given, have you encountered, like, hostile audiences or people who didn't believe that this was wrong or that kind of thing?

SM: I can remember some hecklers. I could count 'em on one hand. One of 'em in a small town gave a speech after I finished. He started a speech about the brutality about the Japanese army in the Philippines, and he lost his brother. I couldn't turn him off, he was on this emotional kick of telling the audience the Japanese are no good. That was not easy. Oh, another one I remember, typical response, "retribution for Pearl Harbor." The most difficult heckler I had was a really senior attorney, a real senior attorney who tried to teach me that I need to understand the circumstances of 1942. When Pearl Harbor took place and the Japanese in this country clearly had loyalties to Japan, and you have to understand what the rest of us felt. Preaching to me, that was not good. Anyway, those were some outstanding examples of people who didn't agree with me. But I'm talking about maybe four or five people out of ninety thousand, I'll take that risk. That's good odds. But most people don't know.

BN: Do you have different presentations you do for different audiences, whether they're by age or by region?

SM: Absolutely. My first question to people who want to hear me is, "Who am I speaking to? What age group?" I have programs designed for fourth grades, middle school, high school, college, law schools, seniors, I tailor to the group and it works out pretty well.

BN: Do you do different presentations to a group in, say, California, where more people are likely to know about it versus in wherever, Nebraska, were fewer?

SM: Actually, not really much different. A lot of what I talk about is relatively new for anybody.

BN: Right, yeah.

SM: In fact, very few people know there were four out of the five generals in charge of the districts who said, "Don't do it." They didn't know that, they thought it was only DeWitt. They're correct, it was DeWitt, but they didn't know that four of the five said no, don't do it. So that was more, the interesting things I found from history that they didn't know about. So even the Japanese people who knew about what happened, I can tell them some things that they did not know about, which I think is quite important. Lot of people didn't know about there was a lack of adequate medical care in the camps, and I had to explain to them what happened to me.

BN: Yes, firsthand knowledge of that one.

SM: Yes, so that helps.

BN: You've been doing it for, like, what, twelve years now?

SM: Twelve years now.

BN: How has your presentation or your views evolved over time, or have they?

SM: Well, what happened was, I always have a Q&A, and I learn from the Q&A what they're interested in. And I keep a log of all these questions and answers, and I start to see certain patterns of the same questions. And so I tend to focus on those things that are of interest to a lot of people. For example, I started seeing people asking, "Was there any resistance to the camps?" So I built in the resister story at Heart Mountain as part of my story. Lot of people ask about, "How long did it take to 'assimilate,'" unquote, "after you got home?" And I have to explain to them that our parents taught us that you get a good education and you will be assimilated because you'll have a skill that's needed. These kinds of things that developed along the way is based on the questions, it worked out quite well. Even personal ones, what happened, "How did you find your wife?" "How did you decide on going into a speaking career?" These kinds of things I kind of worked into the program.

<Begin Segment 24>

BN: And then I wanted to mention, you received a couple of pretty prestigious awards for your speaking. Can you tell us about those?

SM: Well, the first one and probably the most important is an association of history teachers in the country, it's called National Council for History Education, NCHE. And I gave a couple of talks at their national conferences, and they gave me an award called the Paul Ganon prize. Paul Ganon was one of the founders of the organization. He was the creator of the history department at University of Massachusetts in Boston, and he created the prize and he started the funding for the prize money. And so every year they announced who was the prize winner. And they asked for nominations, so I just threw my name in the bucket, they asked what do I do? Most teachers talk about the specialty topic they teach. I said, "I don't do that. I teach to thousands of teachers, and here's what I do and here's what I've done." And so they selected me that one year, 2018. The other award was the JACL Biennium Award, and that was a very nice gesture, it was a staff under David Inoue who suggested it might be appropriate for me, and so we developed a summary of what I've done, and I was selected this year for the Biennium award and that worked out well. Real, real nice presentation at Las Vegas.

BN: And then what did you do during the pandemic when you couldn't do these live talks anymore?

SM: Oh, well, yeah, that's another interesting story. That's when virtual systems started really getting really into its peak, it was driven by the pandemic, became more and more popular. So I started finding out a lot of schools would like to have me, but they can't physically so can I do Zoom. And that's how I learned how to Zoom and all the forms of the same system. And that's when I learned how to do it virtually. And right now, I'm at about maybe eighty percent virtual and twenty percent in person. It's getting back more toward in person now with the problem starting to go away. So in two weeks I'll be in South Carolina, January I'll be in the Midwest, Chicago, then I'll be in Philadelphia, Washington, New York, I'll be all over the country. I enjoy it. In person really is more effective, I think. People tend to remember if I talk personally.

<Begin Segment 25>

BN: And then I wanted to ask you also about the, your work with the Heart Mountain Wyoming Foundation, because I know you actually were a board member, right?

SM: Yes. So I'm a member of the board. My main contribution is to do two things. One, I speak for board activities, including activities at Heart Mountain. So for example, during the summer when we have a real heavy tourist season and people coming in, I've been Zooming into their auditorium at Heart Mountain, which, by the way, they named after me, which was a very nice gesture. They're speaking at the Sam Mihara Theater. And we're just ending up our season for this year and done about forty of those sessions for visiting people who come And the other thing I do is I donate all of the speaking fees, I give all of them to the foundation, Mineta Simpson Foundation, and it helps build a new facility that we're working on, so I enjoy doing that.

BN: How often do you go to the site?

SM: To Heart Mountain?

BN: Heart Mountain, yeah.

SM: Usually about three times a year usually. This year it was four times, but usually it's about three.

BN: Have you visited the other WRA camp sites?

SM: Yes, I have, I've been to several. I've been to Manzanar, I've been to Tule Lake, and I've been to Topaz. I went to Lordsburg, my father-in-law was there, and many of the other places. But I haven't been to all of them.

BN: You mentioned you have five states you haven't been to. Do you have any other goals that you'd like to achieve?

SM: Well, I'm working on one right now which is really, really showing a lot of promise, and that is to educate the world. I found out that Encyclopedia Britannica, headquartered in Chicago, has an enormous audience. I mean I'm talking millions of people around the world, and it's all virtual, virtual now, they quit making the paper copies. And for interesting topics they create stories, so people can dial in a story. I'm in the process now of recording with them lessons. It's designed for age level, so in the catalog, say you're a middle school teacher, they look under middle school history, and they look for Japanese American incarceration and they find my story. And they can order it in one of fifty languages, and they can even order by chapters. I just finished a chapter on my father's blindness, a two-minute segment on how my father became blind. And so that's now available in their catalog, so that's the system that's going on. And I'm working with them to finish it up, the potential of reaching the world with billions of potential people. That would be a great achievement on my part, I feel comfortable getting to that kind of an audience. Never possible to do it as an individual, impossible.

BN: Right, yeah. You can only physically talk to so many people.

SM: I can do physically very limited, with the pandemic situation, very limited odds. So it works out well.

BN: That's great. So we're just about ready to wrap up, I think we're right on time. So just as a conclusion, how would you like to be remembered?

SM: Well, that's probably one of the more interesting questions I've ever had. Probably as an educator, I try to teach about what happened to me and to my fellow Japanese Americans, that it should never happen again to anyone. Just teaching that and getting people to recognize how can they make sure that it doesn't happen again to somebody else? Just knowing that is very, very helpful. That's what I want people to remember me as, an educator.

BN: Great, thank you so much, Sam.

SM: Thank you much.