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BN: So what I was going to do now is kind of look at the different aspects of this Honoululi project. Since we started talking about the land element first, kind of start there. So five years later after the call, you found the site. What was sort of the next key development in terms of the land side?

JK: Okay. I know... you know, we thought we knew where, we thought we'd rediscovered it, but it still needed the archaeological stamp of approval. And I know that one of the things we did was meet with the regional director, Frank Hayes, and he... I think he finally -- no, he visited later. I'm not sure the exact sequence, but I do know that... I think it was 2004, Gerald Takano, he was in charge, he and Diane Matsuda were in charge of the All-Camps conference agenda. And this was where that, the regional conference in Arkansas, and I got an invitation to speak about what was going on here. And so I asked Dennis Ogawa, "Could you go?" And he said sure. And so I told Gerald, "Yeah, Dennis Ogawa is going to speak for us." And he said, he wrote right back and he says, "No, you misunderstood my request." And I said, "Oh, what was your request?" And he said, "This is the theme of this conference, this All-Camps conference, is going to be grassroots community." And he says, "I want you to come, not Dennis." And I thought, "How can I disinvite Dennis? That's so rude." And so then I realized what he was wanting. Because he wanted the, Jimmy of the Tule Lake, that went door to door. And I said, "Oh, that's why you wanted." But so the way we figured it out was, I told Dennis, "Do you mind being a speaker within a speaker?" And he said, "No." And so I said, "Well, okay, they want this grassroots thing, so I'll do that part. But you're the beginning." I mean, he was one of the, again, one of the reasons why we pushed on this thing, because of his West Coast tours and stuff. "Could you come and be a speaker within my thing and talk about what you discovered when teaching your kids." So he said, "Yeah," and he did. I thought that was amazing. He came to be a speaker within a speaker, but that was better than disinviting him. And he's always good, he does that. So it was either there... yeah, I think it was there that Jeff Burton and Mary Farrell were sitting in on, and they heard that, heard about Hawaii and the rediscovery, and they had just finished their Confinement and Ethnicity book, and they knew that the part about Hawaii was very...

BN: Minimal.

JK: Minimal. And so he told me much later that they looked for a grant then, and so in 2006 they did come out to verify that indeed that site had, was most likely the internment camp site. And then while Jeff was here, he got Frank Hayes to come out and look, and they both agreed. And because it wasn't disturbed in any way, whereas Sand Island was really, it wasn't disturbed, they felt it was well worth archaeologically going nine yards. And that was that part.

BN: And then they did their archeological, first kind of survey of the site.

JK: Right. And they helped us get on the National Historic Register. And from then on, it took a little bit, quite a bit of momentum. And they agreed with UH West Oahu to do their field schools, and they very much involved JCCH. Because we found we had lots of volunteers that loved to clear, they didn't want to come out on tour, but they liked the idea of clearing, and they did come out. And Dennis brought in -- because he had the American Studies -- he brought in Bill Chapman, who was the historic preservation person, and Bill brought in Jim Bayman who was the anthropology... and then Jim said, "Could I help in any way?" And I said, "You know anybody at UH West Oahu?" He said, yeah, he knew Susan Falgout, who was anthropology. I said, "Could you invite her?" And Jim was a kind of humorous guy. He didn't tell her where she was going, and he chuckled when he told me, "You know what? She showed up in a dress and high heels." [Laughs] And I said, "You're naughty." But Jim was good in another way because the first time we took some of them down there, Monsanto was very, very leery. I mean, they wanted to be cooperative, and they were, from day one, they were. But they were very concerned about security because of Roundup and all that business. And so when they wanted to show the archaeologist what was down there, they brought in their head of security from headquarters in Kansas or someplace to watch over us to make sure we didn't do anything naughty. And that was amazing, because he literally followed me around, and I said, "What if I have to go to the bathroom?" [Laughs] But they were so leery of us. And so when we got out to the site by the aqueduct, Jim says to him, that guy, he says, "Oh, I want you to meet these two ladies, Betsy Young and Jane Kurahara. They're in charge." And at that point, Betsy burst into... she notices a tree and she says, "It's a sandalwood tree." And she's going on and on about sandalwood. And so that's his introduction to Betsy. And then we said we're going to go down in the aqueduct, and I looked down there and I said, "I don't know if I can make this," and they literally carried me down in there. And so after... that's when Jim told him, "These two ladies are in charge." [Laughs] So after that, he was relaxed. And then on the way out, he says, "You folks know the way out, you go." And so that's such a little thing, but it was a big thing. And that's the story I know kids would remember and say, "You know, even if I do some little thing, it might be a big, it might help."

BN: But yeah, that ends up totally disarming them.

JK: Yeah, totally disarming them.

BN: They're obviously not a threat.

JK: They're not a threat. These two ladies, my goodness.

BN: Just to back up one step, the significance of Monsanto's involvement, the first time you were up there, Campbell Estate is the owner, and then...

JK: Yeah, there's that puka.

BN: Yeah, that you covered, talked a little bit about the sale.

JK: Right. Campbell Estate at that point was moving forward. They wanted to sell the, I think it was forty-something thousand acres that James Campbell owned. And they were going to disperse the profits to the heirs, and so they were in the process of parceling it out and selling it off. And again, I'm sorry about serendipity, but what happened was when they were in this process, we were invited to Pacific Club for a Hawaii Confinement Sites Committee meeting. And while we were there, along comes Judith Flanders, who's a Campbell Estate heir, and Keola Lloyd who was working for Campbell Estate. "Oh, hi guys, what are you doing here?" We said, "Oh, come sit down." And so we kind of told them about what was going on and how the internment camp was down there. Turned out Judith was a very interested person in preservation. And so she kept asking all these questions. And then she finally turned to Keola Lloyd, who was her Campbell Estate liaison, and said, "Keola, you make sure that whoever buys that place knows that there is a group that is trying to preserve that internment camp site." He says, "Okay." And the very next day, I got a call from Keiloa saying, 'It's done, it's in there.'" And then shortly thereafter, Monsanto bought it. And one of the first things they did was they flew in their communications director from Maui to visit us at JCCH, and he came solely to reassure JCCH that they recognized that there was that site there and they were committed to conserving and preserving it. And they've been good to this day. If that isn't serendipity, I don't know what is. [Laughs] That's our joke.

BN: Okay, well, you may convince me yet.

<End Segment 18> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.