Densho Digital Repository - Helen T. Sasaki Interview

Densho Digital Repository
Densho Visual History Collection
Title: Helen T. Sasaki Interview
Narrator: Helen T. Sasaki
Interviewer: Patricia Wakida
Location: Emeryville, California
Date: April 7, 2022
Densho ID: ddr-densho-1000-505

<Begin Segment 1>

PW: All right. Today is April 7, 2022, we're in Emeryville, California. I'm Patricia Wakida, and I'm with Helen Yokoi Sasaki. Thank you so much for coming. So we'll start with some questions about your family and your parents' background. Let's start with when were you born and where were you born?

HS: I was born in Stockton, California. We lived in Linden, actually, which is outside of Stockton. But when my mother was just about ready to have me, we went to a midwife's home in the city of Stockton. And I was born on December 10, 1937.

PW: Was it a Japanese midwife?

HS: Yes, it was a Japanese midwife who did that for all the Japanese community members town, in Stockton, and those surrounding farm areas around Stockton.

PW: What was your full name that was given to you when you were born?

HS: It's Helen Toshiko Yokoi.

PW: And can you tell me what your parents' names were?

HS: My father's name was Frank Noriyasu Yokoi. My mother's is Yuki, her maiden name was Sato, and, of course, it was Yokoi when she was married.

PW: And do you know where your parents were born and roughly what year they were born?

HS: My father (did not know exactly) where, but he said (it was in) San Francisco, because his father used to work in the fields near Stockton and San Francisco. And when my grandmother was ready to give birth, they went somewhere in San Francisco. His birthday was January 27, 1913. My mother was actually born in Sacramento, and I'm not sure when her parents moved to Sacramento because they actually started in Japan. But my mother was born when they were in Sacramento, and they ran a manju shop. And her birthday was January 2, 1915.

<Begin Segment 2>

PW: Let's stay with your mom for a little, for a moment. So she was born in the United States, but her parents were born in Japan.

HS: Yes.

PW: Do you know which prefecture they came from?

HS: Yes. They were both... both grandparents were from Aichi-ken and near or in Nagoya.

PW: And do you know anything about your mom's parents, mom's family before they came to the United States?

HS: My grandfather, their name was Sato, as of course my mother was, I had heard that he was a youshi. So the Sato comes from my grandmother. And I don't know what his name was before he changed to Sato.

PW: Can you explain for people what youshi is?

HS: A youshi is someone who, many times a family has only girls. So when another family where they're going to be, if she's going to get married, they would ask a man who has already a brother, and their name is going to be perpetuated. They would ask him if he would change his name to the bride's name. And so that's why my mother's (last name) was Sato and she never changed it from Sato.

PW: Do you know what kind of work your mother, the Sato family did?

HS: My mother's father, I'm not sure whether it was, from the time they were young (...). But my mother, when we went to Japan for the first time (in the early 1950s), my mother's sisters (were living there) -- we visited my mother's family, but it was actually my mother's sister and her husband who ran a clock watch shop. He sold watches and clocks, and he also repaired them. And I don't know that it was my grandfather's business, I don't know that, but it was my auntie's and her husband's business.

<Begin Segment 3>

PW: And then let's go to your father's side. So your father, of course, his parents also came to the United States before him because he was born in San Francisco.

HS: Yes.

PW: Do you know anything about your father's side of the family?

HS: I just know that he's the only child. My grandfather was, he came as a farm laborer. And I don't know how my grandmother got here because she married my grandfather. And he was working in an area in what they called the Delta, which is outside of Stockton. There were many little small islands where farming was done. And the one that he was working on when my father was born was called Frank's Tract. And so my father was named Frank from the fact that he was working on Frank's Tract. But I'm afraid I don't know that history of why my grandmother would have come here to get married in a strange land. And so that happened, and eventually -- I don't know whether you want to go further -- but eventually they were able to buy, I guess from the money that my grandfather earned, and as I said, I don't know what my grandmother did during that time. He had enough money to buy property in Linden, California. And that property was under my father's name because the Japanese immigrants couldn't buy property or land. And so my father was born in 1913, my grandfather and grandmother only had the one child, and they had no others. Then my grandfather became, had a stroke when my father was very young yet. And so my father, at a young age, had to take care of the farm, take care of his parents and the farm. And so he had a rough life when he was young. And because he had no brothers or sisters, it was an isolated life. But of course he did go to school, so that's the way that he made friends. So he used to walk to school, which is about three miles away from his home, and walked back and forth from school in the elementary time.

And later on, way later on, I went to the same school my dad did. When we came back from camp, we went to the same school and it was called Delphi, D-E-L-P-H-I, Delphi school. He went on and went to Linden High School. But because of my grandfather's stroke, and it was just too hard for my grandmother to work by herself, he couldn't even finish high school. It said that, in his bio, that he graduated from Linden High School, but it's my understanding that he actually did not graduate, wasn't able to graduate from Linden High School. And so he worked hard all his life.

PW: He continued with farming even after...

HS: Yes.

PW: After he didn't finish high school?

HS: Yes, yes, he continued farming. Of course, that's the reason why he didn't finish high school is because they needed him on the farm. And at that time, they couldn't afford to do anything else. I don't know, as I said, they gathered the money just to get the farm and that was it.

PW: Do you know what they were growing?

HS: They were growing, they had (...) a fruit orchard. And I heard during the years that it had changed (...). The way I remember it, we had cherries and walnut trees on some of the property, which is about thirty acres. And the rest of the acreage that Dad had was used to plant row crops and was being sold. And he sold the harvest to wholesalers who would sell it to stores. And the crops included everything from tomatoes, onions, potatoes, spinach, and even asparagus. When asparagus came out, I thought, "What is that?" We'd never eaten asparagus before, and I didn't really like it even at that time, but now it's like, yeah, I like it. But yeah. So that's what my father did.

<Begin Segment 4>

PW: How did he meet your mother then?

HS: Hmm?

PW: How did he meet your mother?

HS: He met my mother not... of course, my mother was in Japan enjoying a very easy life. Because my mom says, I said, "What did you do during..." she said, "I went to school with my girlfriends and in the summer I would like to go shopping at Matsuzakaya," which is one of the very fancy Japanese department stores. So she had a very easy life not getting her hands dirty for any reason. And so you think, well, why would she come over here? But she had, she was born here in Sacramento, in California. So I think that her dream was that she was going to come over here and really enjoy a nice life over here. She didn't know what she was getting into. So it was kind of like a nakodo, which means there was a go-between. And so I'm not sure who the persons were, but they knew that there was a girl in Nagoya, Aichi, where my father's family's from Aichi-ken, too, and that he was looking for a bride because he wouldn't know how to go... he's never been on a date or had never met any girls or anything. So he needed help. And so somehow they approached both our... whether the in-between person approached them or my grandparents in Linden asked someone else if they could, if he could meet and possibly marry a girl from Japan. And so it was set up. And so after it was, then I heard that they exchanged pictures and they thought, well, it's okay. So my father went to Japan and they got married in Japan in 1937, January of 1937. And I was born in December of 1937, so started a family.

PW: Quick question going back to your mother again. I remember she was Kibei.

HS: Yes.

PW: What age did she go back to Japan after she was born?

HS: I think it was quite young because she didn't have any schooling over here. So that means that, I'm just guessing that it was probably around five or six years old. And she had an older sister, too, so she had two older sisters. So when she went back to Japan, of course, they went to school in Japan. So my mom was probably four, five or six, and they had an older sister, too. And the older sister actually stayed in Sacramento. And I don't know who she would have stayed with, because both grandparents went back to Japan. So I'm afraid that's kind of a blank, I should ask where my oldest auntie, who she lived with, because I know she lived in Sacramento and she lived in Stockton, too, that older sister.

PW: So but when your mother get married in Japan, to your father, she doesn't speak English yet, correct?

HS: No. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 5>

PW: So she comes to the United States.

HS: She doesn't speak English. My father's Japanese -- well, my grandparents spoke Japanese. So my grandmother and grandfather couldn't speak (English), but my father knew enough Japanese to get by, so they communicated in Japanese. But I heard that she was very, very lonely. That if she didn't live so far away from Japan, she would have left, she would have gone back to Japan. She had (some mention of that) before. Not only was it hard work, because she had to get her hands dirty because it was only my grandmother, my grandfather who was, had a stroke, and my father who ran the ranch. And you can't (afford to) hire people, so it was all done by your own selves. So my mom...

PW: She had the baby right away.

HS: Yeah. And she had babies right away, and we three sisters were, after I was born, the same years as they were married, my sister Florence was married just a year and three months after me. And then my sister Margaret was born a year and about six months after Florence. So my mom -- and my mom had a lot of work because, not only had work, but also take care of the kids. And I had heard, funny story was that because my mom had to work and my father, my grandfather had a stroke, his working was minimal. And do he would have to babysit me and me sitting in a crate, probably, something that resembled a little bed. And every time I cried, he'd tell me that he used to put his finger into a honey jar and put it in my mouth to keep me from crying or having a problem. So that's the way that it was at the farm when I was very young.

PW: That's Jiichan babysitting.

HS: Right.

PW: So I know you have siblings. Tell me again the names of all of your brothers and sisters and their birth order.

HS: Yes. My first sister is Florence Hideyo, and my third sister, the third girl, is Margaret Yuriko. And I have two younger brothers but they came a little later. They came after the war. So my brother Tom Kiyoshi was born in 1947 after we returned from camp. And then my youngest brother, Steve Katsumi, was born, I believe in (1953)... I believe it was in (1953) in Sacramento.

PW: What about Florence and Marge, when were they born?

HS: I'm sorry?

PW: What year was Florence born?

HS: Florence was born in March of 1939, and Margaret or Marge as we call her, was born in September, she was born September 6th of 1940. So we three did go to camp.

<Begin Segment 6>

PW: Do you remember the home in the neighborhood, where you were growing up in Linden on the ranch as you called it, can you remember anything about that?

HS: I remember it only because I don't have memory of before camp. I tried very hard to try to remember. But when we came back, it was as-is. So whatever was there when we came back is where we were living when I was born. And the house is still there to this day. There's another family that lives there, but it was intact when we got home. We were very fortunate because many people lost not only their homes, but they lost their furniture and their cars and everything because they had to rush off, they were sent to camp very quickly. But because we had, because it was in the country or on a farm, no one took it over. And as I said, everything was as-is. We had Italian neighbors that lived on both sides of us, each side of us. And they kind of looked after the farm. And even in the summertime -- I mean, not summertime but more like springtime, they would even send boxed cherries to us in camp, to camp. They were really nice. And we went to school with them, with these neighbors. So they were friends, not just neighbors. So that was something that was very pleasant, and we were happy about that. And the car, even the car, my father had bought a 1940 new Chrysler, very, very nice car. But that even had to stay, of course. And when we got back, he just got back to using the same 1940 Chrysler. So, as I said, we were one of the fortunate ones who didn't really lose anything of value during that time.

PW: Can you describe what your father was like? Just personality or what he looked like?

HS: Yeah, I think my father was a very handsome man. [Laughs] But he was very quiet, stoic, he didn't talk very much. My mother wasn't chatty, but between the two of them, she was the one that talked more. And he didn't want to scold us, so when he wanted to say something to us, he'd go through my mom and say, "Helen did something wrong," or, "Toshiko did something wrong, so you have to tell her that she must do better or she must change her ways." So my father never wanted to scold his children, and it was no spanking, nothing that would resemble physical or mental punishment.

PW: And what about your mother? Same thing?

HS: And my mother is, yeah, she was a gentle person, actually. She was told to do that, but she never did anything much, too. So I don't mean we got away with anything, we were good kids. So we never gave them grief, I guess.

PW: Well, at this time, because I'm still mentally in the prewar period, you're still very, very young children. She's got three little babies.

HS: Yes, that's right.

PW: And the baachan and jiichan, the grandparents.

HS: Who also lived, yes, with the four of us.

<Begin Segment 7>

PW: So in 1941, you were a very, very young child when December 7th happened and the United States entered the war. I'm sure that your family was in shock having to cope with this. Do you have any memories of that time?

HS: I wish I did. I wish I did, but I don't. I don't, because by then, I was born in '37 in December. So it was December of '41, wasn't it? What was that then, five years? I just don't remember. No, five years, four years. Yeah, I have no memory of Pearl Harbor or anything that my father or mother said or whether they were very alarmed or not. But it's funny that we did go to the Stockton County Fairgrounds, there was a county fairgrounds in Stockton. And so we first were sent there. It seems like I can smell the hay or the manure or something like that, because that kind of stays with me. But I don't recall the living conditions there, but I've heard that people used, put hay in bags, and we used to sleep on that.

I don't know how long we were there, but eventually, they decided to send us, who were in Stockton Assembly, they called it Stockton Assembly Center, they sent us to Rohwer, Arkansas. And my memory of that, I do remember that when we were taking the train, I do remember just a very slim memory of when we were going to Rohwer, Arkansas, way across or halfway across the country, that I remember that we went on a train and there were black curtains on the window. We couldn't even see out. So I don't even know whether my parents knew where we were going, but they tell us that we can bring one bag each or something like that, so I'm sure that my parents brought whatever they thought was necessary to wherever we were going to go.

PW: And your grandmother and grandfather Yokoi were also with you?

HS: Yes, yes. I don't even recall that, but yes, they were in camp, so they had to, also have been going... they were with us in camp. They were in the same barracks as us in Rohwer. So we took up, I don't know how many units there were, but my grandmother and grandfather and my parents and my, the three of us girls lived in whatever rooms they gave us.

PW: Any memories at all of Rohwer, Arkansas?

HS: Just the bits and pieces. I remember that we had neighbors that were across from us. That I remember, that we had neighbors, and I remember that we had friends. So went to school, and I see pictures, so that's why I know. I don't recall being, sitting in the school room being taught. But I know that I've seen a picture of our teacher and my classmates in photos that were taken. And I don't know who took them, whether it was my father... I think we couldn't have cameras, I heard, so I don't know where the photos came from, but I do have photos of camp, of the whole block. And my mother was involved in sewing, she was a seamstress, she learned to be a seamstress. So there's a picture of her, herself and other women who were in the sewing class. It's what I remember about camp, yeah. We just... I thought it was fun because of the friends I had. And I don't remember the mess halls because I know that we had to go into the mess hall, but I have heard that we were, we ate with kids rather than with our parents. And maybe it's because my mother probably had to work in the kitchen, you know, dishwashing or whatever had to be done. And we were too young to be by ourselves, so we probably sit with a bunch of kids and somebody else looked after us.

PW: And what about your father? Do you know if he worked, or did he have things he was involved in?

HS: My father was what they call a block manager. And so he was paid, I had heard that he was paid like sixteen dollars a month. And what he did as a block manager, I really do not know. I really do not know, but he was called a block manager. So somewhere historically I have a feeling that you could find out what they did. But he was a very capable person because when he lived on a farm, he was the one who did everything on the farm. So he could go anywhere and take care of things.

<Begin Segment 8>

PW: I understand that your father picked up a woodworking hobby.

HS: Oh, yeah, that's right. So that's something he could do, you know. It was great because he couldn't do anything like that when he was living on the farm, but yes, they would go out and find wood out on the outskirts of where we lived in camp. And he would... I don't know where he got the chisel and the... what is it? Not knife, but what did they, I don't know what they used to...

PW: To just carve?

HS: Yeah, to carve it. They would have, not a knife, but something. What do you think, you're an art person.

PW: Well, I don't know what exactly he was doing, but carving tools.

HS: Yeah, he would use something, hold it, it was something like a metal thing on it, and then he would just use a hammer, right. So that he would make very nice pieces of art, yeah.

PW: Were they like statues?

HS: No, it was actually something that he could put... what I remember is that he could put it on a wall. So it was a flat piece of wood, and he would bring it down to a flat piece of wood that he would chisel to make a picture of an owl. I remember the owl, and one was a fish? Yeah, I think my brother Tom still has something that my dad chiseled or made in camp. I don't know what other kinds of hobbies people had when they were in camp, because there's a lot of time to be, not wasted, but to do things. I think there was a... I didn't see, I don't remember seeing them, but I think they had vegetables grown on the outskirts for their own use at least. I don't know whether it was sold anywhere else, but they had that. And other things I remember about camp is that in the winter it was deathly cold, it was so, so cold. And I remember the icicles, I do have memories of icicles coming off the roof. And in the summertime I remember it was so humid and hot, mosquitoes around. Because I think they were saying it's a marshy area where we were living. So the weather was awful in those times, in the dead of summer and really bad part of winter. But you know, during spring and the fall it was fine. And another thing I remember is that there was a... they would allow people to get on a bus and go to some town nearby and buy things. You could go and buy things, trinkets or... my mom wanted to buy, whether it was candy or anything that she wanted to use, of course, they couldn't cook, but she would buy knickknacks from the store that they went to by bus. So for other memories of camp, I think of... I know there were guard towers and everything, but I never felt threatened.

We were just kids, and I know that one thing that I was so lonely, when we left camp and went back to Linden, I know I was so, so lonely, so I told my parents, "I want to go back to camp." It was miserable for me because of course I had my two sisters, but there were so many kids that we used to play with and went to school with. So it was very lonely for me, and I don't know how Florence and Marge felt, but I certainly felt that way.

<Begin Segment 9>

PW: Roughly how long did your family stay in Rohwer?

HS: Rohwer, we were there from, I think we were fairly early on, so it was, Pearl Harbor was 1941, December. So I'm sure that by the middle of 1942, I think we were already in Rohwer. Of course, went to the assembly center fairgrounds, we weren't there long. So certainly by the end of '42, we would have been in Rohwer. And we left Rohwer, well, after the war. The war ended in '45, I think, and so I think that was fairly soon afterwards that we came back to Linden, we went back to Linden so it would be the end of '45, maybe.

PW: And your baachan and jiichan were still okay?

HS: Yeah, they were okay. Yeah, my grandmother was tough, yes. My grandfather, because of his stroke, I would say he probably was not tough, but he managed to get around with a cane. So my picture of my grandfather always, is always with a cane, yeah. That's my picture of my grandfather always.

PW: So did you all go out at the same time or did your father leave early?

HS: Well, I don't know that, I don't know that. I don't remember the train ride back, I don't recall that. I remember the train ride going, but I don't remember the train ride back. During the time that we were in camp, they started releasing people earlier for either schooling or just because they had a family that may not have been on the West Coast, because the West Coast is where they tried to get people out. So if you had some uncle or aunt in Colorado, you might have been allowed to leave early to go there. But we, as I recall, we went back to Linden together. That's the way I remember it, yes. I mean, that's all I can say because I don't recall the train ride back, but I think we did.

PW: And when you got back to Linden, did your life pretty much resume as normal? Because you had a place to live, you knew what kind of work you would do.

HS: Right, right. Yeah, we... when we came back to Linden I was going to the same school my dad did, Delphi school. So I know that we used to... Florence and I, I remember Florence and I did bike to school for three miles. But Marge was on the back of my bike, and so I had to pump Marge to and from home to Delphi school. And one funny thing was that when it was raining, my mother would worry about us, she didn't want us to get all wet, you know. So she would bring the truck so we could put the bicycles on a truck and take us home. But we didn't trust my mother driving, so we told my mother, "Go home, go home, we're going to pump on the bikes and come home." [Laughs] So my poor mother comes out and at least that happened on one occasion, maybe more than once. But we told our mom, "We don't trust your driving," kawaisoni. So that's vivid in my mind about what happened with my mom and her driving. They didn't take... they didn't have DMV and you didn't get a license, right? So my father didn't either, but my father had been driving a car and tractors and all kinds of things on the farm, so he was fine.

PW: Describe your school to me.

HS: Delphi school?

PW: Yeah, Delphi school and who the students were.

HS: Delphi school was, as I said, about three miles away. It was a three-room school, and it had three levels. So I think it probably went from first to third and maybe third through fifth, maybe. I don't know. And then basically up to eighth grade. So I would say that our education was probably, I mean, I'm sure we had books and paper and pencils and all that, but can't say we probably had the best education possible when we were in Linden. And I would have eventually, we would have eventually ended up in high school like my dad did. But we moved to Sacramento, so I continued my own education at Lincoln elementary and Lincoln junior high school. And then in my, just following what I did, going to Lincoln junior high school, and then because of moving in Sacramento, went first to, the first year I went to, my first high school year was at Sacramento High School, and then I ended up, my last four, three years in McClatchy High School in Sacramento.

<Begin Segment 10>

PW: So what year did you guys move from Linden to Sacramento?

HS: From Linden to Sacramento, I think it was, my brother Steve was born in (1953), I think, and so we would have moved before he was born. So I would say that we probably moved in (1950) or so. I'm just guessing, I need to really go through my bio a little bit more, but I would say around ('50).

PW: And did they sell the farm then?

HS: Yes, he did. Yeah, he did sell the farm to a family, a Japanese American family. And they still have this... and that was way back when, you know, it seems like a hundred years ago, but not quite a hundred. And the same family still owns that cherry walnut orchard, and it ended up becoming cherries and walnuts. And he still has it. In fact, every year, we try to go back Linden and pick cherries from our farm that we lived in. And I haven't gone into the house because that's their own private house now, but it's the same house that we lived in.

PW: So in Sacramento, what was that environment like? Like did you go to the city area?

HS: Yes. When we moved to Sacramento, the reason we moved to Sacramento with my father -- and I don't know the details of it -- but he went to a partnership to buy a theater, a movie theater. And it was a three-way partnership, so my father had one-third of it. And because of that, we moved to Sacramento, but we lived in what we'd call a skid row area. It was not a very nice area. It was, we used to walk by people who were drunk on the sidewalk, but we just got used to it, it'd just kind of walk around them. And that was our, that's how it was when we lived in that area. But my father soon... we only lived there for about a year. And then when my father bought a home that was close to McClatchy High School, close to McClatchy High School. And so I ended up going to McClatchy High School, as did my sisters, and we went on from there. But from the education that we had when we were young, I ended up being the top student in McClatchy High School when I graduated, and so did Florence, I think, and Marge. So we did very well coming off the farm and going to a very good high school.

PW: Delphi was not so bad.

HS: Yeah, right.

<Begin Segment 11>

PW: I'm kind of curious about just your friends and what you guys did and what you did for fun.

HS: Well, in camp, we just, they had races, they had all kinds of things that they had for the kids. And you know, they were older, maybe teenagers or adults would do all kinds of things to keep us happy and busy. But when we went back to the farm, we didn't have friends, it was just the three of us. And so we could only do what we could... you know, we could do among the three of us. So we used to play jacks, you know jacks, you remember those? We used to play jacks and we did, played marbles maybe. We used to have a bathhouse, so we used to throw a ball that was like a dodgeball, and we used to throw it over the bathhouse. And if somebody wanted to... if I threw it over to Florence and she caught it, she could come around and throw it at me, and if she hits me, then she won. That kind of thing. And I can't remember any other games we played, but that's one thing that I do remember that we played as kids.

PW: Describe what a bathhouse experience would be like?

HS: Yeah, the bathhouse was really something. Because it's not fair, but I was the oldest child, oldest one. So we had a wooden bathtub with a wooden float that, with a metal bottom so that you warm up the water, and then you got the float that went down to the bottom to keep you from getting burned, and that was our bath. And so I was in charge of heating from underneath the bath water.

PW: How did you do that?

HS: I had to use whatever wood, paper, and then with the drier wood, and then I'd have to put small logs in to keep the, to warm up the bath water. And I had to make sure that it didn't get too hot, so I'd have to tend to that to make sure that I got the wood from under for making... because then I would have to add cold water and that would be a waste of water. So that was my one chore that I had when I was there, when we lived there.

PW: How did you get your water, too? Was this something that you had a spigot?

HS: I have a feeling that we did, because the water level had to be pretty high, so we must have had a hose or something to bring water from a certain source to get water into the bathtub. And in the same bathhouse, my mother had a washing machine. But she used to wash most of it in a large washtub with those wash, what do you call that? You know, where you had the metal...

PW: Washboard?

HS: Washboard, and she did most of the washing from that. But eventually -- and I don't know whether she used the, I don't recall her using the washing machine, but we had an old washing machine. And I know that when she washed, she would put it through the rollers to get it dry as possible and then hang it up. But yeah, that's what we had in the bathhouse, too. Not only the bath, but also the washing machine, which, as I said, I'm not sure whether she used it as a washing machine, but we used a roller to dry.

PW: You had to deal with the bath every single night?

HS: Yeah, I think so. That was a chore. It's not fair. [Laughs] Like I said, my sisters didn't have to do any of that.

PW: But that all changed when you moved to Sacramento?

HS: Yeah, right. And then we had an outhouse, we didn't have an indoor toilet. And once in a while we had to go, you know, at nighttime. And my sisters and I lived, we all were sleeping in the same room. So when one of us really wanted to go shi shi, we had to go outside. And whether it was cold or not, we'd have to run to the toilet. So we'd wake somebody up and say, "I have to go," and they'd get a flashlight and make sure that you got down and went to the bathroom. So that was our experience. That's not a pleasant experience, but that's what we did to go to the toilet.

<Begin Segment 12>

PW: Now in Sacramento again, your life is very different, you're in a city, your father, you have both the boys that are born now. Your family has a theater, so did you go to the movies a lot?

HS: Yes, yes.

PW: Tell me about that.

HS: That was really, what a difference, right? Yes. We got to see all kinds of movies, and it was like a... it wasn't a first run theater, so there was a change in the movies almost every other day. So we saw every... all kinds of movies. I don't know whether we got the best movies, but we did certainly see the Westerns, Hopalong Cassidy. There were a lot of... there were a lot of movies. Also on every Saturday, there would be an episode of the movie and then they'd keep you hanging, so you'd have to go back next Saturday to see what went on after that. That was kind of fun, you know, people, kids used to go to that. We had a soda fountain and a candy place where you sell candy. And we had a little soda fountain on the side so people could go in and buy milkshakes, or we were making frosty cones at that time, just had come out. So we were getting the cones and frosties would come out. So it was better than farm life.

PW: Did they ever show Japanese films?

HS: I don't think so. The Japanese shows used to, they used to show Japanese shows when a... there would be a man who would bring a huge roll of... at the Buddhist church in Sacramento, they used to show Japanese movies and they were very, very popular. And I think they used to show it almost every Saturday night. There would be a man who would go from here to Fresno, to San Francisco to show the same movie to the audience that would gather. And as I said, it was very popular. My mother-in-law used to say that somebody would call up and say, "So and so needs you at home," so she (as the minister's wife) would have to get her flashlight and look for the person to send him home. So there are little vignettes of things that happened in that time.

PW: Did your family go to the Buddhist Temple regularly?

HS: Yes, we did. I think I ended up becoming a dharma school teacher later on, and I remember the biggest thing that I remember about the church, it's not even about me. My grandfather, my grandmother and grandfather, when they moved to Sacramento, after the war, they didn't stay very long in Linden. They just moved to Sacramento, and they bought into a hotel that was actually upstairs, you had to go up the stairs because there were businesses below. And my grandfather pretty much stayed in his room all the time. But the one thing he did was, on Sundays, he would just trudge down the stairs with his cane and slowly walk all the way to the Buddhist Temple which was only a block, a block away, I think. It was only a block away, but I just remember him walking slowly to the church. So he would go to church every Sunday, and then he would go back, go up the stairs and back to his room, and that was his life.

PW: What was the name of the hotel? And then I also forgot to ask what's the name of the movie theater.

HS: Okay. The name of the hotel is Grand Hotel, Grand Hotel. And there was a grocery store under there, there was a drugstore under there, the business. And I can't recall, there was another business under there, too, but I can't recall what that third business was. We had, there was a doctor, a physician that also had a room in the hotel. And so if you wanted to see Dr. Ito, you'd have to go up and see him in one of the rooms, or maybe he had a double room in the hotel.

PW: And what about the theater?

HS: The theater? The theater's name is Lincoln Theater. And the three partners, you want the names of the partners?

PW: Yeah.

HS: And my father's cousin named Feb, F-E-B, Feb Yokoi. And the third partner is Soichi. Soichi Nakatani.

PW: And these were all kind of in the same, was this all kind of in Japantown part of Sacramento?

HS: Well, Mr. Nakatani, I don't know where he came into some money, but he lived actually in the white area, in the Land Park area. So he actually did not live in the, where most of us lived, in Japantown area. And Feb, where did Feb live? I just don't know. Feb's mother lived in the Grand Hotel. Feb's mother was one of the partners in the Grand Hotel, but Feb himself, I don't know where he lived. But Feb Yokoi was in the 442nd. He went to World War II and he was... he was really special. And when he came to visit us on the farm in Linden, we all looked up to him. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 13>

PW: So you had told me that your father went to Chicago between camp and sometime after the war. What happened?

HS: I don't know what prompted him to go, but as I said, he was a block manager and things were going fine with him. I don't know what prompted him to go, whether this offer came to people in the camp or whether he sought out something. What it was was that it was an electrical school where he could find out about becoming an electrician. Now, whether he did that to become an electrician in the camp or whether it was just a, he just wanted to know so that when he went back home he could take care of his own farm, but he did go to electrical school. And during that time it was nice because things were getting looser as he was allowed to get out of camp for that time. And then my mother and my two sisters even got to go and visit him in Chicago. And I don't know the length of time they were there, but they got to spend some time with Dad in Chicago. And I was really jealous because, of course, I had to stay home in camp. But yeah, that was something that he was able to do, and my sisters were able to do during the time we were in camp. So it had to be anywhere before 1945 when he left, so it was probably '44, sometime in maybe 1944 or early '45.

PW: So he went and was probably gone how long, do you think? A year?

HS: I don't think it was that long, but I don't recall when he went, and I don't recall him leaving and even coming back. So I would guess that at the most, it would have been... at the most it would have been a year and probably less.

PW: But then he came back and then you guys moved back to California together.

HS: Yes.

PW: I see.

HS: We did. We came back together with my grandparents, too.

PW: All right, just wanted to cover that story.

<Begin Segment 14>

PW: So let's go back to Sacramento, and you're high school age, there were now five children in the family. And I'm kind of curious to hear who your friends were at that time. Were they Japanese American mostly?

HS: Being at McClatchy, and they're all white people, basically they're all white people. So I was pretty isolated. I really didn't have any real good friends when I went to McClatchy. I don't recall anyone that was a good friend. So my friends were my sisters at home. So it was kind of sad, but that's just the way it was. And I'm not saying there was any blatant racism or anything like that, but I don't think they were, they sought to, they avoided me, but they never sought me. I was shy, so I wasn't going to go looking for someone to become friends with. And let's see, what else about that? I belonged to... the only club I belonged to was the CSF, which was the scholarship federation, but that's almost automatic that you joined that. And I didn't have any real interest in any particular area. I took typing just because it would be helpful, but I just took academic courses so that I could go to college. So it would be science, math, a language. I think I took Spanish and I think I even took a year of German just so that I would qualify to get into any college or university that I might be interested in.

PW: Meanwhile, your family, all the kids were growing up, and what were they like? What was it like at home?

HS: Well, for us it was pretty quiet. And so, but Marge is the one that was chatty and more fun-loving. But I don't recall incidents... [coughs] excuse me. I don't recall any incidents where we had a fun time or anything like that. We lived in the Japanese part of town, and then we went to McClatchy High School. We graduated from there. I think Marge was in the band, orchestra or band, she played bass, that she did. I think Florence did not do that, neither did I. So we didn't have any really extracurricular activities that I can remember.

PW: Did your family join in any of the Japanese American association groups or kenjinkai picnics?

HS: Yes. My parents were both from Aichi-ken, their parents. So I know we belonged to the Aichi Kenjinkai, and I'm almost positive that we would have had some type of get together like a, if not a picnic, it would be a dinner or something like that, to get together once a year. The Japanese American... we used to have once a year at Elk Grove Park, which is outside of Sacramento, we used to have a so-called picnic where you bring your obentos and sit out on the lawn and eat with friends or with family. And they used to have a contest for kids, races and things like that, for the children. And you'd get small prizes for winning or coming in second or third. So that was a fun time for us to be with other kids, but we weren't intimate with the families that I, with kids that I recall.

PW: How about Obon? Did you guys usually participate in Obon?

HS: Dance in Obon odori? Yes, so we did get together for a practice, and Obon odori, yes.

PW: Even the boys? Would they dance, too?

HS: [Laughs] Probably not. I think Tom and Steve did not, but we girls did. Because we had kimono from Japan, and my mother liked to dress us up, and we would go to practice and then Obon odori during the summer. Yes, that's right.

PW: Did your family celebrate Oshogatsu?

HS: Yes, my mother did the regular, the regular foods for Shogatsu, but most of us didn't like Japanese food. She did do that, the traditional stuff. We had mochi, put it up. We didn't make our own mochi, but we bought it and that was not too much. But my mother was fluent into flower arranging, so she would do that, what they call sho chiku bai, would be pine, bamboo, and what's the other? Plum blossom? Yeah, so she would do that, because my mom liked ikebana classes when we were in Sacramento. So when we went to Sacramento, it was, she bloomed because she liked gardening. My father liked gardening, too, but my mother especially liked gardening. They used to take trips out in the countryside, so she could get unusual plants just off the roadside that would be interesting for ikebana.

PW: What was the primary language you spoke at home?

HS: I think we spoke more Japanese than English. Well, especially because my mother was there. And my mother, actually, was ambitious, and she really wanted to learn English properly. So she did go to, she did take, actually, formal classes at the JAC to learn English properly. But it was just for a little while, maybe about a year or so. But she could understand everything. Replying back, we could understand Japanese, too, so I think, at least I spoke to my mother in Japanese. But my two younger brothers, they could hardly speak Japanese, so she'd speak English to them. My father, of course, he spoke English all the time.

<Begin Segment 15>

PW: So you graduate from McClatchy High School, sounds like you were doing very well academically. Did you work while you were still a student?

HS: I did work. I worked for the State of California, I worked for DMV, Department of Motor Vehicles. And it was just a very menial job, but I worked from five to ten o'clock.

PW: This is after school every day?

HS: Yes, after school, five to ten o'clock. And so it was... it was such an easy thing to do, we just had to type up envelopes because we were sending out warning letters to those who had three or more tickets. It was a nothing job, it was something that they needed, and then I could use the money. So that's what I did during my time at Sac State. So I went to Sac State. I really... I should have, I could have gone into any... at that time, anybody could get into Berkeley or, I don't know, Stanford, but pretty much any college. But I chose to stay in Sacramento State because I was kind of a quiet person and I didn't want go outside the family. So I ended up starting and finishing at Sac State. I had a science degree, but I had a minor in secondary teaching, and so I became a teacher.

PW: What year did you... first, let's say, what year did you graduate from McClatchy?

HS: I graduated in '55.

PW: And then did you immediately start at Sac State?

HS: I started immediately at Sac State. So I graduated in, what, '59? And then I went another year to get my teaching credential. So by 1960 I had gotten my education, I'd finished my education in 1960. So then I started teaching. It's funny, I went back to teaching, I started teaching at McClatchy. And so my colleagues... my teachers became my colleagues. [Laughs]

PW: Very interesting. Were you surprised when you got that job?

HS: It was not that hard, I think. Yeah, it was not that hard.

PW: And was McClatchy still predominately a white school?

HS: Yes. Yes, it was.

PW: Actually, I�m curious about Sacramento State, too. So was that also a very mixed school?

HS: Sac State was a mixed school, but I don't think that there were very many nationalities. I mean, I think Blacks and Latino people didn't really, not very many. The percentage of people who went to college was very little in those days. So I would say it's basically Asian and white that went to any college.

PW: Okay, and so what did you teach as a teacher at McClatchy?

HS: I was teaching biology and physiology. And that was just for a short time because I got married after... here I finished in, graduated '59, 1960, I got my teaching credential. So in '60, I guess at the... so I started teaching at McClatchy at the end of, at the beginning of the school year around the end of 1960. But I got married in 1962. So it was just a short time that I was teaching at McClatchy, maybe one full year maybe. And then it's that one full year. Anyway, after that, when we got married, either I... I don't know whether I asked or my husband asked or someone asked if I could teach at Edison High School. And Edison High School is a high school in Stockton that has a big minority population. And it was close to the church, and so they said, "Well, we don't have any science classes, but do you think you can teach math?" I said, "Well, I didn't really take math in college, but I think I can stay ahead of the kids with general math."

PW: What grade was this, then?

HS: It was in high school, so it would be ninth, tenth, eleventh, twelfth. I don't know whether it was ninth, tenth or eleventh or twelfth, it was general math. And I don't recall whether I taught geometry, too. I think maybe I did teach geometry also.

PW: Did you enjoy being a teacher, both science and the math?

HS: Yeah, I did, yes. Yes, I did. So then what happened was the kids started coming, the babies started coming.

<Begin Segment 16>

PW: Well, let's back up and let's meet LaVerne first. Okay. So tell me, how did you meet your future husband?

HS: Well, that's interesting, too, because I think he was already a minister in Stockton, Stockton Buddhist Church. And you don't go around dating people, because everybody would know what you're doing. And so if he had interest, he'd have to tell his parents or tell someone that he's interested in someone. But I guess he didn't show any real interest in anybody in particular. So it was like a blind date. Because then I was single and available. So there was a, like a go-between, kind of, nakodo, they called it go-between. And they're the ones who suggested it, and I think his parents wanted it to happen, to at least meet, and my parents agreed. They asked me first. Said, "Here's this minister. Do you want to try?" Because they were worried, because what if it turned out all right, and here I end up marrying a minister, which is a very different life from most people. So I said, "Well, I don't mind meeting him and going out." And so that's how we got started, and I guess we liked each other enough, so it happened.

PW: You were teaching then at Edison in Stockton?

HS: Yes.

PW: Were you just commuting every day to go from your parents' home before you got married?

HS: Let's see now. I don't think I was commuting from Sacramento, was I? Funny, I'd have to think about that. At this point, I can't even figure it out.

PW: It was a short time, though, I understand.

HS: It was a short time, it was a short time, yes.

PW: Okay. So back up even more and tell me, so what is the name of your husband, and tell me a little bit about him from back then. So you learned through the families that there's a man who was interested in you. What was his name?

HS: Well, it's actually, he chose that name, LaVerne. But his real name on the birth certificate is Senyo Sasaki, and it's S-E-N-Y-O, it said 'W' on it, but he didn't want the W on it, so it's S-E-N-Y-O Sasaki, and he chose the name LaVerne. And I do not recall why he wanted to choose the word LaVerne, but that's his name, LaVerne Senyo Sasaki. And he was born on March 5, 1930. So he's almost eight years older than me.

PW: And he was born in California?

HS: He was born in... he was also born in Stockton, California, by the same midwife. His parents were, his father was a minister in Stockton Buddhist Church when he was born. So the same midwife that delivered me delivered LaVerne.

PW: And so when you were first introduced to each other, do you have any memory of meeting him and that whole first encounters? Because it was kind of a baishakunin arrangement?

HS: Yes, it was like a baishakunin arrangement, right. No, I can't remember where we went. If I could remember where we went, that would help. But I remember once, early on, that we went to San Francisco early on. And so, because I remember being in a car. And I think it was at that time he says, "Do you think?" By that time, I think that he liked me and I was fine with him, so he said, "Do you think we can make a go out of it?" "Go out of it," or something like that, something to that effect. And I guess I said maybe so, maybe yes. So it happened fairly early on.

<Begin Segment 17>

PW: And where were you married, then?

HS: We were married at Stockton Buddhist Church where he was the minister, second minister there. There was another minister named Reverend Shibata, and it was, another little interesting aside is that right now, Reverend Shibata's granddaughter is the minister there in Stockton right now.

PW: That's Candy Shibata?

HS: Yes. And so anyway, we were married at the old Stockton Buddhist Church by the bishop, the person who was the bishop of the BCA, Buddhist Churches of America. His name was Shinsho Hanayama, Hanayama. And another interesting aside with that was Reverend Shinsho, or Bishop Shinsho Hanayama was one of LaVerne's teachers when he was in Japan and studying to become a minister. So I think he was happy to see him get married and also to preside at the wedding.

PW: You said that his father, LaVerne's father, had also been a minister at Stockton, is that correct?

HS: Yes.

PW: So there's a long lineage going.

HS: In Stockton, yes. And LaVerne's story is that, as far as the ministry is concerned, he is the twenty-sixth generation of the Sasakis from Japan. Because in Japan, the system is that a child, a boy follows his father's occupation, and the same goes for temples, too. So LaVerne is the twenty-sixth. And unfortunately in our family now, we don't have a twenty-seventh. [Laughs] Although Sharon is much more interested in, maybe not becoming a minister, but she's a minister's assistant in San Diego.

PW: That's close.

HS: That's as close as we got.

PW: That's very close. So this must have been a pretty exciting community wedding, then.

HS: Yeah, right. It was a big community wedding, yes. And only one person from each family was invited. Because you can't be... only the very close family members could be there. But outside of that, in the community, only grant, one person from each family was allowed to be, was allowed to come. And it's not just Stockton, but also Mountain View, because Mountain View was where his father was.

PW: Oh, so the father went from Stockton to Mountain View, right?

HS: The father went from... father went from... let's see, where was Father before we went to Mountain View? I don't know where his father was before he went to Mountain View.

PW: That's okay. But he was being assigned to different temples and moving around?

HS: Right. Well, that's what they did before, right, yes. Right.

PW: So, but it sounds like it was a very big wedding?

HS: Yes, it was.

PW: Many people?

HS: Yes, there were a lot of people. There were a lot of people, as I said, only one per family could come. And I know one of the things that happened during that time was that a very elderly man who lived in French Camp, which is outside of Stockton, painted every single chair white, white paint. And he was already elderly, but that he did, he took it on and painted every single chair before the wedding.

PW: That's a good story.

<Begin Segment 18>

PW: So after you were married, where did you live?

HS: We lived in the church. The church had an apartment above the church level, so you just had to climb the stairs to get up there.

PW: Did LaVerne prepare you at all for, okay, now you have the life of a major Buddhist family member?

HS: Yeah. Because my parents were members of the, at that time, they were members of the Sacramento Buddhist Church, they knew what a minister's... I mean, on the surface, they knew what ministers had to do. So it wasn't a big surprise or anything like that.

PW: And what did ministers have to do?

HS: Well, it's really to take care of visiting people, trying to visit all families, although sometimes it doesn't get done because there were other things. But they have dharma school prep, they have Makuragyo, which is pillow services. Many of them also teach Japanese school. They are supposed to (support) the different clubs or whatever it is that are part of the church.

PW: Like YBA?

HS: Yeah, they would be like an advisor to the YBA, (or any other young church group.) They don't have to show up at all the meetings (...).

PW: How did you feel about, like, again, this is postwar, how the community was feeling at that time?

HS: You mean, there was no vandalism or anything like that (postwar in Linden). You mean just because there might be prejudice? I don't recall any outward problems, either in Stockton or in (Sacramento). I don't recall any outward, there might have been resentment or hate or something like that, but nothing... this day and age, I think there was more things going on, anti-Asian or anti-Japanese, but at that time, I don't recall.

PW: I forgot to ask, what day did you get married?

HS: July 1, 1962.

PW: And then you moved into the apartment at the church.

HS: Yeah, above the church.

PW: And you said and then the babies. You started having babies. Can you tell me about, did you have children? How many and what were their names?

HS: Well, we ended up having five children. And their names are Brian, Brian Senshin, S-E-N-S-H-I-N. And then Sharon Hiromi, and third is Stanton, S-T-A-N-T-O-N, Senshu. And then Ellen Kyomi, K-Y-O-M-I. Not "Kiyomi" but Kyomi. And Rina's name was Rina Emi, or E-M-I. That's our five children.

PW: And were any of these children born when you were still in Stockton?

HS: Let's see, where was Brian... well, yes, because when we went to Mountain View, Rina was already about three or four months old.

PW: Oh, so all the children were born...

HS: In Stockton, yes, yes.

PW: And tell me what years they were born then.

HS: Brian was born in 1964, and then Sharon was born in '66. And Stanton was born in '68. And Ellen in '69, and Rina in 1970.

PW: It's like every year.

HS: [Laughs] Yeah, about every year and a half, yes.

PW: So were you still in the small apartment, or the apartment, I would say?

HS: (Yes.) When we were in Stockton... (we moved twice to accommodate our growing family). When we moved to Mountain View, (Rina) was a baby.

[Interruption]

PW: So you're saying that the youngest child Rina was still an infant when you moved to Mountain View?

HS: Yes, exactly.

<Begin Segment 19>

PW: Tell me about Mountain View. Why did you move to Mountain View?

HS: Well, one reason is that my husband used to go to Mountain View to help my (father-in-law) because he's Japanese-speaking. And he thought it would help... so he used to go once a month to Mountain View to conduct study class. Study class for those who were interested in furthering their study of Buddhism. And eventually, I don't know whether he was invited or whether he thought that maybe he wanted, LaVerne initiated moving to Mountain View to actually help his father to be his assistant, although he would take on a big job. But we ended up going to Mountain View because his father probably needed assistance. And he actually had, I think, a weak heart. He was shuffling when he was walking, he was not in good health. And so (he) especially wanted to help his dad (with) his father's failing health. He wanted to be with him. So I don't know whether he asked the Bishop or the BCA or how it got initiated that he (wished to move) to Mountain View, but that's how we finally ended up getting there.

PW: What was the living situation like for you once you got to Mountain View?

HS: Mountain View? Well, because we had a large family, five kids, there (was no place for us). My in-laws lived in a small house in the back part of, behind the temple (...). And there were no accommodations for us. We lived in a triplex unit, which could accommodate all five of the kids and us. So we lived there for about a year until they were able to construct a house on the church property that's there right now.

PW: Wow, so you had a lot of space there.

HS: Then we had lots of space. [Laughs]

PW: But you're also living in this temple with your in-laws, too.

HS: Yes. Not together, but yes, on the same grounds. We were living in the front area of the temple, and then they were living in the back area. So we weren't just always crossing each other's paths. So it was nice, there was some privacy for both them and us, too.

PW: So in a way, now you're double Sasaki, Buddhist Temple at Mountain View.

<Begin Segment 20>

PW: What were... I know you had the children, but did you have work that you had to do for the temple as well once you moved there?

HS: That's the one thing that was really good. My mother-in-law was always okusan. So I never had to do anything but raise the kids. So it really worked out well for myself, and my mother-in-law enjoyed it so much.

PW: Tell me more about her.

HS: Yeah. My father-in-law was otonashi, quiet. But my mother-in-law is the one that would have people over all the time. She'd be feeding them, she'd be playing mahjong with them, she'd just be sitting around talking to them. So she had a... it was a busy place at her house. So it gave us, we didn't have to deal with membership, because she dealt with the membership. And she had the best memory; she knew the telephone numbers of all... at least twenty of the board members, she knew it. That's how bright she was or how good her memory was. And people were scared of her. [Laughs]

PW: Why?

HS: Because she was a tough lady. [Laughs] And because I had the kids, I didn't have to deal with her too much.

PW: Well, describe to me more, like what would her other... besides the social part of it, were there other jobs that she was responsible for, being the wife of the head minister?

HS: Well, I think being the wife of the head minister, I think one of the jobs that we all did -- at least in those days, I think now other people do it. We had to arrange the flowers for the altar. We would do that for Sunday services, and then we would also do it when there were services; for memorial services for people because they would have flowers sent to the temple, and then we would have to arrange it. In this day and age, sometimes the florist would actually have it so that it's already arranged and you could just put it (eight into) those vases (...). In those days, we had to actually work on the arranging ourselves. And one of the things was that unless you had memorial services, the flowers, when they're just sitting in water, it starts smelling. So sometimes it would be two weeks when we wouldn't have any flowers for anything. So we'd have to wash off and (whatever necessary) to get the flowers looking decent for Sunday services. So that was part of our job as okusan. And other than that, I hardly did anything. So Baachan was very, very helpful to have her be there, because then I didn't. All my attention could be (on) the kids. And even when the kids started going to school, I could volunteer and help in the classroom if the teacher could use help or wanted help in the classroom. I liked that because I was trained to be a teacher, so it worked well. I don't know whether you heard, but she got hit by a car and died that way.

PW: I did not know.

HS: Oh, yeah. Well, when we were there, she used to go, used to be called Stierlin Road, it's called Shoreline Boulevard right now. But you'd have to cross from the church to a little island, and then you'd have to cross again, because there would be cars going towards the freeway and cars coming from the freeway. But she used to do that practically every day, she used to get her hair done, she used to go grocery shopping and whatever. And one time she was crossing, and I guess she wasn't careful, didn't see the car, got hit by a car. Fortunately, LaVerne was home, and he heard some commotion out front. And our house was fairly close to the street. And so he went out when it happened, he saw his mother there. So at first he said he saw her shoe there. Isn't that awful? So he's the one that saw his mom. So they got emergency (services who) brought her to a hospital. I was teaching; I was in the classroom, so LaVerne picked me up and we went to the hospital. So she died in the hospital.

PW: What year was this?

HS: That was... not too long after we moved there. Yeah, we moved there in 1971. No, no. You know what? Actually, his father died first. (His) mother died in (1985).

PW: So his father actually...

HS: Father died earlier, yeah. He's the one that had a stroke, and he died in a hospital. LaVerne went to Mountain View to help him because he was slow in getting around, and he died in, just a year after LaVerne got there, so it would be... what year was it now? We moved in (1971) when Rina was young. So he died in '72, I think. I think Jiichan died in 1972.

PW: And because LaVerne was his assistant minister, did he become head minister?

HS: Yes, yes. He became the minister, right, yes.

PW: Wow, okay. So a lot happened in a pretty short time.

HS: Yes, it did. Yes, it did.

PW: And then after your mother-in-law passed, that must have been very hard for the community.

HS: Uh-huh, right. They were saying something like, LaVerne says that when Mom died -- I don't know about when his Dad died, but when Mom died there were sixty ministers that came to the service. Sixty ministers. I mean, you don't even have that many ministers anymore. They came from all over because whenever any minister (visited the temple), it would be an open house to them. So she was an incredible woman. More so than my father-in-law, who was very quiet (when) people would come to the house and she'd be talking to them, and Dad would be in his easy chair sleeping, just like LaVerne does. [Laughs]

PW: What were their names, actually? What were your parent-in-law's names?

HS: Oh, Sensho, Sensho. (All the boys) have "Sen," sen (in their name) means "a thousand." "Sensho" means "a thousand elephants," but that was the father's name, Reverend Sensho Sasaki." And her name was Kinuko, Kinuko.

PW: Okay. So did things drastically change for you once, now that she's not taking care of the congregation?

HS: Right, yes. Well, by then, (...) I don't think they expected very much of me because I didn't do very much of anything. And so I was teaching dharma school. And I was involved in things that our kids were involved in. So I didn't really do anything much more, yeah. I just followed the kids to their basketball games. And by then, the congregation had grown, "grown" meaning that the younger kids, younger aged people were getting, growing up same as me and my children. So there was not much expected of me as was, let's say, when Kinuko was alive, because she was just a special person. And she did her thing and everyone appreciated what she did, but it wasn't expected of me.

<Begin Segment 21>

PW: Did you see many changes in the Japanese American community or the congregation itself? As, you know, you're moving into the '80s and...

HS: Right, right. I know it's one of the questions that you had mentioned before, but I think that they're more interested. It's interesting that... yeah, interesting thing. I think there's more interest in Buddhism in general right now. And not just in Jodo Shinshu, that's our sect, but in Buddhism in general. To me, (it's) a non-dogmatic religion. And I think that many people who are really thinking people, they don't want to just be told that it's... I shouldn't go against God, but God created you and judges you and all that. And I think in this day and age, it's more difficult to go with that. And so if they're searching for something else, then Buddhism is right there. And so there's more interest even if they don't go to church. They talk about the Middle Way and there's nothing you have to do to be a Buddhist. In fact, (there is a) saying there's 84,000 ways to enlightenment, and going with God (could be considered) one way. But yeah, in this country, I think Tibetan Buddhism is popular, of course, Zen, and Jodo Shinshu and Jodo Shu. I don't know about (other) churches that might be formally (here), but I think there were members or people who ascribed (or) are interested in different Buddhist...

PW: Well, Mountain View as a place totally exploded in population at the time that you have been there as well.

HS: That's true, that's right.

PW: Did that also affect the congregation and the church?

HS: I think it did, but it didn't explode. I don't think it exploded. You were right there, and we were in a very convenient place, but I don't think that we were going out to seek memberships. Our doors (were) always open, so we (would) never would turn anybody away.

PW: Oh, right. No, I meant that in a positive way. I meant that the population... Mountain View as a city grew so much, potentially, right?

HS: That's true, that's true.

PW: So I was wondering if that had effects.

HS: Yes, yes. Because even now, I don't think the membership is huge, you know. I think we're there for anybody who wants to walk in the door.

PW: Is it predominately Japanese American, or is it very mixed?

HS: I would say it's predominately Japanese American. But because there's mostly... or (marriages) outside of the Japanese American community, that it's (becoming) more mixed. But it is kind of interesting (that people are) turned off by religion, but they have other things to do on Sundays. [Laughs] You know, people go golfing or they want to go visit their friends in other towns and things like that. It isn't something people do. It's not something they feel they need (to do). And so I know in Mountain View, I get their newsletter, at least before the pandemic, they used to have gatherings on Thursdays where they would have (...) a social gathering. People would take turns bringing munchies and would learn things like, (...) they would learn (things like) line dancing, I heard. And I think (if there were some people who) knew craft, crocheting, or anything like that, they could learn from each other (...), more than (just) religious study classes. But I think that most churches have at least a study class where they want to go more in depth about the religion itself.

PW: Did Laverne stay at Mountain View for a very long time?

HS: He went to... he was transferred to San Francisco in 1990, I think. So we were very fortunate because from the time that we got (to Mountain View) in 1971 (...) 'til 1990, Rina got to go (...) through all her schooling (while in) Mountain View. From 1990 on, (he was assigned) to San Francisco (Buddhist Church where) he retired (in) year 2000 when he was seventy.

PW: And it was just you and LaVerne moved to San Francisco physically?

HS: We actually commuted from our place in San Bruno, and that's one of the... when you are negotiating with a new church, you could ask for, I mean, that's the time to ask for anything that you might want. And so we said instead of housing there and getting a housing allowance, could you give us the money that you would give us for that to help to pay for our mortgage payments? So it was nice because we were able to come up with a little help from my parents, the down payment for the house in San Bruno, and then we were able to use the (housing allowance from the San Francisco BC). So we ended up owning our home because otherwise we'd be homeless. And I know of ministers who are renting (a place to live after retirement). It's so expensive to live, especially in the Bay Area.

PW: So that was about 1990, when he was transferred to San Francisco, you guys (bought) the house.

HS: Yes, exactly, yes. And he formally retired in 2000.

PW: 2000.

HS: So we were there for ten years.

<Begin Segment 22>

PW: And you mentioned that your daughter, was it Sharon? Is now also involved with, pretty seriously involved with the Buddhist community?

HS: Well, she is in San Diego, she has, I think the reverend, the minister was there, who is now retired, encouraged her, encouraged anybody who wanted to, actually, and specifically pointing to Sharon, too, that you want to be a minister's assistant? You can learn more about Buddhism, and you can help. Because a minister's assistant is valuable nowadays because many churches do not have a minister. So minister's assistants are, if they get to a certain level, they can perform almost anything. She can't do a funeral or anything like that. To do that, she has to go further, go to Japan to get a different degree, but she started off as a minister's assistant then. So she was having to take classes and online, sometimes tests and things like that. So she seriously studied, so that's good. I'm happy that at least one of our children has decided to do that.

PW: So when the children were growing up, did you and LaVerne ever talk about camp? I know that you were both very, very young, of course. But their grandparents were part of that.

HS: Yeah, well, he was in Tule Lake, so he has... we haven't talked together privately about it a lot. But when they had these little pilgrimages that went to Tule Lake to see the sights and talk to people who have been in camp... I have never gone, but he's gone at least a couple of times.

PW: To Tule Lake?

HS: Yes, to Tule Lake for the reunions. And because I didn't go there, was not really interested, but when they went to Rohwer, then I wanted to go. So I have been to Rohwer a couple of times with my sisters on separate occasions.

PW: What was that like for you?

HS: Oh, we went to the site, and I don't recall, I don't recall the barracks and everything like that, because it's all down. But they have a monument there, and it makes me... my feelings are saddened. And it doesn't bring back memories so much as feelings of injustice and all that, it gives me those feelings when I get back there. And when I look out on the, what is there, I think there was cotton planted there at least one time when we went to visit. And I wish that I had, was old enough to remember. But it's just the cemetery there, that I see names of people who died there and the monuments that were old, that was set up when, actually, when we were there. Plus new monument there that shows, that is explaining a little bit about what was here at the time, and it's a new, it's a national park.

[Interruption]

PW: I know that you guys went to the Rohwer pilgrimage. You guys all went, with your daughters and their grandchildren, right.

HS: And you know, I mean, it's just interesting to go to Arkansas, anyway, but especially because we were in Rohwer. And we went to New Orleans and Little Rock.

PW: I have one final question, and it really is, reflecting back on just the whole wartime experience and how it affected your entire family. And I'm kind of curious, do you think that this has had, like any, affected your sense of being Japanese? Growing up, even though you were young, do you think that this had a big impact on you, how you think about being Japanese, how you raised your children as Japanese American?

HS: I think that because we're Japanese American, I like the kids to know, your children to know, and even the grandchildren to know about their background and their culture. So in that way, I encouraged them to study or reflect. If they can go, like with the JET program or any way that they can go to visit, I would encourage very much. And our relatives there are getting old, and they don't have youngsters. The ones we were closest to, they don't have youngsters where they can visit, so they would have go to as a tourist. But there is a group that is based in Los Angeles that brings, every year they've been doing that except for the pandemic. You would call it a grandparent tour, grandparent/grandchildren tour of Japan, and it would be a two-week period. And at that time, you could even visit afterwards, you can visit family if you want, or any extra places, and we used to do that. And I've been on that three times. And it's so nice because the hotels are set up. Because if you had to do that all on your own, it's a lot of work. But as I said, you have to pay a little extra, but it's a wonderful group. It's a Japanese American travel tour agency, and that's the best way to go.

PW: You have that connection.

HS: Yes, yes. And every year we (can) get where he's going to go this year next year. And he goes everywhere all over the world, Okinawa and South America, and not necessarily... and some going to the (Southern USA), like if you want to go to Georgia or East Coast. So it's a very nice travel firm that will pretty much take you anywhere... I don't know about Africa, but maybe even Africa.

PW: Is there anything else you want to share with me?

HS: No, but I really appreciate what you're doing, Patricia. I do appreciate what you're doing today. Because I think the stories should be told, not necessarily of me, but I know that I'm part of the story.

PW: Thank you so much.

HS: It's my pleasure, thank you.