Densho Digital Repository - Susumu Nakanishi Interview

Densho Digital Repository
Densho Visual History Collection
Title: Susumu Nakanishi Interview
Narrator: Susumu Nakanishi
Interviewers: Barbara Yasui (primary), Tom Ikeda (secondary)
Location: Seattle, Washington
Date: March 24, 2022
Densho ID: ddr-densho-1000-496

<Begin Segment 1>

BY: All right. So we are here today with Susumu Nakanishi. It's March 24, 2022, and we're doing this interview at the Lakeshore Retirement Community in Seattle, Washington. I'm Barbara Yasui, and also today with me is Tom Ikeda of Densho, and Dana Hoshide also is our videographer, also from Densho. So thank you so much for agreeing to this interview. We're going to start with just some background information about you. So can you tell me when and where you were born?

SN: I was born in Japan, September 10, 1926.

BY: Where in Japan?

SN: Hyogo, Japan, actually country, real country.

BY: Okay. And where is Hyogo in Japan? Where is that?

SN: Hyogo Prefecture includes the city of Kobe. So there's a big mountain before the city of Kobe, I'm the other side of the mountain, real country, where I was born.

BY: And what was the name that was given to you when you were born?

SN: Aino (village in Hyogo Prefecture).

BY: What was your name? What was the name that your parents gave to you when you were born? So what's your name?

SN: Susumu.

BY: Okay, Susumu Nakanishi.

SN: There's no middle name in Japan.

BY: Okay. Do you have a nickname? Do you have a nickname?

SN: My nickname is Professor. [Laughs]

BY: Can you tell us how you got that nickname?

SN: Well, when I went to college, professor ask question, nobody can answer, only me. So they named me as a professor. [Laughs]

TI: So your classmates gave you that nickname.

SN: Yes. Then they wanted me to put in the faculty.

BY: That's quite an honor. Well, we will get to more information about your schooling because it's an interesting story.

<Begin Segment 2>

BY: But I want to go back to talk a little bit more about your father and mother. So what was your father's name?

SN: Matsutaro.

BY: And where was he born?

SN: Aino, Hyogo Prefecture. My family's generations of farmer, so my father or grandfather all inherited the farm.

BY: And Aino is the name of the town?

SN: Town, yes, Aino.

BY: So your family lived there for many generations?

SN: Nakanishi family had the farm at Aino, yes.

BY: And what kind of farm was it?

SN: Mainly rice and wheat, so twice a year, rice and wheat. And also we had the forest, which produced mushrooms, matsutake mushroom.

BY: Right. So did your family just get the matsutake for themselves, or did they sell them?

SN: No, they sold.

BY: That's really interesting. At that time, was it common to find matsutake in the forest?

SN: Yes, way back. But recently, matsutake is scarce. But my family still pick up matsutake and sold, even ship to U.S.

TI: So I'm curious, how does the matsutake that your family pick in Japan, how does that compare with the matsutake in Seattle?

SN: Well, most of matsutake in Seattle comes from Canada, and some from Korea. And taste not much different, but the fragrant Japanese one is superior.

TI: Have you tried the ones, though, that were picked locally? Like from Mt. Rainier or the Cascades? Have you tried that yet?

SN: Yes. I ate the, like from Canada.

TI: Okay, so next year, I'm going to bring some.

BY: I mean, I think they have some, though, here at Lakeshore. A little bit, a little taste. Yeah, because we had a session on matsutake, so that's interesting. All right. So going back to your father, what was he like? What kind of a person was he?

SN: Well, how to say... but he's a very hard worker, and also very broad-minded. Because I went to college in Kyoto. Every time I go home I asked him for some money. [Laughs] He gave me money without any complaints or any question, so I could survive. So very generous, nice father.

BY: That's great. How about your mother? What was your mother's name and where was she from?

SN: Ju, J-U, Ju.

BY: Ju. What was her maiden name before she was married?

SN: Matsuda.

BY: Matsuda.

SN: Matsuda Ju.

BY: And where was she from?

SN: Same, farmer.

BY: From the same village?

SN: Matsuda family had their own farm, yes.

BY: Okay. And so how did your parents meet?

SN: I think arrangement, marriage, which is usually done in Japan. So some nakodo, go-between, introduce each other.

BY: So did the families know each other before your parents got married?

SN: I guess so.

BY: All right. [Laughs]

SN: I'm not so sure. [Laughs]

BY: Okay. And were your mother and father same age or was there a difference in their ages?

SN: I think about the same age. Five or seven years' difference, that's common.

BY: And what was your mother like?

SN: Oh, she's very, very nice. Hard worker, worked the farm, and we had a total of (seven) children, she raised all of us.

<Begin Segment 3>

BY: Okay, so can you tell me the names of your brothers and sisters?

SN: Sakuo, Hakuo, Susumu...

BY: Okay, so slow down. So Sakuo was...

SN: Eldest.

BY: Son?

SN: Yes.

BY: Okay. And next?

SN: And Hakuo is also my brother, then Susumu, then younger brother Masayuki, and sister (Shizuko), and another sister, Chizuko. Big family.

BY: So you had three brothers, is that right? Anyway, lots of brothers. You were the third son?

SN: Two elder brothers, yes, and one younger brother.

BY: Okay, great.

<Begin Segment 4>

BY: And I want to ask you a little bit about growing up in Aino, in Hyogo-ken. So describe your home there. What was your house like in the farm? What was it like?

SN: My family raised rice and wheat, and a few vegetables. And usually our area, which is Aino area, the rice is excellent and usually shipped for sake wine. So mostly rice for sake is more expensive, so we had the very nice rice for sake.

BY: And can you tell me about the house you grew up in? What was your house like?

SN: Well, the old house was a straw roof, and when my eldest brother Sakuo became a, well, village president, then the city representative and so forth, so he made, also built a new house. So I have a picture in my room, but real nice house.

BY: But the house you grew up in had a straw roof? It was an old-fashioned Japanese...

SN: Old house, not a new one. [Laughs]

BY: So when you were a child, what would you do on a typical day?

SN: Well, running around the farm and doing fishing. Just very normal country boys.

BY: Did you have to work in the fields, too, or not?

SN: Not much. [Laughs]

BY: Okay, all right.

<Begin Segment 5>

BY: So when did you start school? How old were you when you started school?

SN: After grade school I went to middle school.

BY: But how old were you when you first went to school?

SN: Eight years old.

BY: So school starts when you're eight years old?

SN: Yes, eight years old, everybody goes to grade school.

BY: Okay, for how many years?

SN: Six years of grade school. And then five years of middle school, and then college.

BY: Okay. And did everyone go to grade school?

SN: No. Only so-called middle class farmer could afford to send their children to middle school.

BY: What about grade school, though? Did everyone go to...

SN: Grade school everybody goes. No tuition, nothing.

BY: Okay. So tuition starts at middle school.

SN: Middle school you have to pay tuition, and some of the parents cannot afford to pay.

BY: So did all of your brothers and sisters go to middle school?

SN: Yes, fortunately. [Laughs]

BY: Okay. And how many went to college?

SN: I think myself and my sisters, so only three went to college.

BY: Okay. And for that, there was tuition?

SN: Yes.

BY: So did your parents pay the tuition?

SN: Yes.

BY: In your case, did you have other help besides tuition?

SN: Well, I had a scholarship, so I could afford to go to the graduate school. But most of the parents in Japan that time, even paying tuition for middle school, it's very difficult. So we had, I had seven kids at my age went to grade school. Only three went to middle school, and others just worked on the farm.

BY: So it was unusual for someone to go to college and then graduate school the way you did?

SN: Yes.

BY: So you must have been a very good student. Tell me about school. What was school like for you?

SN: Well, fortunately, I did very well, and I got a scholarship. But at the college, after the war, most of the high school students drafted to do farm and worked the farm, and they didn't study very much. So after the war I went to, back to the college, I had a full high school education. So professor's question, I was the only one -- [laughs] -- could answer.

<Begin Segment 6>

BY: And so because you were such a good student, how did that help you during the war?

SN: During the war, we had the special privilege positions which exempted from draft. And I was fortunately in that group. Therefore, after the war, most people draft at the farm, they didn't have any classes, and I had the very fortunate group, so always answered questions when professor asked. But most people who worked at the farm were drafted.

BY: So people were either in the military or working, but you were able to continue going to school during the war?

SN: Yes.

TI: Did very many of your classmates, did they go to the war? Did very many of them fight?

SN: Yes, yes. Actually, I have seven boys in my village, and all of them went to war. And one went to China and then became a prisoner or something and then came back later. But none of them died. But I was fortunate not going, well, so could continue study.

BY: So what about your brothers and sisters? What happened to them during the war? Particularly your older brothers.

SN: My eldest brother sent to China and then Philippines, and after the war became a prisoner in Philippines and came back I think a couple years after the war. And next, my brother was fortunate, he was drafted, but the neighbor communication school, he became a teacher there, so he didn't go to the war. And my youngest one was still too young to join the war, so I was lucky.

BY: It must have been so hard for your parents to... your oldest brother was a prisoner of war. Did they know what was happening to him, or did they...

SN: No. No communication whatsoever. So all of a sudden, one day, show up station, railway station, then came back home.

BY: Oh, my goodness. That must have been so hard for them. So what did your parents and your other siblings do during the war?

SN: During the war, everybody drafted to work, and there was a ration for the farmers, how much rice you donate the government and so forth. It's kind of rough because you work hard and got a certain crop of rice, about half, the government took it.

BY: So how did your family live during the war? Did they have enough food?

SN: Yeah, fortunately, they are farmers, so their own food, see. But the people in, living in cities really had a hard time. They have to live on rations and black market rice. Pretty messy.

BY: And you were going to school. So where were you going to school during the war?

SN: Kyoto.

BY: Oh, so you were in Kyoto. And what were living conditions like in Kyoto for you during the war?

SN: Again, very fortunately, I went to Doshisha University in Kyoto. And after the war, American missionary came and became a director of a dormitory. So I could live in that dormitory, only selected people, and I learned my English from my missionary. And then more chance to come over here, U.S.

BY: But before the war ended, during the war, before you moved to the dormitory, where did you live in Kyoto during the war and what were living conditions like then?

SN: Well, during, actually, I went to Kyoto after the war.

BY: Oh, okay, so during the war.

SN: Yeah. But I was in the country farm, so own produce, own food. So some people were real, had a hard time, black market, or they have to look around for something to eat and so forth.

<Begin Segment 7>

BY: So what year did you enter Doshisha?

SN: 1952.

BY: 1952, so after the war.

SN: After the war.

BY: And Doshisha is a Christian university, is that right?

SN: Yes.

BY: So did you grow up as a Christian?

SN: No, I was Buddhist. [Laughs] And at the Doshisha, I met the missionary, Reverend John Young, and I lived at the dormitory for two years, during time I was converted to Christianity. But most people were... my older brother and sister remained Buddhist.

BY: So tell me a little bit about Reverend John Young. It sounds like he was a big influence in your life. So tell me about him a little.

SN: Well, he was a missionary in Hawaii and saved many families during the war. And after the war, he was sent to Japan, to Doshisha, and become a director of a Hawaii dormitory. And only ten people were selected and lived there. So fortunately, I was chosen to be there, and I learned my English from Reverend Young. And Reverend Young retired and came to California. There's a missionary village there, so he died there.

BY: And what was he like?

SN: Oh, he was a big man. [Laughs] But he's very, very kind, and he know each one's, what kind of character this guy has, and accordingly, he helped us. And as I said, after he retired and came to California, missionary retirement house, then after his death, his grave is in Hawaii. I visit a couple times.

BY: So it sounds like he was very important to you.

SN: Yeah.

TI: So I have a question. When you were a schoolboy, before the war, what did you think your life was going to be? What did you think you would become when you were just like in grade school, like fourteen years old, fifteen years old? What did you want to become back then?

SN: Well, honestly, at grade school, I wasn't so sure what the future would be. So as a normal kid, just enjoyed school and friends and that's it, no future vision. But went to college, then I had some future ambitions.

TI: And was that future ambition in the sciences, do you think?

SN: Yes. Become a, as my nickname shows, professor. [Laughs] I wanted to be a college professor.

TI: But how about your parents? When you were a schoolboy, what do you think their hopes for you were?

SN: Well, I don't know if they had any idea. Probably hope for the best. But I went to the Doshisha and then got a scholarship from the U.S. and so forth. So I'm sure my parents didn't know what I would be.

BY: It sounds like they were very supportive of your education.

SN: Oh, yes.

BY: I want to ask you about one more thing while you're at Doshisha. I think you let it slip that you met your wife at Doshisha. Can you tell us about that? How did you meet your wife?

SN: Oh. I met my wife (Eiko) at Doshisha University. And there were only three girls, students, at that time, all boys and only three girls. Fortunately, I could get one of the three girls. [Laughs]

BY: Oh, okay. So I think you were good at something else besides just science. [Laughs]

SN: Well, my wife was a real nice lady.

BY: Okay. So you met her there, and then later, I'll ask you about how you convinced her to come to Chicago, but thank you for telling us about that.

<Begin Segment 8>

BY: So then after you finished Doshisha, you came to the U.S. So can you tell us about that? When was it and how did you get here, why did you come?

SN: Yeah. As I said, at the Doshisha University, I lived with Reverend Young in the dormitory, so I could handle English conversation pretty well. And then one company in Japan invited Dr. Zettlemoyer, who is a printing ink expert. So I was selected as an interpreter. So, well, this is not a laughing matter, because in Japan, everything is University of Tokyo is number one, or other private school is not very good. So one company son of a president, selected to be interpreter. So he said, oh, naturally, Tokyo, there is a man from Tokyo University graduate, he studied at Harvard and just came back. So he should be our interpreter, but he's a liberal arts major, a law major. So subject was chemistry, so he couldn't handle it. So fortunately I was picked up for the interpreter. So that made the connection with the U.S.

BY: So then what happened after that? How did you end up in the U.S.?

SN: Well, Professor Zettlemoyer of Lehigh University made a lecture about one month tour of Japan, I was interpreter. So after he went back to U.S., he recommended, he gave me a scholarship to Lehigh. Well, it was a tough, only hundred dollar scholarship, so hard to live, you know. [Laughs] Paid thirty dollars for my room rent, but in any case, I could survive. And then, fortunately, during the... then I went to the summer camp and met the person whose uncle is professor of the University of Chicago, so he introduced me to the University of Chicago. And there was a [inaudible], heard that Dr. Charles Huggins was looking for a research assistant, so I just get the job.

BY: I want to talk about that, but I want to back up a little bit to when you first came to the U.S. I'd like to know, first of all, how did you get to the U.S. and what was that like, that trip from Japan where you have lived all your life, to the U.S.? Can you talk about that?

SN: Good point. [Laughs] Well, as I said, it was Lehigh, Dr. Zettlemoyer gave a lecture in Japan, and he went back to the U.S. and they offered me a scholarship. But at that time, one dollar is three hundred sixty yen or something. So some ladies, they want to introduce me to a lady in Hawaii, and they gave me a scholarship for transportation. So I came to the Lehigh, and then after... well, Lehigh is hard, really hard. But after summer camp, I got the job in the University of Chicago.

BY: Can you tell us about your journey from Japan to Lehigh? Like how long did it take, did you come by boat or train? Can you talk about that?

SN: I took the President Cleveland boat, ship from Yokohama, went to Honolulu, and then San Francisco. Took fifteen days. And then another train, three nights -- two nights, three days, to Chicago. So a real long, long trip.

BY: And then from Chicago to Lehigh, how long was that?

SN: Oh, I'm sorry, I must have... correct, came to U.S. by boat, San Francisco, and then I went way down to the train by New York, and then Lehigh is in Pennsylvania. So took twenty days or something.

BY: About three weeks. And as you were traveling on the steamship and on the train, and seeing the United States for the first time, tell me about what was going through your mind? What did you observe, or what were you thinking?

SN: Well, I was... let's see, surprised at everything. How the people live, and let's see. First went to Lehigh, and I had a hard time because my scholarship was not very much. So I have to pay hundred dollars for room rent, and then only a few dollars left for meals. So Reverend Broadhead, of the Methodist Church, helped me, so I could survive. And then I got the University of Chicago scholarship. But still, compared with the wartime Japan, living in U.S. was a luxury.

<Begin Segment 9>

BY: So you, did you ever have any, or witness or experience any kind of discrimination? Because...

SN: Oh, yes.

BY: Can you tell us about that?

SN: First time I arrived Lehigh, which is in Pennsylvania, I went to get my hair cut. As soon as I went to the barbershop, of course, couple of white people there. And the barber said, told me, "I'm sorry, I get only my customers, so please find another place." So I went to the barber at the campus, so I could get my hair cut. So that's my surprise, you know, first discrimination.

BY: What other things were difficult for you to adjust to? For example, language or food? Were there other things that were difficult for you?

SN: Well, language, fortunately, I had lived at the Hawaii dormitory, and because of the reverend there, my conversation was okay. But the first year is a tough one, Lehigh. There was only hundred dollars scholarship, I must pay the room, and then I must still buy food and clothing. So next year, I went to University of Chicago and was okay.

BY: What did you think of American food? And you said you didn't have very much money, so what would you eat?

SN: [Laughs] I tried to get rice as much as I could.

BY: Could you find good rice?

SN: Oh, yes, I can order lunch, yeah. Without rice, hard to live.

TI: Yeah, I'm interested in how you came to, like, know Americans. And so thinking about when you were back in Japan during the war, what did you think Americans were going to be like?

SN: Well, we had a long education, "Americans are terrible," and all sorts of bad things. But I was surprised, they are very kind.

TI: And that's because you met with John Young, right? You got to know him. So your first real, kind of, I guess, connection with Americans was Mr. Young, John Young? And then you found another side. You saw him to be very kind.

SN: Yeah. I told you when I first came to Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Lehigh University, I went to the barber shop and the barber said, "Oh, I take only customers. Please find other place." That was the first discrimination.

TI: So you're getting, like, different experiences with Americans.

SN: Oh, yes.

TI: So how would you describe Americans? When you were a young student in Lehigh and University of Chicago, if someone from Japan said, "Susumu, what are Americans like?" How would you describe that?

SN: Well, my first experience at the barber shop is exception. Generally, Americans are very kind and very nice. So I didn't have any complaints. Let's see...

TI: Well, here's another question. Do you have any examples or stories of an American doing something kind for you? Especially when you were starting at Lehigh or University of Chicago, was there a story of someone helping you?

SN: Yeah. Well, as I told you, I came to Lehigh, and only one hundred dollar scholarship. And I must pay the room and not much money left for meals. And Reverend Broadhead of the Methodist Church there, invited me many, many times for actually feeding me. [Laughs] And all the church people are very kind. So I had a wonderful experience.

BY: So it sounds like you were fortunate to meet two ministers. So there was Reverend Young in Japan and then Reverend Broadhead and his wife, yeah. And so what did you think about that? Did you think, oh, all Americans are like this? Or you think, oh, these are Christian people?

SN: I think all Christian people in the U.S. are very, very kind and helpful.

<Begin Segment 10>

BY: Okay. So then you left Lehigh University, it sounds like it was challenging for you. You went to University of Chicago, so how was Chicago compared, and University of Chicago compared to Lehigh?

SN: Well, University of Chicago, they had the first class, top class professors and faculty. Fortunately, my professor, Charles Huggins, obtained the Nobel Prize, and there were lots of Nobel Prize winners as a professor. And I was lucky to work with the cancer research of the University of Chicago.

BY: So tell us a little about Dr. Huggins. So he was a Nobel Laureate, but he was also your mentor. He was your mentor. So tell us about him. What was he like, do you want to show the letter that he...

[Interruption]

BY: Okay. So you have a couple of items. Can you tell us what they are?

SN: Well, Professor Huggins...

BY: What is this?

TI: Yeah, explain what this letter is.

SN: When I went, I want to come back to the United States, Dr. Huggins gave a letter to the immigration office. He exaggerated, but I am the only person qualified. [Laughs]

TI: I'll read some of this. So this is from Professor Huggins, and he's listed as the Director of the Ben May Laboratory for Cancer Research. And this is a letter to the Immigration and Naturalization Services on July 29, 1958. And Professor Huggins said, "We have an urgent need, in connection with our cancer research program, for the services of Dr. Susumu Nakanishi. Dr. Nakanishi is a brilliant Japanese chemist, who is an expert in the synthesis of steroids, and area which is at the very center of the cancer problem." And then he goes on talking about how he worked with you and how you have a PhD degree at Kyoto University and how he would like to have you join him at the University of Chicago as a permanent member of the staff. And furthermore, he talked about how you won't displace any American citizens since you're a specialist in this field, and no other person in the world is available with your qualifications.

SN: [Laughs] Exaggerations.

TI: So it was a very, very, I think, important letter for the immigration to know that you need to come to the United States.

BY: So, and then what is the other thing that you have?

SN: Well, I have forty-four U.S. patents, and fifty-five publications. But one of my U.S. patents received the "most outstanding" U.S. patent.

BY: Do you want to read it?

TI: Yeah, so this is from the United States Patent Office dated, this one is August 13, 1991. And it's just, this one is just letting the... know that you were granted a patent. But I think you were telling me that this patent was viewed as, what, the most outstanding patent in this area for this year?

SN: Yes.

TI: So it was a very important acknowledgment, recognition.

SN: This is [inaudible] anti-cancer drug.

TI: And you said you have how many patents? You have forty...

SN: I have forty-four.

TI: Forty-four patents.

BY: Wow.

<Begin Segment 11>

BY: So I want, obviously you're a very accomplished and brilliant -- according to Dr. Huggins -- scientist. But I want to explore a little bit about what he was like. So can you tell us the story about when he told you to just sit on the lawn and think? Can you tell that story?

SN: About my wife?

BY: No, no, about Dr. Huggins and his story. He told you one time, "Just sit on the lawn and think." Can you tell us that story?

SN: Well, at the Ben May Laboratory for cancer research where Dr. Charles Huggins headed, I made, early 1950s, fluorinated steroid was a cancer cure, breast cancer, so I made a number of fluorinated steroid, which Dr. Huggins tested, and he received the Nobel Prize. But very fortunate to be working at the cancer research of University of Chicago, where I could publish so many papers and obtain the recognitions.

BY: So what was he like as a person? Aside from the fact that he was a famous scientist, Nobel Laureate, what was his personality like?

SN: He was rather strange. [Laughs]

BY: How so?

SN: Well, he liked some people, he disliked some people. But once he trusts you, he gave us the opportunity to do anything we'd like to research. So at that point he's a good leader. But not regular. [Laughs]

TI: Well, you told us a good story when you first met him. I think when you first got to the University of Chicago, he told you to go sit outside and just think. Do you remember that story?

SN: Yes.

TI: Yeah, tell me that story.

SN: Oh. When I went to University of Chicago, Dr. Charles Huggins meet me. But I went on Monday morning, he said, "I didn't see you yesterday. Where are you?" And, "Young man like you, not working seven days a week, you'll never make it." [Laughs]

TI: So he met you, was it like a Friday? Was it Friday he first met you? But didn't he tell you to kind of relax and just think? Like sit on the grass and just stare off into the...

SN: Yes. And at the same time, he said, "If you're stuck, research, go outside, lay down on the lawn and think about..." [Laughs]

TI: You told me, so that's what you did.

SN: Yes.

BN: And then he criticized you for doing that.

SN: Yes.

<Begin Segment 12>

BY: So I do want to ask you about how you got your wife to come to Chicago. So you now are in Chicago working at this cancer research lab, so were you writing letters or keeping in touch with your future wife? What happened? How did you get her to come to Chicago?

SN: She received a scholarship from University of Chicago Social Work. So I knew her at Doshisha, so as soon as she came, we got married.

BY: So did you have anything to do with her getting a scholarship at the social work?

SN: Oh, yes. [Laughs]

BY: Tell us about that.

SN: Well, there was a need of a social worker, and so I recommended a candidate for social work at the University of Chicago, so she came.

BY: I am so impressed at not only your luck, in that you met some really wonderful, important people, but also your skill or your ability to create opportunities for yourself and your wife. It's amazing. So did you get married in Chicago or did you go back...

SN: Yes.

BY: Okay, so she came?

SN: As soon as she came.

BY: Like that day? [Laughs] So where did you get married?

SN: '55.

BY: No, where? In a church?

SN: Southlawn Methodist Church where I attended every Sunday, and Reverend and Mrs. Jones kindly held the wedding for us, so that's where we got married.

BY: So tell about your early married life in Chicago. So now she came, you got married, so where did you live? Tell us about your early life together.

SN: We lived in the faculty apartment, which is not very expensive, so we could make our living there. Initially, there was a big building, and we had apartment. But when we got married, they kindly gave me a house, faculty house, paying about the same rent. So very, very lucky, yes.

BY: And so you were doing research at the lab, and she was working or teaching in the social work department?

SN: No Japanese allowed to work, even at the university. So she stayed home, I'm the only one earning.

BY: So after she got this, so she got a scholarship but then she didn't use it? I'm a little confused.

SN: Well, just social work, I don't know how much she got, not too much. So anyway, we had the university housing which isn't very expensive, so we could live there.

<Begin Segment 13>

BY: And then you had four children. Can you tell me their names and when they were born, about?

SN: Yes. Well, my first son, John, J-O-H-N, born in 1955. So one of my friends told me, "So quick." [Laughs] But anyway, '55 was John. And then Joy was a girl, and then Lisa, another girl, and David, he's the youngest. John is now retired in California, but he was a chemical engineer of the University of California. And then Joy is the Yale University social work, and Lisa was Northeastern University law school, so lawyer, and then David is the youngest, University of California social work. So all our kids received a graduate school degree, and Lisa got a PhD. So fortunately, they are doing well.

BY: So I want to ask you about raising children in the United States. So you and your wife grew up in Japan, and yet your children were born in the United States. So can you talk about the differences in raising children in Japan versus the U.S.? What's different or what's the same?

SN: Well, we didn't discuss much, because all our kids were born in the States and quite different from Japan.

BY: For example?

SN: Well, you have freedom of choice, whatever you want to do, or what you want to become. But in Japan, once you're born in farmer's home, you must be a farmer or a merchant, go with merchant, which is a big difference. But I think I took our kids once in Japan to show them to my parents, but that's all. Our kids may not remember the trip.

BY: So tell me about, were there differences in things like discipline? If your child does something bad in Japan versus U.S., how would you handle that? Or other things like activities that they wanted to do with their friends?

SN: Well, the kids has more freedom and more choice. In Japan, once you're born in farmer, you will be a farmer all your life, and no real choice. But here is whatever you want, you can do.

BY: What about, if one of your children did something bad, I mean, not terrible, but a little bit bad, what's the difference in the way children are disciplined in the United States from Japan? So what would happen if a child did something a little bit bad? What would happen in Japan, what would happen in the United States?

SN: Well, fortunately, our family didn't get any problem. [Laughs]

BY: They never did anything bad?

SN: No, fortunately.

BY: Okay. You also mentioned that, you said your children's way of thinking is different from yours. Can you give an example of how their way of thinking is different?

SN: Let's see. Numbers of things, but let's see. What is the big difference? Well, to respect the individual way of life, each one has their own choice, and not forced to, is a big difference. We never told our children what to do and so fortunately, went all right.

BY: So did you raise your children to be Japanese or to be American? Like did you celebrate Japanese holidays or American holidays? Did they... talk about that a little bit.

SN: Oh, we raised our kids Americans, so we never celebrate Japanese holidays, and gave them freedom, whatever you want to do, what they choose. So fortunately, my wife agreed, so more freedom.

BY: Did you speak Japanese at home or English?

SN: Not much.

BY: Not much what?

SN: Greetings and that's about it.

BY: Japanese?

SN: Yeah. But they chose their own, and my two boys in California went to the University of California and learned Japanese. And my two daughters, they speak a little bit, but not too much Japanese.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: Yeah, going back to Chicago and living there, during World War II, quite a few Japanese Americans moved to Chicago after they were in the World War II camps in America. Did you know very many Japanese Americans like Nisei in Chicago when you were there?

SN: I met Dr. Tashiro, who sponsored Niseis, bring to Chicago and helped them. So very fortunate, those Nisei in Chicago was, all of them, very nice. And I don't know too many Americans from other states.

TI: But then what did you think when you heard that Japanese Americans had to be put in camps during World War II? What did you think about that?

SN: Yeah, I heard that. Very sad, but most Japanese do not know. I met a person in Chicago who sponsored many Japanese to help, but frankly speaking, people in Japan do not know much about it.

TI: And did your family do much with other Japanese American families? Were there, like, they have the Japanese American Service Committee there and some Japanese American organizations. Did your family do anything with them?

SN: Not too much, but my daughter is very active JACL. My daughter Joy, that's the only one working and helping Japanese community. Others are not...

<Begin Segment 15>

BY: So after you had lived in Chicago for a while, you went back to Japan. So can you please tell about that? Why did you go back to Japan and what made you decide to go back to Japan?

SN: Well, I wanted to show our kids to my parents, that's the only reason. And I didn't stay there.

BY: I'm talking about when you went back and stayed by yourself. I don't remember what year it was, but you went back to, I think, Kyoto University.

TI: Yeah, it was when, I think you were with Pfizer, you were assigned to Japan.

SN: Yeah. I worked for Pfizer and then they needed somebody working with Japanese. So I went there, but wasn't very comfortable. I stayed in a little dormitory or house, went back and forth, so that was my mistake.

BY: Oh, okay. So how did you decide to leave your wife and family in the United States? Why did you decide to do that?

SN: Well, the job sound good, you know, administer Pfizer offices and plant. But when I went there, not very comfortable. Living alone is terrible. So was my mistake.

BY: Okay.

<Begin Segment 16>

BY: And so why didn't your wife and children come with you?

SN: Well, they visited, there was a chance they could stay half a year if they want. So one time, I invited them to go there, but they didn't like it. [Laughs] So getting the work, job in Japan from Pfizer was my mistake.

BY: Okay. So it sounds like, at that point is when Dr. Huggins wrote his letter, "please let him come back to the United States." Okay, so then you came back. And then after you came back, where did you live and what did you do?

SN: I lived in the, well, first, Connecticut, and then moved to the University Place, state of Washington. And because my daughter lived in Steilacoom.

BY: You also lived in Minneapolis, is that right?

SN: Yes.

BY: So you lived in Chicago, Minneapolis, Connecticut.

SN: Connecticut and then Washington.

BY: Okay. And you mentioned that you always lived in a Caucasian community, and so was that an intentional choice on your part or did it just happen?

SN: Just happened. But I didn't select a non-Japanese community, but all the housing and so forth provided for me. And so without choice, but...

BY: And what was that like for you and for your family, living in an almost-all Caucasian community?

SN: I didn't feel very strange.

BY: You did not? Okay.

SN: No. Because of my job, probably.

BY: And was it hard for you to fit in or for your children to fit in? Was it hard? Did you feel comfortable and welcomed in those places?

SN: Yeah, always welcomed, very nice, yes.

BY: So you never experienced any feelings of isolation or...

SN: No, only the one time at the barber shop.

BY: Oh, okay, yeah. And how about in your workplace?

SN: Oh, it was excellent.

BY: Okay, all right.

<Begin Segment 17>

BY: Okay. I was going to ask you, so you had a very successful career, you have many patents, many publications, you were mentored by a Nobel Laureate. What are you most proud of in your work?

SN: Well, I do research work as I'm most proud of.

[Interruption]

SN: I wrote a book called Fifty Years in United States, which received the Japanese Library Association recommended book. And this describes... all in Japanese. But this book describes all my experience in the U.S. See, it says I went to Doshisha, Lehigh, Chicago, General Mills, Pfizer, and so forth.

TI: So a question about this. When the Japanese read this, what was the most interesting or surprising thing that they said?

SN: I think they... but somehow they recognized the life in U.S., and therefore Japanese Library Association gave me a special recommendation, recommended book. I think I have... did I bring? No, I didn't bring the... I have my own translation if you want it.

BY: We have it, yeah, we read it.

TI: But I'm curious what the Japanese thought. So when a Japanese reads this and you talk with them, what do they say? Do they say, "Oh, this was interesting"? Why is it interesting to them?

SN: General impression is, "Very interesting." So I will show the translation.

BY: That's okay.

TI: But is there, like, one kind of story that the Japanese says, "Oh, I really like this story," that was interesting from the book?

SN: Well...

TI: Or do they tell you that they learned something about America that they didn't know because of the book?

SN: Well, I just described what I have done, but... hard to answer.

BY: So one of the interesting stories -- because I read the English translation -- is when you talk about the differences between working in the U.S. versus working in Japan. You talk about individual mindset versus group mindset, you talk about seniority in Japan versus merit in the United States. Can you talk a little bit about that, the differences in the workplace between Japan and the U.S.? How is it different?

SN: Well, Japanese work usually a group effort. On the other hand, U.S., individual, independent work. So that's the big difference. And Japanese evaluated as a group, on the other hand, U.S. individual. So that's the big difference.

BY: And which way do you think is best? What do you think? You've worked both in Japan and in the United States? So which way of working do you think is best?

SN: I think working in U.S., we have more freedom and more independence. Whereas working in Japan, you're kind of in a cage, certain atmosphere. So that's a big difference.

BY: So you've lived in the U.S. for over seventy years, a long time. So looking back on your life, how do you see, how has your life view or attitude changed as a result of living in the U.S.?

SN: I think life in U.S., much happier, and more freedom. In Japanese life, you are in a cage, some kind of cage. You have to follow the traditions and family atmosphere. So I just say I have much more freedom and better life here in the U.S.

BY: So how do you see the differences between a Japanese person like yourself, who has lived in the United States for a long time, versus a Japanese American like my father or Tom's father? Do you see any differences?

SN: Maybe. I have four kids all born in the U.S., and one is, Joy is very active JACL, besides a lawyer. And all of them are good education and good job. But I think those who live in America have more freedom and can express one's ideas. In Japan, more in a cage.

BY: But what about for you personally as a Japanese man versus someone like Tom's dad or my dad who are Japanese American, who went through wartime experience? What are the differences between someone like you and someone like them, do you think?

SN: Well, fortunately, I came after the war, and didn't get too much segregations and bad experience. So I heard and read lots of sad story of the Japanese Americans during the war, but I'm very fortunate. I don't feel any difference living in U.S. or in Japan.

<Begin Segment 18>

BY: So last question is, what advice or words of wisdom do you want to pass on to your grandchildren? You have several grandchildren. So looking back on your life, what words of advice would you give them?

SN: Freedom is the one. Think freely and do whatever you want to do, and that's the most important.

TI: Just one last question. So we didn't show this, this is a book of your papers.

SN: Yes, reprint of my publication.

TI: Yeah, so it's very impressive. There are many, many papers, and I'm curious, of all the work you did, was there anything that you're particularly proud of in terms of a paper or a discovery that you had? It, I think, talks about the Nobel Prize, but of all that work, I want to get a sense of your work.

SN: Well, this is the, I have fifty-five publications and forty-four U.S. patents. But as a chemist, you just keep going. [Laughs] That's about it.

TI: But was there something that you think you did that forwarded the science, that was important, when you think of all that work? Because there's a lot there, and you worked with all these really brilliant scientists. What was your contribution? What did you do that helped?

SN: My work, most of them, related to fluorinated steroidal hormones, or fluorinated organic compound. At the very beginning, in 1950s, I thought fluorinated steroid may cure cancer. So I started to synthesize fluorinated steroid, quite a few, which Dr. Huggins tested the Nobel Prize. But I think I still feel fluorinated organic compound is my most outstanding contribution.

TI: So would you say that, during this time, you were maybe the expert on the synthesis of fluorinated organic compounds?

SN: Yes.

TI: Like in the whole world, you were probably the best?

SN: Oh, yes. Because of the journals covers most of the American Chemical Society, but also some journal... I mean, English Chemical Society Journal.

TI: And today, are fluorinated organic compounds still in use, and what are some examples of fluorinated...

SN: I think even today, some of the fluorinated steroid are used for cancer drug. So not... [Laughs].

BY: Thank you so much. We're honored to interview you.

SN: Thank you for your time.

TI: Thank you.