<Begin Segment 17>

VY: I think you mentioned at one point, we were talking earlier about an interaction you had with someone, I think it was one of the people that was also cleaning the plane?

KI: Oh, yeah. Yeah, the issue of being a man, for a Japanese person, it's your character. It's not that you're big and brawny, but it's your character. Well, for many Americans, being masculine means being like John Wayne, low voice, muscles, that sort of thing. Well, one of the first thing that struck me is the guy said I'm effeminate. I said, "Gee, what do you mean?" He says, "You behave too refined," or something. And the issue for me about gender was never an issue. I always thought of myself as a male, but then again, growing up, I liked child's things. And being a child is like being a crybaby, somewhat behind. Oh, here, let me show you something. This is a teddy bear I got when I was seven. Still have it, I gave it to my daughter. And here is a picture of myself with the teddy bear.

VY: Wow.

KI: Now, you ask, what is the significance of this teddy bear? Well, when the guy called me effeminate and another time I went to Higo's Ten Cent -- I mean, the department store on Jackson, I went to buy a toy. And the clerk said, "Aren't you a little old for this toy?" And I said, "No, I want it." It was a little tin soldier with a drum. And I forgot how old I was, but what these objects sort of tell me is I was still a child-child, but in a body that was growing older. And in modern terms, when you talk about gender, I was probably a combination of a boy and a girl in terms, not of sexuality, but of my willingness to do things that younger people do or girls do. For example, I was dusting my house, vacuuming, and I have a picture of myself once with an apron and a broom, and with symbols is that I was a little bit, if not effeminate, not a hundred percent boy. I don't mean sexually, but in terms of what boys are supposed to do. Of course, I mowed lawns, too, but in a way, in my house, in many houses, there was a girl's work and a boy's work. Well, I did both.

VY: How about your brother? Did he do both?

KI: One brother. And his job was to fix cars and do other things.

VY: So he did more of the male thing? He was older, right?

KI: Yeah, he was much more male. I mean, he was, I would say, more progressed in terms of male-female relationships. He had all the attributes of a guy-guy. [Laughs]

VY: Well, I think you said before that you were very close to your mom. Was your brother also close to your mom or was he more close to...

KI: Not as close. You know, I was kind of like a mama's boy, I guess, in a manner of speaking. That's all besides being in the camps and all that. But part of it has to do with the way I responded to things. Like in camp when I was bullied, in retrospect, I have to say, I probably acted like a mama's boy. I had this.

VY: A teddy bear.

KI: You know, I don't think of myself as, let's say, a homosexual or in a sexual sense, but I don't think of myself as strictly male things. So, for example, in my marriage, I help my wife do all the stuff in the house, including vacuuming. In fact, I was better vacuumer than my wife. Wash dishes, help with the clothes. I hear people complain that they go to work, and the wife goes to work, but the wife has to do all the indoor stuff. Well, that wasn't me. So in terms of responding to things, I guess that was part of my character. [Laughs]

VY: Yeah, it seems like it was more just kind of who you were. I mean, it's probably a little bit of nature and nurture, right? But also you were receptive to that.

KI: Yeah.

VY: And these days that's appreciated. For a man to do more things that are often left to the women is definitely more appreciated, whereas, it sounds like, when you were growing up, it seemed more negative.

KI: Anyway, that resulted in... I think my mother wanted a daughter, but she got me. [Laughs] You know, not intentionally, but in fact...

VY: Do you think all of that influenced you throughout your life, your upbringing, and you're a little more introspective and a little more sensitive than maybe the average male, that sort of thing?

KI: Well, it did impact me that way, it's that there are women's point of view. And one of the things women are better at are emotions. Or one of the things in a male-female relationship is the woman oftentimes complains, "Can't we talk?" [Laughs] That sort of thing. And so, yeah, I talk with my wife. But that was, became part of the way I dealt with life. That takes us away a little bit from camp, but I figure part of it has to do with the way I was bullied.

VY: So you were saying before that the bullying was a way to toughen you up. Do you think it helped? Do you think it did that?

KI: Oh, yeah, because when I go to the doctor, I make sure I don't cry. I don't say ouch, or in the Japanese term, you don't say, "Itai, itai."

VY: So now you can be both, you can be tough and you could be sensitive.

KI: Yeah, I guess. Because I don't say, "Itai." [Laughs]

<End Segment 17> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.