Densho Digital Repository - Mary Kato - Frances Kajita Nishi Interview

Densho Digital Repository
Densho Visual History Collection
Title: Mary Kato - Frances Kajita Nishi Interview
Narrators: Mary Kato, Frances Kajita Nishi
Interviewers: Barbara Yasui (primary), Tom Ikeda (secondary)
Location: Seattle, Washington
Date: March 17, 2022
Densho ID: ddr-densho-1000-494

<Begin Segment 1>

BY: This interview is with Mary Kajita Kato and Frances Kajita Nishi. It's taking place on March 17, 2022, at the Lakeshore retirement community in Seattle, Washington. And I am Barbara Yasui, I will be conducting the interview with assistance from Tom Ikeda and Dana Hoshide, who is our videographer. So we're going to start with questions about your family and your parents, and I'm going to start with you, Mary. So can you please tell us when and where you were born?

MK: I was born in 1924 in Hood River, Oregon.

BY: And what was the full name given to you when you were born? What was your full name?

MK: Mary Miyoko.

BY: So Miyoko is your middle name. And Frances, so when and where were you born?

FN: I was born in Mosier, Oregon, February 24, 1934.

BY: And what was your full name given to you when you were born?

FN: Well, my full name was Tsuyako Kajita, but then later on in 1952, I got my name Frances, because all my life I was called Frances, but it was never on the birth certificate, so I'm Frances.

BY: So even when, before you officially had your name changed, you were called Frances?

FN: Yes.

BY: Okay.

FN: When I was born, some lady came and said, "She looks like a Frances," so that's how it stuck.

BY: Okay, great.

<Begin Segment 2>

BY: So, Mary, what was your paternal grandfather's name?

MK: Shinmatsu.

BY: Can you say that again? Shinmatsu? Where was he born?

MK: Hiroshima, Japan, Hiroshima-ken.

BY: And when did your grandfather come to the United States?

MK: He came when all the men from Japan started coming, when all the other Japanese men started coming.

BY: Okay. And what do you know about your grandfather's wives and children?

MK: When he came, he was a bachelor, you know. And all I know is later, he went back to Japan and got married. And he came back to America with his wife and did all kinds of work. But of course, mostly they were doing apple orchards and orchard work. So he and his wife worked around the orchards and they had quite a few kids. [Laughs] About ten.

BY: Frances, do you know your grandfather's first wife's name?

FN: No, I don't.

BY: And do you know how many kids they had?

FN: Well, like she said, he was married several times, so he had several children with different wives.

BY: Did he have more than two wives?

FN: I don't know.

BY: How many wives did your grandfather have, do you think?

TI: Do you know your grandfather's first wife's name?

MK: No, not really. No, I've forgotten.

TI: And then how many wives?

FN: At least he had two, because my father was the firstborn.

BY: Of the first wife?

FN: Uh-huh.

BY: Okay, so your father was the firstborn of your grandfather's first wife, okay.

MK: He had... my grandfather? Two.

BY: Okay, two. So, Frances, your father was the firstborn of your grandfather's first wife. Do you know if he had any brothers or sisters from...

FN: The first wife?

BY: Yeah.

FN: No, I don't think so. You can ask her, but...

BY: Okay.

TI: So how many children from the first wife?

BY: Yeah, we're just trying to understand the family tree here.

MK: Just my dad.

BY: Okay, all right, that's helpful. And then what happened to your grandfather's first wife?

MK: I don't know.

BY: And you don't know either?

FN: No.

BY: Okay. When did your grandfather marry his second wife? Do you know, Frances?

FN: No, I don't.

MK: When he came back to America, just before he came back, he had arranged marriage and got married. What was her name?

TI: Do you know the name of the second wife?

FN: The second? No, I don't.

TI: That's okay.

[Interruption]

BY: And there were at least two sons who lived with you in Mosier, right? Yoshimi and...

FN: Yeah, Kinichi.

BY: Right, and Yoshimi. So were they the children of your grandfather's second wife?

FN: Yes.

BY: But you think that there were a lot more children?

FN: Oh, yes.

BY: Okay. And how close in age were they to Mary, first of all, do you think? How much older were Kinichi and Yoshimi?

TI: What were their names again?

BY: Kinichi and Yoshimi.

MK: Quite a bit.

<Begin Segment 3>

BY: All right, let's move on. So, Mary, what was your father's name and where was he born?

MK: Hatsutaro.

BY: And where was he born?

MK: In Hiroshima-ken, Japan.

BY: And when and why did your father come to the U.S.?

MK: When Grandfather came first time, then he went back and came back and got my father. Because he finished school and was growing up, and so he came back with Grandfather.

BY: And what did he do?

MK: He stayed with Grandfather Shinmatsu and in Hood River, he did all those orchard kind of work, wherever there was a job, they did, so my father worked on an orchard, apple orchard.

BY: And Frances, do you know anything about your father's early life in the U.S.?

FN: No, not really.

BY: Okay, all right. And what was your father like?

MK: Well, I really don't know, but he liked to take pictures later on in life.

BY: How about Frances, what was your father like?

FN: My father was always like a little jokester, he always liked to be in front of the camera, I think. [Laughs]

BY: And he took picture, too, it sounds like?

FN: (Yes). I mean, every time there was a picnic or something, he would be right in the front row, you could see where he was.

BY: Anything else about him that stands out in your memory?

FN: Just that he was a hard worker.

BY: Okay, great. Okay, let's switch to your mother. What was your mother's name and where was she born?

MK: Kinuyo Sugita, she was born in Hiroshima-ken also.

BY: What kind of work did your mother's family do in Japan?

MK: I really don't remember.

BY: Okay, that's okay. And do you know, Frances, by any chance?

FN: Well, my uncle that we went to visit, he was retired by then, but then they had a farm raising rice and later bonsai trees and so forth. So I don't really know if that's what they started out with or not.

BY: But it sounds like they were farmers then, maybe.

FN: I think so.

BY: And do you know, did they live right in Hiroshima or outside of town?

FN: They didn't get the brunt of the atomic bomb, so they lived in the country.

BY: And how did your mother meet your father?

MK: Through an arranged marriage. Then later they were doing "picture bride," but I think theirs was an arranged marriage.

BY: Did your father, after he came to the United States, did he go back to Japan to marry your mother?

FN: Yes, he did.

BY: Okay. And so when did your mother come to the United States? Do you know, Frances?

FN: Well, I think probably after 1918.

BY: Okay. And what was your mother like?

MK: She was very gentle, worked hard. I thought she was a pretty lady. [Laughs]

BY: How about you, Frances? What was your mother like?

FN: Well, she was always kind. And she wasn't, you know, you knew when she was mad because she'll say, "Tsuya."

BY: Oh, she called you by your real name?

FN: (Yes), Tsuya. [Laughs]

BY: Do you have any stories about your mother that you could share with us?

FN: I can't remember too much.

BY: Okay, that's okay.

<Begin Segment 4>

BY: All right, we're going to move to talk about your, well, your brother. So, what are the names of your siblings, oldest to youngest with the age difference?

MK: Two siblings. My brother is four years younger than me and Frances, who is ten years younger than me.

BY: And Frances, what's your brother's name?

FN: Haruo Gus Kajita.

BY: Okay. And can you tell the story about how he got his name? You've told us about a doctor wanting to... anyway, the story of his name.

FN: Oh, how he got his name?

BY: Yeah.

FN: Well, the people that they were, he was working for at the Corps of Engineers couldn't pronounce Haruo or Habo, so they called him Gus. So that stuck as his name.

BY: So this was later.

FN: This was later.

BY: So there was a story that one of you told about how a doctor had wanted to name him Robert? Do you remember that story?

MK: My brother, he only had one name, Haruo, and the doctor, they asked the doctor about names and the doctor suggested some names and one of them was Robert. And Japanese have an accent, you know, and Mother said, "Rabbit? I don't want him to be named that, Rabbit." [Laughs] So he only had one name, Haruo.

BY: Thank you.

<Begin Segment 5>

BY: So we're going to talk about growing up in Mosier. So we understand that your family moved from Hood River to Mosier in 1925 when Mary was just a baby and Frances hadn't been born yet. Mary, what did your family do in Mosier?

MK: We moved to a Mosier apple orchard, farm, that was owned by Masuo Yasui of Hood River. And so we worked for them and their family. And then, as they said, everybody was raising apples then. But we started by doing the orchard first, and then later as apples were growing and apple orchards would have its day already. So we started raising asparagus, tomatoes, green beans, all the vegetable things that they trucked into Portland to sell at the market. That's what we were doing.

BY: And what do you remember about growing up in Mosier?

MK: I was born in Hood River, but before I was toddling, we moved to Mosier, so I was a real baby when I moved to Mosier.

BY: What do you remember about --

MK: So I grew up all the time in Mosier, Oregon, which was a little town about ten miles up Hood River. And so I went to school, began going to school in 1930 and in 1942 I was supposed to graduate, but we had to move because of the evacuation.

BY: So what do you remember about growing up in Mosier? What activities did you do?

MK: Well, I was growing up, so you know, I grew up all those school kids. In my grade, there was only twelve. [Laughs] So we were a small class. And we grew up doing mostly what kids do, you know.

BY: Frances, do you want to chime in here?

MK: I have to think about what I read...

BY: Well, first of all, tell about, for you, what was it like growing up in Mosier?

FN: When I was growing up, I remember --

MK: Did what most students, kids did, you know. We were farming, so we didn't get to go very many places. But mostly, yeah, 4-H club.

BY: Tell about that.

MK: Then we, for two weeks, we could go to Oregon State at 4-H summer school. So most of us at one time or another got to go Oregon State College for the 4-H club. And Wasco County was a big county, you know, where Mosier was, and when we used to have 4-H Wasco County meeting, we'd get on the bus and go to Wasco County and up on these... which is on the way.

BY: [Addressing TI] Ask her if she ever entered anything in the Wasco County Fair.

TI: At the what fair?

BY: Wasco County Fair. I'm thinking she was in 4-H, that they had a Wasco County Fair, that she was in 4-H, she must have entered something.

MK: Uh-huh, you know, like sewing club and cooking and all that. And so we actually did.

BY: Did you ever win a prize?

MK: Yes. [Laughs]

BY: For what? [Laughs]

MK: Everybody won something one time or another.

TI: Participation.

BY: All right, Frances. You were adding on to some things that you know that Mary did.

FN: Oh, I mean, since it was a small school, she participated in basketball. She was taking violin lessons and things like that.

<Begin Segment 6>

BY: Okay. And then so how about you? So you were ten years younger, so you were pretty young. So what did you remember about growing up?

FN: All I remember is that while my family was working, or my folks were working, they'd leave me alone in the house. And, you know, at a young age, you don't do that anymore. But I remember the hobos coming down the railroad track, and they'd come to the house and ask for something to eat. And I remember making them peanut butter sandwiches and giving it to them. In these days, you wouldn't be doing that to a complete stranger and opening up your house. And the parents would never think of leaving the children at home at that age by themselves. So that's what I remember.

BY: So did your parents know that that was happening and what did they think of that?

FN: I think they knew.

BY: And it was fine?

FN: (Yes). [Narr. note: Because it was the Depression time, all the U.S. was suffering. Hobos were young men going west, looking for jobs in the Golden West.]

BY: Interesting.

FN: I mean, everybody was trusting, I think, in those days.

BY: And do you remember anything else? Like where did you play or what kinds of things did you do?

FN: Well, while a lot of folks were working in the packing shed or something like that, I know I was with them. And it was hot, and so I'd be playing maybe in the car, in the pickup, or I'd be playing outside. Then one day I was playing with the wire that they used, and so I was bending the wires back and forth and it stuck in my eyes. And so they had to take me to Portland and had an operation on my eyes.

BY: Oh my goodness, how old were you, do you know?

FN: It probably was about seven or six.

BY: And did you have to stay in Portland for a while?

FN: Well, just after the surgery.

BY: But your eye was fine.

FN: Well, yes.

BY: Okay. And did you have playmates?

FN: (Yes), we had playmates around, but I don't recall playing with them too often.

BY: Who were they? Were they other families that lived there?

FN: Yes.

<Begin Segment 7>

BY: So talk a little bit about what you remember about the other families who lived there.

FN: Well, I think they're the same as the rest of us, they were working on the Yasui family farm, so they're all busy. So one family, the Nakamotos, they had quite a few children, but they managed. And all I could remember is, like everyone else, growing up without a bathroom or place you take a bath except in a tub.

MK: Yeah. We farmed with the Kanemasu family in Mosier, and then there were the, Mr. Yasui, another Yasui family and their partner, Takasugi. And then farther on up, there was a Nakamoto family. And the Nakamoto family had a lot of children, too, you know, eight or nine, I forgot. And the Kanemasu family had, Kingo, the oldest boy there, and Helen, and Dorothy. Then they were, Dorothy was Habo's age, and Helen was a couple years older than Dorothy. And Kingo was a year or so older than me. And then Mr. Kanemasu had two families. And the first one was Kazuo, and the second one was Wataru. And they were quite a bit, a few years older than Kingo. And they were busy playing basketball and all that. So Mr. Kanemasu got them a little coupe car. [Laughs] So I thought that was neat, so I was in the car every chance I got.

BY: Do you remember anything about those families?

FN: Well, I remember just when we were going to visit the Nakamoto family, for instance, we'd have to walk the railroad tracks to go see them because they were further down the road from us. That's about all I remember.

BY: Were any of the kids your age?

FN: Yes. Frieda Nakamoto was one day, well yeah, one day short of my birthday. So we were the same age. And then I know the youngest one was Ray, and the oldest one was a boy, so the in between were all girls.

BY: So do you remember playing with them?

FN: Yes.

BY: Describe your home in Mosier.

MK: It was way down by the lake there, and it used to be a pretty big house, you know. And it was nice, but it was more like a barn. [Laughs] Various parts, because we weren't that rich. We just moved in and barely had beds and cooking (pans).

BY: Frances, what do you remember about the house?

FN: All I can remember, I think for our water supply, we had a pump, hand pump that brought water into the house. And the stove was a wood stove to cook on. And remember, we had a kitchen and separate dining area and several bedrooms and living rooms, so I remember that. But other than that, I can't remember too much about the house.

BY: And you said there was no indoor plumbing or electricity?

FN: No. Well, plumbing, we had water, but we had to heat the water for baths and so forth. And then later on, Dad built one of those Japanese bathhouses outside, so we had a place to go and take our baths, so he'd heat the water by burning log woods underneath, and it boils the water. And he had little planks there, wooden planks so that we wouldn't get our feet burned, so we could step on it. So that was our bathtub that I remember.

BY: As a child, what were some of your responsibilities?

MK: I really didn't have too much responsibilities, I just played. [Laughs]

BY: But when you were older, did you have responsibilities?

MK: Well, we had to work on a little bit on the farm, you know, as we got older.

BY: What did you do?

MK: Picked tomatoes and green beans. We didn't have big responsibilities, we didn't have too big of responsibilities because we hired some, like some ladies to sort asparagus in the asparagus shed. So we're just kind of the outskirts and then taking care of Frances. [Laughs] And watching our older brother and all of us kids would play.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: I thought we'd just kind of have her walk through, like, breakfast and school.

MK: Oh, yes. We'd eat breakfast. We didn't have electricity then, so we had those little gas flames, propane, and so Mom would make us breakfast, like eggs, and then get us ready for school. And we met the school bus, oh, about a mile up the road where Mosier's highway connected with our ranch, so we we'd walk up to the highway and wait for the bus. And we were about the last ones to get on the bus, because the bus driver would go all around the back country of Mosier because there were a lot of orchards back there, too, you know. So then we'd get on the bus and go to school and study.

BY: And what did you do after school?

MK: As we grew up, we'd play baseball and basketball and all that, recess. Then when I got in high school, I got to be on the team. I wasn't very good, but I got on the team. And the rest of them were good, so we won a championship for Wasco County that year. But I was mostly a sub. [Laughs]

BY: That's fun that girls got to play basketball, that's pretty cool. So, Frances, what was, you must have just started school when the war came. So what do you remember about going to school or your activities?

FN: I don't remember too much about going to school. But I remember going out to meet the bus and Kingo Kanemasu would put me on his back and carry me up the hill to meet the bus. And I think when I talked to Homer Yasui, he said, "That was over a mile that you had to walk," and I says, "(Yes)." And so I think when I was young, I was too little to walk a mile.

BY: And Kingo Kanemasu was the son of one of the other families. How much older was he than you?

FN: Well, Kingo was probably eleven years older than me. Because my sister is ten years older than I am.

BY: So he didn't go to school then? Or why was he carrying you on his back to meet the school bus?

FN: Because he was going to school, too.

BY: Oh, I see. So he would just take you up there.

TI: He was an older student.

BY: I see, okay.

FN: So I couldn't walk too much longer, I guess.

BY: Oh, that was when you started school, he would take you on... okay, I understand. And we talked about your friends, but did you have any non-Japanese friends?

MK: Yes. School, classmates, people below us, because were all in that one room school, first grade through high school senior, twelve. And so, yes, 4-H club and all that, we'd go to your house for a meeting and all that.

BY: So talk about Japanese language school, undokai and sewing club.

MK: Oh, yes. We used to have Mr. Inoue, Isaac Inoue, as our Japanese teacher, but he was a Methodist minister who had come to America to try to get more education, to get a degree. He wanted to go to Yale, but no money. So anyhow, he took, teaching Japanese to the Hood River and come to Mosier to help us go to school. Then he'd teach us Japanese on Saturdays and some other weekdays that he'd come over and we'd study Japanese.

BY: And did you ever go to Japanese school?

MK: No, I didn't.

BY: Okay, you were too young. How about undokai? Do you remember undokai?

MK: Oh, yeah. There was a beach by us. We had a little lake there on the ranch, and right over the railroad track on the other side, there's the Columbia River, and so like Mr. Masuo Yasui would let us go to that beach to have the undokai, and we had races and all kind of fun things.

BY: Can you describe --

MK: It was right by our ranch, you know. So that's what we did, it's just fun.

BY: Frances, do you remember undokai at all?

FN: No. All I remember is a bunch of people and sliding down the sand dunes and everything like that.

BY: Now, were you the one who told the story about people swimming across the river?

FN: I did.

BY: Okay, tell that story.

FN: I really don't know who it was, and they did swim across the river, and had to come back, so that's about two miles that they had to swim.

BY: And did that happen at undokai or was that just something...

FN: I think it was at one of the...

BY: So let's talk a little bit about religion. Did your family practice any religion, and if so, what?

MK: Oh, we used to go to, Mr. Inoue was the Methodist minister. And so we used to go most Sundays, drive to Hood River to go to the... they had a Japanese meeting house built there. And so they'd have meetings or whenever they had Japanese gathering of some kind, you know, we'd go there. But then the folks, older folks, would have a Buddhist minister from Portland come to Hood River at that Japanese meeting house. And so, yeah, so it was a Buddhist or Methodist ministry.

BY: But your family was Christian?

FN: Buddhist.

BY: Buddhist.

FN: My folks were Buddhist.

BY: But you would go to the Methodist church?

FN: I don't remember going to church at all. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 9>

BY: So let's talk, switch and talk about Pearl Harbor. So Sunday, December 7, 1941, where were you, what were you doing when you heard about Pearl Harbor?

MK: We were home. And then they had, the men had gone in to Hood River to do the regular meeting kind of thing, you know, but we were home. And then people started to say, "Japan attacked Pearl Harbor," so we were all stunned. So everybody began to listen to the radios, you know. You know how those old radios were.

BY: Frances, do you remember anything? You were about seven years old.

FN: Like I said, the only thing I remember was hovering over the radio listening.

BY: Do you remember the emotions that you observed from your parents or other people?

FN: I don't remember anything about that.

TI: Should I ask Mary what the parents' reaction was?

BY: Sure.

MK: We were all stunned.

BY: What do you remember about preparing to leave your home?

MK: I know our mother and father worked hard to get things ready, because we couldn't take everything. And so they were very busy packing everything away and leaving what they couldn't take. And I was pouting, I don't think I helped much. [Laughs] But Mom and Dad really worked hard. And then our neighbor, Mr. Harry Wilson, he had an orchard next to the Yasui place. And she used to be a schoolteacher, and she married this Harry Wilson, who was a rancher, and she was very kind and said she'd store some things for us. So Mom got those, main things we would need like bedding and cooking, things like that. So she kept that for us, she was very kind. You know how teachers are. But they weren't living in a beautiful house either, they were next door and they were living in a barn. But there was, like, we had a lot of room because we would pack apples and all that, you know. But I remember our neighbors were very good to us. But like I said, I was pouting. [Laughs]

BY: Why were you pouting?

MK: Because we had to leave.

BY: Frances, what do you remember?

MK: We rarely went anywhere, you know, in those times, because nobody traveled. And so if you ever got to Portland, it was like going on a vacation. So we rarely traveled, so anyhow, I didn't want to go. [Laughs]

BY: How about you, Frances? What do you remember about that time, getting ready to leave?

FN: All I remember is that my folks were packing and putting their things in the boy's house. We had another place where the workers, the Filipino workers would stay. And so we used that as another storage place for the things that we want to store. And I remember one of the things, or some of the things were our toys, or my toys. And so we left my best doll in the boy's house, and my mom let me take one doll, which I took to camp with me. And so that's about all I could remember about packing and getting ready to go.

BY: Did you have any pets that you had to leave behind?

FN: We had cats and dogs, but I can't remember what happened to them.

MK: Oh, we had a dog named Bill, like those little golden labs, he was a nice dog. Don't remember now, that's all I remember. I think she remembers the dog. Do you remember Bill?

FN: I remember the dog, because I remember the cat. Because one day I want to carry the cat, and my brother said no. He says, "We'll divide up the cat. What do you want, the head or the body?" And I said, "I'll take the head." So he grabbed the cat and he held it, because all I had was the head, I could just pet the head. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 10>

BY: So when did you leave Mosier?

MK: We left about Mother's Day, and a big long train into the Hood River. But Hood River people had already gone to Portland, some of them.

BY: So did you go on a different train?

MK: So we thought we would end up in Portland racetrack, you know. But no, we rode a big long train and changed trains in Portland and rode on that. They used to have fancy Union Pacific, California trains, it was very fancy at that time. So we ended up in Pinedale, so we got on that special train while the Hood River people ended up in the racetrack, Portland Meadows. And when we got on that train, it was a very fancy train. They had Negro porters that bowed to you and gave you a cloth napkin. Anyhow, we were treated to a very, very fancy train, and we ended up in Pinedale. But then they gave us fancy dinners, you know, like ice cream. Oh, that was great, that was fun.

TI: I asked, did the porters know what was happening to the Japanese?

MK: I think so. Or maybe not, I don't know, but they treated us real fancy-like. But at night, we had to close the blinds and stop, and let the other trains pass.

TI: And I was asking, how many Japanese were on this fancy train?

BY: Yeah, because I don't know that they were on the same train as the...

TI: Sounds like a different one.

BY: Yeah, it does. So maybe we can ask that.

MK: There were quite a few, but I don't remember.

BY: Because that's really different from what my dad remembers.

MK: The Dalles, Rowena, all over.

BY: Maybe ask her if the Hood River people were on the train.

TI: Go ahead and ask the question so...

BY: Oh, okay. So were Hood River people on the train?

MK: I think there was.

BY: We might be able to find that out some way. And you don't remember at all? What do you remember about that train trip, Frances?

MK: When we got to Sacramento, California, that's the first time I saw palm trees. I thought, "Oh, my goodness." [Laughs] "We're in the tropics."

BY: [Addressing FN] So you don't remember anything about that train trip?

<Begin Segment 11>

BY: Okay. So tell about your arrival at Pinedale.

MK: I felt like it was a big great trip, because I got to travel, I'd never been out of Hood River except Portland. And so for me, it was very exciting. But I know that we were sad in some ways, but I enjoyed it.

BY: What did you think of Pinedale when you got there?

MK: Well, I thought, oh my goodness, like an army camp, what you think about an army camp, made after, like an army camp, you know.

BY: Frances, do you remember anything about when you got to Pinedale, what your thoughts or feelings were?

FN: Well, I don't know whether it was my imagination or whether I heard it or not, but I thought my folks had to go and stuff the mattresses with straw. But I don't know whether that happened to us or whether I read about it, I don't know.

BY: I don't know about Pinedale, but that did happen at many of the assembly centers. Do you remember anything about the weather or the landscape or anything like that?

FN: I don't remember anything.

BY: And where did you live in Pinedale?

MK: Fifteen-something, I think. I used to know it all.

BY: Tell the story about getting separated from the other Mosier people.

MK: Oh, when I got ready to move to Tule Lake from Pinedale, we got ready to move to Tule Lake from Pinedale, we ended up with people from Kent and Auburn and that area because one of the Enumclaw families got sick, and they couldn't go. So I don't know how they chose us, but we had enough people to correspond to their family. So we ended up with the Auburn and Kent, Enumclaw and all those people, Seattle way. So the Hood River people ended up way up in Block 49, was it, way back, while we ended up in Block 53 with Seattle-area people. So we got to know a lot of Kent and Auburn, Enumclaw, Tacoma.

BY: And tell the story about graduating from high school.

TI: Why don't you give some context. We're at Pinedale?

BY: Yeah, so we're in Pinedale. Mary is a high school senior when she is removed from her home, and so she hasn't graduated from high school yet.

MK: When we went to Pinedale, when we got there... anyhow, they gave us a graduation ceremony in Pinedale for everybody that moved there. And they seemed to have, they got diplomas from all their schools, you know. And they got us all caps and gowns, kind of not red, but more mauve type of gowns, and caps and gowns and the whole bit. And we got, they named each one of us and we had to go there and get it. But they got those caps and gowns from Fresno State College. And so we all got diplomas. And there was lots of valedictorians and salutatorians out of, but I think Homer would remember because he was there, too, you know. I forgot how many there was, but there were so many. But I remember Tacoma and all those people that were there, they all got named the salutatorian or valedictorian or honorable mention, you know. It was exciting. [Laughs]

BY: Frances, do you remember anything else about Pinedale?

FN: No.

BY: Okay, so nothing about Pinedale.

<Begin Segment 12>

BY: Okay, so do you remember moving from, leaving Pinedale and going to Tule Lake? Do you remember that at all?

FN: I don't remember any of that either.

BY: Okay. And what do you remember about Tule Lake?

FN: Well, I don't remember too much about Tule Lake except I remember there was a man in there that always put on shows, and he would stick needles into his arm and different things. And so that was what I remember, is the shows that they put on.

TI: Was this a Japanese or Japanese American?

FN: Japanese man.

TI: But this was a show, it was like...

FN: I mean, he would act like... and then stick a needle in his... that's all I remember. [Laughs]

BY: Oh, okay. So, Mary, do you remember the journey from Pinedale to Tule Lake?

MK: Like I said, this was an older train. And whenever we traveled we had to close the blinds and go on the side tracks so that the other trains could go by. And so it was a slow trip, because they side tracked. They must have used all kinds of old, old trains, because some had those velvet curtains.

BY: And what were your first impressions of the camp?

MK: Just a bigger Pinedale. [Laughs] It was big. But it was near Klamath Falls, which is in Oregon, you know.

BY: This is not on the list, but what were their living conditions like?

MK: Lived in those camps like Pinedale, except they had water and mattress and all that in cots.

BY: Sounds like it was better. Do you remember anything about your living conditions, like your barrack or anything about that?

FN: I get the two camps mixed up, from Tule Lake to Topaz, Utah, so I really don't know that there was much of a difference.

BY: Okay, so what do you recall? It doesn't matter whether it was Tule Lake or Topaz? What do you recall about living conditions?

FN: All I recall is we had a one-room place to live for five of us, and so you could imagine five beds strung up in a row and no privacy at all. So you could imagine how my parents felt with all the kids around. And so eventually we built screens to screen off the areas. And since it was one room, there was only one pot stove in there. So that kept us warm, but like you say, every time we had a storm or anything, there's dust and everything.

BY: So Mary, how did you spend your time in camp?

TI: Is this Tule Lake?

BY: Either.

MK: We were graduated from high school, so I worked as a kitchen helper. And then they had classes that you could go to like ikebana and sewing. So I took those classes and they brought those water reeds from the... because Tule Lake was more of a swampy land, you know. So they brought all kinds and so we made the ikebanas. And the ladies went to the lake shore there and got seashells. And all the wood that they brought in from the sawmills and they dropped it in the middle of the camp there. The people would take those wood and carve it or make furniture, all kinds of things. So they kept busy.

<Begin Segment 13>

BY: So was this all in Tule Lake?

TI: Yeah, so I'll ask how long they were there?

MK: Until they asked those questions, "yes-yes" or "no-no."

TI: So the question is, do you remember discussing the decision?

MK: Well, we, if you say "no-no," you end up with no country. And we only knew America, so we didn't know anything about Japan. So we said "yes" and "no," so we got sent to another camp which was Topaz, Utah.

BY: So do you remember any of the --

MK: So we were all separated from Hood River people, we ended up in Topaz while the Hood River people mostly went to Minidoka or Heart Mountain.

BY: So ask her if she remembers any of the controversy around... do you remember any of the controversy around the "loyalty questionnaire"?

MK: Not really. All I remember now is that one question, the "yes" or "no."

BY: So, Frances, what do you remember about Topaz?

FN: Topaz I remember when I would be going to school, one of the, some of the boys would kind of bully me. And so my mother would have to escort me partway to school. And I had another friend named Grace Hayashi that I walked to school with, but they didn't bother her at all. So for some reason they picked on me. I mean, they didn't harm me or anything, but just called me names and things like that. And so I remember my mom... and then finally a couple of other girls, they were older, they started protecting me. And so the one thing that really amazed me was one of the girls that protected me, I think they ended up here in Seattle. And my husband dated her. [Laughs]

BY: That's funny, yeah.

FN: But I didn't know that.

BY: Mary, what do you remember about Topaz?

MK: I didn't want to work in the kitchen anymore, and they offered classes in nurse's aide, so I decided to take nurse's aide work there. So I had to walk up to the hospital because that's where they had everything up there from the hospital and the office. And so I took nurse's aide class. There was a lady there that was some kind of nurse, and she taught us all. So we all got little apron-like uniforms, and taking care of the patients. So then we'd have nights, some of us had nights where we'd stay over at the hospital there. It was a different experience.

BY: And, Frances, what happened to you then?

FN: Well, when I was in Topaz, I had to get my tonsils taken out. So I remember having my tonsils taken out and I would tell my sister, "I want some ice cream, popsicle, I want a popsicle." So that's all I remember about my surgery there.

<Begin Segment 14>

BY: What were the hardest times for you in camp?

MK: Well, when they were all having those arguments and all that, the "no-no boys" and all that, and everybody was accusing everybody else. It was a stressful time.

BY: Frances, for you, do you remember hard times at all?

MK: Getting old now, so it's all going away. [Laughs]

BY: That's okay.

FN: The thing I remember is we used to have --

MK: Not quite, I know you're...

FN: I know that at that time, we all got coupons or something to buy shoes and things. And I remember growing up that my shoe size changed, so my folks would buy me shoes, but they would have to use their coupons. And I think about that now, that I was taking up all the coupons while they were trying to keep me in shoes, and that's what I remember.

BY: And what were the most enjoyable times for you?

MK: Being near friends, you know, and going to classes. Yeah, mostly an enjoyable time there in camp. I wasn't thinking of having a gun pointing at me or anything, but just took life as it was.

BY: How about you, Frances? What was enjoyable for you as a pretty young child?

FN: I think just playing with my friends and taking piano lessons.

BY: How did you, talk about taking piano lessons. How did that happen?

FN: I have no idea. [Laughs]

BY: I mean, I'm wondering how did a piano get there, you don't know any of that? Do you remember your piano teacher's name?

FN: I'm sure that they had everything they needed, because I remember that they had all kinds of programs that they would have to use drums and things like that. So how they got there, I have no idea.

BY: So was it overall a pleasant experience for you, would you say, or not?

FN: Yes, it was okay for me. I didn't know any difference.

BY: How do you think it was for your parents?

FN: I think it was hard on them. You could imagine at age... well, anywhere from twenty-five to thirty, starting a family. And you have to uproot everything, and you can imagine yourself now, if you had to move and leave all your possessions, it would be hard. And if you only had a week to pack everything, so you know that you have to leave back a lot of things that you cherished and saved for your lifetime.

[Interruption]

MK: They enjoyed what they can, you know, they didn't stress out. I think they took day at a time, you know, and just lived shikata ga nai. [Laughs]

BY: And I think we'll take a break now, but is there anything else you would like to add about either before the war or camp before we take the break? Frances, do you want to go first while Tom is typing that in?

FN: Before the war or after?

BY: Or at camp, yeah. So sort of this whole period of growing up, going to camp, is there anything else that you want to add? Stories or anything else that you want to say?

FN: Well, all I could remember is just doing things my mother... you know like making seashell jewelry. And She took part -- or she knitted a lot, so she tried to show me how to knit. But being young in camp, you just play, is all I remember.

<Begin Segment 15>

BY: So we're going to talk about after the war. So, Mary, where did you go after the war?

MK: We came to Walla Walla.

BY: And why did your family decide to relocate to Walla Walla?

MK: Dad had gone out to work when they let the Isseis go out to the farm work, and one of the places that he came to Walla Walla. And we knew the Shinbo family. And so anyhow, we decided to come to Walla Walla.

BY: Do you know, how old were you at that time, Frances?

FN: How old I was...

BY: How old were you then?

FN: Going into sixth grade.

BY: Going into sixth grade. So do you remember your family making that decision to move to Walla Walla or did you... just went along with whatever was...

FN: I don't know how the decision was made, but I remember, I think we all had to have sponsors to go somewhere. And so I think through the Shinbos and through the Brickner family, that we were able to move to Walla Walla.

BY: So how did your family know the Shinbo family?

FN: We knew the Shinbo family from way before the war, probably Mr. Shinbo and them all met in Hood River, probably. And then somehow Mr. Shinbo and family moved to Walla Walla. And this family that the Shinbos knew owned a farm in College Place, Washington. And so we moved to College Place, Washington, and lived in the family's, Brickner family's basement. And then eventually, one of their homes opened up on the farm, and it was just a two-bedroom, one room with the kitchen and living room and everything all combined, small little house. And that's where we moved to after living in the basement.

BY: The basement of the Brickner house, okay. Do you remember traveling from (Topaz to Walla Walla), do you remember that trip?

FN: I can't remember anything about that except we were on a train, I think.

BY: Ask Mary about that. So how did you get to Walla Walla? And you talked about VJ Day.

MK: Yes. From Topaz, we got on the train. And they never paid much attention to us because there were all kinds of people plus some servicepeople, you know. And they were coming home. We just stayed quiet and they left us alone.

BY: And so where did you live in Walla Walla? Frances has already told us.

MK: When we came to Walla Walla, Union Pacific Station, now it's gone because they tore that down not too long after we came. But Mrs. Shinbo came and met us at the station there and we went to their house. [Narr. note: Mr. Shinbo was working at his place.] And we also stayed there overnight. And then they had a restaurant, and so Mrs. Shinbo helped at the restaurant. And so she had an old German lady that was from Ukraine before. She was from Kiev, evidently, before. And they took care of, she took care of the house and took care of the kids, you know, Shinbo kids. And so Mr. Shinbo got her daughter moved near College Place there, an old plum orchard there. I forgot what else, hay or wheat, you know. And so he made arrangements that we would stay in her basement. And so we called her Katie, the daughter, Katie Brickner. And so we went through her basement. So we lived in her basement for quite a few... long time there. And then they had a house next door that they were renting to another family, Seventh Day Adventist people. And after they moved out, we got to live in the house. But in the meantime, for several years, we lived up in a little cabin up on a little hill there. No plumbing or anything, you had to carry water. And then we worked on the, picked prunes or plum, you know. But there was an old orchard, so you had to carry, I spent more time carrying a ladder than getting the prunes. It was a hard time.

<Begin Segment 16>

BY: And Frances, what did you do in Walla Walla?

FN: What did I do?

BY: Yeah, what did you do?

FN: I went to school, and then when I graduated, well, in my senior year, I was taking commercial classes. And before the school year was over, I was asked by the commercial teacher to come and go with her. So I went, ended up at the superintendent of school's office. So he talked to me and pretty soon he says, "Well, you got the job." And I didn't know what they're talking about because I was still a senior, and they needed a secretary so I became his secretary. So then that was before graduation, but I was able to graduate with the class, not take my senior exams, and still participate in everything the seniors did, going on Senior Sneaks and everything. So that was a plus for me for not having to take the test or anything. So that was my experience.

BY: So what was it like when you first started school in (College Place)? So here you were, a sixth grader, coming from camp, coming to a new place, new school. What was that like for you?

FN: Well, I remember my friends telling me that they were sent to the principal's office, two of my friends. And they were told that a Japanese girl was going to enter school, and, "Please take care of her so that no harm would come to her, since she's Japanese." And so when I entered school, I didn't know that that happened, that these two students just sort of took over and protected me and we're still friends forever. And so I recently lost her through death in December.

BY: And who was this?

FN: I mean in October. That was Beth Ann Brinker Dilts, and the other one was Mary Lou Saxby, and I can't remember her last name, but Mary Lou's husband, she lost her husband through an airplane crash.

BY: So it sounds like they were white, right, these two friends?

FN: Yes.

BY: Did you have... I mean, did you have your classmates at College Place, were they mostly white or were there other Japanese Americans?

FN: Yes. I was the only minority going to the College Place school.

BY: And how was that for you?

FN: It was fine, and so this was sixth and seventh grade. And in the eighth grade, my friend, Mary Lou, she is Adventist, so she went to an Adventist school. And so I kept friends with... she's still my friend, but not as much as Beth Ann was a friend to me, all through high school, too.

BY: And were there many other Japanese American families in Walla Walla at that time?

FN: I think there were, like the Shinbos and Hamadas, Tachibanas, probably about five Japanese families, six, seven.

<Begin Segment 17>

BY: Mary, so what did you do when you were in Walla Walla?

MK: When Mr. Shinbo had the restaurant and they put curfew on, then he couldn't run his restaurant anymore, so he had to sell that cheap. And so he got a job at Whitman College as a cook for the Lyman House, a men's dorm. And so he, Mr. Shinbo, got me a job as a kitchen aid, kitchen helper. So what I did was peel potatoes or wash vegetables, wash pots and pans, you know. And so with his help, I got Whitman College's kitchen help. [Laughs] And like Whiteman was suffering, too, you know, because everybody was in the service or working at the defense job. So anyhow, we all suffered a lot. And so I don't know how long I worked at Lyman House. Then finally, somehow, a lady was the head dietician, and so we were... anyway, I decided to go to business college. And they had Walla Walla Business College downtown, which is long gone now. So I went to business college for a while and finally got a job in a dietician's office. And anyhow, I got a job in the office there, which is secluded from the kitchen area. Anyhow, I enjoyed that for quite a few years, and then it was Mrs. Borgans, she used to be a retired schoolteacher. And there was another lady there, Mr. Craigie, who was a housekeeper, and her office was with us more or less. Then there was another lady that was the assistant dietician. Anyway, it was a tiny, tiny office, but did all the kitchen work in the campus there. So I was there for, until 1978, I guess. But I was there at Whitman College a long time.

BY: So what was it like living in Walla Walla right after the war?

MK: Well, it was enjoyable. It's such a different life, you know. It wasn't bad.

BY: How about for you, Frances, what was it like living in Walla Walla?

MK: I forgot all the details now, but to get to work, there used to be a bus that went from the state line, because College Place in Walla Walla was close to the state line. And every day they go back and forth, every hour, you know. So I'd take that bus, walk to the bus from Brickners' house, and walk from down Second Avenue and up to Whitman College. So I got my exercise daily. [Laughs]

BY: Frances, what was it like living in Walla Walla at that time?

FN: Well, growing up in College Place..

BY: I guess College Place, yeah, okay.

FN: And then going to school in Walla Walla High School, since I wasn't as intimidated as my sister was, so I was not shy, so I would talk to anybody and make friends with everybody and so life was good for me. And I would try all kinds of things, you know, and talk to people, even strangers.

BY: Did you ever experience any, like, anti-Japanese, people calling you names or anything like that, that happened to you in Walla Walla?

FN: It didn't happen to me at all. But I know that my brother-in-law's brother, James, was, when he was going to high school --

MK: No, not really directly.

BY: Frances, so go ahead. You were telling a story.

FN: Oh, I was just saying that when James went to high school, I remember him going to a restaurant in Walla Walla with his high school friends. And the waitress ignored him, and so she took orders from all the rest of the boys but not him. And finally they figured out what was going on, so the whole group got up and left. And that was really nice of them because he was the only minority, too, at that time.

BY: And that was James Shinbo, then?

FN: No, James Kato.

BY: Oh, okay. So Mary's...

FN: Mary's brother-in-law.

BY: I see, okay.

<Begin Segment 18>

BY: Right, let's talk about meeting your spouses. So let's start with Mary. How did you meet your husband, what was his name?

MK: Oh, they came from Walla Walla, like Dad did, you know, work on the farm. And then farmwork in farm (labor) camp. They lived in the camp while we lived at Brickner. But after a while, the Japanese started getting engaged to others and getting to know each other. And anyway, through the friendship, we got to know the Katos and Kanemasus and all the families that were there. And so started going with George, and then December 10, 1950, we were married at Mrs. Brickner's, I used to go to Mrs. Brickner's church, you know. So we got married at that church, and they were remodeling at that time. And they were meeting in the basement, and on top, it was a beautiful new building, but they hadn't finished it yet by December 10th, so we were married in the basement. [Laughs]

BY: So you lived in the basement and you got married in the basement.

MK: And so we had our reception downtown at the Grand Hotel, they used to have everything going at the Grand Hotel. And so we got married at Grand Hotel there. Anyhow, everybody came to the Grand Hotel and we had a nice wedding and reception.

BY: And, Frances, you have a nice story about George's mother, why she thought Mary would be a good partner. Can you tell that story, please?

FN: Well, I remember this Mrs. Kato telling me that she noticed that every time something like riding the bus or something, how kind Mary was to my mother. And so she thought she would make a real good wife, she's so kind to the mother and so forth. So she suggested that George meet Mary.

BY: And how about you? How did you meet your husband and what was his name?

FN: Well, I met my husband through a blind date. He came into town, Walla Walla, to work at Bonneville Power. And I had friends, and I went to the Emmanuel Lutheran church. And so the Lutheran church people told me that some of them were working for the Bonneville Power, and they said, "Oh, there's a new guy that came to visit, I mean, to work, you'll have to meet him. And then other people that were friends that worked at Bonneville told my husband, "Oh, there's a girl that we know that you should meet." So somehow, our friend Arminta Rhodes that worked for Bonneville, she gave Roy tickets to go to the Little Theater, and told him to call me up. So he called me up, and that was our blind date was going on a Little Theater date.

BY: And what was your first impression of him?

FN: I didn't think too much of it. [Laughs] But somehow, it clicked. So we probably met like the first part of the year, and was married by December, so we only had not even a year to court and got married December 27th of 1959.

BY: Okay. And where did you get married?

FN: Oh, we got married at Emmanuel Lutheran church, and then the next funny part about our adventure was that his aunt from California came to visit, I mean, to come to our wedding. And so the whole family from the Yakima area came to the wedding. And the she had to get back to California. So on our honeymoon, we took her back. [Laughs]

BY: [Laughs] So that was your honeymoon, taking her back to California. So you drove then I guess, huh?

FN: What?

BY: You drove?

FN: Yes.

BY: And just because I want to make sure we have this, so your husband's name was Roy Nishi, okay.

<Begin Segment 19>

BY: All right. Let's talk about raising a family now. So, Mary, did you and George have children?

MK: No. That's why when everybody else was raising children, we were in a little travel club.

BY: Some kind of club?

MK: They used to have a lot of, it was a little travel club which we were... so they'd have a meeting and offer various trips.

BY: Travel club.

MK: So we'd take those little trips to a different town or different place.

BY: So maybe ask her where did they travel to?

MK: See, by then, the Katos had bought a ten acre lot outside College Place that they had owned. And so that's where I was after I got married. We had an onion farm, cucumbers, strawberries, beans, all kinds. And mainly sweet onions.

BY: Oh, Walla Walla onions.

MK: When my brother's kids, they had to come and cut onions. [Laughs]

TI: So where are some of the places you traveled with the club?

MK: We went to, across the United States, you know. We went to the new world, got to Europe. We had some good trips.

TI: What was your favorite?

MK: Oh, not really favorite, but like England and Ireland, Scotland. All those little tourist places that we go. And Italy and Paris a little bit, and the museums in Spain.

BY: Okay, Frances, how about you? Did you and Roy have children?

FN: Yes.

BY: Ages, names?

FN: We had Leanne Nishi-Wong.

BY: I know Leanne, uh-huh.

FN: And we have a son, Ron Nishi. And so they both live in this area.

BY: And what did you do when your children were young? Did you stay home and take care of them, were you working? What did you do?

FN: Well, when I got, when I was still working, my husband decided that he was going to move to Seattle from Walla Walla. And so I quit my job, and right after I quit my job, then he changed his mind and decided to stay in Walla Walla. So then I became a housewife all that time. So after we got married, Leanne arrived, then Ron arrived, and so I was a housewife all my life. So I enjoyed the life of golf, bowling. [Laughs]

BY: Did you do traveling as well?

FN: Traveling.

BY: And was he working for Bonneville Power all that time?

FN: Yes, he worked for Bonneville Power, then he retired, and then he took a job as the manager of the Port of Walla Walla. So he worked for the Port of Walla Walla for seven years after thirty years with the Bonneville Power. And so all during the time that we were married, we also traveled. So we went, took six-week trips to the southern part of the United States, another six-week trips to the north part of the United States.

BY: Driving trips?

FN: Driving trips. So six weeks of driving across the country. And then after that, we took trips to Mexico every year for a couple weeks, I mean, couple months.

BY: So you really never left Walla Walla then until recently.

FN: Until recently, yes.

BY: And how about Mary? I want to ask her that. So it sounds like all three siblings, then, were in Walla Walla together for many, many years.

FN: Yes.

BY: And Gus is still there.

FN: Habo is still there.

BY: Yeah, I read the article. It's a great article.

MK: Oh, George began to have health problems, all kinds of problems. And then her daughter and the family, they kind of took us in, you know. And so we lived with Leanne and the family until... anyhow, George got sick and passed away in 2018. And then she's taking care of me now. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 20>

BY: So you moved to Seattle from Walla Walla when George got sick, is that right?

MK: Yes.

BY: Okay. But you were still in Walla Walla all that time? So when did you move to Seattle?

FN: I moved to Seattle when, just before the virus hit, and that was 2019. Anyway, I had just come back from a trip with my son down to Lake Tahoe, and that's when the virus... so we had to be in quarantine. And I had been diagnosed with kidney failure, and so my daughter and son didn't want me to be alone in Walla Walla during the virus. And having this kidney problem, they decided to move me, Leanne decided to move me to her house. So then I came here.

BY: So then both you and Mary were living with Leanne then.

FN: Yes.

BY: Wow, okay.

FN: And so I moved with Leanne, and I was with Leanne for a year, then we moved here.

TI: Can I ask when Mary lost her hearing and how this has changed... so, Mary, when did you lose your hearing?

MK: We were going down to San Jose to a nephew's wedding down in San Jose. And I began to feel funny while I was going down there. And when I came back, we were staying overnight at Leanne's place, and so she took me to emergency, and I found out I had shingles. And so with all the shingles whatever, that's one of the things I lost.

TI: When did that happen?

MK: So then I got an operation and got this for the inner ear cochlea thing, but I was too late, I guess, because I still have it, but it doesn't work. So yeah, I can't hear anything, so all I do is go... [waves]. But you want to be alone because you can't hear a lot of times, so I have that problem. Anyhow, where I am now, I wave to everybody so they know, I guess, that I'm hard of hearing. [Laughs] But she's there for me to interpret a lot of things. So I'm enjoying life.

TI: Frances, when did Mary lose her hearing?

FN: I think she lost it about... let's see, we've been two or three, four... four or five years ago.

MK: Changed my life. Can't drive.

<Begin Segment 21>

BY: So this is actually not a question that I have, but looking back, what made Walla Walla the place where they settled down, pretty much, for life? What was it about Walla Walla? I'm just wanting to reflect on being in Walla Walla. So how would you answer that? Like looking back, you spent almost all your life in one place. What was it about that place that made you want to spend all that time there?

FN: Well, for one thing, Walla Walla is a friendly place. And I don't, I wasn't growing up feeling isolated or anything. And all I could say is, being one of the first minorities there, that my husband I could say was the first one to be able to join the Exchange Club, which was an all-white club for men. Now they have organized men in it because of this equal rights amendment. And we were the first ones, minority, Asians, I should say, to join the Elks Club. And we were the first minority Japanese to, or minority, to join the country club. And there was one other Italian family that was the first Italian family to join the country club and also the Elks Club. So all these clubs were closed in Walla Walla to minorities. And so we feel very honored to be the first ones to break the barriers.

BY: And when was that? Around what time?

FN: So that would be about 1962 or '63. And also we were told when we were trying to buy a house that certain areas were off limits for us to buy in certain areas, and we knew that. And so when we first, my husband and I first purchased, were thinking about purchasing another house, I asked the neighbor that we've moved into, that I knew her. I said, "Do you mind if I become your neighbor?" And she answered, "Oh, certainly it's okay." So we were able to buy that house. So anyway, that's how...

BY: You came to be there for so long.

FN: Yes.

TI: So the question is, looking back, what made Walla Walla the place you wanted to live?

MK: I don't know. Since we knew the Shinbos, you know, and we know we couldn't go back to Mosier. We didn't own the land at all. So that's where we ended up. It's been a good life. We worked hard, you know, with all that onion farming, you know.

BY: And your brother actually married Patty Shinbo, right?

FN: Yes.

<Begin Segment 22>

BY: All right, so last question. So how do you think the wartime experience changed you? I'll let Mary go first.

MK: I think in many ways, it made us aware of the world. Otherwise we'd still be in a little Japanese town and just that life around. But this way, everybody became citizens of the world. In many ways it really helped. Because look where the Japanese are. They're all over, they're writing everything, they're making history. [Laughs]

BY: Okay, so there were maybe some good things about it.

FN: Yeah.

BY: Well, what do you think, Frances? How did the wartime experience change you?

FN: Well, the wartime experience didn't change me, but I was proud of my parents. Because here we move out of camp, go to College Place, work on the farm, eventually buy the farm and be able to stay there and own the property. So I thought that was very, thinking back now, starting out with just a hundred dollars for the whole family of five of us, and being able to buy the farm and be where we are now. I think it's a wonderful thing that my parents were able to do.

BY: So then were there two farms? So Mary and George had a farm, and then there was another farm? Or was it all one farm?

FN: No, George and Mary's family had another farm, so we were two different farms.

BY: And did you grow onions as well?

FN: Yes. Onions and...

TI: How large were these farms?

FN: How large was our farm? Gosh, I don't know how many acres we owned. She may remember how many acres in College Place, but I don't know.

BY: And do you still have those farms or were they both sold?

FN: No, my brother sold the place.

BY: Okay, and the Kato farm is also gone?

FN: Yes. Yeah, George sold, her husband sold the Kato farms.

MK: Twelve acres. And then he rented some other land besides the twelve, but the original was twelve acres.

TI: Should we go ahead and ask that last question?

BY: Yeah, yeah.

TI: Because I changed it to "younger generation." So, Mary...

MK: Take advantage of all the things, take advantage of everything that comes your way. Bad things maybe, but then there's a good side to it, too, and you learn things. Pass it on to the next generation.

BY: And so the question, Frances is, looking back on your --

MK: Like what you're doing here, you're making history.

BY: Well, we're collecting it.

MK: But like I said, you have to live it to find out, you know. You could hear all about it, "Oh, the poor things," but then you have to live through it in order to appreciate what you do have.

BY: Okay, so Frances, the question is, looking back on your life, what advice or words of wisdom would you want to share with the younger generation?

FN: I think with the younger generation they should realize how important it is to have our freedom, and for everyone to get together and enjoy each other's company and each other's heritage.

BY: Okay, thank you very much, both of you.