Densho Digital Repository
Densho Visual History Collection
Title: Toshiko Hayashi Interview
Narrator: Toshiko Hayashi
Interviewers: Tom Ikeda (primary), Barbara Yasui (secondary)
Location: Seattle, Washington
Date: March 3, 2022
Densho ID: ddr-densho-1000-492

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: So today is March 3, 2022, and we're interviewing Toshiko Hayashi. Co-interviewing is Barb Yasui, and on camera is Dana, Dana Hoshide. And we're in the Lakeshore... I always get the name wrong, just the Lakeshore Retirement Community?

TH: Something like that.

TI: And right next to the (Renton Airport).

[Interruption]

TI: And so let's start. Can you tell me when and where you were born?

TH: I was born in Portland, Oregon, in 1925.

TI: And what was the date?

TH: Oh, April 14th.

TI: Okay, April 14th. And so as you mentioned, your birthday is coming up.

TH: Yes.

TI: And so right now, you're ninety-six years old?

TH: (...)

TI: You look amazing.

TH: Or you can turn it around, I'm sixty-nine.

TI: [Laughs] Okay. I mean, people, you could pass for sixty-nine. And when you were born in Portland, do you recall, was it in a hospital?

TH: In those days, it was a hotel room, and Mrs. Saruwatari was the (midwife).

[Interruption]

TI: And so that was pretty common that everyone would...

TH: It was very common.

TI: And when you were born, were you living in Beaverton, or was the family living in...

TH: Beaverton.

TI: Okay, so they would come up to deliver.

TH: Yes, seven miles.

TI: Any stories about your delivery that you remember? Like was there kind of any, like what your parents were doing when they came up to Portland, or was she just staying up in Portland for a while?

TH: My mother?

TI: Yeah, your mother.

TH: I don't know, I think she just went back to Beaverton riding in a ton and a half truck.

TI: And then kind of the day she delivered you, did she... was she in Beaverton or was she staying in Portland, ready to deliver you?

TH: Probably in Portland.

TI: So we're talking about your parents. Let's first talk about... well, actually, let me ask you this question. So what was the name given to you when you born?

TH: Toshiko.

TI: And your surname, last name?

TH: Hayashi.

TI: Hayashi.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: And so what was your father's name?

TH: Shinichi Hayashi.

TI: And where was he born?

TH: Hiroshima.

TI: And do you know when he was born?

TH: 1885.

TI: Okay, '85. And so he was forty years old when you were born, roughly?

TH: Probably.

TI: So let's talk about your father a little bit. Tell me about his family and how he was raised.

TH: He was an only child. He was probably spoiled. He stole a tree someplace and planted it in his mother's yard. And when I went back to Japan, it was a big tree by then. But anyway, I think he was a little naughty, because being an only child and spoiled.

TI: Oh, so it was an interesting story. So someone told you that was a stolen tree that your father...

TH: I think it was. I don't think they had nurseries in Hiroshima.

TI: So only child, and how about his parents?

TH: I think his father passed... I didn't ever ask, his father apparently passed away when he was quite young, and so he was going to come to America to make a better, save a lot of money and take it back to his mother. And when he came, he left home, being an only child, she had a nervous breakdown.

TI: Before we go there, I want to know, if his father died when he was quite young, and he was an only child, do you know how the mother supported the family?

TH: Well, she had a lot of land and rentals, I think. I think that was her only income.

TI: Oh, so it's interesting. So as the only child, your father, and the son, he wanted to go to America to make money. And you mentioned (his) mother had a nervous breakdown. So talk about that. Why did (his) mother have that nervous breakdown?

TH: His mother.

TI: Yeah, his mother.

TH: I think without a husband, now without a child, I think that just, something snapped and she moved into the shed, she wouldn't come out for ten years.

TI: Okay. And your father then, even though your mother didn't want him to go, he chose still to go to America. But you mentioned his thought was that he would just go there to make money and then return to Japan?

TH: Right. And I think that was the thought of a lot of Issei parents, you know, kind of earn some money.

TI: So tell me what you know of his early life in America? So he came to America. Do you know about when he came?

TH: My mother was seventeen or eighteen, she was born in 1900.

TI: Okay. But your father, when he came the first time, I have, he came in, like, 1902, is when he came, does that sound about right?

TH: Uh-huh, that could be.

TI: So he was about seventeen years old. And as a seventeen-year-old young man, to me, it's kind of astounding when I think of someone seventeen, here, they'd still be in high school. And to think about him going to a different country, not really knowing the language and the customs. Seems like a pretty extraordinary thing, to me.

TH: It was quite an experience for all of those young men. I could get... I could tell you about his two roommates. They knew nothing about farming (and became a doctor). Dr. Tanaka and Mr. Takeoka, (who became a lawyer), and my dad. He lived on the farm helping take care of the pigs or whatever. And one of the pigs got out, and Mr. Takeoka went running to the farmhouse and said, "Hey, Boshin, bacon run away." [Laughs] I'll always remember that was so funny.

TI: "Bacon run away." [Laughs]

TH: Yeah, and that's how much English they knew.

TI: And who told you that story?

TH: My dad, years ago.

TI: So tell me, what was your dad like? How would you describe him?

TH: Very quiet. My mother was very (chatty), so he was just a quiet person.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: Okay, so going back to your father, he came to America when he was seventeen, he was working as, kind of, this laborer and farmer.

TH: (...)

TI: And then how did he meet your mother?

TH: They met in Japan. They knew each other -- well, didn't know each other, but he met her in Japan. But I don't know the extent of that part.

TI: So they met in Japan. So let's go to your mother. Tell me about her family. What do you know about your mother's family?

TH: The Maruyama family lived about seven miles out of the city. She was the eldest of the, all the children, three girls and two boys.

TI: Okay. And in the same way, did she ever tell you any stories about her growing up?

TH: I never have. I wish I would have asked more questions.

TI: Or any stories about any of her siblings? Do you know anything about her siblings? Do you know anything about her siblings and what they were like?

TH: I met them. I mean, the parents gave them all musical lessons, you know, kotos and shamisen or whatever. They never got very good at it, but they had experience of being spoiled in that way, but I don't know too much.

TI: Okay. So let's go back. I forgot to ask, so what was your mother's name? You mentioned the last name Maruyama.

TH: Shigeko.

TI: And do you know when she was born?

TH: 1900.

TI: Okay. So that puts the difference between your father and mother at about fifteen years age difference?

TH: Exactly.

TI: And it sounds like, you mentioned, they knew each other, the families knew each other? So were they, did they kind of live in the same area, same village?

TH: No. His parents lived in the Hiroshima (city). (...)

TI: So tell me again, what kind of connection between the families? Do you know of any connection?

TH: I don't, other than Hiroshima.

TI: And do you know if, like, a baishakunin was involved?

TH: That I don't know either. Probably was, I would think.

TI: So I'm curious, so your mother was the eldest of five children. Did she ever tell you what it was like for her to come to America? Was she excited, was she afraid?

TH: She never talked about that, never did.

TI: Or anything about, like, how the trip was when she came on the ship?

TH: I know it was a rough boat ride, fourteen days in a ship. Those days, they didn't ride in airplanes.

TI: Any other stories that you recall from that fourteen-day trip?

TH: Well, when I went, I got the measles on the ship. So they were going to let us off in Vancouver, Canada, but I was well enough to come on into Portland. But we were quarantined for that entire trip, in a dark room.

TI: Okay, so this is a trip when you were...

TH: Six or seven.

TI: Six or seven. You went to Japan with your mother, and then this is on the trip back, you're talking about.

TH: Yes. It cost ninety-nine dollars, it was, a ticket.

TI: Oh, so how do you remember that?

TH: (...) I asked my mother, "How much did it cost to go to Japan?"She said, "For you it was ninety-nine dollars." I didn't ask her how much hers was.

TI: Interesting. But that was a lot of money back then.

TH: Yes, it was. To save that much, growing flowers and little vegetables, yeah, it was a lot.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: So let's talk a little bit about, we talked about your father and mother. Let's talk about your siblings. So you mentioned you were born in 1925. Tell me about your other siblings in the order of their birth.

TH: My brother was the eldest.

TI: And his name was?

TH: Masao, born in 1920. When he was small, being an only boy, and spoiled, too. [Laughs] but I don't remember much about it. Although my mother's whole desire was for him to go to college, which he did.

TI: And then after Masao...

TH: Was Yaeko, a sister, 1922.

TI: Okay. And so she was two years younger than your brother, but about three years older than you?

TH: Yes.

TI: And I should mention, too, that your mother came to the United States about the same time, around maybe (1918)?

TH: I think she also was seventeen or eighteen years old.

TI: Yeah. And when she came, around (1918), so it sounds like right away she started raising a family, having children.

TH: Right.

TI: Good.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

BY: You said, though, they got married in Japan, is that right? Did I hear that right?

TH: My mother and father?

BY: (...)

TH: I think they did.

BY: So then that meant that your father came to the U.S., and then he went back to get married. And so at what point did his mother go to the shed? Was it when you first left or after he came back to get married and then he returned? Because then you've talked about how, when you visited, she came out of the shed.

TH: And she was in there ten years.

BY: So my sense -- and we talked about this in the pre-interview -- I think she may have first gone into the shed a little bit later. It's almost like, it feels like maybe when he came back and got married and then left.

TH: I kind of think it was more of that. It makes a little more sense.

TI: Because I think when we talked about it earlier, you didn't think the, like the Maruyama family didn't know that she was, like, living in a shed at that point.

TH: No.

TI: So that was, probably happened after they got married.

TH: (...)

BY: Because then you went back with your mom when you were six or seven, and that was the point she came out of the shed.

TH: (...)

TI: Right, which would have been the year.

BY: That makes sense.

TI: And that kind of makes sense, too, from your grandmother's standpoint, was, her son came back, and then for him to get married and then go back to America, probably in her mind, said, "Oh, he's not going to come back." That's probably when she really probably became more despondent and had the breakdown. Oh, so, Barb, thanks for walking us through that. Yeah, so that makes a lot of sense.

TH: Yeah, that makes sense. She was fortunate to have good neighbors, Mrs. Fujita and her daughter took good care of her when she was in the shed, took her food and water. It must have just been a dark cubbyhole, because she was so white when we went back to Japan.

TI: Well, since we're on this topic, let's talk about it. So about ten years later, you would have been... you said around six or seven?

TH: Six or seven when we went.

TI: Okay. So she's been in the shed for ten years, you go back to Japan with your mother, and did you go back with any of your... your brother or sister?

TH: No, my sister was already there. The whole idea also was to bring her back (to America) at that time. But by then she was used to the country and going to school, made friends, she didn't want to come back.

TI: And so, and your sister was living with your mother's family, the Maruyamas? Which was, like, you mentioned, in Hiroshima?

TH: (...).

TI: Seven miles out.

TH: It seemed like it was about seven, or maybe a little less.

TI: Okay. So the Hayashi mother had property in Hiroshima.

TH: Yes.

TI: So that was probably pretty valuable property then, I'm thinking.

TH: It was when the war broke out, yes. And she gave most of that land to (Mrs.) Fujita and her daughter. She asked my dad if he wanted any of it and he said he didn't. But she gave part of it to my cousin that was a doctor. (...) He built a building and after the war, when I went to visit, he had his office in there. So he did keep part of it. It stayed in the family, I mean.

BY: So the woman and her daughter she gave the property to, were they the ones who took care of her when she was in the shed?

TH: (...)

BY: So you said that your grandmother gave her property to a woman and her daughter.

TH: Yes.

BY: So my question is, were they the ones who took care of her while she was in the shed?

TH: Yes, right.

BY: Okay, that makes sense.

TI: Yeah, that makes sense. But then going back to what you remember, so you're, like, six or seven, and your grandmother comes out of the shed and you said she was so white and frail. And what was the reaction of the people... first, when she came out? What was her demeanor? What was she like when she came out?

TH: To me, it was, she was just normal. She was my grandmother and I didn't think anything of it. I just thought, wow. Used to say in Japanese, "Shiroi," and my mother says, "Don't say that." [Laughs]

TI: And so why do you think she came out of the shed after having been there for so long?

TH: I don't know. I think she was so happy that part of her family was here.

TI: And do you know, after that, did she then just come out of the shed and stay out of the shed?

TH: (...)

TI: Oh, so it was a really breakthrough for her then.

TH: Uh-huh. But with all that property, I don't know how much property it was, but maybe it wasn't much at all. But she had enough to survive.

TI: Do you remember any reaction from your mother?

TH: (...)

TI: Any reaction from your mother when her mother-in-law came out of the shed?

TH: Same as I did, she thought she was so white, but that's it. Nothing else was ever said.

TI: Thank you. It's such an interesting story.

TH: It is. I wish I would have asked more. It's just like young people now should ask their parents more.

TI: But it just tells me, sometimes, the heartbreak that happens when your child leaves. And you mentioned, I think earlier, how your dad was kind of spoiled, right, he was naughty? And so (his) mother must have, yeah, spoiled him a little bit, and just loved him so much, and then to have him leave, must have been such...

TH: Right, yes.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: Okay. So let's go back to Beaverton. And when you were born and you have two older siblings, tell me about the family home. What was the family home like when you were young?

TH: Well, it was very bare. My parents loved animals, so we always had a dog. And my dad... and in the pictures in the museum in Portland, he built a greenhouse. I don't know how he did it. I only remember he had a hammer and a leveler, but he must have had other tools. But how he ever built... it looked just like a regular greenhouse, all glass. I wished that I had asked more questions (then).

TI: And what was in the greenhouse?

TH: He raised, he planted flower seeds and vegetable seeds. And (...) it was heated with hot water pipes going through it, and I don't know how he even knew how to do that. Being an only child, he had no education in building anything. So somebody probably helped him.

TI: Oh, so interesting. I'm an engineer, so I love to kind of figure out how things work. So he had a piping system in the greenhouse so things wouldn't freeze, essentially?

TH: And make the plants grow faster.

TI: And how did, so it was hot water that would do that, how did he heat the hot water?

TH: He had a... I just remember a big stove outside in the back. And I didn't pay much attention to it, I thought everybody did that. But the pipes went through the greenhouse, and it was a pretty large greenhouse. Not huge.

TI: Well, so how large would you say it was?

TH: (...)

TI: Okay, so maybe... this is about thirty feet, so maybe sixty feet long?

TH: Right. And then about this wide, because it seems like there was one, where you walked, and then there were boxes on both sides filled with seedlings.

TI: So let's go back to the living quarters. What were the living quarters like? Like how many bedrooms?

TH: Well, there was an upstairs, (...) three bedrooms and a wood stove. But a real fancy stove, because it had one section that the hot water would heat, and (a section) where you could keep your food warm. I can't explain it. I have pictures of it, but it was a fancy stove.

TI: So it was like a wood burning stove?

TH: Oh, yes, always.

TI: Okay, so it had, sounds like a warming chamber, something just to heat water also?

TH: And on the side there was a place you fill it with water and it became hot water.

TI: Interesting. I don't think I've ever seen anything like that.

TH: Oh, yeah. [Laughs] And we had a washtub like this and we'd take water from there and fill it. That was our bath.

TI: And with the three bedrooms, how were the sleeping arrangements? Who slept where?

TH: The two girls and then my brother, parents had the downstairs.

TI: And how about things like running water? Did you have running water in the house?

TH: Yes. But bathroom was outside. Sears and Roebuck catalogue was the paper. [Laughs] I don't think everybody did, but most people did.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: And so when you were young, it sounds like you remember having your sister there. What was kind of like a typical day for the family? I mean, when you think about maybe like around now, like in the springtime, what would a typical day be like?

TH: Well, I don't ever remember being on a vacation, not many people did. But I don't know, we just expected our parents to be out in the field working, I guess.

TI: But when you, like when you wake up in the morning, would someone wake you up and would there be breakfast? So tell me how, what would happen for you during that period?

TH: Oh. We would just wake up, my mother always had a breakfast for us. I don't even remember what it was, but we had a breakfast, and we always walked to school. They didn't have a bus, so it's just a couple of miles.

TI: But you said, so when you woke up, your parents were already out in the fields working?

TH: Probably.

TI: And so the breakfast was just like, on the table waiting for you?

TH: Just help ourselves to whatever's there.

TI: And then you had to get yourselves ready for school and just go to school?

TH: Right.

TI: And you would take a bus, or would have to walk to school?

TH: We usually walked. (...) I mean, didn't have school buses that I remember, because I never rode in one. But my friend walked two miles, and then we'd meet at school. And I think about a mile for me.

TI: And then after school when you came home, what happened?

TH: I'd go out in the field where my mother would be working, and I would either play or pretend like I'm helping her or whatever.

TI: And these were, again, the crops were flowers?

TH: Flowers and vegetables. Tomatoes, mostly tomatoes, (...).

TI: Now, did your parents have workers on the farm?

TH: No, it was just a small (farm) in Beaverton it was only seven acres, and they did it themselves.

TI: I mean, seven acres sounds like a lot to me.

TH: It does to me, too. But when you think... I remember it was seven acres. And there was a ditch, a little creek. I used to call it a ditch, and they used to take, some way, the water, I think they must have scooped it out to water the tomatoes and all that.

TI: And do you recall, did your father have, like, machinery and things like tractors and things like that?

TH: He had a horse, her name was Mary, and we weren't allowed to ride it. Mary was his treasure, he loved Mary more than us. But anyway, he would groom her, and my job was to clean out the barn, though, because it was kind of smelly. [Laughs]

TI: And how would you, why would you say that he loved Mary more than he loved the kids?

TH: Because we weren't to ride her, but soon as, like use it for plowing or whatever he did, he'd tell me I had to wash her down. Took very good care of her. That was his only machinery.

TI: [Addressing BY] I was going to move on to her sister, but any other questions about this?

BY: I just was wondering what... so they grew vegetables and flowers. Who would they sell them to, or where would they take them?

TH: He built a stand out in front (of our house). He must have been a little handy with a hammer. A little open faced store.

BY: Like a produce stand and flower stand?

TH: Right.

BY: Did he sell anything to, say, like a market in Portland or even to some other...

TH: And then when the vegetables came out, they used to... I remember radishes and tomatoes only, but I know there were some other things. There was a Security Market in Portland, maybe you're familiar with it? The ladies, mostly the wives, had little stalls, and they would sell produce there.

BY: Maybe something like Pike Place Market in Seattle, where these truck farmers would go and take their...

TH: Yes.

TI: How about, would they ever do any wholesale to, like a cooperative with the farmers, would pool their things together and sell to them?

TH: No. But after Beaverton, all the people farther west were strawberry farmers and they did have a big coop. And my dad... and when the war broke out, he had sixty acres of strawberries, and that's where he would have taken 'em. I think that was the first year that he had strawberries.

TI: Well, so your dad, by the time of the war, had expanded quite a bit. You mentioned originally seven acres, but then...

TH: Sixty acres.

TI: But grew to sixty acres.

TH: But that's the sad part. We moved out on May 2nd. Next month probably would have been berry season, because the berries, I guess, were ready to ripen. But all the money they had was put into that field. And the only money he had, he had a war bond. I think there were 750 dollar war bonds, that's the only thing. So whatever he had put in, everything was lost. They lost everything, all the Japanese farmers lost everything.

TI: And do you know if -- we're jumping around a little bit, but this is interesting -- did someone come in when the family left, and they came in and harvested, like the strawberries?

TH: That we don't know, we just left it. But some people, one family, my friend said that neighbors came and just picked whatever they wanted for themselves, didn't take 'em to the market or anything.

TI: That's so interesting to me. I mean, just this side note, thinking, so the war had started, you have all these fresh fruits and berries, I would think it would be so desirable or so needed during this time. It's such a waste that it was not really harvested.

TH: Right. Like ours, I think... well, the worst part for me was leaving our dog. But one of the neighbors, after about a half a year, wrote to, got a hold of, found us someplace. Anyway, they took the dog and they told my dad that they picked some of the strawberries for themselves(...). And not only us, some of the Japanese people had hundreds of acres.

TI: And for your family, you know, these 60 acres, did your father, was your father leasing it or did he own it?

TH: No, you couldn't own land then. My brother was too young to own.

TI: So that was all really lost then, he just had to walk away from it.

TH: Yeah, just walked away from it. That must have been hard.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: Okay, so I'm going to take you now back to when you were a kid. Because at one point you mentioned your sister Yaeko living in Japan. Do you know when she left to go to Japan, how old she was?

TH: I think she was nine.

TI: But you said, okay, let me get these, kind of the dates right. You said you went to Japan when you were six? And you said that Yaeko was already there?

TH: Uh-huh, and she's three years older.

TI: Okay, so she had just turned, so she had just gotten there.

TH: Probably. But she didn't want to come back, according to my mother. She said that she wanted to bring her back. But she did come back just before the war started.

TI: And so you said she was there for about ten years.

TH: Uh-huh.

TI: And how close were the two of you before she went to Japan? You were six, she was about nine? How close were the two of you?

TH: Well, she had her friends and I had my friend. I only had one friend but we didn't really play together or go shopping. Nobody went shopping in those days.

TI: Do you remember, and I know you were really young, but do you remember why she went to Japan and how she felt about that?

TH: She never mentioned it. Apparently my parents thought that they will have earned enough money that we would all go back. I think that was their thought. But after a short while, my mother wanted to bring her back. But I really don't know the real reason.

TI: So your thinking, though, is your parents might have thought they would go back to Japan, so sending her to Japan earlier, she would be better able to live in Japan?

TH: I guess. Because so many families did that in those days.

TI: Do you recall how your sister felt about going to Japan? Was she excited? Did she want to go?

TH: I don't remember that at all. I just thought she was going on a trip.

TI: So I'm going to jump around a little bit. So you said ten years later she comes back to America, to Beaverton. How had she changed? I mean, did she seem different than the sister you knew before?

TH: Well, she knew a lot of Japanese. [Laughs] But she was very, very, very intelligent, I mean, a lot smarter than me. And she picked up the, got back, because she did know a little English before, and so she was fluent in both languages. And in some way, when the war started, the government knew -- I don't know how -- but they called her and wanted her to come to San Francisco to be an interpreter. And I don't know how that all happened, but my dad wouldn't let her go.

TI: I'm sorry, would not let her go?

TH: Uh-huh.

TI: And why?

TH: Well, she was still pretty young. See, she came back just before the war started. Or someone, one of my parents' friends was going to go over to get their son and bring him back. And at the same time, my mother asked her to bring my sister back. And then December 7th, so I don't remember what date or anything that she came back, but it was just before.

TI: And when you said the government knew about her and wanted her to work in San Francisco, do you know if that was with, like, the Presidio?

TH: I think Presidio where they had the language school.

TI: Interesting.

TH: Yeah, it would have been interesting for her, but she didn't want to go either, but my dad said no.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: Okay, so I know I'm jumping around, but let's go back to your schooling. So when you're six, your sister leaves, you travel to Japan, you come back, so you're a little bit older now. So tell me about your elementary school. What was that like.

TH: Well, it was fun, mostly. Grade school is a lot of fun, you had a lot of friends.

TI: And tell me, in terms of your friends in school, were there very many other Japanese around?

TH: Not in Beaverton. Just two other families, and that was the only Japanese I ever knew 'til I grew up.

TI: And so tell me the families. I think you mentioned earlier, the two other families in Beaverton were?

TH: The Nagaes and the Satos.

TI: And the Nagaes, I just know that family because I know Peggy Nagae, so you mentioned that.

TH: Peggy lives in Portland now.

TI: And in terms of, so who would you say your best friends were, growing up during that time?

TH: They were hakujins, Ruby Rice and Marjorie Bartell. And this Margie is still living. She's a golf pro and she's in Arizona. She's retired now.

TI: I was going to say, that's pretty amazing.

TH: But she goes to Arizona, and she'll be back in Beaverton in May, so I'll go down and visit her.

TI: Oh, that's special. You also mentioned a Viola?

TH: Oh, Viola Lierman, they lived right next door to me. And her mother would give me milk to take to school. I was so proud of that milk, it's like a luxury to have, because we didn't ever buy milk.

TI: And then we were talking about neighbors and friends, you mentioned Ruby Rice. You told an interesting story when you were a kid, the Rices lived across the street. And as you were crossing the street...

TH: I got hit by a car, fell into their garden.

TI: And so how old were you and tell me kind of what happened?

TH: I must have been six years old.

TI: And so what happened after you fell into the ditch, the garden?

TH: Well, the man that hit me loaded me into the car, his car, and took me to Portland, but nobody knew where he took me. But they decided that, let's try Doernbecher Hospital, because that's a children's hospital, and that's where I was.

TI: And this man who hit you and took you to the hospital, did you or the family know who he was?

TH: No. And I don't know what happened after that, he kind of disappeared. Because it was my fault, I ran right in front of his car. But I wasn't hurt badly, thank goodness.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: So there was a story you told me, again, you're like six or seven. And you talked about your mother working at the Security Market. I guess the question I was going to ask you was about Japanese language school. And so you mentioned, so tell me about Japanese language school, where it was and how it got there and what that was like?

TH: Well, there was a North and a South, and I went to the North. I don't know if they still have it that way. I don't know if you knew, what's his name? Fuzzy Fujiyama? He had an insurance agency (...) in Seattle. And Tai Ninomura and Miki Onishi, they were all my classmates in Japanese school. I didn't learn much, but I learned to play. [Laughs]

TI: Well, so tell me where the language school was. Because you lived in Beaverton, and where was the language school, how did you get there?

TH: I took the (Greyhound) bus. I think I was only about six or seven. I took the bus to Portland, (...) the bus station is right near (...) Meier & Frank, I don't know if it's still there. And then I'd walk over to Meier & Frank and put my roller skates on, and skate kitty-corner across because I had to go to Sixth and Flander, and that's where our Japanese school was.

TI: It's so cute. So you put roller skates on, was that because it made it faster, or was it just so you could play?

TH: Because it was fun. Because the ladies there were all so nice to me, I think they felt sorry for me.

TI: And was it a good place to roller skate, when you put those skates on?

TH: Perfect. [Laughs]

TI: So describe that. What was that like, was the floor like? And you said the ladies thought it was cute?

TH: Yeah. Well, on marble floor, my roller skates didn't make much noise. And we didn't have fancy skates like they do now. Yeah, if the skates would come off or something would break, they would help me put 'em back on.

TI: And then you would from there go, then, to Japanese language school.

TH: Yes.

TI: And I think you told me earlier, what day would this be for Japanese language school?

TH: It was right after grade school. Did we get out at one o'clock or whatever? And so it'd still be light outside. I think the Japanese school was probably a couple of hours is all, and I learned to play and have a lot of fun.

TI: And so for you it's a time to meet a lot of other Japanese Americans?

TH: Right, yeah. I really didn't learn much, and I wish I did. [Laughs] But also, I went to a Japanese school in Hillsboro and in Banks, but the teacher would pick me up. So you would think I'd be very fluent in Japanese. [Laughs]

TI: Yeah, I think we've heard other stories of... I mean, it was hard because, as you say, you'd go to your regular school during the day, and then after that, you would have to then go to Japanese language school.

TH: Right.

TI: So extra. And how many days a week would you have to go to Japanese language school?

TH: Seems like I went two or three days because then I would roller skate up to Security Market where my dad would pick us up. I didn't have to take the bus home.

TI: And you would take this trip every day by yourself?

TH: [Nods].

TI: And so what was your brother and sister -- well, your sister is in Japan now. But where's your brother?

TH: I don't remember him going to Japanese school ever. But I think he did, in Hillsboro on (Sundays). But I don't remember him going to school.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: So after Japanese language school on Sixth and Flander, you would then, you said you went to the Security Market, because your mother was there?

TH: (...).

TI: And then what would happen?

TH: That's where my dad would pick us up and then go home, which was about seven o'clock, I think, it was getting dark sometimes.

TI: So describe when you'd go to Security Market. What was it like? What did you see? You said other, there were other Japanese stalls there?

[Interruption]

TI: So was it kind of similar to, in Seattle, the Pike Place Market where they have stalls and sell flowers?

TH: Yes, I meant Pike, yes. Years ago, the ladies used to have stalls. Then mostly Japanese people.

BY: And where was it? Was it in Japantown or was it someplace else.

TH: What's that?

BY: Where was Security Market? Was it in Japantown or someplace else?

TH: I think near the waterfront, (...).

BY: So then most of the merchants and venders there, were they Japanese or were they all different nationalities?

TH: All differently. Mostly Italian, I remember an Italian lady was there. But most of the Japanese ladies (...) were together.

TI: And the customers were just, who were the customers?

TH: Caucasian people.

TI: And during this long day, you wake up, you eat your breakfast, you go to school, and then you take this bus. At some point, where did you eat? Did you have snacks someplace?

TH: I don't remember any snacks.

TI: So, like, at the language school, maybe they had snacks there? I'm trying to think...

TH: I don't think they ever did.

TI: It's just astounding. I'm just trying to imagine my six year old kids taking a bus to another town or another city, being on their own, roller skating downtown, going to Japanese language school and then going to the Security Market on their own, it just astounds me.

TH: I know. And then those days, nobody, I mean, now, the police would probably stop and ask you, a six year old kid, "Where are you going?"

TI: Do you remember ever being, maybe, worried or afraid or anything like that?

TH: No, because I thought everybody did that. In those days, it was pretty common to be independent, because most parents were working out in the fields or wherever, whatever they were doing.

TI: Now, as you got older, so going back to, kind of, the farm life. As you got older, you're now a teenager, did you start acquiring chores and things that you had to do at the farm that were kind of your jobs?

TH: Not necessarily your job, but you just did whatever had to be done, I guess. I don't remember anybody telling me what to do, I just went out and picked tomatoes if everybody was picking tomatoes.

TI: How about things like cooking and washing and things like that?

TH: Well, in those days, I don't think my mother had a washing machine... she went someplace to pick hops when we were in Tigard (...) where the strawberries were. She went someplace with her friends to pick hops -- oh, to Salem, Oregon. And then when she came back, I was out in the back washing my dad's overalls like she did with a brush. She felt so sorry for me. And then that same time, I was canning pears, and I was still pretty young. I don't know how old I was, but maybe ten.

TI: Wow.

BY: So then your family truck farm and greenhouse were, you said the strawberries were in Tigard?

TH: But, see, by then we moved. He gave up that part of the farming.

TI: Oh, the Beaverton farm?

TH: Right.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

BY: Oh, so you moved to Tigard then. When was that, about?

TH: Pardon?

BY: When was that?

TH: It was probably just before the war, because it seems like that was his first strawberry crop.

BY: So going back to Beaverton, I remember you told me the address. Was it Route 1, Box 2?

TH: (...).

TI: And Tigard, do you recall the address?

TH: I don't.

TI: Or how would you describe where that was? Or do you know what's there now?

TH: Full of beautiful homes. [Laughs] But my neighbor, her dad was (...) Loomis trucks, they pick up money? And they had a beautiful home, and she always went to school with a chauffeur would take her (...). But when she came home, she would stop, he would let her off at my place, and we would play. And all I had for toys was an orange box that my mother sewed some cloth around, that was my dresser. But anyway, some days I would go to her house, she had beautiful pink curtains, I'll never forget that.

TI: So how did you become friends with her?

TH: I think one day she was out playing. She lived about maybe two blocks away, and we were having so much fun, she joined us. But she went to some private school. In those days, it was all news to me, because this chauffeur or somebody would take her to school and let her off, coming home where we were.

TI: So tell me more about when you went to her house. It was just, you said, a couple blocks away. Describe the house just a little bit. I mean, was it a lot different than your house?

TH: Very different. I mean, we had a nice house in Tigard because the house came with the land that my dad rented. But her house was... well, you might compare it with a house in Chinatown compared to Newcastle. It was a real beautiful house, and inside was just beautiful. But the mother and father were real good to me. They would always invite me to come in and play.

BY: How old were you when you moved to Tigard, do you think?

TH: I was about eleven or twelve by then.

TI: And describe the Tigard house. You said it was, it came with the land.

TH: A nice house.

TI: So how many rooms?

TH: Must have been maybe five rooms, had nice floors, nice and shiny, and beautiful roses out in front.

TI: So by this time, it sounds like your dad did pretty well then, for him to have...

TH: Well, not well, but had enough to buy the fertilizer and plants, and whatever needed to be done.

TI: But enough to move up from the Beaverton farm?

TH: To strawberries.

TI: To strawberries.

BY: So then did you go to high school in Tigard?

TH: I was just starting, I think. I don't remember if I went one full year, and starting sophomore. Because I was sixteen. And when my neighbor, I had a friend there, her name was Liala Wolf. Her mother took me to the high school to clean out my locker. She was crying because she knew more about what was going on than I did. She knew that we were going to have to evacuate (...).

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: So tell me... well, let's wait a little bit. I want to walk into that, so let's talk about December 7, 1941. And where were you when you heard about... so this is a Sunday. Where were you when you heard about it?

TH: I was at a friend's (...) birthday party. And it was a Japanese family, Hasuikis, and they brought me home, and that's all I remember about that. And that there's a war going on, I mean, that Japan and the United States are going to go to war.

TI: When you heard about this, did they stop the party and then people went home, or was the party about to end?

TH: No. I think we just disbanded, they wanted us to go home, because they knew that there's going to be a curfew and all that.

TI: And at the party, did people talk about it at all? Or what was the mood at the party?

TH: We were more or less (...) kids, but I don't think we talked about it, we just knew that we better get home because there's going to be a curfew. I didn't even know what curfew was, they said it's going to get black.

TI: And when you got home, what was it like at home with your parents and your older brother and older sister?

TH: They couldn't believe what was going on. Well, at that time, about a week later, my parents' friends came to the house and they heard that the parents will have to go to some kind of a camp, but the kids will not have to because they were born in the United States. And so they were kind of sad about that, that they'll have to go to camp and leave the kids. But since I had a brother that was five years older, they felt that he could take care of the farm and all that, but it didn't work out that way.

TI: Did you get a sense, because did your family think about changing any, when they heard this news, changing any of their farming practices? Like you mentioned your father had just gotten into strawberries. Did he think about anything in terms of doing anything differently?

TH: Nothing that I know of.

TI: So he was still hoping that he could farm and harvest the strawberries?

TH: Yeah, my brother would take over.

TI: Oh, that makes sense, okay. Because at that point, your brother was...

TH: Nineteen or twenty.

TI: Yeah, five years older than you were, so he'd be close to twenty or so.

TH: (...).

TI: That makes sense. So at this point, your brother had already graduated from high school. You mentioned...

TH: In those days, if it was a one-room school, and there was only one kid in the fifth grade, they would either put him back in fourth grade or move him up to sixth so that the teacher wouldn't have to worry about that one child. So he got to advance... he was sixteen when he graduated high school, and when he graduated college, he was twenty.

TI: So had he finished college when the war had started?

TH: When the war started. I went to his graduation in 1940, no, 1941, isn't that when the war started?

TI: Yeah, in December.

TH: He went to the University of Oregon, and so my Caucasian neighbor took me to the graduation.

TI: Okay, so down in Eugene, he went down there and he graduated. What did he graduate in?

TH: I think it was a combination of business and accounting.

TI: So he was very well qualified to take over the operations if he had an opportunity. He had a business degree, a college degree, or was he ever thinking that he would try to get jobs elsewhere?

TH: Well, when he graduated, he had a job offer right away. And when the war broke out, he said... you don't use the word "fired," he got laid off because it would harm the business.

TI: And do you know what kind of business it was?

TH: I don't know. It was in town, it had something to do with his accounting, I think some financial company.

TI: Okay. When you say "in town," in Portland?

TH: In Portland, yeah.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: Okay. So going back to your family, so after December 7th you went back, people were kind of shocked. So what else happened? Anything else? I mean, you talked about, like a week later, maybe hearing rumors that the Isseis would be sent away to a camp, but not the Niseis, not the U.S. citizens. Did anything else change with the family in terms of their day-to-day work? Like did you continue going to school? And I guess we can pick up the story that someone kind of helped you clean out your locker, but what happened at school for you, like the next day?

TH: After that I didn't go back to school. That was it. And I don't know, I didn't think anything of it then.

TI: So tell me about that. Why didn't you go back to school? Was it a family decision or did the school not want you there?

TH: That I don't know. I don't ever remember going back to school after she helped me clean my locker out.

TI: So tell me again. So who was this person who helped you?

TH: Her last name is Wolf, her daughter was Liala Wolf. And she was a neighbor, I mean, I used to play with her, we used to do a lot of things together.

TI: And so do you know why she would be there with you going to school to clean out a locker?

TH: Well, she knew I was a good friend of her daughter's because she and her daughter were both crying and I was wondering why are they crying for? I didn't think... they knew something I didn't know, I guess. To this day, I never thought about that.

TI: Now, were there any other Japanese students at your school?

TH: Just one other, that Hasuiki family. One other... what was his name? (Yoshihara). Anyway, he went to Annapolis, (his sister was Kay Yoshihara, married to an Abe). Kay Abe, have you ever heard of her?

TI: Yeah.

TH: Yeah. Her brother, they lived in Beaverton area, I mean, in Tigard area.

TI: And do you know if they had a similar situation where they stopped going to school also?

TH: That part is completely blank. Because I don't remember seeing them again.

TI: What was the name of your high school?

TH: Tigard.

TI: Tigard.

TH: Just Tigard High School.

TI: I'm curious now, I want to go back and look and see if I can find something in the newspapers and stuff about this.

TH: You mean his name? What is it?

TI: No, that's okay. I was just, if I can get any information about students at Tigard, if they had any policy.

TH: Yeah, because I don't remember going back after that at all.

TI: And so after that happened, was it pretty much you're staying home and things are just day-to-day about the same?

TH: It must have been just before evacuation, just before... we left May 2nd...

TI: Oh, so maybe it happened, so maybe you were going to school for a while and then you left.

TH: Yeah. But I don't remember going back after we cleaned out the locker.

TI: Do you remember any comments from your Caucasian friends after December 7th? Or any, like, you mentioned your friend the Loomis and things like that.

TH: Just kind of disappeared. The only people that stuck with me was that Ruby Rice, Margie (Bartel), and (Viola) Lierman. Even if they didn't live close by.

TI: Oh, interesting, okay. So you had a sense that they were still your friends even after December 7th.

TH: Right.

TI: How did you know that? Did you see them, like Ruby Rice?

TH: Well, Ruby Rice, they moved away, a place called Newburg. But anyway, we started writing letters. We wrote letters all our life until she passed away, I think it was two years ago. And Viola, I don't know, we wrote to Margie. It was sporadic, but we wrote, kept in touch, and we still do.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: So any other memories during that time between Pearl Harbor and the time you guys left the farm? Any other stories?

TH: I can't think of anything.

TI: There's one that you mentioned earlier about, something about the family burning?

TH: Oh, we were given a limit. We had to be out of the area by May 2nd. And the day before we left, my parents were burning all their Japanese books, Japanese pictures, everything. And one of the neighbors apparently thought we were sending signals, which I don't blame 'em, you know, this big bonfire going. In those days it didn't matter, I mean, it was okay to burn things. Anyway, a couple of FBI came, big burly fellows, and wanted to know what was going on. And my brother told him, "Well, we have to move." And they knew that, too. But anyway, they were very sympathetic and helped my parents clean the house out.

TI: And when you say sympathetic, as you were watching them, what kind of things would they do that made you feel like they were sympathetic?

TH: They helped my dad and them load the truck up, you know, pack things, whatever we wanted to take, which wasn't very much.

TI: And going back to the burning, you mentioned Japanese things, do you know why your dad, your family was burning these things?

TH: They just thought that that we shouldn't have anything Japanese. I mean, that's... their friends and they talked about it, and that would be bad.

TI: And when you said neighbors called the FBI, do you know which neighbors did that?

TH: Well, it was the neighbor that actually took care of the dog afterwards.

TI: So they were kind of friends of yours.

TH: They were friends, but, you know, I think they were the ones that thought we might be, but I don't know.

TI: Boy, that's complicated, let me think about this. So you think it's your, the family that took the dog, but yet, there must have been some feelings from you that they would call the FBI.

TH: Right, and to take care of our dog, and then later, a few months later, write and tell us they picked some of the strawberries.

TI: So how do you feel about this family? When you think about, you know, they took care of the dog but they potentially called the FBI, what do you think about this?

TH: I didn't blame 'em. I mean, we had a big fire going. Little furniture we had, we burned that. Because we had to clean the house out, because we were moving out. So I kind of felt that... I don't blame them for being nervous.

TI: And then it sounds like your family had, some of the family had conversations with them because they then took the dog?

TH: Right, yes.

TI: Do you know who in your family?

TH: No. I guess it was my brother maybe got a letter or whatever. Because I don't remember them having any children.

TI: Do you know who dropped the dog off at this family's...

TH: I think my poor dog just wandered to any house. We didn't know there was such a thing called Humane Society those days. Maybe they didn't have Humane Societies.

TI: Oh, so you think maybe the dog was, maybe just left at the house.

TH: It was.

TI: Okay, so it wasn't, like, given to the family.

TH: No.

TI: It was left there.

TH: Yeah.

TI: And then later on, the family took the dog.

TH: For my parents, it was sad to leave the strawberries. For me, the kids, it was sad to leave the dog.

TI: Well, so then, I guess, you're grateful that, knowing the dog's okay.

TH: Yes.

TI: Wow. By any chance, do you remember the name of the family?

TH: Name of the family that took the dog? I don't remember. Because they didn't have kids, so I never associated with them.

TI: That's a good story.

<End Segment 15> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 16>

TI: So you mentioned this date of May 2nd that you had to leave. And this wasn't to leave to a camp, it was actually to, it's called the "voluntary evacuation" period.

TH: Get out of Zone 1.

TI: So do you know what conversations were being had by your family in terms of deciding to do that rather than go to a camp?

TH: My dad read about concentration camps, I don't know where, but he didn't want to take us to the concentration camp. In a way, the way it ended up, I never saw my mother cry that much. When we got to Ontario, we didn't have any place to live, and didn't have food, so she said we should have gone to camp. Because when we got to Ontario, people wouldn't rent us a house because the neighbors were complaining. It was a different kind of life for my parents.

TI: And so tell me, okay, so your family at this point is you, your brother, your sister and your parents? So you're all together packing up, and what kind of vehicle did you have? Was it a truck?

TH: It was a ton and a half truck.

TI: Wow, so it was a big truck.

TH: Uh-huh, yeah.

TI: And what did you carry in the back, or how did you all do this? So was it, like, three people in the cab and two people in the back or something?

TH: And one cat. We took my little cat that I had. But somewhere or another, we got in there, three of us.

TI: And then in the truck, what did you bring?

TH: Oh, just our clothing, mostly, probably. That I don't remember.

TI: Any furniture like dresses or stuff like that?

TH: We left all that.

TI: And did you go with any other families?

TH: There was other families that did go, like the Inahara family, they took a different route because they thought, if they went the way we did -- we went through Pendleton and down -- they would have more trouble getting gas in case they ran out of gas. And they took a big tank full of gas on their truck. But we didn't have any trouble. When we got to the Blue Mountains, by then it was pretty late at night, and we stopped, my dad stopped at a, kind of a rundown motel. And this man was very sympathetic, he said, "I'll give you as much gas as you want and you can stay. You don't have to pay, you can stay in our motel," which wasn't real fancy, but it was fine. So we were lucky.

TI: It does seem like that was a very kind gesture.

TH: It was a very kind man. It's not on the West Coast, it's more on the, near Idaho in the Blue Mountains.

TI: Can you remember, like, what town that was in or anything that would...

TH: I don't. And every time we used to go to Ontario, I used to look to see if I could recognize it, but it's all changed around there.

TI: That's a good story.

BY: So your family went all by themselves to Ontario, but did your parents know that there were other -- how was it they chose Ontario? Did they know that there were other Japanese families there?

TH: Well, there was only Watanabes and Saitos. They were longtime residents there. And it was Mr. Watanabe that found this house that my dad, or we could all live in, or stay in. And that's the house that the people said, no, there would be too many Japanese, so, "Sorry, we can't rent it to you."

BY: And how did you get to know the Watanabes?

TH: I think it was Mr. Hasuiki knew about Mr. Watanabe. Didn't know him personally, but I guess maybe did, because he must have written to 'em or something.

BY: Were they all from Hiroshima-ken?

TH: That I don't remember. How they stick together?

BY: Yeah.

TH: So it's possible.

TI: And then you told that story that, when you got there and the house wasn't available, your mom, you said, she just cried and cried.

TH: Yeah. I imagine -- oh, she was thirty-nine years old, your parents too, or grandparents would be about that age. So thirty-nine, forty, my dad was in his fifties, because fifteen years' difference.

<End Segment 16> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 17>

TI: Okay, so she... yeah, must have been so hard for her. So no house, what did the family do? You have this, I'm picturing this visually, and you have this truck, you're there, it's probably dark, and someone says you have no place to live.

TH: Well, one family let us use their barn. And so we stayed in that barn for I don't know how long, and there was another family, name was Johnson, in Vale, said that, "You can pitch (a tent)" -- because we all had tents, strawberry farmers had tents, in case there's pickers that wanted to live there. So we had tents so this Mr. Johnson said, "If you want to pitch your tent, you can pitch as many as you want on my farm." He was another kind person. And they talked it over and they decided to sharecrop with him, so he helped us a lot. But we pitched tents.

TI: And do you remember how many... this is interesting, how many tents were there, were they the canvas tents?

TH: Yeah. I just remember our (family) had about three of them. And then the other Japanese people... let's see, the Hasuikis and Sunamotos and Hayashis. Seemed like there was one more, four families, we all had tents.

TI: Oh, so there were multiple families living on the Johnson farm?

TH: Right.

TI: And these tents all came from your family?

TH: No, we all...

TI: You all did because you were all strawberries.

TH: All berry farmers (had tents). And I don't know why they thought of taking, taking them with them, because we thought we were going to a house.

TI: Yeah, but I guess maybe some people thought just in case?

TH: (...).

TI: And how long did you... so you lived in a barn for about how long?

TH: Maybe just a couple of months, I think, at the most.

TI: And then how long did you live in tents?

TH: I just lived in it 'til the school started.

TI: And then what happened when school started?

TH: Oh, the Mormon people, I have to give them a lot of credit, they came and got all the kids. Because there were some that, my age or even some that were younger, because they didn't want to see us going to school from (a tent), I mean, going to catch the bus from the tent. So they came and I lived with the, their name was (...), AJ Plant, in Ontario, and I worked for my room and board, we all did that.

TI: I'm sorry, what was the name again?

TH: Plant, AJ Plant. I remember that, I don't know why.

BY: Was the name of the Mormon family?

TH: Family, yeah. I had to go to the Mormon church, but then that's okay.

TI: But they took in, I guess, the older kids who could be, like, houseboys and housegirls?

TH: Yeah. And there weren't too many of us, but there were other places that did that same thing (...).

TI: And so you did this, but your parents and I guess your brother stayed in the camps?

TH: Yes. Because Mr. Johnson had them sharecrop. And that part I didn't pay any attention, but I think they raised sugar beets.

TI: And eventually did they find other accommodations during the war, did they get a house?

TH: Right. And my brother, during the war, they wouldn't hire any Japanese. My brother started a grocery store in Ontario. So, and they had a big house.

TI: And this was during the war that he was able to...

TH: Uh-huh, still. And I don't remember the years or anything, but this Mr. Moore in Ontario, I don't know how my brother got acquainted with him, but he built a store. He said, "You just only have to pay me rent," so that's where my brother was. It was called Villa Park Market.

TI: So it sounds like there were people who went out of their way to help you and your family.

TH: They did. Yeah, I have no complaints about how we were treated.

TI: But on the other hand, were there other incidents where there were some people who didn't treat Japanese very well in that area? Like name calling?

TH: Well, especially in school, that's why I didn't want to go to Ontario school. Especially the boys were treated badly.

TI: So tell me about that.

TH: Well, I only know of one incident where one of these boys got a hold of someone's jacket and cut the sleeves off. And different little things, so you know there was some sort of hatred.

TI: And how many Japanese were at Ontario High school when you got there? Because you came from the west side along with other ones, and so did that, yeah, how many other Japanese were there?

TH: You know, I didn't stay there that long. I wanted to get out so badly. That's when I had that opportunity to take that test. I just knew that, I don't even remember going to school there, but I know I did, because I walked with the neighbor's kid to school.

TI: How about the tension? I mean, before the war, you had Japanese families who lived in the Ontario area, like the Watanabes and the Saitos. And so I'm guessing there was a prewar Japanese community, and then all of a sudden you have this "voluntary evacuation," kind of the problem that you were there originally where they said, oh, there were so many Japanese that they didn't want to rent that house. Was there, do you recall any tensions between the prewar Japanese in Ontario and the ones who came later?

TH: I never had occasion, ever. In fact, I had a couple of hakujin friends. In fact, Mr. Moore's daughter, Dee Moore and I became good friends, so they were a sympathetic family, actually.

TI: Or did you make any friends with any of the Japanese that were there before the war? Like anyone from...

TH: Oh, the Saitos and the Watanabes? Uh-huh, yeah.

TI: So you made friends with their kids?

TH: Right, yeah, and they were all our age or a little older.

TI: And did you ever sense any resentment from them, that you guys were coming?

TH: No. That too many Japanese were coming? No, never.

TI: Because I heard those stories, like in Spokane, Washington, that there was a prewar Japanese... and then a lot of Japanese from the west side or even resettling from the camps, and there was sometimes a tension between the two because... so just curious.

TH: Right. No, we were all... in fact, with the Watanabes, they had a Stan and a Jack, no girls. And then the Saitos had Paul and Abe, and I don't think they had any girls either. But they all associated with my brother and they did things.

TI: Okay, good.

<End Segment 17> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 18>

TI: So going on to Ontario High School, you mentioned you took a test. So at this point, what grade were you in?

TH: I was a junior. (...) I took (the test) because I just wanted to get out of Ontario, and I passed.

TI: And so you took this test, as a junior you passed, so what did that mean? What could you do?

TH: Oh, we'd get to go to school in Boise. I never paid... I never even thought of it then, I just kept going to school, but I didn't pay any tuition, so I guess it was kind of like a... I think what they wanted to do was people out in the working world.

TI: Well, so this test you took at Ontario High School, could any student take that test?

TH: Uh-huh.

TI: And this was a test, if you passed, would sort of accelerate you into, to go to...

TH: Skip senior year.

TI: And go to Boise State.

TH: Right. And I don't know if any others took the test. Maybe they wanted to continue going to school in Ontario, probably. I just wanted to get out.

TI: So I didn't ask this question. So it sounds like you were a pretty good student to have done this.

TH: Oh, I thought I was just average. [Laughs]

TI: Well, so when you think of your friends that you mentioned, how would they describe you?

TH: Very independent. [Laughs]

TI: And why would they say that?

TH: Because when... and Martha Umemoto was her name, she decided she'd go to Boise with me. She got so homesick she came home. I didn't think any... I said, "Why are you so homesick?" So I was able to make do with what I had to, besides, I guess. I didn't have much.

TI: And when you took the test and could go to Boise State, what did your parents think? Did they think that was a good thing?

TH: They thought it was a good thing, well, just because of the education. And they knew I didn't want to go to Ontario High School any more.

TI: And while you were doing this, what was your older sister doing?

TH: I think she had gotten married when she was about twenty-two. So she was already... I can't remember, I think that's what it was.

TI: And did she marry someone from the Ontario area?

TH: No, from Seattle.

TI: And how did she meet someone from Seattle living in Ontario?

TH: Probably at a dance or something.

TI: When you got to Boise State, so this is in Idaho, were there other Japanese at Boise State?

TH: June Oda, which I have to tell you about her. Your mother and her sister were good friends.

BY: Was Lillian her sister? Was her sister named Lillian?

TH: (...).

BY: Yeah, because my mom did have a best friend named Lillian.

TH: She lives in California. June and I were really good friends, she was going to Boise State, and she went on to Oberlin college and became a pianist. Anyway, and then there was a Jack Fuji from Oregon, related to, some way to a Dave Fukuhara. Who else? There were only about three or four of us.

TI: And where did the people, like for you, where did you stay, where did you live?

TH: I worked for my room and board at the Deanery, he was a minister at that (St. Mark Episcopal Church). We all worked for room and board, got paid a dollar a week. [Laughs]

TI: But your tuition was free and you got room and board, you had to work.

TH: Yeah, so that was fair enough. Because they didn't overwork me.

<End Segment 18> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 19>

TI: So never, even though Idaho was a state where they had Japanese Americans in camps, Minidoka, which was south of Boise. When you were at Boise, did you know about Minidoka?

TH: Uh-huh, because I went to visit my friends there.

TI: Oh, so tell me about that. Who was at Minidoka? So these were people from the Portland area?

TH: Fumi Sakamoto, used to be Fumi Kaga. And a few, I can't remember who else I used to go visit. Most of them came out to Boise to work for their room and board. They didn't go to school just to get out of camp. But anyway, I went to visit her, I remember.

TI: And how did you go down there? Did you get a ride with someone?

TH: I think I took the bus to Twin Falls. I don't know how I got to the camp, but they must have a bus to go to the camp.

TI: And what did you think when you went to Minidoka? What were your impressions when you got there?

TH: It was like a vacation. And you know, just a lot of Japanese, and it was kind of nice, I thought.

TI: And was it hard to get into the camp? Like did you just have to check in or register?

TH: I don't think, I just think I just walked in. They did have the sentry or whatever you call them up there. But nobody asked me any questions.

TI: So when you were in there and saw your friend, was it just visiting them or did you partake in some of their social activities like dancing?

TH: No, just visited. I think I just stayed that one day.

TI: Do you recall your friends being curious what Boise was like? Because you mentioned some of them went up there later to the house for room and board? Do you remember any of the conversations?

TH: No. But there were a lot of them working, they came from camp. And then the fellows all came and worked on the farms, Ontario area.

BY: Do you remember thinking, "Boy, I'm sure glad that I didn't have to go to Minidoka, here I was able to go to Boise State?" Did you have that kind of thought at all?

TH: No, I didn't think anything of that.

TI: So how long did you attend Boise State?

TH: It was a junior college at the time I entered, and then it became a four-year college. So I finished my credit.

TI: So you finished four years there?

TH: Uh-huh. And I didn't pay any tuition so I never even thought of it. I just kept going to school. Isn't that strange that I wouldn't ask?

TI: Yeah, who was paying your tuition? Was it the state?

TH: I kind of think that it was, I stayed with this Dr. Barco and his wife, working for my room and board. And I think he might have been paying, they might have been paying it, I think. And I never asked. [Laughs] I never even thought of it. Isn't that terrible? I knew that they must have... June and I talked about it, but she didn't think anything of it either because her parents were probably just paying it and we just went to school.

<End Segment 19> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 20>

TI: So after you graduated, any memories or stories about Boise State that stand out that you want to share?

TH: No, I enjoyed it. I joined the journalism club or whatever they called it, different things, joined everything I could, that could have some fun.

TI: That sounds good. So what happened after you graduated from Boise State, then what happened?

TH: [Narr. note: my cap and gown cost $35.] I moved to Seattle.

TI: And this is where your sister was?

TH: Uh-huh.

TI: And why Seattle versus Ontario? Because I'm assuming your parents and your brother are still in Ontario?

TH: Right. And my brother was doing pretty well, he didn't (waste) his education, anyway, but he used it in his business, and he did it pretty well. In fact, he was one of the first Masons, which I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Anyway, he and one of the Saitos were invited to join the Masons, so they went to Salt Lake City, and that part, you know, it's all secret, I guess. [Laughs]

TI: Yeah, I don't know much about it.

TH: (...).

TI: But yeah, why Seattle versus Ontario?

TH: Because I thought there was more opportunities in Seattle. Although, at that time, we always had to apologize. You know, there were a lot of ads in the paper. Tons of ads in those days. They're starting to do that again, aren't they, putting ads in the paper? Employment ads or whatever they call it. Anyway, first thing you say is I'm a Japanese, but I'd like to apply for this job or whatever. And they could deny you over the phone rather than you appearing in their office.

TI: So this is something that you did when you would call?

TH: Everybody. Or even, if you want to rent an apartment, if you see it in the paper you'd call and say that I'm Japanese and they'll say, "I don't want you." (...)

TI: Well, going back to that, so when you say that, like, "I'm Japanese and I want an apartment," or, "I'm Japanese and I'm interested in this job," what would the response be if someone, were they direct in saying, "Oh, I don't want to because you're Japanese"? Or would they say something like, "Oh, we don't have that job anymore"? Or what kind of responses would you...

TH: Well, my friend that applied for an apartment on Beacon Hill, hers was, "We don't want any Japs here."

TI: Okay, so they would just say that.

TH: Right. And so, but for me, I didn't have any experience like that, I was lucky. And this Mr. Martine, when I called his company, said, "I apologize. I'm Japanese but I'd like to apply for that job." He says, "I don't care what you are, come on over, I want to hire you." He was the nicest, he was another nice person. He owned all the... he was an attorney, but he owned a lot of NP Bank Note companies that, I don't know how to explain that, but had connections with the banks. But he owned this, all this company. He was a big... his office that I worked in was not big, but it was just an average size, but he was big in the country.

TI: And I'm sorry, what kind of company was it? I mean, it was financial?

TH: He owned NP Bank Note company.

TI: NP Bank Note.

TH: But his company that I applied for was security printing, it was a printing company.

TI: And what type of work did you do with him?

TH: I did the bookkeeping and just general office.

TI: And how many other workers were in the office?

TH: There were seven or eight.

TI: And any other Japanese?

TH: Hiro Hasegawa, which is Bob's -- you know him -- his dad. Yeah, I worked with him a long time.

TI: And he did similar work?

TH: He was a pressman, he did printing. (...). It was (Sat) Hirata. But anyway, there was a couple of Japanese.

TI: So I want to go back when you said that you would notify people that you were Japanese before you got a job or, like, apartment. Do you recall who told you to say that?

TH: We all just automatically did it. Rather than go to the company and have them say, have them tell you, it was easier on the phone. You could just hang up on them.

TI: Oh, okay. So in some ways, it was to avoid that feeling.

TH: Yeah, that hurt.

TI: That you were feeling, okay.

TH: It never happened to me, so it probably would hurt, even to get it on the phone.

TI: I just have to ask this question, just because you mentioned Bob Hasegawa, so I know Bob. So what was his dad like?

TH: Hiro, (nice person, very talented).

TI: Yeah, Hiro. So did Hiro come from camp? Was he like in Minidoka or something?

TH: That I don't know. I just met him at Security Printing Company. Do you ever see Bob?

TI: I do, yeah.

TH: Yeah, tell him that we used to have, not just me, but all the workers. We'd all eat together, bring our lunches, and Hiro would always bring some milk. [Laughs]

TI: Okay, I'll do that.

TH: I worked with him maybe a couple years.

TI: I'm curious, because you knew people who had friends who went to camp, and you worked with people who went to camp. But you didn't have that experience, but yet you easily could have been. Do you see any differences between people who were incarcerated at places like Minidoka versus people who weren't? People who grew up or moved to Eastern Washington?

TH: (...)?

TI: Yeah. Maybe not feelings, but maybe just in their demeanor? Have you seen any changes?

TH: I didn't. I didn't feel any.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 21>

TI: Okay. So you're, I think of you, so you come into Seattle, you're a young woman, what were your impressions of Seattle versus Beaverton or Boise? What was Seattle like for you?

TH: I didn't remember any...

TI: Well, in terms of, did it seem like a bigger city?

TH: Oh, of course.

TI: And what about the Japanese American community? Did they seem different?

TH: I moved into the YWCA, so they were all hakujins.

TI: In downtown?

TH: Yeah, Fifth and whatever. So other than that... I just associated with Japanese here, though

TI: And where was your sister living when she was in Seattle?

TH: In Seattle, I mean, on Spruce Street. Lot of Japanese around there.

TI: She was already married by this time?

TH: Uh-huh.

TI: So what was it like being a single woman living at the YWCA downtown Seattle?

TH: We had a lot of fun. [Laughs]

TI: So tell me about that. What kind of fun did you guys have?

TH: I think the third floor was the kitchen, and we can cook in there. And you know, you could cook for yourself or invite your neighbor or something. It was a lot of fun. And one night we decided we'd go to, this Caucasian girl said, "Let's go down and see what they do with the shuffleboard." And I said, "Okay, where's that?" And she said, "At that tavern right there." [Laughs] So that was my first experience in a tavern to see what shuffleboard was, but I got scared and I said, "I don't want to stay here." [Laughs]

TI: Because it was a bar, it was a tavern.

TH: Yeah. But she used to like to play that. I don't know, you scoot the round thing.

TI: And when you were in Seattle, did you do anything with the Japanese American community?

TH: Because I went to the Buddhist church. Right away I met Yoshi (Mizoguchi), Yoshi Miyauchi and Anna Kurata. And so we always did things together.

TI: And what would be some of the activities that you would do together?

TH: Well, we invited each other to... see, we all, I worked for my room and board and I can't remember. And Yoshi Hiro, her dad owned N-P Hotel. So anyway, we went to each other's place to eat or cook or something.

TI: And were you a little different because you lived at the YWCA? Or did the other girls live in similar places?

TH: No, Anna (...) had her parents. No, they all lived at home, I was the only one that was homeless. [Laughs]

TI: And how would you compare the Seattle Betsuin to Portland?

TH: Or Ontario?

TI: Or Ontario? Because the Seattle one, that's a pretty nice Buddhist church.

TH: I thought, wow, it's a big church.

TI: They have a gym there and all those things.

TH: It was pretty nice.

<End Segment 21> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 22>

TI: Okay. How about when you're in Seattle, and you start seeing Japanese American men returning either from the war or other places, did you notice anything different about them? Because some of them had just fought in a war, and it was a pretty horrendous experience for some of them. Did you notice anything about that?

TH: Not really. My husband was, he went into MIS because he didn't want to get dirty. Those that go in the army really work hard. So he joined the MIS.

TI: So was he stationed in Japan during the occupation?

TH: Philippines.

TI: I'm sorry, what?

TH: Philippines.

TI: Okay, so he was in the Philippines after the war.

TH: No, before it ended. Near the end, but they always had to have two Caucasians with them, because you couldn't tell the enemy. And so he was there, I don't know, maybe six months before the war ended.

TI: And do you know, when he did his MIS training, where he was trained?

TH: At Presidio.

TI: And so he was in an early, he was one of the early, he was one of the first classes?

TH: Right. And they had to learn, I don't know, ninety thousand kanjis before they could graduate. So his friend, we're getting back to when he was seventeen. He was seventeen, his friends were, all three of them were seventeen, and their mothers signed for them because (...) they didn't want to go back to camp. So anyway, he passed. He had a pretty good memory, so thank goodness, (...) and his friends couldn't make it. I don't know how he could learn even ten of those in nine months.

TI: And so how did you meet your husband?

TH: In Ontario. He came out from camp, and his friends, they were pretty young at that time.

TI: And so this is something that I have to bring up, because I was confused originally. So your maiden name is Hayashi, and your husband's last name is also Hayashi. So was there, I mean... there must have been some kind of jokes or something about that, having the same last name?

TH: Well, one hakujin girl asked me, "Is your husband your cousin?" [Laughs] That's the only time.

TI: "Are you related?"

TH: Yeah.

TI: Oh, that's funny. So where was George's family from?

TH: Tacoma.

TI: And how did you two meet? You said you met in Ontario, how did you meet?

TH: Probably in the sugar beet field someplace.

TI: So this was, at what point during, this is after the war that you met?

TH: No, during the war.

TI: Oh, during the war? So he was in camp?

TH: Yeah, I was sixteen and he was probably seventeen, he was a year older. So that goes back quite a ways.

TI: Oh, so you met him before he went into the service.

TH: Yeah, I just knew of him. And actually, the main reason he wanted to join the army is to get out of camp and the GI Bill. Otherwise he said he'd never be able to afford it.

BY: So in other words, he was on work release from Minidoka in a sugar beet field, and you were also there somehow in the summer, maybe you weren't going to school and you met him there, right?

TH: Right.

BY: Oh, okay. That makes sense.

TI: And when you first met him, did you start dating?

TH: No, I just thought they were a bunch of weird guys. [Laughs]

TI: So when did, did you guys keep in contact during the war?

TH: Right, yeah. He wrote several times.

TI: And so during this time, did you think of him or call him your boyfriend?

TH: Not really, just somebody to write to.

TI: So when did the two of you start more formally dating then?

TH: Must have been after the war. [Laughs]

TI: [Laughs] Not very memorable. So do you remember your, like your first date with him or anything like that?

TH: No, I can't remember that.

TI: Or where were you when you first started dating?

TH: I must have been, I don't know, seems like I was in Boise.

TI: Okay. And during that time, do you remember where he was living, where he lived? You mentioned his family was from Tacoma. Was he back on the west side?

TH: Well, he was going to school in Michigan.

TI: Okay.

TH: That part I kind of don't remember much.

TI: And then after the war, after you graduated from Boise State. And after he finishes, you're in Seattle, is that where you kind of connect again?

TH: Right.

TI: That makes sense. And you mentioned, yeah, he became a pharmacist, so he went to school in pharmacy.

TH: Michigan. And that was another case. When he graduated, he got a job in Wisconsin, and they had to let him go because it was "harming the business."

TI: Oh, because he was Japanese?

TH: Right, because he was Japanese. And so that must have, because he, I forget what year he graduated college. Oh, in 1951. So there was still some prejudice going on back there. And he always bragged about the Midwestern people, how nice they are.

TI: But in Wisconsin they had let him go.

TH: Yeah, the boss said, "I really like you," but they had some comments, probably.

TI: And so when he worked in Seattle as a pharmacist, who did he work for?

TH: Valley Medical Center. But before that, he couldn't find a job, so he took this job in Alaska where they rolled dice.

TI: Where they rolled dice?

TH: He rolled dice if you buy some, you get a prescription and get it filled, you rolled dice for the money. And don't ask me how that works. [Laughs] He didn't last long there because the mosquitos were so big.

TI: It sounds like maybe an incentive for people to buy their...

TH: He said it was all or nothing, something like that. But anyway, he had some bad experiences, too. But he worked at Valley Medical Center until he retired.

TI: And did the two of you have any children?

TH: No children.

<End Segment 22> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 23>

TI: So I'm at the end of my questions. The last question being -- and we can keep going -- but when you think back on your life, any kind of reflections on your life? You seem like a very positive person, and so I'm just wondering, anything that comes to mind in terms of what you think is important in life?

TH: That's important? No, I never thought of that. I still like to do volunteer work. When Keiro first opened on Martin Luther King Way how many years ago, forty-something years ago. But I still volunteer with them. That was one, it's satisfaction. I feel great about that.

TI: Well, this is kind of an interesting question, because you started volunteering when they first started. I'm trying to remember, was it last year or the year before? So they shut down, right, their nursing home? How did you feel about that?

TH: Terrible. I still feel terrible. I'd like to know why. It had something to do with money.

TI: And so to you, you feel terrible because they had to shut down when maybe they didn't need to? Or you just wish they hadn't done that?

TH: Yeah. Why did they have to? We raised a lot of money for... we bought about three or four vans through our Ayame-Kai. Poor management, I guess.

TI: Yeah, because I think about you having volunteered for, you said, over forty years, and then having to watch it close down.

TH: Yeah, it was sad.

TI: And it seemed to happen fairly fast, too.

TH: Very fast, yeah.

<End Segment 23> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 24>

BY: I just want to know about this rock throwing incident at Southcenter. I don't think I know that story. Can you just tell us what happened and when it happened?

TH: Oh, about six months ago now. I was at this stoplight, just as you drive into Southcenter, and a Black girl with a poodle walking across the street, and she leans down -- you know, the dog could run out in the street. But anyway, she bends down, gets a handful of rocks, and she throws them. And I thought, well, what's she doing? And it hit my car, and then she bent down again and got some bigger rocks and threw it again. Anyway, so then I knew that she was aiming at me. And so then the light changed, so I drove into Southcenter parking lot. And the man behind me followed me in a black, a big nice car, and I didn't think anything of it. And he says, "I really want to comment on, you didn't lose your temper." And I said, "Well, I was so shocked, I didn't have time." He said, "If that was me, I would have beat the... out of her." And I said, well, "A woman you would?" And he says, "Yeah. If she hit my car," -- he had a nice car -- because that second handful would have broken the window... because she had big rocks. Anyway, and then I went into Southcenter to see my friend, she works in the cosmetics. And she wasn't there, so I was telling this young girl, "When Dolly comes, will you tell her what happened to me?" And this girl starts crying and she hugs me, she says, "I'm so sorry." And then I thought it must have been serious. So she called their security (and told him), because it's right near Southcenter, their Nordstrom's. And he didn't come right away, but later on, when I was still talking to her, I was there maybe half an hour because she thought Dolly would be coming back. Anyway, he wanted to know if I would file charges, "I got a picture of her." Because, you know, Black girl with a white poodle walking, it was easy to spot. It was lucky he saw her. He said, "Don't you want to file charges?" And I said, "I don't ever want to see her again," but actually I should have. Because about a month later, one of the other security guards said, "Are you the person that had this problem?" And I said, "Yes." He said, "We had another occasion, and I wish that you two" -- and this other girl didn't want to file charges either." But anyway, just for the protection of the Asians.

BY: So did she say anything to you or just throw the rocks?

TH: Just threw the rocks.

BY: And the second person who was targeted was also Asian?

TH: (Yes). He was a Caucasian man (that followed me).

TI: But I wanted to follow up. You said, later on, did this woman do something later?

TH: Apparently, because the security said, "We had another occasion, and we asked her if she wanted to file charges," and she didn't want to, she was like me, never wanted to see her again.

BY: And that person was also Asian?

TH: Yes, uh-huh.

BY: But they got a picture of her somehow?

TH: Well, this first security man found her. He went right away after that girl told him.

BY: Interesting, wow.

TH: If you ever see a Black girl with a white poodle, don't stop.

BY: That sounds a little like racial profiling. [Laughs] Wow, that's scary.

TH: You know, another thing that happened when we were in Vale, it was soon after we went there, the fellows and they were all pretty young yet, too. They decided they wanted to go for a ride so they drove, from Vale that you could get to Bend. I don't know how far. But when they got to Bend, the people there called the FBI and picked them up. I never want to see Bend again, myself, it must be a nice place, though. But the FBI kept the car and drove them back to Vale and brought them home, but they kept the car to search it for contrabands or whatever they searched.

TI: That's what I thought. I thought Bend was...

BY: Was Bend in or out? Must be right about in the dividing line.

TI: Yeah, I always thought Bend was outside the zone, but we'll have to look. Do you know why? Is it because they were just, they were suspicious?

BY: Yeah, four Asian men driving around, suspicious, yeah.

TI: Because I think they were outside the zone.

BY: Well, isn't that Zone 2? We're not supposed to be in Zone 2?

TI: Yeah, so was that zone...

BY: I would think so. Because from Salem, it's not too far from Salem.

TI: I always think of the mountains and they're on the east side, but...

BY: Yeah, I don't know where it would be located, but it must have been off limits.

TI: Well, so (Toshiko), that's all the questions we have, and you did a wonderful job. Hopefully it wasn't too hard or too painful.

BY: You did great.

TH: I did?

BY: Absolutely, yeah.

<End Segment 24> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.