<Begin Segment 21>

BY: Oh, could I... we're still recording, right? Can I ask you, I would like, I don't think you've put this on tape before. This is going back to Uncle Min and his decision to travel with (Mike Masaoka's brother, Joe Grant Masaoka), to Heart Mountain, I guess, to talk to the draft resisters. What is your understanding of what happened and what might have motivated him to do that?

HY: Boy, I don't know. I'm not qualified to answer that.

BY: But do you know that story?

HY: I knew he did it, but I never gave that much thought. But I know that Mike was a superpatriot, he wanted the Nikkei to go out there, die for the country and all that sort of stuff. I don't know that Min felt that way. Maybe he did at the same time. Because, you know, at one time, JACL and Min had fallen apart, they were kind of enemies. And then, like you say, Min and Mike Masaoka did go to try to drum up recruits for the army.

BY: But your understanding of that is a little different, too.

TI: Well, so my understanding -- this comes from other historians who looked at some of the documentation -- so they went to go visit the Heart Mountain draft resisters before their trial, and then your brother, one of his roles was trying to convince them to... because the JACL didn't want the draft resisters, the trial and everything to go on. So his role was to try to convince him otherwise. So he had a private meeting with him, I think without Mike Masaoka, I think it was just your brother.

HY: Oh, Frank Emi and his group?

TI: Yeah, Frank Emi and that group. And I think Frank would say things like, so they confided in your brother, but they were under the impression it was more confidential. And Frank said that eventually that conversation ended up with the FBI.

HY: Oh, that could well have been.

TI: So they felt betrayed by that, because they felt that there was some kind of client-attorney privilege.

HY: But how would Frank Emi know that?

TI: I guess it came up at the trial, and actually it was used as evidence against him.

HY: I wouldn't be surprised at all.

TI: Because you know your brother was such a civil rights icon, and even the community, his stand against the government, people felt that they could do that. So that was Frank Emi's...

BY: And it seems like such a, in a way, contradictory thing for him to do.

HY: People are contradictory.

BY: [Laughs] I agree, I know that. But I was just wondering... and I know that Holly has --

HY: Well, no, it wouldn't surprise me if actually Min did go to the FBI and tell them, oh, Mike Masaoka -- it wouldn't surprise me because Mike was, from what I hear, and know Mike, he wouldn't do that. I don't know about Min, I think maybe Min might. I think any one of us might, given the right circumstances and philosophy at the time. Draft resisters at Heart Mountain, that was a tough one. And they had a lot of rights on their side, they had a lot of moral right.

BY: Okay, I just wondered if you had any insight.

HY: So I can't really answer that, and I guess nobody will know the answer to that one now, because Holly's gone.

BY: And Holly didn't even know?

HY: No.

BY: Her speculation was that her... Uncle Min resisting the curfew was because he felt like it was unconstitutional. Whereas the draft resisters, it's like...

HY: Well, that was constitutional, but it was wrong.

BY: She thinks that's why he... it seems contradictory.

HY: Well, it makes sense.

BY: That in his mind, one was unconstitutional, one was...

HY: Okay, that was strictly legal.

BY: Yes, but he was a lawyer. So that from...

HY: But the moral equation didn't...

BY: Of course, of course. But that was her theory as to why he...

HY: Sounds reasonable. But as I say, it wouldn't surprise me if Min and Mike did go to the FBI. Because I read my father's records and man, some of his real close friends did [inaudible] on him, because it's in the record.

BY: His white friends or his Nikkei?

HY: Yeah. I think of Penn Crum, who was an optometrist and member of the Rotary Club, he blasted to the FBI. So I have the record.

BY: Yeah, okay. Thanks, Dad.

HY: All right, we all done?

BY: Yeah.

<End Segment 21> - Copyright © 2022 Densho. All Rights Reserved.