Densho Digital Repository - Victor Ikeda Interview

Densho Digital Repository
Densho Visual History Collection
Title: Victor Ikeda Interview
Narrator: Victor Ikeda
Interviewers: Tom Ikeda (primary), Barbara Yasui (secondary)
Location: Seattle, Washington
Date: February 11, 2022
Densho ID: ddr-densho-1000-487

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: So, we're going to start. And I always start with, kind of, where we are and the date. So today is Friday, February 11, 2022. And we're at the Lakeshore, senior... Lakeshore senior...

VI: It's called Lakeshore Retirement.

TI: Okay, Lakeshore Retirement.

VI: Then they added the assisted living part. So you have two types of people living here. One is a retirement community and others is assisted living type, that needs help. So a lot of the programs that they have here are based on a retirement community. So a lot of the assisted living type of people don't participate, as far as I can see.

TI: Okay, good. And before we go further, I have to introduce you. I think in terms of the documents you sign, Victor Junichi Ikeda. And in the room helping we have Dana Hoshide, who is running the camera, and Barb Yasui, who's helping with the interview. And then I have to introduce myself. And full disclosure, so my name is Tom Ikeda, I'm the executive director of Densho, but I'm also your son, and this is the first formal interview that we've done in the twenty-six years at Densho. So this is exciting to me. And the other thing I wanted to mention is, this isn't going to be a traditional oral history interview because you did one back in 2007, so that's, like, fifteen years ago, with Richard Potashin with the National Park Service. And he interviewed you in Las Vegas at a Minidoka reunion. And so a lot of your life story you already did, and so I'm not going to repeat the same questions. I'm actually going to dive into more detail on just some parts of your story. So it might be, to the viewer, maybe a little choppy in terms of it, but I'll try to provide context as we go on. The other thing I just want to mention briefly is that this is conducted on behalf of Densho and it's been funded by a grant from the OSPI, Washington State Office of Superintendent of Public Instruction.

Okay, so that's all the, kind of, the formalities. And for the purposes of the interview, I'm going to just call you Dad, I'm not going to call you Victor or Junks. We'll get into your names later, but I'm just going to call you Dad. So, Dad, I was looking at your previous interview, and also your older sister Hannah's interview. And one of the early -- and this might be some of your earliest childhood memories -- was some time you spent up in Friday Harbor where your parents worked at a salmon cannery. Can you describe that a little bit in terms of what you know about Friday Harbor and why you and your family went up there?

VI: Well, to begin with, the supervisor or the person named Mr. Sawoka, he lived in Friday Harbor, and he was from the same prefecture in Japan as my folks. And that's where we got good friends with my parents. So he had my parents to help find people to do cannery work at Friday Harbor. Friday Harbor for us was someplace that we never thought we'd ever be there, because it was just an island in the middle of Puget Sound. We get there and there was really nothing at Friday Harbor. There was a dock where, if I remember, the ferry dock, and then, a couple of blocks down was the cannery pier where the cannery was on. And above that place they had living quarters. They had living quarters like for my parents because we had kids, but they had, I think, barracks type for the cannery workers. The cannery operated, I think, if I remember, every other year. Because the sockeye salmon only run every other year, the big runs. The other years, they don't run that much, so whether they opened the cannery or not, we don't know. But with the sockeyes running, they want all the help they can get. Not only our family was there, but... now I forget their name. Yorita family, because I met George Yorita, who was about my age, when we were at Friday Harbor.

TI: I'm curious, when you mentioned, like that family Yorita, was that family also from the same prefecture?

VI: No.

TI: But it's interesting when you were saying earlier how your dad essentially, because of the same prefecture, which I'm thinking of our family history, so that would be Kagawa?

VI: Kagawa-ken.

TI: Kagawa-ken. And that's on the island of, near Takamatsu, that area there.

VI: See, what happens is when people come from Japan, they feel much more comfortable with people from the same ken. And as far as Kagawa-ken was concerned...

TI: It was tiny, right? I mean, in terms of the number of people here from Kagawa-ken was really small.

VI: Very small. The Tsuboi family and we had about three or four different families, but that was it. So he became very close to the people from the old ken. Even when we went to California, we would stop in and visit somebody that came from the same ken as my parents.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: That's interesting. So we haven't really talked so much about this. So how did you know who was, which families were in your ken? How did that come about?

VI: Because they were close, so we would meet their families, like the Tsuboi family. But there were quite a few bachelors that came, and also couples that didn't have children. So they were very close.

TI: So that's funny, I have to... and I think you know this story. But a long time ago, when I was in middle school, junior high school, it was kind of like this middle school crush I had on Bev Kashino, and her grandparents were Tsuboi. And I vaguely remember her mentioning how her grandparents were so excited that we were kind of dating. And so it's all based on the ken. I mean, that's how the Tsuboi, her Tsuboi grandparents knew your parents, from that ken, and that's why they were really close.

VI: Right. So the Kagawa-ken is on Shikoku island, which is a small island that not too many people come from. Usually people came to Japan, places like Hiroshima.

TI: Oh, you mean Kagoshima?

VI: Kagoshima. Poor, lot of the poor areas that they came to find more work.

TI: So was Shikoku different? It didn't have the same economic downturn as kind of these other places? Because not as many people came?

VI: Yeah, I think it was kind of isolated, so they didn't feel the different, I guess, variety of unemployment, and they were much more stable than the mainland of Japan.

TI: Yeah, so I want to go back to this ken connection, this is kind of interesting as I think about this. So Louise Kashino, she's a Tsuboi, so she came from the same ken as you did. So did you know her growing up, because of the closeness?

VI: Yes. Well, we knew each other, but they lived not close by, so we didn't associate with them. We got to associate with Lou probably after the war, much closer. In fact, the year before she died, we says, "Well, we'll have a kenjinkai, and we can take turns being president -- "

TI: Because there's only two of you left.

VI: "-- and vice president.' There were only two of us.

TI: But I'm trying to get a sense of the, as I think about this... so you mentioned earlier how people from the same ken feel close to each other. I also think about your parents' generation and how they would go back to their ken, their village or their town, and oftentimes they would get married there. And part of that was to get married by the same...

VI: Baishakunin?

TI: Baishakunin, but that same area. So was there every any kind of -- I never asked you this -- any pressure? Because both you and Louise came from the same ken that, oh, eventually the two of you should get together?

VI: [Laughs] No.

TI: There was nothing like that. So that wasn't so much for the Niseis, I was thinking, because there were so few.

VI: Because the only one from the Tsuboi family that I got close to was Louise, because she was my age or close to my age.

TI: Yeah, so that's why I was wondering, if your parents and Louise's parents ever thought, oh, because they're the same age...

VI: No, I don't think so.

TI: So there wasn't that pressure for Niseis?

VI: My parents never got into that type of...

TI: Yeah, I was just curious.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: So going back to Friday Harbor, about how old, you mentioned, I think, about three years, or maybe a couple years that you were there, but not every year, it was like every other year you would go? About how old were you when you were at Friday Harbor?

VI: I think probably the first time we went there, I must be about four years old.

TI: Okay, so really young.

VI: So only thing, I can't remember the first time we went there. But the last time we went, I was old enough to play on the beaches and things like that. So then I remember certain things. And some of the things that I remember, like I think I might have mentioned to you about how when you have big low tides at Puget Sound, it was an island, not too far away from where we were. And you could almost walk to that. But what happens is, when you get that low tide, the people that are working, the Isseis that are working there, we'd go and get octopus. What they would do is they'd take a long stick, and at the end, they'd put a can with lye in there. So they would go down by the beach where the water is still low. And if they spot a cave or a crevice where they had clamshells in front, and that was where you'd find octopus. So they'd stick that pole with that lye in there to irritate them, so they'll come out, then they'll grab them, take them to shore, flip 'em upside down, and they cut their beaks out, which would kill them. I kind of remember that. And they used to tell us about it. Usually they do it at night, because that's when the tide is the lowest. So I remember them telling us their story.

TI: And did you ever see that, or you just heard them? Did you ever go down there and watch?

VI: I never saw it because it's usually at night. But you know, in the morning you see the dead octopus.

TI: And was that viewed as kind of a delicacy by the Issei in terms of eating?

VI: Yeah. It was a delicacy for the Isseis.

TI: And how would they prepare it?

VI: I have no idea. Because at that age, I didn't eat it.

TI: So it wasn't like... you don't remember, like sashimi where they would slice it up.

VI: I'm sure that's what they did, but I had no idea what they did with the octopus.

TI: Boy, that's an interesting story. I'd never heard...

VI: Those are the little things that I could remember when I was that young.

TI: Anything else that struck you about... did you ever get a chance to go into the cannery and see what that looked like when you were a kid?

VI: Not really, I was too small for that. Only thing I did was fish off the pier. I mean, you put a line down, and that's about all.

TI: And you mentioned there wasn't much there. Because now, if you go to Friday Harbor, it's a small town, it's a major tourist area, it's one of the destination places in Washington state to visit. But when I go, there are a lot of old buildings kind of down that main street. Was it kind of like that when you were there, that they had that main street and they had general stores?

VI: That was about it, yeah. Nobody went inland or around the island to see what kind of place, it ended up being a very tourist town. And that was the biggest island in Puget Sound, for the San Juan Islands.

TI: Well, it had a big history because on there they had the British camp and the American camp. Did you know anything about that? That back in the 1800s they had kind of the disturbance up there. So you were just really focused on the cannery area.

VI: It was just a small area that, as far as we knew, there was nothing else on the island except the cannery at the little town that's in back.

TI: Now, do you recall any interaction with the locals there that weren't Japanese? Any, like with the white population?

VI: I don't, but my sisters do, because they went to school there for a while. But I was too small.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: Okay, so let's come back to Seattle. So your dad did this, and Mom did this in the summer, but eventually they settled more just in Seattle, and I think from your oral history and Auntie Hannah's oral history, they talked about how your dad kind of worked, I think in a card shop helping out there. But eventually he started managing a hotel on Yesler. So do you remember that place and, like, the name of it and where it was located?

VI: You mean Sprague Hotel?

TI: Yeah, tell me about Sprague Hotel.

VI: That was on Yesler Way, and it was between, it was on Sixth Avenue. And Sixth Avenue was at the peak of the Yesler Hill. And Fir, they came down to form a triangle at Yesler, and that's where the hotel was.

TI: So it's on this, kind of, intersection of Fir and Yesler, right above Sixth Avenue? And so just for people who don't know Seattle, so Yesler is a main, kind of, street that goes all the way down to the waterfront, and sort of begins down at the waterfront, and then through Pioneer Square. And as I go up there, like Second and Third Avenue are, it's kind of a messy area in terms of lots of streets coming together. They have that bridge, right, over Third Avenue, to get up to where you are. Because it's a pretty steep hill coming up from Pioneer Square up to Sixth Avenue.

VI: We used to walk down to the waterfront. Main Fish was there, and what we used to do was get barrel, things that holds the barrel together?

TI: The barrel staves or whatever those metal...

VI: They put a net out there, gunny sack net, we would go down to Main Fish and they'd give us salmon heads. And we'd go down to the waterfront and the piers, we'd let down these nets along the pilings and catch shrimp. And we'd catch enough shrimp that we could, on the way back, there was a place that bought the shrimp for ten cents a pound.

TI: Wow, that's quite a bit. Did you make quite a bit of money doing that?

VI: Well, we made enough to buy a hamburger that costs five cents. So that was lot of our summertime activity, going down to the waterfront. But it was a steep hill to go down and climb up.

TI: And how did you learn how to do things like that? I mean, did someone like the older boys teach you, or did an Issei teach you how to do that?

VI: I have no idea. They must have.

TI: Well, who would you do this with? I mean, when you think about that time, was it with a group of boys or was it just one or two?

VI: I think a couple of us did that. What we would do is if we get the ten cents, we'd go up on Jackson Street and where the Saigon, Little Saigon is now.

TI: So like on Twelfth?

VI: Twelfth and Jackson. On the north side of Twelfth and Jackson, they had a little hamburger shop, and everybody swears that was the best hamburger that they ever had, because they cooked it in grease. It was really tasty. So when you're talking about the old timers, they always remember that hamburger shop that was there.

TI: And just like, kind of a greasy spoon place?

VI: Yeah, the more grease there was, the better the taste is.

TI: And back then, did they have, like, French fries, too, or was it just hamburgers?

VI: Just a thin bun with this greasy hamburger. Five cents.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: So when you were growing up, so this is kind of like when you're, this is after Friday Harbor, so you're kind of like nine, ten, eleven, twelve. I mean, what was kind of the boundaries of what you would consider Nihonmachi during that time? When you think about where the Japanese lived, you were on Yesler, Seventh and Yesler. Was that part of Nihonmachi?

VI: No. What happened is Nihonmachi was between Jackson and Main in that area. Well, the hotels were on First, Second, Third Avenue, and they were mostly leased by the Japanese. But you had the Yesler hill which kind of divided the downtown Nihonmachi where people lived. And Washington Street was kind of a dividing line. Because on one side of Washington Street was where all the brothels were. From Maynard all the way up to about Tenth Avenue.

TI: On Washington Street?

VI: Washington Street on the south side. And the Japanese community was there going up toward Yesler. So if you know where the Nippon Kan is, that's about where the one corner started.

TI: Going down to Jackson?

VI: No, going up toward Fourth Avenue. From that hotel, from that point on, is where people lived up 'til about Twelfth Avenue. And then if you went two blocks up the hill from us toward Harborview Hospital, it ended, because it was kind of wilderness there.

TI: Undeveloped just like...

VI: Undeveloped, yeah. And then they'd have a path that we used to take from our house on Yesler to get over to Madison, because they had a streetcar there too.

TI: Okay, so you're cutting through right by Harborview?

VI: Below Harborview.

TI: Below Harborview, okay. You know, the interesting thing to me, the area you're describing, you talk about walking up the hill. For Seattle, it's one of the most scenic places now to leave. I mean, one of the more expensive places because you have these sweeping views of the Sound, Mt. Rainier if you're on that side, the downtown skyline. Did you like the view? Did you ever think about, oh, this is such a beautiful place to live?

VI: No. [Laughs]

TI: Because especially the Sprague Hotel, I looked at the pictures. If you go out on the roof there, you have probably one of the best views of the whole city.

VI: View of the, right. We never thought about views. All we thought about was if the streetcar ran there, so it was very convenient.

TI: Yeah, it's so funny because I think now in terms of my generation, and they look at that place and said, oh my gosh, this is, what a beautiful place to live.

VI: Okay. And that area that we lived in, from Sixth Avenue, across the street for two blocks going all the way up toward Twelfth Avenue is where it all is. People knew that that was an area that was very, very...

TI: Desirable?

VI: Desirable to do something with. And then since we were minorities, it was very easy to kick us out, so we all had to leave.

TI: But what was interesting, they, in your words, kicked you out, or moved you to build what I called a housing project.

VI: Housing project.

TI: Right, so low income housing projects. It's curious that a developer didn't come in and put more expensive housing. Because as you say, it's pretty pricey. I mean, you talked about that pathway underneath Harborview, right, that was undeveloped, yeah, that became housing projects, that whole area. So I guess it was partly because it was undeveloped that the city took it over.

VI: Well, it was very convenient to build a housing project there, because you had a streetcar running out there. And at that time, they didn't have low income or things like that. By the way, when you went down Yesler and went south, that was kind of where the Kingdome is, that was all swamp and things. And if you went down closer to the Sound, that's where they had Hooverville, where they had the tents. We used to go down there and dig for worms, sea worms, to go fishing on the pier.

TI: Where the Hoover, or just in the flats down there?

VI: Yeah, around there.

TI: Which now is, again, prime real estate for Seattle. Yeah, it's where all the sports places are, or Sodo, the Sodo area, "south of the dome."

VI: That was all swampland at one time.

TI: Yeah, that's really interesting because as you talk about that area, I get a better sense of, yeah, you talk about the Hooverville kind of swampland.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: Earlier you talked about Washington, it's like brothels, it's where all the brothels are. So it's kind of a seedy part of town.

VI: Yeah, it was. That's why we were there.

TI: Right.

VI: That's why we were restricted to where we could live, and we get the seedy part of town.

TI: So from where you lived, how far did you have to go before you got to the wealthier parts, or the more nice parts of...

VI: Well, what happens is when you went up to Thirteenth Avenue, or Fourteenth, then you got more of the homes. They weren't the mansions and stuff, but they were nice middle-class homes. And then Japanese started moving into that area, and then Collins Playfield was kind of the hub, and people lived all around it. So you had really two areas. Where we lived... three areas. One where we lived, one where Japantown and First Avenue, because all those were leased by the Japanese that had families, and then you had another area which was east of Fourteenth Avenue starting where the Buddhist church is now, where Collins Playfield used to be. And all around there, you had the Japanese starting to move in. Now, if you went further up the hill, then you got into the Jewish community. So you talk about having brothels on Washington Street, they had brothels for the Jewish people up on Twenty-fourth Avenue.

TI: So explain that to me. So they had different brothels for different communities?

VI: I think so.

TI: Because they had two different distinct areas?

VI: I think they had two different clienteles. I mean, at that time, we didn't question that, it was just something of a fact.

TI: So on Twenty-fourth, so right now the main arterial is Twenty-third Avenue. So on Twenty-fourth on the other side of Twenty-fourth? I'm thinking up where the, I think it was the Douglass-Truth Library is, that's an old library on Yesler.

VI: Yesler Library.

TI: Yeah, Yesler Library. So it's kind of in that area, around there, by Garfield High School?

VI: Well, no, it was further south.

TI: Okay.

VI: There weren't too many.

TI: Okay, but I didn't know that. But I know the Jewish community was there because all the synagogues were there and are still there. So the Langston Hughes Center right now was an old synagogue.

VI: Like I think I mentioned to you, on Maynard, that came to an end, then the hill began down to Jackson. So the brothels were all there, so on the corner of Washington and Sixth Avenue... no, Washington and Seventh Avenue, we played baseball. And then home plate would be right in front of the brothels. So a lot of, sometimes you'd see the men coming and they'll sit there and watch us play baseball. So whenever our ball would fall and went on their porch, the madam would come out and take the ball away from us.

TI: Because she didn't want you playing there?

VI: So then we had to quit playing. So after the men kind of spread around, she gave us the ball back. We didn't think nothing of it.

TI: Well, as a boy, what did you think about playing baseball and there was a brothel right there? I mean, what did you think about that? Did you know what a brothel was and what they were doing?

VI: Yeah. [Laughs] But when we were young, I don't think we talked too much about sex, you know.

TI: Right. How about the older boys? Do they kind of do things around the brothels like peek in or stuff like that? Do you have any memories of that?

VI: No, because it was pretty commercial. They had to have a health license or inspection every year.

TI: So back then, was prostitution legalized?

VI: Yeah.

TI: Oh, I didn't know that. I thought they had to pay the police under the table.

VI: I mean, it must have been legal because they're all there, everybody knew they were there. I understand some football teams used to come down, the whole team. Of course, we were a little bit younger.

TI: Well, that area, at least around there, I've heard the term "Profanity Hill." Did you ever hear that term or know about that when you were growing up?

VI: No, because that was the language you heard all around anyway. It wasn't the fine language that you hear of the upper class people.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: So I want to switch now a little bit more back to the Sprague Hotel, and do you recall any of your neighbors when you were at the Sprague Hotel, like any families?

VI: Yeah, Akutsus lived across the way.

TI: So this is the Jim and Gene Akutsu family?

VI: Yeah.

TI: Okay, so they lived across the street from you?

VI: Yeah, there was a row house and a bunch of other homes up along this alleyway, and that was all Japanese.

TI: Okay, and did you play with the Akutsu boys growing up?

VI: No.

TI: It just kind of, when you mentioned that, it was ironic because I know when I grew up on Beacon Hill, the Akutsus were our neighbors. And so that's why it's kind of interesting that you were neighbors with the Akutsus.

VI: I think they were up there.

TI: Before the war, okay. And who else was some of your neighbors? I think you mentioned Scott Oki's mom, Kim Oki? Wasn't she...

VI: She was in that neighborhood. Now, they had a grocery store one block from us, the Michihiros had. Next door was...

TI: Yeah, don't worry about that, but like the Mamiyas, were they nearby? I know their store was a little further down.

VI: Yeah, Sagamiya was the corner store where all the rice crackers were made, very Japanese-y. Half a block down from there, on the other side, was Uwajimaya, the original Uwajimaya.

TI: Oh, so they... and what year? I always thought of them before the war as more of a Tacoma store. Yeah, they started in Tacoma, Uwajimaya, and then they came to Seattle.

VI: Seattle.

TI: Do you know about when they came? Do you remember that?

VI: No.

TI: And so they were, tell me about that store. What was it like? Was it like a little...

VI: It was small.

TI: Like a little, just a little grocery store kind of thing? Like a corner grocery?

VI: It was in the middle of the street, I mean, in the block.

TI: And were they known for anything in particular?

VI: As far as I know, being so young, it didn't ring a bell.

TI: You weren't too far away from the Nippon Kan. Did you spend much time there?

VI: Well, anytime they had... they had quite a few events there, and then if it was a community thing, Dad would take us down there, it would be there. All the sports events like judo was always there. So that we spent a lot of time, and my sisters used to spend some time there. And that's where the graffiti came in, because they would write their name on the side of the wall.

TI: Yeah, so talk about that graffiti. I mean, for someone younger, they might not quite get what you're talking about. So what...

VI: Graffiti is just signatures, people write on the wall.

TI: Yeah, on the wall kind of behind the stage.

VI: Behind the stage or other side.

TI: I remember because Sara and I got married there, so we spent time there. Might have been you or Auntie Martha or someone, we went back behind there and she showed me the signature.

VI: Auntie Martha did.

TI: Auntie Martha, yeah. So that was cool.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: So I want to now, earlier you talked about Collins Playfield and things like that. And we've spent a lot of time talking about sports before the war and how you participated. Talk about where you would play sports, because you were a pretty good athlete. So let's start with, like, Collins Playfield. What kind of things did you do at Collins?

VI: Well, basically, Collins Playfield was known for basketball. And then you had different leagues depending on age, weight, height. So that all the things that Collins Playfield had the advantage was that usually Orientals were much more developed when they were young than the other white Caucasian kids. So Collins Playfield always had winning teams in the city.

TI: For the younger groups, or all the way through?

VI: All the way through. Because from the playfield may go up to the high school or something. So Gene Boyd was the director, and he was very good to all the... and very knowledgeable. So Collins Playfield was basically basketball. We used to play a little football, and I knew some of the people from the Green Lake area that we did judo with. And there was a kid named Tamura which was very good. So I got together with him for him to have a football team, and then I'll get a football team, and we'd play football on the Dugdale field.

TI: Tell me, is that on Fourteenth or Twelfth?

VI: It's on Thirteenth from Yesler to Fir, I think that one whole block. It was kind of a long time ago, playfield.

TI: So was that the location where Auntie Martha had her shop after the war? Wasn't that Thirteenth and Fir, right there?

VI: Right. But Auntie Martha had her shop on Twelfth Avenue.

TI: Okay, on Twelfth.

<Begin Segment 9>

VI: And by the way, when we had to move from Sprague Hotel, we bought a, or leased a hotel on Thirteenth and Yesler, Ritz Hotel, Ritz Apartments.

TI: I forgot to ask that. So yeah, so when the city came in and essentially moved everyone out to do the housing projects, you moved, what, you said to Twelfth and...

VI: Thirteenth.

TI: Thirteenth to the Ritz?

VI: Ritz Hotel.

TI: Ritz Hotel?

VI: It's still there.

TI: And I'm curious, do you know if your parents received any, like, financial assistance to move or anything like that?

VI: No, I don't know that.

TI: And the moving process, did they have to do it themselves, or did the city help them move? Or did they have moving days or anything like that, do you remember?

VI: I can't remember that. All I know is when you get there, I think my parents had to buy all the furniture and bedding and stuff for the apartment. So that's what they owned. Of course, they leased the building.

TI: I'm sorry, so they had to buy it for Ritz Hotel? So they didn't own it back at the Sprague, they had to buy new stuff.

VI: I don't know if they brought that over there, but...

TI: Now, was the Ritz a better building than the Sprague Hotel, or how would you compare the two?

VI: It was a much newer building. Sprague was pretty old.

TI: And for you, this was right about when you were starting high school? And so it'd be closer to Broadway, is that kind of about the timing?

VI: Yeah, just about the time. Because Daibo Fujii, who lived down the alleyway from us, The Fujii brothers, they had nicknames, too, starting with Seibo, Joe, and Daibo and Shobo.

TI: Yeah, I know Shobo, Frank Fujii. So they lived just down the block from you?

VI: There's an alleyway that they had their little apartment type.

TI: And so I'm curious, back then, I know Shobo was really into basketball. Did they play a lot of basketball?

VI: Shobo would be twirling a basketball every day.

TI: In that neighborhood?

VI: When he was a little kid, yeah. Of course, that was influenced by Gene Boyd and stuff at Collins Playfield.

TI: Oh, because you were closer now to Collins, too, by being there. You're just a couple blocks away from Collins.

VI: Yeah.

TI: Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for... this is fascinating just to kind of get all the details.

VI: The funny part about that is Mrs. Fujii had a little beer parlor on Yesler, and she used to give free chicken, deep fried chicken, but she puts lots of salt on there so it'd be so salty that they had to buy the beer.

TI: I think that's a trick for a lot of bars where they do lots of pretzels and salty things.

VI: Really salty. [Laughs] Her chicken was salty.

TI: And so was that a pretty big hangout for people, they'd come by and drink beer?

VI: Because that corner you had Howard Drugs, which was a hangout for the older people, older kids. Like Tokuda Drugs became a hangout once they opened up on Yesler Way. But for the older guys, Howard Drug was the corner of Fourteenth and Yesler.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: Okay. So going back to sports, you were saying the basketball at Collins, football you played at, you called it Dugdale? And that was just sandlot where you guys would just play other teams, or was it an organized football?

VI: That was just kind of a place where if we organized a game, logical place to play. And we played tackle football with no equipment when we were kids.

TI: So when you played that, were you playing with boys the same age as you?

VI: About the same age.

TI: Okay. And then talk about baseball, because you played a lot of baseball, too. Where did you play baseball?

VI: Well, we started playing baseball on Jackson, I mean, on Washington and Sixth Avenue where the brothels were.

TI: Okay.

VI: When we were little kids, we used to play there.

TI: But then later on you got more into organized baseball. And where did you play that?

VI: We were... I think we were too young to really play the organized baseball. Because we had the Courier League, and I can't remember that part over there.

TI: Well, at what point did you start playing with older boys, sports? Because I know a lot of your friends are older, and some of them came from sports. I'm just curious...

VI: I always played with older boys, so they thought I was much older than I was.

TI: So what sports and when did that start, playing with older boys? Like when you think about... I think a lot of it was with baseball.

VI: Baseball.

TI: Did that happen later in camp, or was that even before the war that you played with these older boys?

VI: I must have played before the war. Because when we got to camp, I played with the OT teams which was much older.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: So let's go there, because that's something that I want to get deeper into. So there's this group called the OTs that you did, and it was, I think, a lot sports related. How did you get involved with them? Did they ask you to join? Explain that.

VI: When we got to the assembly center...

TI: So the Puyallup Assembly Center, the war started. So for people that are watching this, I'm not going into the details of what happened. But you're at the Puyallup Assembly Center.

VI: We got there, and we were in Area D, which was the fairgrounds. At the fairgrounds, they had a big auditorium type where we all ate and that became the mess hall. So they were looking for dishwashers. And somehow I volunteered and they accepted, they were the older kids. So everybody had to come by us to get their plates. And after it gets dirty, they had to come by us because we had to wash it. But we'd sit there, and when we saw a pretty girl come, we said, "Hubba hubba." So every time, somebody would holler, "Hubba hubba," so we became the "Hubba Hubba Crew." And that started the OTs. Because when we moved to Minidoka, Area D people were the first to go to, on the first train. So we were all in these lower blocks, the area one through seven, and thirteen, fourteen.

TI: Okay, I want to get that a little bit later. Let's go back to the "hubba hubba" Puyallup. So you volunteered to join this crew. The dates are actually easier for me right now because next week is going to be the eightieth anniversary, and last week you turned ninety-five. So I know from that that you were fifteen years old when you went to Puyallup.

VI: Right.

TI: How old were the other guys in that, kind of, dishwashing crew?

VI: Oh, they were two or three years older.

TI: Okay, so this is where you start really being with older boys and getting to know them.

VI: Right.

TI: And who decided that you would be able to join this? Was it the other guys or was there, like, a supervisor that interviewed people and said, okay, so Victor, or Junks, you can join the group?

VI: No, just that group kind of stuck together. And every Saturday they'd have something like a community sing or something in the hall. They had dances, too, we used to watch the older kids dance. These are some of the things we never say to people. We say, "Oh, it was horrible," you know. But Saturday night. So the dishwashing crew kind of stuck together. I'll always remember, I think I told you about community singing? We'd have community singing. So our group would always sing with the community, so we said we'll sing a song. So our group sang. And then the song was sang was...

TI: Oh, was it "Skylark" or something?

VI: "Skylark."

TI: Right. So this is the story about Mr. Sasaki. So tell us...

VI: So Hank Tanabe, Hanko, was kind of a ringleader. So we said, well, we'll sing, and when they get to the song, "And then your lonely heart stopped." Because from there you go, "Haven't you heard..." you had to go way up high.

TI: So it was a really high note that you have to get.

VI: Right. So we were singing that, we stopped, and Raymond with his hoarse voice, went, "Haven't you heard..." [Laughs] in front of the whole group.

TI: And this was in front of the whole...

VI: Community sing.

TI: Community sing.

VI: So we were kind of mean, you know. And then Hank Tanabe would lead to another thing. He was from Montana and he came to Seattle right before we got evacuated. And he had the idea of calling people with nicknames. So he always named, called people nicknames. So a lot of the time, that's where a lot of nicknames started.

TI: And so kind of the group leader, he'll say, "Oh, you are such and such."

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: And we talked about this earlier, you were talking about, when it comes to nicknames, there were different categories of how people got their nicknames? I think you said one way was kind of like their physical traits? Do you remember that?

VI: For nicknames?

TI: For nicknames.

VI: Oh, yeah.

TI: So talk about that, how nicknames were kind of given in terms of different categories.

VI: Okay. One of the worst places that they got nicknames was in the Catholic Maryknoll. That one Maryknoll class, we had the guy named Egghead because he was shaped like an, head was shaped like an egg. We had a guy named Popeye because his eyes were popeyed.

TI: But you said these are all Maryknoll guys?

VI: Yeah, that was Mom's...

TI: And so they were given those nicknames while they were at Maryknoll? Or later they were...

VI: I don't know.

TI: Okay. So Popeye, Egghead...

VI: Killer. Because we had, nicknames came from two different areas. One of them was physical thing, and the other one that aren't really nicknames, but they're short for Masaru, Mas, you know.

TI: Okay, so oftentimes Japanese names that people...

VI: And then what happened is -- this is my theory -- that when the Isseis came to the States, and they had kids, and they wanted to name, give them an English name, I think a lot of them thought about George Washington. But you'd be surprised at how may Georges there were. In our group, I think there were about five Georges. So you'd never holler, "George," so you always had to use Tano or your uncle, he used to call me Jipo. So that, a lot of times, became... for people that don't know where that came from like nicknames. The other one was the appearance. Like...

TI: Shorty or Egghead.

VI: 8 Ball became the head of the college, because he had a nice, round head. So it was like a billiard ball. You don't call him Billiard, but say 8 Ball. So I'm sure he got 8 Ball. And one of the funniest experiences were a friend of ours came from back east.

TI: So this is a white Caucasian?

VI: White Caucasian.

TI: Actually a work colleague of yours, right?

VI: Right. And then he wanted to see the Oregon coast. So we went down the Oregon coast and they had the hotels that gave you breakfast. So one day we were down at breakfast with Bob.

TI: Right, your white friend.

VI: Yeah. And we saw each other.

TI: You saw another Nisei?

VI: Another Nisei. He saw me, the first thing I says, "Hi, Rabbit," he says, "Hi, Junks." Bob says, "Who was that?" [Laughs] For us, that was just normal.

TI: And this was someone you hadn't seen for a long time, Rabbit.

VI: Well, he was a Seattle person. I hadn't seen him for a little while, but I've always known that. But in the Oregon coast, you'd never...

TI: But he called you Junks and your friend Bob knew you as Victor, and so he was confused, like why did Rabbit call you Junks?

VI: [Laughs] Yeah. And the nicknames came with body, too, like Takiyama was very tall, we called him High Pockets because he was tall. So a lot of the nicknames came that way.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: Right. Which is something that I wanted to talk to you about. We talked a little bit about, at the beginning, before the interview, as far as how you are with one group might be different than another group? Like for instance, even at Lakeshore, we're here, walking through the hallways, I know some people know you as Victor and some people know you as Junks. And for me, I find myself saying, oh, if someone calls you Junks, I know they know you. I mean, they know you from the community or from the family. And if someone calls you Victor, then I say, oh, this person doesn't know you, or just met you.

VI: Well, that's the way I'm registered.

TI: Yeah, as Victor. But still, your friends here call you Junks. And for me, I know I do this like of little mental thing where if someone calls or refers to you as Junks, then I know they know you, so I'm maybe a little more comfortable or casual with them. Then if someone calls you Victor, then I think, oh, I have to be a little more formal with them. Do you have to do the same thing? Do you think about that in terms of, that when you use Victor you're a little different than when you're Junks?

VI: Well, what happens is, like, I joined the poker group. My friends call me Junks, so they called me Junks. And then some of the other people that know me called me that, so some of the Niseis that I don't know had picked it up.

TI: So like the gentleman you eat breakfast with, Susumu, what does he call you?

VI: He calls me Victor.

TI: So what's the difference? I mean, here's someone you have breakfast with. Why would he call you Victor and not Junks? How do you think about that?

VI: Because his background would not be the kind of background that would call me Junks.

TI: Okay, so maybe because he was born in Japan...

VI: Very educated, come from a very rich family.

TI: Little more formal.

VI: Has a tremendous record of achievement and stuff. So that's the one I want you to interview.

TI: Yeah, so we're going to do that. But let me ask this question. Do very many white people call you Junks, or any non-Japanese Americans, do they call you Junks?

VI: Not yet.

TI: Do you have some non-Japanese American friends who, in the past, have called you Junks?

VI: I think eventually they may be. A good example is when we first came here and we were being interviewed, and Roy...

TI: Beans.

VI: Yeah. He walked by and I said, "Oh, hi, Beans." And the people said, "Beans?"

TI: Right, Beans Kirita.

VI: So now, some of the staff here, they call him Beans because we called him Beans.

TI: Okay.

VI: And other ones has picked it up where they call him Mame, which is "beans."

TI: Oh, that's Japanese for "Beans," mame.

VI: That's when Joe and they used to call him Joe Fuji. So that's where nicknames come from.

TI: But how does that feel for you when, if someone calls you Junks rather than Victor, does that kind of change your...

VI: Because nobody called me Victor until I came here.

TI: [Laughs] I know. So that's why it's always interesting when people say Victor.

VI: Well, when I was at work, they all called me Vic. And my friends called me Junks. But now I'm Victor here.

TI: But it's kind of interesting with these nicknames, especially nicknames from the community, how it's almost like this different, almost hierarchy of friendship that I just kind of sense.

VI: When you have nicknames.

TI: When you have nicknames, yeah. That people who use nicknames, you reminded me when you told me the story about Rabbit and how your friend was, Bob was surprised. And probably I'm wondering, because you were really close with Bob in terms of work, if he felt maybe a little left out. Because it's almost like, oh, someone feels like, maybe a little closer to you?

VI: No, I don't think so.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: So let's go back to the OTs, I want to talk about that more. So you're with this group, you started with the dishwashing group, they tended to be older. Who were some of the people? You mentioned Ray Sasaki, who were some other people in this group?

VI: Oh, Mas Kawako and... I can't remember their names.

TI: You could see the faces, though. And generally were they also, some of them in sports also, that you did sports with or knew them from sports, or was this like a totally different group?

VI: Well, the time that we spent at the assembly center was so short that you really didn't have any time to organize anything. We tried to play baseball but it was so small. At Puyallup, the stadium, they got a track around that, we'd have relay races. And somehow we formed a team and then they told me I'm going to run the anchor.

TI: So is this a team based from the dishwashing crew?

VI: Yeah, that group.

TI: Okay.

VI: So we'd have races. And I always remember that they told me I'd be the anchor.

TI: And generally for relays, the anchor is the strongest runner.

VI: [Laughs] Supposed to be. So we had this relay race and we were ahead when they gave me the baton. But I was racing against Toji, he's very athletic, about six years older than me, he was running anchor. Of course, he finished before I did. But we'd have sports like that, you know.

TI: But for your team, were you the fastest runner?

VI: I didn't think so. [Laughs] Those are some of the things we did. The facility was so small. Of course, where we were, we were at the fairgrounds so we were lucky. The other people were in parking lots, so they didn't have any field at all.

TI: Now at this time, the dishwashing group, was there the use of the term OTs at that time?

VI: [Shakes head].

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: Okay. So let's go to Minidoka. So from Puyallup you mentioned how you were in Area D, you were one of the first groups to go to Minidoka. Some of your friends from the dishwashing crew were with you. So pick it up there, what did you guys do together? Did you guys stay together in terms of the same kind of jobs or activities?

VI: No. What happened is we lived in the Block 1 through 7, 13, 14 area. On Block 5, the chief cook was Mr. Kaseguma, which was Kassie, and his assistant was Mr. Tanabe which was Hank's uncle's dad. So we kind of congregated there. And then we never ate with our parents, we never ate with family, we always ate in our group. In fact, I ate at Block 5 so often that when I went back to Block 7 to eat one time, they thought they won't feed me because I wasn't part of the block.

TI: Oh, because you're only supposed to eat at your own block because of the amount of food they had. And so actually when you went to your block, they didn't think you belonged.

VI: Yeah. But we knew the parents of our group that was in Block 5, so we all congregated there. And that's when we started with the group that were eventually called OTs.

TI: And so Mr. Kaseguma, was he in that group, too, Kassie?

VI: It was a big group. But then by the time we got to getting our jackets and stuff, it was pretty small, compact.

TI: Okay, so start off when it first started, the group, what was the, kind of, membership criteria? How did you get to be part of this group? Was it Mr. Tanabe?

VI: No, Mr. Tanabe, Hank Tanabe, we were a group that was mixed, and a lot of them were college kids and all that. So we were more cohesive than other groups. You had other groups like Block 16 from Portland. So people thought we were bad kids and all that.

TI: Because you guys said you were more cohesive than the other groups. What does that mean, by "more cohesive?"

VI: That we all ate at Block 5.

TI: Okay, so you were always together as a group, you ate together and did things together.

VI: And played cards together, they played bridge and things.

TI: And it ranged from, you said college age?

VI: Oh, yeah.

TI: And then you were still like fifteen, sixteen years old, right?

VI: So it's amazing that they accepted me.

TI: Were you the youngest in that whole group?

VI: Yeah.

TI: Was there anyone close to your age in that group, like other fifteen, sixteen...

VI: Oh, Edo was a year older.

TI: This is Mr., Dr. Sasaki, Edo Sasaki?

VI: Uh-huh. And then George Tanabe was two years older. That was the closest. All the rest were college or older.

TI: Okay, but you are, then, the kid, the youngster.

VI: So we were this group, and people thought we were pretty cocky. Of course, that age, you get pretty cocky. So Lucko says, he decided that we should have a name. So he says, "We'll call ourselves OTs." You know how that started, it's "Odorless Turds." So we were OTs but SF. "Odorless Turd but Stinky Fart." So we're not that... eventually they dropped the SF part, so we were OT.

TI: And at that point, you knew what that meant. Did other people?

VI: Nobody else, just our group.

TI: Oh, so it was like a group secret, OTs. I think of OTs, I think when I first saw it, I thought it might be "Old Timers" or something like that.

VI: But we made the O and the T, but the T, T-E-E. So it's O-T-E-E. And then we were cocky. We went to Twin Falls and we got letterman jackets with our name and "Otees" on. So we had quite a reputation of not being the... so that's where it began. So instead of, the reason we got OT is, excuse me, but we thought our shit didn't stink. [Laughs]

TI: Right.

VI: But we had a "stinky fart." Are you sure that story will be in there?

TI: [Laughs] We'll see. But so you're part of this group, you were the youngest going to college age, and you did things like play games, you ate together, I think you guys also did some sports together, too?

VI: Uh-huh.

TI: So did you have like an OT baseball team and things like that?

VI: Yeah. But the OT baseball team was real broad. We took the best players in our area, which were maybe not the original OT members, but they play for our team. And that's the team that I think I told you that everybody had a nickname?

TI: Right, right. As you went around the diamond and talked about all the nicknames.

VI: Kind of interesting is we had such a rep, when you went out to pick potatoes, we were supposed to buck potatoes, lift the potatoes out to the thing. And we were going to this Oakley, which is in Burley, and there was a group of young teenage gals.

TI: These are Nisei girls.

VI: Nisei girls. When they found out that they were going to be with the OTs, they were just scared, because we had quite a rep.

TI: Okay, so they didn't really know you guys, but they had just heard of you.

VI: Yeah.

TI: And they were from Minidoka?

VI: They were from the area which is on the other side of camp. We were on the lower, they were on the upper.

TI: The upper side of camp.

VI: There were some girls that were even younger than me, and their chaperone was Yoshi Mamiya.

TI: Okay.

VI: And we knew Yoshi because of George. So we went there and it was an old schoolhouse. So we went there and we were there, they were there and they were kind of worried about, they thought, you know, bad boys. Well, Saturday night we had singalongs and we sing and everything else, so we had a good time. We didn't stay there too long, but after the season, we came back. And they were so happy that we weren't the things that they were... the crazy part about that is all these reunions, some gal would come up and say, "Remember me?" I said, "Yeah, I remember you." [Laughs]

TI: And it came probably from that experience.

VI: That group, yeah.

TI: Like how many girls were there?

VI: There were about, oh, eight or so. And they were the group that were on the other side of the camp, so we didn't associate with them at all until we went to the thing. Mom used to say, "Do you remember her?" I said, "No."

TI: Because Mom is in Block 16, so she was in that upper side.

<Begin Segment 16>

VI: So I tell the story about the West Side Story. I don't think you heard about my story? We were in the OTs and the Block 16 were the Valley Boys. And they had a good baseball team, they were good sports, so we'd always compete with each other. In fact, sometimes they would even compete for girls. So that was kind of a hard feeling. So it got to the point where we're going to have a big show off. What started was my brother-in-law used to date Mary's sister.

TI: Well, they married. I mean, not only dated, they eventually married.

VI: Well, they started from when they were in Broadway High School.

TI: Broadway High School, right. And so George Tanabe was an OT, and then Auntie Ishii, or Mom's sister, was Block 16.

VI: Block 16.

TI: So it is like the Romeo and Juliet...

VI: Yeah, because every time they go, and then couple of times when the OT person was going after the same girl, we got kind of a little rough. So they finally decided we're going to have it out.

TI: Have it out like a rumble, essentially, a fight.

VI: Right. And then it was going to be at the movie theater, we had an open field there. And so when we come out of the movie theater, they were going to be the Block 16. So what had happened was Mas Kawako, he said, "Why don't you pick one person and we'll pick one, and you can have a fight instead?" In the meanwhile, the people that were Tule Lake, they came up to Minidoka when they closed. And a lot of them were from Sacramento and they were kind of zoot suiters. I think that, would remember that. And when they thought, and they became our friends. So went over to have this big rumble, they came to help us. But they came with bars and stuff, and when the Block 16 boys saw that, I don't think they wanted to fight us.

TI: Interesting.

VI: So it just kind of broke up.

TI: So your group kind of befriended the zoot suiters from Tule Lake. Which I want to now kind of cycle back, this is really, really interesting, the dynamics. I know when we were talking about this story in our family, and Tani was listening to all this, her eyes would get really big in terms of, oh, this is a great movie.

VI: [Laughs] You got the West Side Story, they're doing it now again. It was about the same thing.

TI: Yeah, exactly. And you could just see it, too, the tensions that happened.

<Begin Segment 17>

TI: Which I want to talk about a different kind of tension. Because here you were kind of fifteen, sixteen years old, hanging out with these older boys, all the way to college age. And after several months when you were at Minidoka, they come in with this written questionnaire, kind of the, commonly called the "loyalty questionnaire," where young men who were eighteen and over, in particular, had to fill this out and do that. Do you remember that, and did that cause tension with, inside the OTs? Because you had this group of, pretty much, older boys who were draft age, and they're being asked things like, "Would you be willing to serve in the U.S. Army?" and things like that. Do you remember that?

VI: If I remember correctly, by the time that questionnaire came out, they were already accepted, people had already volunteered for the 442.

TI: Yeah, so the way the sequence happened was the, they opened up, in 1943, they opened it up, the volunteering.

VI: Right.

TI: But they also, to help decipher that, and also to allow people to start leaving camp, it was called a work release. And so that came out at the same time, roughly early 1943. And then the draft happened in 1944. And so there was a period where men were volunteering in 1943, and people like Mas Watanabe, for instance, he volunteered in 1943, and then a year later was the draft.

VI: Right. So you could see it didn't affect everybody, because at Minidoka you had the biggest group volunteer.

TI: Okay, so people in the OTs, did some of them, they started volunteering for the army, is that it?

VI: Yeah. Because the one that kind of was my big brother, Sam Sakai, he volunteered. And some of the closest friends, they volunteered while others didn't. So the "no-nos" didn't come out at that time.

TI: Because that was 1944, so a lot of the original, the early guys who volunteered had probably already left.

VI: They had already left. So that didn't affect, they didn't have to sign that thing because they had already volunteered.

TI: Now, was there any kind of pressure amongst the OTs for the men who could, were draft age or military age to join to volunteer? Like was there peer pressure to do one thing or another?

VI: No. But what happened is by the time that the thing came out, you already had the 442. They were either at Camp Shelby or they were already in Europe, but I think they were at Camp Shelby.

TI: Yeah, early they were at Camp Shelby. It wasn't until really when Bako was killed, he was like an early killed in action. It was not until '44, like spring/summer that the 442 really got in action. So anyway, what I'm looking for, though, is kind of that early discussion amongst the OTs. Because you mentioned, it's an interesting group because you guys were so cohesive and I'm wondering how they navigated that.

VI: Well, the group itself didn't have to make that kind of decision whether to volunteer or say "no-no." Because that came at a different time period.

TI: Right, so initially it was just volunteering.

VI: Right, so once the volunteers, they had no idea what was happening in camp. Of course, when they came to be in the draft, that's when...

TI: But before the draft, some families answered that questionnaire in a way that they were then sent to Tule Lake. Did any of the OT families or individuals go to Tule Lake?

VI: No.

TI: Okay, so none of them did. Because it reminded me because when you mentioned how the zoot suiters from Tule Lake came to Minidoka, that was part of this process where some people from Minidoka went to Tule Lake and some people from Tule Lake went, and that transition...

VI: The people that went from Minidoka to Tule Lake were not any acquaintance of us, so that we didn't know any family that we knew, or friends that went to Tule Lake.

<Begin Segment 18>

TI: So then it was only later then, so moving to 1944, when they started drafting them, that's when some of the men at Minidoka started saying no to that and started resisting.

VI: Right. So said no before.

TI: And so were there some OTs that decided to resist the draft?

VI: Yeah.

TI: And tell me, like, about how many. And at Minidoka, did that cause tensions?

VI: I don't know. Because by that time I was in Minneapolis.

TI: Oh, that's right. Because you graduated from high school and you were still too young to be drafted.

VI: I was seventeen when I went.

TI: You were seventeen, and you graduated from high school and you went to Minneapolis. And you're saying that the draft notices, which were kind of the summer of '44, you weren't around to see that.

VI: See, Mom was still in camp, so she remembers saying goodbye to the people who went to 442 or volunteered, and goodbye to the people that went to McNeil. Because some of her friends...

TI: Were also kind of...

VI: Or some of Bako's friends were.

TI: So although you weren't there, going back to the OTs, just roughly how many of them were draft resisters?

VI: Well, we had Mas Kawako, Nobi Omoto, Nag Ando, so about four of them.

TI: Well, you mentioned the first one, Mas Kawako, he was like one of the early leaders of the OTs, right? You mentioned him as someone who was kind of, felt like one of the leaders of the group.

VI: No, he was never really a...

TI: Oh, okay.

VI: He was very opinionated. And then the Akutsus went.

TI: Now, were the Akutsus part of the OTs?

VI: No. They were, I think the same block, but they were never part of the OTs.

TI: And so all of this happened, and did you hear any stories of, kind of, what it was like in camp for the men who decided to resist in the OTs? I mean, did you ever talk with any of them about what happened to them?

VI: For the people that...

TI: Went to McNeil Island.

VI: No. I have never heard one story from anybody of what happened at McNeil Island. I've never questioned them, they've never told me. I've always wanted to know what kind of facilities, how they were treated, all that, but none of them, none of them talk about it. Even Pancho.

TI: Who was a really good friend of yours.

VI: Pancho was a good friend of Bako's too. They never talk about it like we talk about going into camp. Food was lousy, we got treated bad. I'm sure they weren't treated very well at McNeil, but they never talked about it. The thing that really struck me, as I mentioned, that remember we had a big basketball tournament.

<Begin Segment 19>

TI: Yeah, so let's talk about this, this is a good time. So this is after the war, back in Seattle, they were having a big basketball tournament. And how many years after the war is this, about? This is... is this, like, still in the 1940s? Or is this in the early '50s?

VI: Must be 1950s.

TI: Okay, so early '50s, so this is...

VI: Well, let's see. We were at the hotel then, late '40 or early '50s.

TI: Okay. So they're going to have a big basketball tournament, and tell me what happens in terms of... because you want to get everyone together, right?

VI: Yeah. Because, for me, people that volunteered were my friends, people that went to McNeil were my friends. So I thought, well, since the basketball tournament, and they were coming from Chicago and all that.

TI: So this is really kind of, after the war, the first real opportunity to get some of the OTs back together again.

VI: Yeah.

TI: And just to kind of clarify, in terms of your journey, you left camp after high school, you were eventually drafted and you served in the army but it was towards the tail end, do you weren't part of the 442 and had a different...

VI: But they were my friends.

TI: Yeah, your friends.

VI: I thought they would be friends, too.

TI: But a lot of your friends were in the 442.

VI: Very bitter, yeah.

TI: Okay, so going back to the basketball tournament after the war, first chance to get your friends together, tell us what happened.

VI: Well, it really never happened. I got some of the, like Pancho, and he would come. But Sam Sakai, which is actually my oldest brother, I mean, he was very bitter. He was so bitter that he... certain experience they had with the 442, really, some of them were really, really bitter about people that way, even if they were good friends.

TI: Okay. So even before this basketball tournament, they had these individual experiences with 442 vets that made them feel really, really bad and bitter.

VI: Right. I think what had happened is as they saw their comrades dying, about that time, they heard about the people resisting the draft. So they were really, really, I mean...

TI: So these are guys in the 442 who read about this, like, in the Minidoka Irrigator, the men who decide to resist the draft.

VI: Yeah, they knew who. I was really surprised how bitter they got. In fact, it's amazing how some of the members of the 442 were really bitter against Japan because when they had the training ships come, they just ignore them. Only the... now, they come to the NVC. In fact, this year they came to the NVC and we were playing poker, and they came to look at the museum that's there. But boy, they were really bitter.

TI: Oh, so decades after World War II, when Japanese visitors would come visit the NVC, you're saying some of the 442 vets would not participate, they would shun these visitors.

VI: Yeah. Training ships used to come. Well, the Issei group, they will accept them. Because if they came from the same prefecture, a lot of them get invited, but as an NVC.

TI: But I think when I've talked with you in the past, I think the thing that struck me was going back to that basketball tournament, how you were surprised at, I guess, the level of bitterness with, I guess, both the draft resisters and the 442 vets? Or did you already know that there was bitterness? I mean, you must have been surprised, because you tried to bring them all together and you said people didn't show up.

VI: Yeah, especially the people that got drafted and were with the MIS, they're not that. But the 442 friends were really...

TI: And so that's an interesting distinction, too. So the Nisei men who were military service, many of them served in the 442, but many also served with the MIS. And depending on that kind of service, you're saying generally they reacted differently to the draft resisters. The 442 guys were much more, I guess, kind of negative towards the draft resisters than the MIS guys?

VI: Except the other thing, too, is we noticed that the draft evaders were not shy, but they kind of belted away from the community, so that they're not part of it. So they didn't make any effort to try to come back to the community. They were always kind of out, and that's the way they felt. In fact, like George Nakagawa, who was a good friend of mine, he came to our first class reunion, and something happened. Because from that point on, every time we're at a reunion, I asked him if he would come. He says he'll never come to a reunion. So somebody must have said something about... and the crazy part about that, he was re-drafted and he served two years in the army.

TI: Yeah. I mean, there these, they called themselves resisters of conscience where they said no to the military service as long as their families were in camp, and they served time at federal penitentiaries because of that. But then after World War II, they then were drafted or volunteered to serve in, like, the Korean War, and actually served. And I think some of the things that you're talking about for the draft resisters and kind of their removal from the community is actually, I think, what you just said. I mean, when they're part of it, like George Nakagawa, when he went to a reunion, I think in terms of what people said to him were so painful that he...

VI: Right. And I was really surprised. He's a good friend. I'd ask him, "Are you coming?" he says no. And this was schoolmates, friends.

TI: I remember when I was doing Densho, the Mariners reached out -- this is back when Ichiro and Johjima were on the team -- and they said, "Hey, can you find some baseball players, Nisei baseball players? We'd like to have them on the field." And I reached out to you and, I think, George Nakagawa was the first person that came to mind, like, oh, George was a really good baseball player. So I know it was great to have him there, because I think it felt special to him that he could be there, and that you invited them.

VI: Yeah, remember how special that was for him?

TI: It was pretty cool to have you guys on the field with Ichiro and Johjima, and watching you guys interact with them.

VI: In his lifetime, he never thought he'd get to meet Ichiro, and here he had a chance to meet Ichiro. He was so happy about it that his family, the picture we took, they took it and they framed it.

TI: But part of it, too, was, I think it was meaningful to him that you invited him, that you reached out to him.

VI: Well, he didn't want to come at first.

TI: I know, I remember. And you convinced him to come.

VI: But I told the people I invited, and there were really maybe... he might have been 442 but...

<Begin Segment 20>

TI: So this is where I kind of want to pivot to this next part. Because it now makes more sense to me, I think. Twenty-six years ago when we had a conversation about... and I told you, I said I'm going to start this project to collect the stories of the Japanese American experience and focus on the World War II experience. And this was something, this was 1995, 1996, and you were, like, sixty-nine years old. And so a lot of your friends were in their seventies. And I said, "Well, so Dad, wouldn't this be great to collect all these stories because they're still fresh in people's minds?" And I could tell, you were kind of hesitant about me doing it. Do you remember that conversation?

VI: Yeah. First of all, when you started, I think I told you, you missed a great part of really, of people that were affected and knew about the relocation.

TI: Some of the older...

VI: Professional people.

TI: Older Niseis that had already passed away.

VI: And they were so close to the Isseis. If you're going to tell a story, that's the story that was really important.

TI: And you were talking, maybe like Jimmie Sakamoto, those kind of people that were older Niseis?

VI: Yeah.

TI: Right.

VI: A good example is when they had the Courier League. That was the old group.

TI: Because Jimmie Sakamoto was like an older Nisei. So there was that part, that you said I was late in terms of starting this, but there was more, too, you told me, too.

VI: Yeah. You know, people just don't realize happened as far as I was concerned. Where the war broke out and we were in the movie theater, my dad even brought us home. Japan had just attacked Pearl Harbor. Our parents were Japanese nationals. What was going to happen to us? I mean, at that time, we're not arguing about we're American citizens, we're part of a family. And our family, we even had Japanese pass... what do they call it?

TI: Passports? Or dual citizenship?

VI: Dual citizenship. So it was kind of hard to start objecting or anything. I mean, you don't do it when your parents' country attacks. So that, if you were there, and we didn't know where we were going or what was going to happen, and Japan was winning the war, what was going to happen. It was kind of hard to say I'm American citizen, so you can't take me. And Japanese, as a whole, were a very docile group, they didn't cause too much trouble, the Northwest was, anyway. So when you start talking about it, when the young people look at that, they say, "If I was there, I'd resist because I'm an American citizen." Well, they weren't there. I mean, it's completely different, the atmosphere we had. I mean, we were willing to go to camp, we were willing to... so you really weren't getting the true story. And nobody has told that part of the story, why. Why didn't we resist?

TI: Well, so was that the reason why you didn't want me to do Densho, because we wouldn't get that story, or that we would get that story?

VI: I don't think people... we were, at that point, want to tell the story.

TI: Right.

VI: So why push 'em to tell the story? That's why I mentioned to you that you were kind of late in getting into Densho.

TI: Right. And the sense was that you're feeling like...

VI: The best stories were the old stories that you missed.

TI: Right. So we missed those, and in addition, maybe Densho would kind of push people a little too hard to talk about something that was maybe difficult?

VI: Right. That older Niseis would have a harder time, I think, talking about it. Younger ones could talk about that, "We're American citizens so we shouldn't be taken." I mean, that's the law. Eventually that came out and we got redress. Which we appreciate, but I don't think a lot of us, as far as the redress is concerned, didn't mean that much. Not as much as the younger people felt that the government should say something. As you go in Japanese, "Sho ga nai," we let it go at that. So that's the reason why I didn't... interesting when you talked to the older people, how they felt. Some were very bitter because they lost their occupation. They were not, it was not as set up to fight for, "I'm American citizen so I shouldn't have gone." They were more bitter because, "I had an occupation or profession that was taken away from me." And that's a different story.

TI: Right, just those individual ones.

<Begin Segment 21>

TI: Something else we've talked about in the past that you also had talked about was, you also were concerned that Densho would stir up some of the divisions or, in particular, around the military service, like the 442 guys and draft resisters. That by Densho talking to... and I talked with you earlier that it was going to be more than just getting the 442 story, I was going to talk to the draft resisters and others, and women, and you were, I think, a little concerned about that, too.

[Interruption]

TI: And so is a concern that because we're kind of doing this, these stories so far after the war, that a lot of it is being kind of changed in some way? That it's not as true or authentic as you think it should be, and that's one of the problems with this project?

VI: Yeah. Because when I was talking to you, and I know that you're going to have it on the records, we've got to tell you a bad story. We can't tell you that this was the best time of our lives, we had fun. Of course, being teenagers, we can say that. That's our... now, the older people are a little bit different, and the younger people are a little bit different, because they weren't old enough to really experience anything. We were right in the middle between, say, fifteen and twenty-something, that group. So that's the reason why I think we were missing a whole bunch. But we'll go along with what you're doing because it really is what happened. But for personal experience, we all had different ones. But if you were a farmer's daughter, oh boy, you had the best time of your life in camp. Because now you don't have to go out in the field, and you met friends that you never would have met.

TI: And these are things that, like, a farmer's daughter would tell you, kind of, just because she knows you and she can do that, but she can't do that.

VI: No, we can see that. And they have mentioned, we have so many friends that when we were at home, we didn't get a chance to meet them. But when we went to camp, you made a whole bunch of friends. So you had instances like that. You talk about the Isseis. Now, nobody says that the time that they spent, the Isseis, were probably the best years of their life. Because here, where they were, before the war, they were working their butts off trying to keep their family going, the majority of them. And they were barely making a living, except our standard of living was so low that we never knew we were having a bad time. Now, they go to camp, all of a sudden, they didn't have to worry about the family, they didn't have to worry about work. They played games and stuff, goh and stuff, or they may be a cook or something. But that tremendous pressure they had before the war, for a time being, was gone. And things like that, you can't say that to the public. To say, for some people, this was the best thing that happened to them. And that, things like that, never would come out. But when you saw my dad playing baseball, man, he would never do that bringing us up. They'll take two jobs instead. And my mom would help Dad. And once they got there, they got women's group and stuff for the Isseis and stuff. Which they wouldn't have had a chance to do it as soon as they can. But that story never comes out.

TI: Well, it's coming out now. [Laughs]

VI: Yeah, it's coming out now. It's contrary to what you people are saying. So as far as I'm concerned, I don't want that to come out, because that would kind of show that the Caucasians, that it wasn't that bad, what are they complaining about? So I don't want that to come out.

TI: No, I get that. And we've had this conversation, and that's why, in some ways, I do want this perspective to be there so that...

VI: Well, it's up to you. But, see, I can say that to Tom because he's family. Some people, if I say that, would feel bitter about saying that. But if you really think about it, especially like farmer or poor people, poor Isseis, bachelors, they were struggling, and all of a sudden they're pulled in, and for three years, and really no worry about, they couldn't do anything to take care of the kids anyway. So that's the story.

TI: No, this is what I wanted.

VI: So there's a lot of things that I feel, I don't come out with, especially when you're doing Densho.

TI: No, but I think, as you say, this is hard for people to share, but that's why I want to do this. So, Dad, we're past noon.

<Begin Segment 22>

VI: My age was a good age to see what happened to the older people, Issei. We were old enough to see what happened to the young people. And we were right in the middle between, should I volunteer, or should I... and lot of my best friends, like Sam Sakai, he came back so bitter that it was kind of hard to accept it. But I guess if you see your best friend being killed, I mean, there's only one way you can feel. And he had PSD, is that what they called it?

TI: PTSD?

VI: Yeah. I'm sure he had that, but in World War II, that didn't exist. But they went through the same thing that people are existing now. And I feel very strongly about the police in that a lot of the people, if you join the Marines or the army, what they teach you is now to kill. So they come back and they become policemen. For them to kill somebody does not mean as much as if you didn't have the background.

TI: Of a military person.

VI: Especially going to Iraq and taking the civilians there and killing them. I mean, that's a little bit different than killing a soldier, but they get used to killing civilians. So with that kind of thing, they come back, they become policemen. So they got no qualms of killing a Black person. I'd never say anything. I could say that with you people here, but you probably never heard of this kind of a story.

BT: Actually, my dad agrees with you. He says, "I had so much fun in camp." And my grandmother is a good example of what you're talking about. She was a single mother of three daughters and was just trying so hard to keep her family afloat before the war. And so when she got in camp, it was like, oh my god, she didn't have to work, she could garden, she could spend time with her friend. So for her, it was exactly what you said.

VI: And she met a lot of new friends?

BT: Oh, yeah.

VI: Look how close we are for our class reunion, you've never seen classes like that, that year after year, people were coming.

[Interruption]

TI: So, Dad, I just want to kind of, we talked about Bako and Pancho, and I didn't really explain who they are. So Bako is Francis Kinoshita, Mom's eldest brother, who was killed in action with the 442, actually, the 100th Battalion. And then Pancho, I don't remember Pancho's name.

VI: Isao Nakashima.

TI: Okay.

VI: They called him Pancho because he looked like a Mexican. [Laughs] I mean, I hate to say it. But like he joined the University of Washington, he joined the ROTC, so he had a little bit of training in ROTC. So when he went to Camp Shelby, he was somebody that was from the ROTC. He had a whole bunch of people coming from Hawaii that came from the farmers. And he's a very likable person, people like him, so before you know it, he became a sergeant. And then the Hawaiians accepted him, which was kind of hard because Hawaii was usually, didn't like Mainlanders, especially if there's a sergeant. But Bako was really accepted, because after he died, the Hawaiians all, people that were under him or with him, came to the family and told Mr. Kinoshita and the family how they missed him and all that. So when you hear about stories about, you know, they really didn't get together, they really didn't get together but they serve in the groups that really blend. In the case of Bako, we were kind of surprised because when he went over and joined the 100th, he was staff sergeant, which was unusual. Because usually they would be from Hawaii. So we were kind of surprised. I mean, there's a lot of those stories.

TI: Yeah, good.