Densho Digital Repository - Ron Osajima Interview

Densho Digital Repository
Densho Visual History Collection
Title: Ron Osajima Interview
Narrator: Ron Osajima
Interviewer: Brian Niiya
Location: Yorba Linda, California
Date: December 9, 2021
Densho ID: ddr-densho-1000-486

<Begin Segment 1>

BN: Okay, so it's December 9, 2021, and we're here to interview Ron Osajima. We're at his home in Yorba Linda, California, and we are also with Evan Kodani who is shooting the video. So we're going to begin now, as I think we do with most interviews. And I wanted to first just ask you about your parents and what you know about them, starting with your father, who I believe was an Issei. And if you can just start with his name and birth, when he was born, and maybe what you know of where he was from in Japan.

RO: So he was, he came to America in, I think, early '90s, with his father and his brother. And so they were in their teens at that time. And he brought them along, and then after spending time here and realizing that Japanese Americans couldn't buy property, and there are a whole lot of things that affected, way back then, even Japanese Americans. So his parents went back to Japan, but he and his brother decided to stay here. And then he met my mother who was Nisei, and her parents came late in the 1800s and they decided to stay. So she was able to enjoy growing up with parents here.

BN: So she was really one of the, she must have been one of the older Nisei.

RO: Older Nisei, yeah.

BN: What was her family name before she got married?

RO: You can't ask me questions like that because I don't remember. [Laughs]

BN: Her first name, though, was Yukiko?

RO: Yuki, Yukiko, right.

BN: Just to go back to your father, do you know what prefecture or where in Japan his family was from?

RO: I don't remember. I knew at one time.

BN: Okay. Was it more, was it from a more rural area?

RO: I think so, yeah.

BN: Do you know much about family did?

RO: They were farmers. And the funny thing about that is when he and his brother stayed in America, somebody else took over and they had children. And my cousin went there just to see the old place, and knocked on the door, and they wouldn't let her in the house, and they were not interested in her at all. And we believe that's because they were afraid she was coming back to take back the property. So we never went ourselves because we would be thrown out, too. [Laughs] So that's kind of a shame, but that's what happened.

BN: It's funny, I've heard stories, other stories.

RO: Oh, have you?

BN: Yeah. So do you know if... because what often happened is that the Issei would send money back to the family? Were you aware if that was...

RO: No.

BN: You were obviously, this was before you were born. Do you know much about what your father's early life, after he came to the U.S., was, in terms of what sort of work he did?

RO: Yeah.

BN: And we should get his name, too.

RO: Hakaru.

BN: Hakaru.

RO: Yeah, he worked in, he would buy fruits and vegetables from the farmers and then sell them in the group between the people who actually sell to customers and the people who make it...

BN: Sort of like a wholesale market.

RO: Wholesale, so he actually worked in the wholesale market downtown.

BN: This is downtown...

RO: L.A.

BN: So where did he... after, well, maybe let's go to your, we'll go back to your father, let's maybe go to your mother a little. You mentioned she's Nisei. Where was she in the birth order in terms of siblings?

RO: She was probably three or four. I think the first two were born in Japan, and then when the parents came, they brought them along. So she was one of the first ones to be, to come from here.

BN: And then where did they live?

RO: They lived in Southern Cal, I'm not sure exactly where.

BN: Do you know much about her early life in terms of schooling?

RO: I know a little, yeah. She went all the way through, she went through high school and she wanted to go to college. She was smart, so she wouldn't have any trouble getting in. And her brother did go to, I think it was USC. So she wanted to go there but they would not let her because she was a woman, and back in those days, it was really harder for women than for men. So she was very upset about that, she says her brother gets to go and she has to make sure his... whatever this is called, his shirts are ironed. So she would iron it and give it to him, and then he would go to school and she would be working in some kind of a horrible job.

BN: Yeah, I guess that was pretty common in those days.

RO: Yeah, exactly.

BN: The son was really prioritized.

RO: Sure.

<Begin Segment 2>

BN: So how was it that your Issei father, wholesale produce marketer, meets this -- and your mom is quite a bit younger.

RO: Yeah, maybe ten hours... ten years.

BN: How did that come about that, that they met and married?

RO: I don't know. I wasn't privy to information like that. [Laughs]

BN: Obviously you're not born. I wonder if it's an arranged...

RO: In those days, yeah, in those days a lot of them were arranged. And there weren't many women compared to the number of men, so she could get her pick of the men. And I can't remember, she picked him because he was nicer or something, he wasn't the typical Japanese person coming over.

BN: And for an Issei, he was actually kind of a younger Issei because many were born much earlier. So do you know what year they got married? Let's see, your oldest brother was born in, like, '32.

RO: Yeah, so 1920-something, I'm not sure.

BN: Yeah, so she was very young, she would have been really young. At that time, right, was it not the case that, as a Nisei marrying an Issei, she would lose her citizenship? Or had that been changed by then?

RO: Yeah, no, it changed about the time they got married, it was in the early '30s.

BN: So she was able, she never lost her citizenship.

RO: Yeah, she never even knew that there was this law.

BN: She was fortunate. So after the Cable Act, probably. Now, you have an older brother and sister, right? And you're number...

RO: Three.

<Begin Segment 3>

BN: Growing up... obviously you're very young, so now, where was the family home at this time?

RO: It was in... I know the names...

BN: You mentioned Gardena.

RO: Gardena, it's in Gardena.

BN: And at that time, it's pretty rural, right? Or was it?

RO: No, it wasn't as large, probably. But we had houses all over the place.

BN: And he still worked at the...

RO: He worked in L.A.

BN: In wholesale produce, so he commuted.

RO: Yeah. And he had, I think, three people working for him, and they would all go out to collect the... see, unfortunately, I'm sorry for those of you who are listening, but I don't remember things as well as I used to, especially names. But anyway, they would go out to buy the stuff and then they'd haul it into the... what did we say earlier?

BN: The wholesale.

RO: The wholesale.

BN: He's basically buying vegetables from, I assume, mainly Japanese farmers.

RO: Probably, yeah. And he would either, then he would deliver to the large stores, but the smaller stores would buy off there.

BN: Yeah, that was a big occupational niche for many of the Japanese at that time. In terms of your household as you're growing up, given that you have an Issei father and Nisei mother, was English...

RO: Yeah, we spoke English a lot.

BN: In the house.

RO: When my parents didn't want us to understand what was going on, they would speak Japanese.

BN: And did you get sent to Japanese language school?

RO: I just started when the second World War came along, and then you don't do anything Japanese after that, and of course, we were sent to a camp shortly thereafter.

BN: So you had very little Japanese. Did you pick up the language just from your parents?

RO: Not much, no.

BN: So you probably speak less Japanese than the average Nisei.

RO: Oh, definitely.

BN: Well, because you have a Nisei mother, in part. And I should ask, we didn't note this, what year were you born?

RO: '35.

BN: '35. So you're six or so when the war starts.

RO: So I was just starting Japanese school and then, bam, no more Japanese school.

BN: Do you remember which Japanese school?

RO: No.

BN: But in the Gardena, South Bay area.

RO: Right.

BN: At that time, were there a lot of Japanese in Gardena at that time as well? And after the war, obviously, it became a big Japanese...

RO: Yeah. I really don't know.

BN: Yeah, you're so young. Do you have other memories of family life? I mean, were your parents involved in churches?

RO: Yeah, my mother played the piano for a church, and my father didn't go to school, or go to church at all.

BN: So it was mainly your mother's.

RO: Yeah, my mother.

BN: And do you remember which church?

RO: No.

BN: But they were... were they Christian?

RO: Christian, yeah.

BN: At that time, do you remember, who were your friends at that time?

RO: At that point, they were mostly white because we were so, we were young and we only played with the kids in our immediate area.

BN: Who were mostly white?

RO: Who were all white except for us. And I remember when the war started, one of our neighbors stood in front of his house with a gun. He was ready for something to happen. And the kids were no longer allowed to play with us.

BN: Oh, wow.

RO: Yeah. And, of course, shortly thereafter we were sent to Manzanar.

BN: Did your family have pets?

RO: Let's see. I think we had, yeah, I think we had a dog. And the woman who rented the house to us took it. She was great. She was white and she, during the war, she just took all of our stuff and put it away for us. Whereas other JAs really got, they lost all of their things.

BN: Yeah, that was very fortunate.

<Begin Segment 4>

BN: What sort of house was it? Do you remember much?

RO: What are the alternatives?

BN: Just the size, bedrooms.

RO: It was probably two bedrooms. It was pretty small, obviously. But for us it was fine. We didn't know what the alternatives were.

BN: You were a fairly small family for that time. Was it your sense that, look back, that your family was fairly well-off or somewhere in the middle, or do you have a sense of that?

RO: Well, I would say in the middle because he had his own business. And we weren't hurting for money or anything.

BN: In the business, I assume, would he have owned trucks?

RO: He had three.

BN: Uh-huh, because that's kind of a necessity for what he's doing.

RO: Yeah, 'cause he's hauling.

BN: And he must have had a crew of people working.

RO: He had three people.

BN: Were they all Japanese also?

RO: No. In fact, when we went into the camp, he kept one of the trucks and then he sold one, and he gave one to one of the workers who was white and said that he could use it until the war ended and then he never saw that guy again, so he lost out on that.

BN: And then you mentioned the house was rented, because, of course, Issei were prohibited from buying... although your mom was Nisei, so theoretically...

RO: I never inquired as to why.

BN: Okay. And then you mentioned earlier that your dad came with a brother. Did you kind of then have extended family that you would see?

RO: That was about as extended on his side. It was just his brother. On my mother's side, there were four or so siblings around with their families. So we would spend more time on her side. At least one of them had kids my age, so we would (play with them). One of the big things was going to the beach together. And their father was a... what do you call the person who takes care of the house?

BN: Gardener?

RO: Gardener. He was a gardener so I would sometimes go with him. So we got to know that family very well.

BN: Did they live nearby?

RO: Yeah, but I don't remember where exactly, but close enough.

BN: Do you remember what beach you went to? Because I know a lot of the beaches were kind of segregated. Was there like a designated Japanese beach?

RO: I don't think so, not where we went.

BN: But Gardena, it's not too far, just straight west. I know after the war there was a specific area that all the Gardena people, beach that the Japanese from Gardena would go to. But again, you were very young at that time.

<Begin Segment 5>

BN: Why don't we go to the war now. And, of course, you mentioned earlier about the neighbor. Do you have any particular recollection of December 7th and the reaction of the family and community to the attack on Pearl Harbor and the beginning of World War II?

RO: I really don't. In my own defense, I'd say I was only five.

BN: Yeah, you were young, sure, grade school.

RO: Actually, I wasn't in school yet.

BN: Okay. Any memories of, kind of, the period between Pearl Harbor and when you started to go to camp in terms of... and again, you're very young, but just things that you could sense that you learned about later about what your parents were thinking with regard to, "What are we going to do with the business?" "What are we going to do with the house?" and so forth?

RO: Well, I know what happened. And I don't know what the thinking was behind that, but we didn't own the house and that was pretty straightforward. I mentioned earlier that he had a business with three workers, and he lost that. So after World War II, he couldn't get back into that business, so he wound up selling fruits and vegetables off his truck, so he would go to JA areas and he would sell there. So he did not make a lot of money. So people his age really got it. It was really tough for them. We went from a pretty nice area to the east side of L.A. which was not a very nice, it's a very low income area, which is what we were, low income.

BN: Now, do you know the circumstances of how your family ended up going to Manzanar? Because typically people from the South Bay didn't go to Manzanar.

RO: I have no idea.

BN: Okay, I was just wondering.

RO: But fortunately we didn't have to stop at a horse... we didn't have to stay in the horse areas because my father volunteered to go early to set it up, and so we were one of the earliest people to go.

BN: Yeah, that answers my question, actually, so that's why he ended up at Manzanar because he was one of the so-called volunteers. Did he drive his truck up?

RO: Yeah, he drove. He had one truck left, so he just drove up.

BN: And was he able to hold onto it throughout?

RO: Yeah, we drove out of there in that truck when we left. And he had a job... I don't know how many of the people who were in the camps had jobs, but my mother had a job and my father had a job. He worked with the people who were moving things around. My mother started out as a teacher, because this is before teachers were available. Then when we got white teachers, and then she worked in a comparable or slightly different job. But they both worked throughout the time we were there.

BN: I've never heard that story about... I know some people drove their cars to Manzanar, but the stories I've heard, they always were sold, subsequently. So it's interesting your dad was able. So did he use his own truck in the course of the work he did at Manzanar?

RO: I have no idea. I would guess he did.

BN: Yeah, that may be why he was able to onto it. That's an unusual story. So the other part of it is, does that mean that you were able to bring, kind of, more stuff with you? You hear the stories about only what you can carry. If you're driving your own truck up there, you must have been able to then...

RO: He could have, yeah. He went ahead of us and he had the truck, so he could have put things in there, I guess.

BN: Do you remember, in terms of your barracks, did you have your own furniture or things in there or was it pretty sparse?

RO: I think it was pretty spartan.

BN: So maybe not.

<Begin Segment 6>

BN: What do you remember about your living quarters? I always ask people about the bathrooms, the latrines, the mess hall, any memories of those, just basic day-to-day life?

RO: Yeah, well, first of all, being five or six years old, going to the bathroom, we just had one area where everyone went. And so I didn't have any problem with how it was set up. Of course, the women didn't like it because they didn't have individual areas to use. What I didn't like about it was, at night, if I wanted to go to the bathroom, it was cold and dark out, and I hated to leave to go to the bathroom. But outside of that, it was fine. When you're a young child, all of the stuff, at least my experience is that it's not that bad of a deal. In fact, I really enjoyed my time at Manzanar. Do you get that from other people as well? Young kids?

BN: Absolutely. Yeah, my father-in-law, he was fourteen, he considered it some of the funnest times of his life, when you're a kid.

RO: When you were a kid.

BN: Yeah, you hear that a lot.

RO: And all of these JA kids, and I really didn't have that many friends outside of relatives before the war. So to wind up all of a sudden with all these kids, all these JA kids, and we played together. We had a good time. [Laughs]

BN: Now, what about the schools? What do you remember about going to school there? Because you were there, which grades would you have been?

RO: I think... let's see, first or second maybe, starting.

BN: You were there three full years.

RO: Yeah. And I thought the... well, I don't know that I can give you a real clear idea there, but I certainly enjoyed school. I was fortunate enough to... I didn't know it at the time, because what do I know about how they organized this thing? But for each grade, they had like, say, four or five different classrooms. And they put the smartest kids in one classroom, and turned out I was one of the smarter kids, so I was in that classroom. And I didn't know it because I really wasn't thinking about that. But one of my friends, after the war, was really upset. He said, "I didn't get into that classroom." He got his PhD, so he was no dummy. So I guess there were too many smart kids, I don't know, but he never forgot that, that he didn't get in. We were good friends.

BN: With regard to... were you involved in other activities, sports, art projects or anything like that? Scouting?

RO: No, but my dad made me do (kendo) and... what's the other one?

BN: Judo?

RO: Yes, judo, which I didn't like at all. Because in judo, the guy that was running it was, he was not a nice person and he forced us to do things we didn't want to do. What I didn't like about the other thing is I would get hit on the head, and we didn't have anything on top of our head, we just had it here. Anyway, those were not the best things in my experience.

BN: This is at Manzanar?

RO: In Manzanar, yeah.

BN: Interesting.

<Begin Segment 7>

BN: You mentioned your parents both worked, and I assume your siblings also were going to school as well, and probably running around with their own friends. I'm sure you didn't know at the time, but did you have a sense that your parents... because Manzanar obviously had some very contentious politics, and the so-called "riot" in December, the "loyalty questionnaire" episode. Did you have, were your parents kind of political and involved in those kinds of things?

RO: No, no. They were not involved. That was a horrendous thing. I think it was in Block 3, I think, that all of that, all the problems came out. And my parents both signed... what were the alternatives?

BN: You mean questions 27 and 28?

RO: Yeah. But they signed it such that we were allowed to just go.

BN: Right, "yes," they signed it "yes." The so-called "loyalty questions." Do you have any recollection of the time of the December events, the so-called "riot"?

RO: Not really. I read about it after, so I knew that it occurred.

BN: Yeah, but as a kid you didn't, you don't remember any... okay. Did your family, was your family able to maintain ties to the outside world? You'd mentioned this kind neighbor who was looking after some of the possessions, but were you in contact with her?

RO: During the war?

BN: Yeah.

RO: No. Although I had never talked to my mother about whether she had connections, so she may have.

BN: As far as you know. Okay. Were there particular friends or neighbors in Manzanar that maybe you'd mentioned running around with your friends. But were there people there that you kind of remained friends with for life from that time?

RO: Not... although the one guy who was mad because he didn't get into the "smart kids" section, he and I were friends. But I don't think any of the others, I knew some of them because they went to Roosevelt High school. But no, I guess what happened after the war is people went back to wherever it was they came from.

BN: Memories of things like movies, were you aware of the orphanage, the Children's Village?

RO: Yeah. The movies in general were really great. It was Saturday night and they were outside, we would go. There was only one that I remember being afraid of, it was some kind of... it was a movie that had some scary parts, so I was crying. [Laughs] That's all I remember about the... but it was a terrific thing. Everyone got to go to these. And I didn't know any of the kids who were orphans, but I knew that such a place existed.

BN: Do you remember the gardens? Because Manzanar was also known for Merritt Park and the gardens and so forth.

RO: I know that between the barracks, people would grow things.

BN: How's your parents, were your parents into that kind of thing?

RO: I don't think so. Well, they had jobs.

BN: Did you notice, over time, you're there almost 'til the end. Do you remember how things changed over time in terms of... well, anything, in terms of the schools, the facilities, the gardens?

RO: Not... it certainly changed from the first day we were there. They brought white teachers in, for example, which we didn't have at first. So I thought the education was very good. And I didn't see that change, I think. These people stayed with it at least as long as I was there.

<Begin Segment 8>

BN: Now, of course, many of the people who answered 'yes-yes' on the "loyalty questionnaire," they left early. They went to, even before the West Coast opened up, they went to Chicago or New York. And I know you were very young, but were you aware of your parents considering that, or was it always kind of that they were going to go back?

RO: Yeah, my father, actually, drove his truck to the middle of the country thinking that he could find something there that would make sense. But then he came back and said, "We're going back to southern Cal."

BN: So they let him out to, kind of, explore the Midwest.

RO: Uh-huh.

BN: Interesting.

RO: He didn't see anything there for him, so he decided that we would go back.

BN: And did you, was it always going to be back to Los Angeles?

RO: Yeah, I guess. I mean, I had no say in this.

BN: Right, you're still ten. Because they didn't end up going back to the South Bay where they had been, they end up going to a completely... do you have any sense of why they ended up in East L.A.?

RO: They didn't have much money, so they had to go a place... also there were issues with JAs living in particular parts of city. I know that because my mother used to, would go around looking for a house, and there were areas that said, "We don't sell houses to Japs." But it turns out to be both a plus and a minus and we wound up in, on the east side of L.A. First of all, there were no, almost no whites. It was basically Latino and Jewish and some JAs. So I didn't have to deal with all of the problems that JAs faced when they went into areas which were primarily white, so that's a plus. [Laughs] The negative is that the school I went to wasn't very good. And so obviously I did very well because it wasn't that good. But when I got to UCLA, it was like the first time I ever had classes with white kids. And at that time, it was about, I'd say ninety-five percent white. There were very few who were not. And so I felt like they were smarter than me, and that was true, and also, I really wasn't that interested in school. I had other things more important like drinking and hanging with my (high school friends). And then, of course, I was working on weekends. So that was not a very positive experience for me, but on the other hand, that was my first experience with white people and it was good. It was good that I had that experience, because it helped me when I started working.

BN: Sure. Did you feel that... and we'll get back to Boyle Heights later, but while we're talking about school, you mentioned that you thought the quality of the teaching and so on was pretty good at Manzanar. Did you feel like you were able to just pretty seamlessly pick up things once you restarted school on the outside?

RO: Yeah, sure. In fact, I did very well because there wasn't much competition, and it was largely low income people and largely Latino.

BN: Were there particular teachers at Manzanar that you remember as being particularly memorable?

RO: Yeah. There was one third grade or fourth grade teacher I just loved. She was my first love. [Laughs] Of course, she didn't see it the same way.

BN: Of course.

RO: Yeah, so she, I really loved her, and she went back to the East Coast after. And I think I sent her letters for a while, but after that, it just kind of died out.

BN: Do you remember her name?

RO: No. I could find it if you want to.

BN: Yeah, yeah, that'd be interesting to know. One of the teachers that a lot of people from Manzanar mentioned is Lou Frizzell, the music teacher.

RO: Oh, uh-huh. Yeah, I wasn't into music at that point.

BN: So anyway, let's go back to after. When they left to go to Boyle Heights area, did they have a friend or someone that they were going with or was it, did they know people there already?

RO: Yeah, one of my uncles lived there, and in fact, when we first got there, we spent the first week or two in church. We weren't praying or anything, we had a little area that we could use for sleeping. And then we went to my uncle's house, he had room there so he helped us there.

BN: And is this uncle, is this one of your mother's siblings?

RO: My mother's sister and her husband. And he was another one that really got screwed because before the war, he owned a store in J-town with his two brothers who were in Japan. So they would send the stuff over and he would sell them. So that poor guy, he wound up after the war working in a small store behind the counter. And I remember going to see him so I knew what kind of work he was doing. And he still had this beautiful car because that's what he had, and that's what he was used to. So I think he really... my father really got screwed, but this guy really was even worse.

BN: But he was somehow able to hold onto the car even through, I assume he went to camp?

RO: Yeah, he did. I don't know how he, whether it was the car from before, or maybe just bought another one, I don't know. But it just reflects on how he was used to living, it was tough for him.

<Begin Segment 9>

BN: Then I want to go back to the church. You mentioned, I think it was Evergreen Baptist.

RO: Evergreen Baptist.

BN: Did you have a connection with that church from before the war?

RO: No, that was the only one...

BN: That would take you?

RO: ...in the area for JAs.

BN: What kind of area did you actually live in, in the church?

RO: They had these little areas for each class, each class of kids, so we got one of those, it was very small. It was probably for, like, six or so kids who would get their, they would learn about Christ and all that on Sunday mornings.

BN: Then so your family of five, then, was in one of...

RO: It was one of those little places, yeah.

BN: So you'd all be sleeping in there.

RO: Right.

BN: So what about meals and...

RO: Yeah, I don't know how that happened. I mean, I don't know what my mom did, but we had food.

BN: Were there, like, other families also in that church?

RO: Uh-huh, I don't think there were very many, though. And we were only there for a few weeks.

BN: Do you remember who ran it? Was it a... I mean, if it's a Christian denomination, do you remember who was in charge?

RO: Yeah, I do. The funny thing about that is when we got married, we got married in Seattle and so we needed someone who could do it for us. So we saw this, the local person and he said, "Oh, sure, I can do it." And then he said something to the effect that he remembers me. But what was funny about that was he doesn't remember what a bad kid I was. [Laughs] Otherwise he might have said, "No, I'm not going to marry you."

BN: Is this a Japanese man?

RO: Yeah, he was very well-known at that time, I think, and then he moved up to Seattle, had a church there.

BN: And then did you, from when you were living in this church, did you then go to school? Because you're getting out, like in September or something.

RO: Yeah, I think I went to something like four or five different schools that year, because we moved from the church to my uncle's, and then we moved to the other side of the city and we came back. So it was... but then again, I was a kid, I didn't care.

BN: Kids can adjust quickly to things.

RO: Sure.

<Begin Segment 10>

BN: So after a few weeks, some time at the church, you mentioned then moving in with your uncle. Is he also in Boyle Heights?

RO: Yeah, he was in Boyle Heights. But it was a different school, it's a little far away from where I...

BN: And then did he have, like did you have cousins also?

RO: They were a lot older than me. And he's the one that lost his business.

BN: Right, right. So they're not in the house?

RO: Right.

BN: Okay, got you. And then from there, where did you go?

RO: I think we went to another, I think we rented a place on the east side which didn't work out, so we went to the west side for a while and then ultimately we wound up back on the east side. We had a little house.

BN: And then you mentioned in your memoir that your mom was searching all over for a house to buy, and she was able to find something, I gather. This is also in Boyle Heights, right?

RO: Boyle Heights, yeah. She wasn't allowed to buy. She went to other parts of the city, but they said, "No Japs here." But as it turns out, it wasn't so bad for me, because what do I care? It was good for me in the sense that I got to know Latinos and Jews, so that helped me as I was growing up.

BN: In order to buy a house, the family, your family must have had some savings?

RO: I don't know, but that would be logical.

BN: Yeah, because that you were able to do that was fortunate. And then what happened, you mentioned that you had a neighbor who was looking after some of your possessions from before the war. Were you able to reclaim some of those things?

RO: Oh, yeah, they were terrific people.

BN: So they watched over... this is like furniture and that kind of thing?

RO: Exactly.

BN: Yeah, you were fortunate, there weren't a lot of people like that. And your dad was able to drive the same truck?

RO: Sure. But he lost two.

BN: Right. And then he starts, kind of, the smaller scale business. Did your mother also work?

RO: Yeah, she worked as a, in a high school fixing food. So she wasn't... she needed to work, they needed both parents working because they needed that much money. She had never worked before.

<Begin Segment 11>

BN: And then all of, you and your siblings are going to school. I mean, in later years, they would call kids "latchkey kids." Was that the situation where you would kind of be on your own after school?

RO: Not too much because she worked at a school. And so she would get home...

BN: So she had similar hours as school.

RO: Yeah, similar hours, right.

BN: And then you mentioned that your friends were mostly either Jewish or Mexican American.

RO: Yeah. And in my neighborhood it was almost all Latino, but there were a few Jewish kids, So I was friends with both. It was actually... you have pluses and minuses. Another plus was we had gangs in our area, and they were not interested in me at all because I wasn't Latino. So I'd pass them on the street, and we'd be friends and I'd say hi and all that. But one of my friends who was Latino got beat up because he would not join the gang. So that was a plus for me, not being Latino.

BN: You were insulated, I guess, somehow. You wrote about, also, that you encountered sort of this racist song that...

RO: Oh yeah, that was so funny. This was about thirty, forty years later. I was doing some work at the university near our house, and one of the teachers... no, he was a student but he was an older student, he told me about that. He said, "We sang this song about you guys," and then he starts singing it in the class and I go oh god, how embarrassing for both of us. [Laughs] And there was a younger woman in another class... I taught parts of classes. The teachers wanted someone to come in with some experience, talk about their experience. And so she was younger and she went through the same exercise and said, "We still sing this song about the Japanese." Not much progress. [Laughs]

BN: That's funny, yeah. That's, what, sixty, seventy years later. And then from there you went to Hollenbeck, right?

RO: Hollenbeck junior high, middle school.

BN: What do you remember about the school? Was it a good school?

RO: It was on the east side, which means automatically that the schools were not very good. The schools on the east side didn't get the attention that was given to schools in the other parts of the city. So, for example, we didn't have a swimming pool, where the ones on the west side had swimming pools. And since the students were, many of them did not go on to college, the teachers that they had were just not the same quality as the teachers in other parts of the city. But when you're in your... I guess, how old was I then? Maybe eleven, twelve, somewhere around there, doesn't matter. Schools didn't really matter to me, it was just a place where we... and I did some work, but it wasn't that big a deal.

BN: And you had mentioned that you got into sports, right? Basketball...

RO: I don't know whether you're aware of that, but that was, and still is, a JA thing, right? There were different levels...

BN: Just different divisions and groups, talent levels, very highly organized.

RO: I was in the low talent groups. But it was fun; I really enjoyed that. So I played basketball up through college. And I was in one of the lower ones, so as a consequence, I was one of the better players. [Laughs] It was okay, I enjoyed that.

BN: And would you get to travel around the city and the state to tournaments and so on?

RO: I don't think we went... no, because I don't think they did that with the people in the lower groups, but we played a lot in our area.

BN: Did you continue Japanese school, or after the war that was it?

RO: Yeah, Japanese was out at that point.

BN: Sure. I think one story you wrote about in your memoir was about being able to take the streetcar with your friends to USC games and things.

RO: Yeah.

BN: Can you talk a bit about that?

RO: It's interesting. Back then, the three of us, two Latinos and I, we were good friends. We would go to events and we'd sell newspapers as a way of getting enough money to get in. And we would be out until... well, the games might end at ten p.m., eleven p.m., late at night, we'd just get on the public, whatever it's called, and come home, and nobody worried about that. So in those days, it was okay. We were probably thirteen, fourteen years old, were out until ten o'clock at night, and nobody cared.

BN: These are... at that time, these are still the streetcars, right?

RO: Streetcars, yeah.

BN: They hadn't torn those out yet.

RO: Right.

BN: And then from there you went on to Roosevelt.

RO: Roosevelt.

BN: Now, both of these are fairly largish schools, right? Do you remember about how many people were...

RO: No, I don't remember.

BN: But, I mean, you're in a class of, like, hundreds of people.

RO: I'm sorry?

BN: There's hundreds of people in your class? I mean, not your individual class, but your..

RO: Yeah, in my year.

BN: High school year. And I assume it's similar demographically, right?

RO: Mostly Mexican.

<Begin Segment 12>

BN: And then, at that point, you also wrote about being in this Squires group, which, maybe you can tell me a little about that.

RO: You don't want to know.

BN: This is what I want to know about, this is the fun part. [Laughs]

RO: We were not the nicest kids in school. But we enjoyed being together� and so we would... I think it was Tuesday nights, we would have our meetings. And we'd go down to J-town and we'd shoot pool, and of course, we weren't old enough yet to shoot pool legally. So one of the guys had his older brother's, something that shows that we're old enough. And after that, we would go to... we'd get some booze and we'd go to a local area and drink. So we'd get home late. Of course, I never did homework on those days. So it was a terrific... I really enjoyed life. And there wasn't much competition in school, so I didn't have to work very hard.

BN: You were able to get good grades.

RO: Yeah, I got good grades.

BN: Doing this extracurricular stuff. How did that group start? Was it just a bunch of you getting together?

RO: Oh, back in those days, JAs were all in groups, and I just happened to be in that one, which turned out to be one of the toughest groups. And I don't know how I got in there, I think they wanted somebody with some credibility so they could help the group.

BN: So it was an existing group that you joined.

RO: Yeah. It was fun.

BN: Did you have like a jacket or something that you all wore?

RO: I don't think so.

BN: And then did you, like, get into conflict with other similar groups?

RO: Yeah. Well, fortunately, we were the toughest group in our school, and nobody messed with us, so that wasn't the problem. We did almost get into a gang fight in J-town one Saturday night. And there was another, in quotes, "gang" there, and there was some discussion between the two. So it's really funny because we actually lined up, two lines that are facing each other, and we were ready to fight. But I'm such a coward that I said, "Oh, what's your problem? Why are you after us?" And one of them, the leader on the other side pointed to the guy next to me and he said, "It's him." So that turned out to be our toughest kid. So I said, "Are you willing to take this guy one on one?" and he said, "Sure." So I talked to the guy, the leader on the other side, and I said, "He wants to take you one on one," and the other guy, of course, had to say yes, right? So we avoided having a gang fight, and then we went to an area pretty close to where we were. Everyone kind of got around them and the two of them were ready to go. And they got a couple blows in and somebody yells, "The cops are coming." So we all had to run away, and of course, we're very happy about our tough guy. And we went and got some booze and enjoyed the rest of the evening. [Laughs] So that was the only time that I can recall where we had potentially a gang fight.

BN: And this other group was also Japanese?

RO: Yeah, they all were, yeah.

BN: Was there any, you'd mentioned earlier about being Japanese and not being, because of that, you're not being picked on or targeted by Latino gangs. Was that also the case? It was just Japanese gangs or groups or whatever. Did you call yourself a gang or was it a club?

RO: I think we called ourselves a club, yeah.

BN: But was it just Japanese groups here and the Latino groups there and they didn't really interact?

RO: Yeah, because we hung out with just JAs and events we went to were almost all JA. One of the guys on our group was white, but everybody else was JA.

BN: But outside of that, you still had friends who were Mexican or Jewish?

RO: Yeah, but this is only at school.

BN: Right, and then outside of school you're in this JA world.

RO: It was all JA, which was, I think that was the way JAs were in those days.

BN: So how were your parents about your extracurricular activities?

RO: No problem. They didn't ask me why I was coming home on Tuesday nights at one a.m. I don't know whether... I mean, as a parent, I would never have allowed my kids to do that. I think maybe the rules were different in those days.

BN: And you're still doing okay at school?

RO: Yeah. Well, it wasn't hard, because I was going to an easy school.

<Begin Segment 13>

BN: And then the other thing I would ask you about, you mentioned you had a, you also had a car at that time. Did you, I guess you kind of customized it a little?

RO: Yeah, actually, my father bought it for me. And I had to have it customized, 'cause kids don't drive, back in those days, regulars, and we had to lower it, and it's got to be cleaned. You can't have markings on the side. So my father, bless his soul, he actually paid for that, getting it fixed like that so I could look like the other kids driving around.

BN: Was that something, was that kind of a Japanese American thing, that a lot of kids did that? Or was it part of the youth culture in general at the time?

RO: Maybe. I really don't recall. I know we did it.

BN: "We" being your other Squires?

RO: The JA. Oh no, all JAs. Well, I shouldn't say all, because there were some who didn't.

BN: The ones who could.

RO: Yeah.

BN: Do you have pictures of the cars? I'm curious.

RO: I don't think so.

BN: But then you got, there was an accident.

RO: Was what?

BN: There was an accident.

RO: Oh, you sure read that well, didn't you? [Laughs]

BN: Yeah, I did. It was a great story.

RO: Yeah, see, that was a learning thing for me. I was coming home late one night, and some guy came along and hit me. So we got out and talked, and he said he would pay me to have it fixed. But he didn't have much money, he was Latino. He said, "I don't have much money, but I'll give you a certain amount the first, every week until I pay this thing off." I said, what do I know? I said sure, that's fine. So he gave me, it's probably ten bucks the first week and then five bucks the next week, then he disappeared. And my father, bless him, wasn't mad at me. I think he tried to find the guy, but the guy was not available, he went someplace. The address he gave us, we went there and he wasn't there. But my father got the car fixed and let me use it again. And I don't know if that was common in those days, but it was really an easy life for me in that sense.

BN: Not a lot of, they were fairly, it sounds like, especially for Japanese, especially for Issei, fairly lenient.

RO: Yeah, they were.

BN: Well, you're also the youngest. Did your older siblings have a shorter leash, do you think?

RO: Well, they didn't do the kinds of things I did, so they didn't need a leash at all. Yeah, which is kind of funny because my brother didn't really hang out with JAs very much. And he was a singer, so that's what he did, at school he was, he joined the group. He was not a standard JA. And then my sister was, and she was in a group of JA girls, and she was nice.

BN: What was her group called?

RO: I can't remember their name, but they were very nice kids compared to us. We just had fun. [Laughs]

BN: What kind of music did your older, was your older brother singing?

RO: Oh, I don't remember.

BN: I mean, was it more contemporary jazz pop things, or more classical?

RO: I don't know, I ignored him. He was about three years older than me.

BN: Which is a lot when you're young.

RO: And I was kind of embarrassed to have my brother like that, who wasn't in the JA area. [Laughs] So yeah, I was the only one that was not such a nice kid.

<Begin Segment 14>

BN: Did your group, your club, have like a girls club that was associated with it?

RO: Oh, yeah, that often happened. I think there were two, because we had kids that were in two different years. So the ones that were in the lower year had a relationship with girls in one of those. But that wasn't an important part for us. We just liked to do things on our own.

BN: And then did you go to dances and things?

RO: Oh, sure. That was the thing, I don't know how it was by the time you came along, but when I was there, there were JA, just about every Saturday, somebody would sponsor a get-together and we would go. Of course, we never did it ourselves, we just went to other people's.

BN: Were you a dancer?

RO: No. In fact, I remember the first time I went to one of these, I didn't know how to dance. So just before I left, my sister said, "This is how you do it, this is how you hold the girl, you move your feet." [Laughs] So she saved my life at that time.

BN: One advantage of having a big sister.

RO: It is, definitely.

BN: And these dances, are you going all over town?

RO: All over town, yeah, JA groups all over town.

BN: Did you, so were you then kind of familiar with the JA kids from other parts of town?

RO: Absolutely.

BN: Because there were kind of stereotypes, right, of how people in the West Side or Van Nuys or Gardena, was that...

RO: To some extent, yeah. One example is that the JAs who lived on the West Side were, had friends who were black. So they spoke with a black accent, and we spoke with a, as if we were Latinos. So one of my cousins was about my age, and he had this accent, black accent, and I had this Latino accent. It's really funny. So there were differences like that.

BN: Did you, in terms of your hairstyle and clothing, did you also kind of emulate the Latino styles?

RO: Yeah. Well, not a whole lot. Let's see, I can't remember how he, what kind of clothes he wore. But we definitely were consistent with the places where we were.

BN: Did you have a girlfriend at that time?

RO: No. I was kind of afraid of girls up until, even through most of high school. I'd go to dances and stuff. Also, I had a problem with my skin, so that got in the way, too.

BN: Yeah, that's a little thing, but big when you're that age.

RO: Yeah, right.

<Begin Segment 15>

BN: And then wanted to shift now to, had some interesting stories about working in the summers out in central California. How did that come about?

RO: Well, my cousin, who is a year older than me, had gone. There were camps, JA, older men, generally, would go to pick grapes. And so there was one that my cousin went to the year before. So he told me about it and I said, "Oh, I want to go too." So the next year, he and I went. And it was a camp with just JA workers, it wasn't owned by JAs, but it was the workers, and almost all of them were old men who were having a tough time making it in this area. And then there were maybe ten or fifteen young guys about, still in high school, and that was kind of funny, too, because there were kids from the west side, and there were just a very few of us from the east side. I almost got into a fight there because the kids on the other side... I was a big mouth and they got mad at me for making all that noise. But my cousin, who was from the west side, just calmed them down and said he would make sure I behaved better. [Laughs] So I was saved by that. Then after that was his last year, and I was still in high school, so I went a couple more years. And it was a terrific experience to, a sixteen year old kid, take time in the summer away from the family on your own.

BN: Was the money pretty good?

RO: Money was never very good. [Laughs]

BN: Well, relative, maybe, to what you could do in the city.

RO: Yeah, I think we got two dollars a day, something like that. And we paid, I think, one dollar for the food and place to stay. Maybe more, maybe five dollars, I don't know. But back then, five dollars wasn't a bad number.

BN: But when you came back for the summer, you had, you came back with...

RO: Just a little bit of money.

BN: The older men, are these Issei?

RO: Isseis, yeah.

BN: So these are single Issei farm workers. So they did that. Did they do that the whole year? Well, I guess, it's seasonal work.

RO: It's seasonal, and they would go from camp to camp. So I don't know how long ours lasted, maybe three or four weeks, something like that. Then they would move on to another place.

BN: Did you ever talk to them?

RO: No.

BN: You kind of hung out with, there was the young group and the older group.

RO: Yeah, exactly.

BN: They were probably also Japanese-speaking.

RO: Yeah, they were.

BN: But there were was more of them than of you.

RO: Oh, definitely. And the first year I was there, they were just very upset because I didn't know how to pick grapes. They complained about, not just me, some of the others that had just started. But by the second year, I knew what I was doing, they stopped complaining about me.

BN: Who were the farmers? Were they Japanese farmers?

RO: Well, I think they were white, but the people worked there were all JAs.

BN: Was there like a foreman or a contractor or whatever?

RO: No, they were all JA, yeah, everybody, all the way up to the person running it.

BN: Right. So there was kind of an organizer or a boss who was also Japanese.

RO: Right, right. So it was a great experience for me, I didn't mind working there.

BN: So if you're sixteen, seventeen, this is like early 1950, 1951, early '50s. Interesting. Yeah, I hadn't heard of that before.

RO: You didn't do that when you were going to school, huh?

BN: No.

RO: You were one of those nice kids.

BN: Well, I don't even know if they did that in the... this is twenty-five, thirty years later. Yeah, I've never heard a story like this, of city kids kind of going off like that into these rural areas. But yeah, that's interesting.

<Begin Segment 16>

BN: So you eventually graduate from Roosevelt. What was your thought process then of what you were going to do?

RO: Well, I had already decided a long time ago that I'm going to college. And since we lived on the east side, I wanted to go to UCLA. I thought, well, I'll just go to a two-year school for the first two years, and then I'll make the long drive to UCLA. So the first year I was at... I can't remember the name of it, but there was a two-year school kind of in the downtown area. So I went one year and then I realized this is like being in high school. So I decided I'm just going to go to UCLA.

BN: Was it LACC?

RO: LACC, thank you.

BN: There were quite a few Nisei that were going there, right? I think my father-in-law went there. But again, he's quite a bit older than you.

RO: Yeah, I thought it was a waste of my time because it was like high school. And back in those days, the rules were not as tough as they are now. I could transfer after one year, so the second year I started going to UCLA and I was there for three years, got my undergrad degree there.

BN: How did you, how was the cost?

RO: It was free. Isn't that nice? [Laughs]

BN: Totally free at that time?

RO: Totally free. Well, we had to pay for books, but outside of that, it was free. Which was great for people like me who didn't have much money. I mean, there are still people like that today, but they don't get the free...

BN: Yeah, I believe UCLA is not free anymore. [Laughs]

RO: Oh, you've had children there. [Laughs]

BN: Yes. Actually, no, we paid even more.

RO: But you were there. When you were there it was expensive?

BN: It was affordable. You could, at that time, even when I was there, you could work your way through school. You can't do that now, it'd be just impossible. And where did you live while you were going to UCLA?

RO: Oh, initially, I was still living on the east side.

BN: So you're commuting across town.

RO: Yeah, and then my parents decided to move to the west side. So I think the last year or so it wasn't as far to go.

BN: Where on the west side?

RO: I can't remember the name of the street, but it was on the west side.

BN: But like Crenshaw area, or closer to UCLA?

RO: Oh, more like the Crenshaw area. In fact, I think it was just east of Crenshaw area. But it was so much closer. And then I think the last year, I stayed with a couple of, a few other guys, we rented a place and then I just, it was great.

BN: How were the studies at UCLA, having now come from a public high school and making this kind of jump?

RO: It was very difficult for me because they were, it was almost all white in those days, which is kind of hard to believe now, but I would guess ninety-five percent of the students were white. And I was, since I'd never gone to school with white kids, I thought, oh, I'm not going to make it. And I was a math major, so this was all white men, white boys then. And they used to get together to work on things together, but they wouldn't invite me to join them, so I was on my own. So that was one reason that I didn't do as well. The other was I wasn't that interested, so I didn't study and I was working on weekends, having fun. So I came out of that, I graduated, but I didn't have great grades. So in part, it was because I was, I thought the white kids were a lot smarter than me. And the other part was I was just not into school. I was working on weekends and still hanging out with my high school friends.

BN: What were the high school friends doing? Were a lot of them going to college, too?

RO: Interestingly, no. I think they were (not), I was the only one, I think, that went to a school like UCLA.

BN: So out of that group, you're sort of the smart one, the college kid. They were just working, kind of more blue collar type jobs?

RO: More blue collar jobs, yeah.

BN: Did you stay in touch with the group?

RO: Well, I moved after I got my degree. I worked for about three years locally, and then I moved to the East Coast, so I didn't see them. But I still see one of my friends.

BN: From that time?

RO: Yeah. He lives in... he doesn't live close by, but I do see him once every year or two, yeah.

BN: Did you ever have, like, a reunion of your group?

RO: Yeah, we did.

BN: Because I know some of the groups still meet regularly.

RO: It was really funny because I went to one, by then I had married a white woman and we had a huge dog. So we were living on the East Coast, and we came to the West Coast just to see my parents and all that. And so I went to one of these get-togethers with my own gang. And my wife was just, I guess she was afraid, because everybody else was JA. She didn't know any JAs at that point except for me.

BN: She was probably seeing a different side of you, too, that she didn't know about.

RO: Yes, that was a learning for her.

<Begin Segment 17>

BN: And then before, we'll get to your professional and career in a minute, but I want to loop back to your family. So while you're going to college, your parents are continuing, your dad is still doing, selling stuff off his truck.

RO: Off his truck, right.

BN: And your mom is working at a school.

RO: Yeah.

BN: Did they, I mean, you had been in Manzanar and so forth, did they ever talk about any of that to you ever?

RO: No. I think that's typical of their group, they don't discuss things like that.

BN: Did they ever? Even during the redress era or later?

RO: By then, I was living on the East Coast and really didn't spend a lot of time with them. I think my father died, but my mother was still alive, and I would go back to see her, but she didn't talk about that. I think that was typical of them.

BN: Through that time period. And what about your brother and sister?

RO: Yeah, my... let's see, my sister married a white man and my brother married three, at least three white women. So our whole family was, I think we were all just kind of getting beyond the JA world. So I don't think either of them paid attention, and I didn't really until I divorced my first wife and I started to get back into the JA, well, actually, it wasn't just JA, it was all people of color. And I joined a group and we did a lot of stuff there.

BN: Yeah, I was just curious about that. It is interesting, it's fairly unusual, actually, that all three of you would have married non-Japanese at that point in time. Maybe ten or twenty years later it was very common, but not at that time so much. Yeah, that's interesting. Okay, so you graduated UCLA. You ended up getting a degree in that?

RO: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 18>

BN: And then what did you do, you said you worked locally for a few years. What kind of work did you do?

RO: I was a computer software developer for three years. And that was when I finally realized that I was at least as smart than all these white people. And there was when, I think I was the only Asian in that group of software developers. And so it was good for me because I had nobody else to talk to, so I got to be more comfortable with white folks. And we'd play tennis together, we'd go out drinking and eating. So it was a good learning experience for me.

BN:� And they were accepting of you? I mean, you said UCLA you often weren't invited to study with the white students, but was it different once you started working?

RO: Yeah, it was very different. In fact, I hung out with them after work more than any other group.

BN: Were you still playing basketball and doing that kind of thing?

RO: I'm still doing a little. Because you probably have that experience, too. JAs don't quit basketball when they get out of high school.

BN: Right, until they injure themselves too badly to continue playing.

RO: [Laughs] That's right, yeah. So I played until I left, I think.

BN: And then what made you leave?

RO: I decided that I needed to be more, to see what it's like to live in the U.S. world outside of JAs. And I decided I really need to broaden myself, so fortunately, I was able to find a job on the East Coast and stayed there for, I don't know, twenty, thirty years, something like that.

BN: So where did you end up?

RO: It was in the north most area of New Jersey, which was all white. That's one thing I didn't realize that it would be so white. And in fact, when I first got there, I tried to find a room, and the first family I called to say, "I'm interested in the room that you have available," and she said, "Oh, come on over." So I went over there and knocked on the door and she said, "What is it?" And I said, "I'm here to answer," and she slammed the door in my face. And I thought, oh, what did I do? But fortunately, there was another ad for a family that were not Americans, they were white but not Americans, and they had no problem with me. Even though I was probably the first non-white that they had seen, it didn't matter to them. It was really a great experience, that I went from JA world to a white world, and I was literally the only nonwhite, I think, in our... and in the company that I worked for, they were, I think, two JAs and one black, and everyone else was white and there were about seven hundred people.

BN: Did you get the job first or did you go first...

RO: I got the job first. I called and told them what my experience was.

BN: So you were hired and then you moved?

RO: Right.

BN: And is this with Bell? Which company is this?

RO: I can't remember.

BN: Because I know you worked at Bell, right?

RO: That was later, Bell Labs.

BN: But this is earlier.

RO: Yeah. But it was a very highly regarded company in the software world. It was a great place for me to start.

BN: You did the same, were you doing the same type of work?

RO: Yeah, I spent almost all my life doing software development.

BN: And this is, what, like 1960-ish or late '50s?

RO: Yes, right around 1960.

BN: Because I'm familiar with what, to some degree, software developers did twenty or thirty years later. I don't have any idea what you would be doing at that point in time. What was that like?

RO: Well, when I first started, we would actually write the programs in the language of the computer. And so it was really kind of, almost... there was no language at any higher level. And then, over time, then we got some languages that were above that level, so that's primarily what I did.

BN: Are you using punch cards at this time?

RO: We started with punch cards, exactly.

BN: And then what languages, what were the languages you were using?

RO: Oh, there were no languages.

BN: There were no... this is before that even existed?

RO: Yeah.

BN: Interesting.

RO: And then when I came to the east, then I went to a very advanced company and they were using these languages, so I picked that up. It's really funny because when I think about my son, my son is in his thirties now, (he's making big bucks). [Laughs]

[Interruption]

BN: And you are not.

RO: It was embarrassing to have to admit that. It's more than I ever made. [Laughs] And I was the chief information officer of a large company.

BN: But then he's got to send his kid to a college that costs seventy-five thousand dollars a year, you went for free, so there's that.

RO: That's true. It's so funny, he's thirty-six, and he's not in a high position.

BN: That's the market.

RO: That's the market, I guess. So I'm happy because he's doing well, but it's kind of embarrassing that he's making more than I ever made.

<Begin Segment 19>

BN: So you mentioned you eventually found housing there. What else did you do at that time as a single guy? Were you involved in civic clubs and that kind of thing?

RO: No, no.

BN: Or were you just working?

RO: Well, I was working but I became friends with people who worked there, so we would do things together.

BN: What sort of things would you do at that time, recreationally?

RO: I think we bowled.

BN: Bowled, right, that was very popular.

RO: And we'd get together and drink. And that's how I met my first wife, she was one of that group. She fortunately liked me, so when we got married, that lasted ten or so years, and then she finally decided she didn't want to be married with me anymore so we split.

BN: Did you have children?

RO: Yeah, we had two. So it was, everybody else was white except for me, and then we had our own group of friends. We hung out together. So I really went from all Asian mostly, Japanese Asians, and then I went to a completely white world. I lived in that white world for, I don't know, maybe fifteen years.

BN: Because I know there were some Japanese communities, I mean, famously there was Seabrook Farms in New Jersey, there were folks in New York, but you kind of didn't interact with them.

RO: Yeah, Seabrook is pretty south of where we were.

BN: Yeah, pretty far. You're closer to New York, probably.

RO: Yeah. So after I got divorced, and I was looking for another woman, I eventually hooked up with the JAs in New York. But they were so different. I don't know whether you had experience, but they speak with a different accent and they're... anyway...

BN: Yeah, so at that time, it was still fairly unusual for Japanese to marry non-Japanese. So I'm just wondering, how did her family accept it, did your family accept it, and how was that?

RO: Yeah. Her parents were from, her father was, well, both of them were from Europe. He was actually, he came from Europe, and the wife's, her mother's parents came from Europe as well. So he was in Europe, typical white. So they were fine.

BN: What country were they from?

RO: He was from... the country we fought World War II against.

BN: Oh, Germany.

RO: Germany. And she was from the England area.

BN: So they were also immigrants, in a sense, almost like your dad.

RO: Exactly like mine.

BN: In fact, you were more American than they were because you had a Nisei mom.

RO: Right, yeah.

BN: What about your family?

RO: I guess they didn't have any, they didn't say anything negative, but I was on the East Coast and they were on the West Coast.

<Begin Segment 20>

BN: Then you mentioned bowling, and then I think you said you were with this company for like seven years or something?

RO: The first company I was with for three years here.

BN: I mean in New Jersey.

RO: Oh, okay, then I went to New Jersey, and I was with that first company for, I think, ten years. It was a not-for-profit company that developed software for business. Not businesses, but... I think we did some, for example, for the City of New York, but it was that kind of work that was going on here, just a terrific experience for me. By then I was comfortable because I had a record, I knew I could be as good as any of these other folks, so I got promotions and I did pretty well there.

BN: And then what prompted you to...

RO: Well, we were doing work for them and they were interested in me, so I said, "Sure."

BN: This is Bell?

RO: Bell Labs, yeah. We were doing some software development for them. And they were interested in me and I figured, why not?

BN: They recruited you. What sort of work? Was it similar?

RO: Yeah. And I think I went in as a second level management person. And you probably have read that I actually was one of the leaders starting an Asian American group, because Asian Americans were really not treated very well in general, and I'm just lucky I got in. I think there were five of us at that level, the second level. So most of the Asian Americans, they were workers, software people or hardware people that, not in management. So that was a whole, for me it was a terrific experience because it helped me realize that Asian Americans don't do well in management, they're just not hired or given positions. And that kind of got me back into the Asian American area.

BN: Were there a fair number of Asians at Bell? I mean, not maybe at the management level, but just among the...

RO: Yeah, there were, I would say maybe ten percent of the people, something like that.

BN: Which is a fair number for that part of the country at that time.

RO: Yeah, Bell Labs got people, really, they went to the top universities and they got people that were really good. Those people that were on the high level were often Asian Americans. So they brought them in, but they didn't promote them.

BN: So what kinds of things did the Asian American group that you help found do?

RO: Well, we... let's see, I'm trying to think of what we did. We basically organized all of the Asian Americans to speak up for themselves. And for example, we got some classes started which were taken by the management about Asian Americans. So we were able to get the management to understand they're missing some real capable people. And as a consequence of that, they increased the number. And I was the first to be promoted to the next level, the third level. And then the people that... my boss really didn't think Asians were very good. He really didn't want me promoted, but the vice president did, and that's how I got promoted. So he was out to get me, and fortunately, that was about the time that I had already decided to leave and go back to the West Coast as I had married. So it didn't hurt me, but it was still a lot Anti-Asian feeling in that company. And that's kind of typical, it's not the only company like that.

BN: How did your work change as you kind of became, rose in management, because I assume now you're not doing the actual engineering anymore.

RO: Yeah, we're working with customers, and finding people who can do the job and explaining what the work is that that they are... it's just kind of the higher level things that, I wasn't developing software anymore, but I was working with people to assure that they understood how to do it and that their work was such that we could, that was usable.

BN: Were there particular projects that you remember that you were particularly involved with at that time?

RO: Well, I was actually involved in a whole lot of them, but...

BN: Ones that were particularly memorable to you?

RO: One, we were working for the State of New York doing some development for them, and I go to the state (capital). I can't remember where it was, but it was not in New York City, it was up north. That was really an interesting experience because I was going all over the... all over and talked to people about what their requirements were and all that stuff. So it was a lot of fun. I found working fun, just for the rest of my life. No matter where I was working... well, that's not entirely true, I had some places where things didn't go so well. But generally, it was a lot of fun and I was able to generally get, make improvements to enable us to be more effective and to develop software and all that stuff. So that was a good place to work because I got to work with the City of New York folks because we were developing software for them, the state, and just all kinds of people. Since I was a manager, I did a lot of that working with the management from other places. I really had a good, in general, I had a good time working. It's such a great time. Well, I'm sure people say that of the kind of work they did, but I really enjoyed the work that I did.

BN: Then you mentioned you had two children with your first wife.

RO: Yeah, first wife.

BN: Were you pretty involved with them even after?

RO: Well, not... after we moved out here, they still lived on the East Coast.

BN: How old were they when you moved? Were they still kids?

RO: No. Let's see, I'm trying to think, they were definitely not, I think one of them was in college and the other was just finishing high school.

BN: So they were already sort of grown up.

<Begin Segment 21>

BN: So you mentioned earlier that after that, you started getting involved with some of the Japanese American community stuff in New York. Was that tied to redress or what kind of...

RO: Yeah, well, what happened is, since I started this organization at Bell Labs, I got to know a lot of Asians which was actually interesting because when I was here, it was all JA, right? Because there wasn't that much connection among the various groups. But back there, there weren't that many of any particular... there weren't a lot of JAs or Chinese or whatever. So I joined a JA, I'm sorry, an Asian group in our area. Let's see, what did we do? I can't remember. Anyway, we did things that would benefit the Asian American people in New Jersey. And then I think we were doing something with the people in New York, and then I got connected to the JACL and I met my current wife. And then since I was in the JACL, we did work to... I can't remember, why were we...

BN: Relating to redress.

RO: Yeah, it was redress.

BN: This is late '70s.

RO: Right.

BN: What was your feeling about redress at that time? Because I know the community had kind of mixed, different attitudes towards redress.

RO: Yeah, I was very supportive. In fact, we spent a lot of time on that, my wife and I. There was almost, when you think about it, there was almost no money coming out of that, it was kind of ridiculous to even get the amount that we got. But what the hell, at least...

BN: It was something.

RO: Yeah, and it suggested that the government finally realized that they screwed up when they put us in these camps. So in that respect, it was good.

BN: Did you testify at the hearings, or did you talk about your own experience much?

RO: Not much. I did go to schools and to talk about it. Most of the work that we did was my wife, she wasn't working, so she had the time she went down to... what's the name? The area where all the decisions got made. Anyway, she went down there for over a week to talk to the legislators.

BN: Oh, to Washington, D.C.

RO: Washington, D.C., area, yeah.

BN: So she's kind of lobbying.

RO: Yeah, so she was basically a lobbyist at that point, right.

BN: Yeah, we've got to talk to her, too.

<Begin Segment 22>

BN: So how long, you got married in, like, what, 1980, I think? How long did you stay back east after you got married?

RO: About five years.

BN: So you moved back here, back to California already.

RO: Yeah. And then it's been a long time, we're still together.

BN: Still here. What kind of drove you to want to move back to California?

RO: Yeah, she wanted to go back to Seattle. Finally... I talked, well, I didn't talk to her about it. I think it's in my life story about trying... she wanted to live there, I wanted to live in So Cal. And so I went to Seattle, and I picked out the top four companies and I talked to each of them about a job and only one of them offered me a job. It wasn't as good as the job that I had already been offered in So Cal, so I was able to say, well, look, this is (not) as good a job as the one that I could get there. I talked her into moving here instead.

BN: So she had to come down here?

RO: Yeah. So anyway...

BN: So where did you end up working when you came back here?

[Interruption]

RO: I was one of the top (Chief Information Officer) people in that company. And there were thousands of people in that company. [Narr. note: Volt Information Sciences is the company at which I worked for the rest of my life, my work life.]

BN: But you're doing the same general type of work?

RO: Yeah, same stuff, right. But I now had a title.

BN: I imagine just the nature of the technology changed so much that the specifics of the work was probably very difficult, right? You were starting twenty-five, however many years ago. Did you move here at that time?

RO: Out to this place?

BN: Yeah, or to this area.

RO: Yeah.

BN: And how long have you been here at this house?

RO: Twenty years, twenty-five years, something like that. Yeah, we're very, well, I'm very happy with the place.

BN: Yeah, it's very nice.

<Begin Segment 23>

BN: And then, did you have, you must have had children also.

RO: Yeah, I have two who are now thirty-six and thirty-one.

[Interruption]

BN: Right, same general field.

RO: Yeah. It's the same field, but it's totally different now, because changes have happened. So he did very well. He's kind of like me, the kind of work that he does, and our daughter is kind of like my wife doing not-for-profit things.

BN: Where does she work?

RO: I can't remember the name of that company. It's not a company, it's a...

BN: Nonprofit.

RO: Nonprofit, yeah. She enjoys it.

BN: Do you have grandchildren?

RO: Not with them, no. Well, my son is married, and my daughter hasn't yet gotten married. But he and his wife decided they didn't want children, which really ticked me off, but what can I do, right? [Laughs]

BN: You can't make them.

RO: No. Instead they got a dog.

BN: Well, sometimes people change their minds later.

RO: I hope so, yeah.

BN: Are they nearby?

RO: They're both, he's down in San Diego, and she's the other side of... she's in Hollywood, basically in Hollywood. So that's close enough.

BN: Yeah, close enough.

<Begin Segment 24>

BN: In retirement, what have you done and have you continued... I see pictures of you speaking in classes.

RO: Yeah, that's basically what I've been doing. When I retired, the first thing I did was spend a year on the (Orange County Grand Jury).

BN: I mean, you have your memoirs, we could add these things in the transcript later.

RO: Anyway, it was looking at the operations of the county, and I've always had a negative view of people who work for counties or cities or whatever. So it was a learning experience for me. And so we were looking at how well they were doing, they were functioning. That was one of our assignments. And I learned, the people at the top were pretty smart. And as you go down, they're not so smart, they're not working as effectively as I thought they could. So that was the first year, and then I've been a member of this group of older people at the local university. And we have connections with students there, so that's why I give the talks. But mostly we have our own classes. So, for example, I started singing, which was terrific, it's an area that I really didn't have a lot of experience with, but I did that. And I was actually singing solos. When I started writing the book, I had to stop that, because it was just taking too much time.

BN: What kind of singing were you doing? What kind of songs?

RO: You want to see what the songs were? They were mostly popular songs.

BN: Of your era?

RO: I'm sorry?

BN: Kind of from your...

RO: From our era, right.

BN: And then when you talk to schools, what are you talking about?

RO: Principally it has been stories of my life.

BN: Is this stuff about camp, or is it more about your professional...

RO: Probably more professional stuff. It depends who you're talking to.

BN: Have you told your... well, you wrote the book, I guess. I was going to ask if you told your own kids about Manzanar and camp and so on.

RO: Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I'm a different generation from the people, the older people who just (didn't) want to talk about it. I didn't feel, I'm not embarrassed by having been there, it's not like my fault. I didn't do anything wrong.

BN: Right, you learned from it and you did well and took lessons. And then just to go back, what happened to your parents after the war? I mean, when we last left, they were still working. Did they end up staying in California?

RO: Yeah. My dad died pretty young, I think he was in his fifties when he died. And my mother lived until she was in her nineties, so fortunately, I think I've gotten more from her than from my dad.

BN: Did she live by herself the whole time?

RO: After he died, yeah.

BN: So she was able to take care of herself.

RO: Yeah. Well, she eventually... well, she lived with my sister for a year or two, and then she went into one of these places for older people. And for her it was terrific.

BN: So she was still alive when you came back to California.

RO: Yeah. So anyway, where are we?

BN: Yeah, no, I'm... that's most of what I wanted to cover.

RO: Oh, good.

BN: I always ask, kind of end by asking if there's any last thoughts you have or anything you want to leave, knowing that this is something that will live beyond you and seen by a lot of younger people, if there's anything in particular you want to convey about your, things you've learned through your life, particularly as it pertains to Manzanar since that's kind of our area, but just in general?

RO: Well, I don't consider myself competent to be telling people what to do with their lives, I'm sorry. [Laughs] I mean, one of the reasons I wrote the book is because I wanted to get out that you can do it if you put your mind to it. But I don't know, I don't consider myself to be all that wise. So I don't know if I have anything to pass on to the children. Sorry.

BN: No, no. I think there's a lot in there that we can learn from. So, yeah, thank you very much, I learned some new things.

RO: Oh, good, good. It'd be boring otherwise. [Laughs]

BN: So good, thank you.