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BN: Then you mentioned bowling, and then I think you said you were with this company for like seven years or something?

RO: The first company I was with for three years here.

BN: I mean in New Jersey.

RO: Oh, okay, then I went to New Jersey, and I was with that first company for, I think, ten years. It was a not-for-profit company that developed software for business. Not businesses, but... I think we did some, for example, for the City of New York, but it was that kind of work that was going on here, just a terrific experience for me. By then I was comfortable because I had a record, I knew I could be as good as any of these other folks, so I got promotions and I did pretty well there.

BN: And then what prompted you to...

RO: Well, we were doing work for them and they were interested in me, so I said, "Sure."

BN: This is Bell?

RO: Bell Labs, yeah. We were doing some software development for them. And they were interested in me and I figured, why not?

BN: They recruited you. What sort of work? Was it similar?

RO: Yeah. And I think I went in as a second level management person. And you probably have read that I actually was one of the leaders starting an Asian American group, because Asian Americans were really not treated very well in general, and I'm just lucky I got in. I think there were five of us at that level, the second level. So most of the Asian Americans, they were workers, software people or hardware people that, not in management. So that was a whole, for me it was a terrific experience because it helped me realize that Asian Americans don't do well in management, they're just not hired or given positions. And that kind of got me back into the Asian American area.

BN: Were there a fair number of Asians at Bell? I mean, not maybe at the management level, but just among the...

RO: Yeah, there were, I would say maybe ten percent of the people, something like that.

BN: Which is a fair number for that part of the country at that time.

RO: Yeah, Bell Labs got people, really, they went to the top universities and they got people that were really good. Those people that were on the high level were often Asian Americans. So they brought them in, but they didn't promote them.

BN: So what kinds of things did the Asian American group that you help found do?

RO: Well, we... let's see, I'm trying to think of what we did. We basically organized all of the Asian Americans to speak up for themselves. And for example, we got some classes started which were taken by the management about Asian Americans. So we were able to get the management to understand they're missing some real capable people. And as a consequence of that, they increased the number. And I was the first to be promoted to the next level, the third level. And then the people that... my boss really didn't think Asians were very good. He really didn't want me promoted, but the vice president did, and that's how I got promoted. So he was out to get me, and fortunately, that was about the time that I had already decided to leave and go back to the West Coast as I had married. So it didn't hurt me, but it was still a lot Anti-Asian feeling in that company. And that's kind of typical, it's not the only company like that.

BN: How did your work change as you kind of became, rose in management, because I assume now you're not doing the actual engineering anymore.

RO: Yeah, we're working with customers, and finding people who can do the job and explaining what the work is that that they are... it's just kind of the higher level things that, I wasn't developing software anymore, but I was working with people to assure that they understood how to do it and that their work was such that we could, that was usable.

BN: Were there particular projects that you remember that you were particularly involved with at that time?

RO: Well, I was actually involved in a whole lot of them, but...

BN: Ones that were particularly memorable to you?

RO: One, we were working for the State of New York doing some development for them, and I go to the state (capital). I can't remember where it was, but it was not in New York City, it was up north. That was really an interesting experience because I was going all over the... all over and talked to people about what their requirements were and all that stuff. So it was a lot of fun. I found working fun, just for the rest of my life. No matter where I was working... well, that's not entirely true, I had some places where things didn't go so well. But generally, it was a lot of fun and I was able to generally get, make improvements to enable us to be more effective and to develop software and all that stuff. So that was a good place to work because I got to work with the City of New York folks because we were developing software for them, the state, and just all kinds of people. Since I was a manager, I did a lot of that working with the management from other places. I really had a good, in general, I had a good time working. It's such a great time. Well, I'm sure people say that of the kind of work they did, but I really enjoyed the work that I did.

BN: Then you mentioned you had two children with your first wife.

RO: Yeah, first wife.

BN: Were you pretty involved with them even after?

RO: Well, not... after we moved out here, they still lived on the East Coast.

BN: How old were they when you moved? Were they still kids?

RO: No. Let's see, I'm trying to think, they were definitely not, I think one of them was in college and the other was just finishing high school.

BN: So they were already sort of grown up.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright © 2021 Densho. All Rights Reserved.