<Begin Segment 1>

TI: Today is September 20, 2019, we're in San Francisco in your brother's house. What's this neighborhood called?

GN: Noe Valley.

TI: And we're here with George Naganuma. On camera is Yuka Murakami, and interviewing is Yoko Nishimura, and I'm -- I don't think I did this last time -- I'm Tom Ikeda, I'm the interviewer. I think I didn't say that last time. So, George, I'm just going to start off with some background questions. So can you tell me when and where you were born?

GN: Okay, I was born August 20, 1938, in Lima, Peru.

TI: Oh, so your brother said Callao?

GN: Oh, so Lima is the capital of Peru, Callao is the city.

TI: Got it, okay. And then this is, it's kind of like a seaport, it's kind of by the ocean?

GN: I guess so, because I remember the sailors that used to know, my father used to know sailors from Japan. So I guess it was close by.

TI: Now, do you have any memories of Lima or Peru? Because you were quite young.

GN: Oh, yeah. I remembered the earthquake.

TI: Oh, tell me about the earthquake. Oh, I think I do remember this, but yeah, tell me about the earthquake.

GN: Yeah, the earthquake, I think I was sitting on a table listening to a phonograph because I liked music when I was a kid all the way through. And then the earthquake, I remember facing...

[Interruption]

TI: Okay, so we were talking about...

GN: Yeah, the earthquake. I remember looking out in the backyard, we had a big backyard, and I could see the roof just tumbling down, and that's in my mind.

TI: How old would you have been?

GN: Gee, I have no idea.

TI: And when you say the roof coming down, was it like, what kind of roof was it?

GN: I don't know.

TI: You just saw things coming down?

GN: Just coming down. That's in my mind, it wasn't a dream, I don't think, I just remember that.

TI: Because you would have been pretty young.

GN: Yeah.

TI: Because this was, like in 1940, 1941?

GN: Right.

TI: Any other memories of the house?

GN: Of course, I remember the, in the back of the yard there was like a dance hall where my father used to give parties. I remember the dance hall because when they had the party and we used to go and peek what was happening inside, I could see people dancing. And that's it, I don't remember anything else, but I remember that.

TI: And if you close your eyes, can you even hear the music?

GN: No.

TI: Just could see visually what was going on?

GN: No, just people dancing and that's it.

TI: And was it like a fancy affair, I mean, were people dressed up? I'm thinking of, what's that, The Sound of Music where kids come down and watch the parents, I was wondering if it was...

GN: I don't know how they were dressed, really. I'm sure they were dressed up.

TI: You just remember going down there and peeking?

GN: Yeah, right.

TI: Any other memories of the house? Like do you remember where you'd sleep?

GN: No, I sure don't, not much about the house.

TI: How about the backyard with the chickens and ducks?

GN: I know that we had that, but I don't, I just don't remember that.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: So let's move on then, because I know you were really young, so I was not expecting much. How about the ship ride from Peru to the United States? Do you remember any of that?

GN: Yeah, I remember, not boarding the ship, but I remember being in the ship and the room that we were in. I remember there were seven of us in one room, I remember that. And we were all seasick, it was terrible, I'm sure. And I remember roaming around the ship and kind of was able to peek outside, and I can see the soldier standing guard with the rifle or whatever he had on his shoulder.

TI: That's interesting. I'm thinking a soldier with a rifle, you're on a ship, I wonder, what were they doing? Were they worried that you would go places you weren't supposed -- I'm trying to think where you would go and why they would have that? Or maybe it's to keep the men in a certain area? Because I know they kept the men away from the...

GN: Oh, yeah, they separated my father and the oldest brother.

TI: Yeah, so maybe that made sense to keep them under guard so they couldn't roam.

GN: Right, right. And I don't know that we're guarding so he wouldn't do anything. And I remember going to the, what do you call that, mess hall or cafeteria, I remember I peeked in there.

[Interruption]

TI: Okay, so we were on the ship and you talked about roaming around, you remember the mess hall?

GN: Yeah, the mess hall, they were, I remember they had some kind of dessert like a pudding, I remember that, I don't know why, but it was a yellow pudding. I don't know whether I ate it or not, but I remember that.

TI: So you were well enough, you were not seasick enough so you could actually go up there and eat food? I've been seasick, and sometimes food is the last thing you want.

GN: Yeah, I guess after a while, after you get sick, then everything else is okay after that, your sickness is gone. But that's about it, I can't remember anything else that happened on the ship.

TI: You mentioned the room that your mother and your sisters and brothers were in. Can you remember that room very much?

GN: No, I don't.

TI: I'm just trying to think how the seven of you could actually sleep in such tight quarters.

GN: No, I don't remember that at all.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: So let's move on. So do you remember getting off the ship or any time during that period from the ship to Crystal City?

GN: I don't remember getting off, but I remember when we got on the train going to Crystal City, inside the train. I remember the conductor was very nice, he gave us candy, and I still remember what kind it was, it was a Butterfinger.

TI: Wow.

GN: Yeah. And that's the first time I had an American candy.

TI: And was the wrapper on it and that's how you remember it was Butterfinger, or you just know what a Butterfinger looks like?

GN: Yeah, the wrapper and the taste.

TI: It's interesting what people remember, huh?

GN: Yeah, certain things, right? But the Butterfinger really was delicious, it was good. [Laughs]

TI: And this was the, you said the train conductor?

GN: Yeah, the conductor, it was a conductor at that time.

TI: So one of those guys with the little caps that would walk through?

GN: Yeah.

TI: Do you recall who else was on the train besides your family?

GN: No, not at all.

TI: But this gentleman was really nice.

GN: Yes.

TI: Keep going, so what else do you remember? Do you remember anything else on this trip?

GN: No, not until we got to Crystal City.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: Okay, talk about that.

GN: And then again, I don't remember getting off the train or anything like that, but I know that there were a lot of people with us, I don't know whether they were from Peru or what, but we were all together. And there were, I really don't remember it well, but I think they were, what do you call it, fumigating or they were shooting this powder thing on everybody.

TI: So you remember that. I think your older brother said, yeah, you guys were sprayed with, like, DDT, a white powder.

GN: A white powder, yeah. That I remember, a little of that. And then after that, I remember going to the camp. And then from there, we got our living quarters, barracks.

TI: Do you recall when you first got there, was there anyone there greeting you or the family or the group?

GN: I don't remember clearly all that, just remember that we were in a barracks. And the barracks just had a room where we slept, and then there was a separate cafeteria, another building where we would go and have our meal. I remember a lot of people there then. I still felt like a stranger, because we didn't know anybody. But I certainly remember the weather in Texas, in Crystal City, it was terrible, wow. That's the first time I heard thunder in my life, and that thunder was scary, oh god, that was... we were three of us in a room and we, three kids, you know, the youngest of us, and we were just crying because the parents and the sister and brother were out somewhere, I don't know, but we were just scared by the lightning and the thunder. It was the first time I ever heard it in my life, you know, that was very scary, I remember that.

TI: So was it the type of thunder that the walls would even shake?

GN: Oh, we didn't know what it was, we never heard thunder before. And then one of the things I remember was they had some activity there, they were having kendo, Japanese kendo, they were having, I remember I went to see people having some kendo lessons. That sticks in my mind.

TI: And was it like the full armor, the mask?

GN: I remember the mask most of all, because it was strange. Yeah, kendo, and that's about all that I remember.

TI: How about the swimming pool? Do you remember that?

GN: Oh, yeah. See, after that, then came where they moved us to a private home, away from the barracks. This was a single home where they put our family there. And this was different, away from the barracks, and that's where the swimming pool was located nearby.

TI: Oh, so before, when you were in the barracks, it was too far away from the swimming pool?

GN: We didn't even know about, there would have been a swimming pool.

TI: Okay, so when you went to these, the more apartment, is when you found out about the swimming pool?

GN: Yeah, actually it was a nice house.

TI: Oh, it was a house?

GN: Yeah, it was a house. It had a kitchen. It didn't have a shower or things like that, we had to go take a shower in a different building, the community thing. So then I guess it was better for us having a home where our family was all together. We had a garden in the front entrance, it was okay, I remember that, and I remember playing with my friends, I guess, we would go out and collect lizards and go catch little fish, minnow, in the creek, things like that I remember. Climbing trees, and, of course, going swimming. I learned how to swim on my own, it was just a natural for me, we just went swimming. And, of course, we found out two people drowned, right? But going swimming was fun. And after swimming we would walk home, and it's a big orchard, they were growing grapefruit, and we'd just go there and help ourselves to grapefruit. I remember that. And they had a lot of sugar cane growing everywhere, and I remember that. And they had lot of sugar cane growing everywhere, and oh that was good, we used to go and eat that almost every time we had a chance walking home. That was what we did, and there was a field where we used to go in the morning, we all lined up in the yard and we'd do exercise like they do in Japan, I guess.

TI: Well so tell me about that. When you say, so it was like a group exercise and you're all kind of lined up?

GN: Uh-huh, right, everybody was lined up and did exercise.

TI: And was it just the children or was it...

GN: Just the children, yeah. And I remember that part, and I remember the classroom or teaching or whatever, I remember none of that, just the exercising part. And we had some competition, running and things like that. I don't remember too well, but I know that we had that. And then also used to have movie nights, they used to show movies at night outside, and used to bring food and enjoy our movie. I don't remember what kind of movie it was, but I remember there were a lot of mosquitos, and it was a thing that, to keep the mosquitos away was to get some lemon and put lemon all over our body, our face.

TI: I've never heard that before. Is that, did people do that --

GN: That kept the mosquitos away. Yeah, so we used to put the lemon all over our face and arm.

TI: And it worked?

GN: I suppose it did, yeah. [Laughs]

TI: Now, do you recall, when you say movies and stuff like that, what language were you using at that point?

GN: I don't remember. You know, I don't remember what language we spoke when we were there, was it Spanish or was it Japanese? I don't remember that, it's funny. But while we were in camp, I don't remember what language we were speaking. It had to be Japanese because we never spoke Spanish. Even now, I don't speak Spanish that well. My older brother and sister, they can write, they can speak Spanish, they went to school in Peru, but we didn't. So I guess it was Japanese that we spoke.

[Interruption]

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: So, George, we were talking about Crystal City, and you talked about school and the swimming pool, but as you were doing these things, as you were going to the pool, I know you have your brothers, but did you have other friends when you were in Crystal City?

GN: No, I don't recall, again, friends that I went around with. I don't even remember going around with my brothers, I just remember what I did myself.

TI: How about going to other families' houses or rooms? Do you remember doing that?

GN: No, I don't think we did that either. Not much there, just what I did on my own, that's what I remember. I remember going to the dentist where my oldest sister was an assistant to the dentist. And I remember she told me, I don't remember, but she told me that when the dentist poked me in the mouth and I had some pain, I bit his finger. She told me that, I remember that, but other than that, I don't remember if I had any friends or remember my brothers at all, I was all by myself most of the time.

TI: How about when you needed to be taken care of, like maybe when you got sick or something like that? Was it your mother or sister who took care of you?

GN: Yeah, my mother, of course. I heard that, when I was in Peru, I got really sick and almost died, I had some kind of a sickness, and my oldest sister, she stayed up all night trying to get my fever to go down, and because of her, my life was saved.

TI: Oh, so she was probably having, like, cold cloths?

GN: Yeah, all night, right. So I was, actually I was going to die if she didn't do that. That's what I heard. Yeah in Crystal City, I just remember what I did, I don't remember my friends or my brothers being with me.

TI: Do you ever remember getting in trouble for doing anything?

GN: No, no, not at all, never.

TI: Because you were, at the end, you were, what, about five or six years old?

GN: About six or so, right, six. And yeah, never got in trouble. I mean, all through my life I never got in trouble, I've been a good boy.

TI: How about like, do you remember any teachers when you were there? I mean, you were going to, I think, Japanese school?

GN: Gee, I don't remember that. I don't remember the classroom or whatever, just the exercise in the morning, I remember that.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: Okay, so let's move on. From Crystal City, what memories do you have? Do you remember leaving or going to either Los Angeles or San Francisco?

GN: I don't remember leaving. I remember when I got to San Francisco, we had a sponsor that took care of us, I remember them. Afterwards, we were able to find a place to stay, the church that helped us get the sponsor in San Francisco. Was kind enough to get the family a place to stay.

TI: This is the Konko...

GN: Church, Konko church. And the reverend was, wow, he was a very powerful man. When he spoke, wow, I still remember him, he was really...

TI: Yeah, so tell me about that. When did you hear him speak? Was during his sermons?

GN: Sermons, yeah, during this sermons, go to church there. During his sermon, he was very powerful the way he spoke. He was a big man.

TI: And this was, I'm sorry, Reverend Fukuda?

GN: Reverend Fukuda. Big man and typical Japanese face, horn rimmed glasses. Really big, and he spoke with a lot of emotion, wow. I remember that as a child.

TI: And this was all in Japanese, could you understand what he was talking about?

GN: Yeah, some. That's the only language I knew is Japanese, so it's kind of hard for us to live in the U.S.A. Our friends were all Issei, they're Japanese Americans. And I was from Peru, so even going to school in San Francisco, I always felt that I was, like, I always felt like a foreigner. I had this thing, I would try to pretend that I was a Japanese American, although I wasn't. But inside, deep inside, I know I was different, and that was with me all through my life whenever... as I was growing up, I pretend like I'm being a Nisei, but I always had an accent, my English was... and I couldn't pronounce the word right. And so I'd try to not talk too much. So a lot of my friends didn't know I was from Peru.

TI: And so growing up, most people just thought you were Japanese American?

GN: Right.

TI: And you never told them? So explain to me why... did you think there was a stigma attached to being Japanese Peruvian, that there was something maybe wrong with that? Or what was your thinking? Why was that difficult for you?

GN: Not that I thought it was wrong, it just felt... I just felt that I was a foreigner living in the U.S.A.

TI: So you didn't want to really be different, or you just wanted to be kind of treated the same in some ways?

GN: Yeah, I wanted to be like the others. That's why I didn't speak too much English in front of my friends, I was always quiet.

YN: Do you still feel the same way?

GN: I still do; it's still with me. So I try to, not to show that I'm a foreigner. I'm a citizen of the United States now, and that kind of makes me feel better, but always with me, this foreigner. Even at school, always at school I had that in my mind. And I was afraid to speak in front of people, it held me back.

TI: So how does it feel, like even today, when you have a group like us interested in you because you are, because of your background as Japanese Peruvian, or were they interested in differences, how does that feel for you?

GN: Oh, now that we all know about this, Peruvian Japanese, it doesn't bother me as much, like before.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: So let's go back to school. So when you first came to San Francisco, talk about what it was like, and what grade did you go in, can you remember that?

GN: Grammar school, what grade was it? It wasn't kindergarten, what grade was I in? I can't remember.

TI: Because you were, what six years old?

GN: Let me see. No, I was...

TI: Oh, that's right, this is...

GN: Yeah, about eight or ten, nine or ten years old, I think. Because we were four years in camp, right? '44 to '48.

TI: Yeah, we had '47.

GN: '47, okay, '47 then.

TI: So you'd be, like, nine years old?

GN: About nine years old.

TI: So typically that's about third or fourth grade.

GN: Around there, third, yeah. And I just sat there. [Laughs] I didn't know what's going on, but I sat there.

TI: Because at this point, do you remember what language you spoke? Right before coming to San Francisco, was it Japanese? We were talking about this earlier, whether it was Spanish or Japanese, and you thought it was Japanese?

GN: Yeah, a mix of Japanese and a little Spanish. Slowly started to learn English in school, but I still wasn't quite fluent in English. So I guess the teachers found out that I was having that problem, and put me in a special class for a foreigner that didn't speak English. So it was a special class that they put us in. But even then I felt kind of bad, you know, different again, you know. But that's what it was. Then I began to get used to being able to speak English. I used to enjoy school more, and I like art, so I was doing a lot of drawing and things like that, and the teachers found out I could draw pretty good and they would ask me to, if I could come to their house and paint picture on the wall for their kids.

TI: The teachers would ask you to do that?

GN: Yeah, right, on the weekend, and they'll feed me lunch and everything. I was doing that as a kid in grammar school. And soon after that, I went to junior high school, middle school they call it now. But junior high school, I still felt bad, being a foreigner. I didn't try to... and I was behind in class, I was one grade lower than normal. Then the teacher found out how old I was and said, "Oh, you can't be in this class." I go, "If so, then move me up to another class." Even in middle school, the grammar school that I went to, they remembered me and they asked whether I can go in their grammar school and do some painting for them, for the stage, you know. From junior high school to go to grammar school and do this, so they asked the teacher if they can do this, and they arranged it so I did that.

TI: Wow, so you must have been a really outstanding artist for them to...

GN: I don't.

TI: ...for them to remember and want this.

GN: I just liked drawing, so that's what I did.

TI: Did you keep any of the work you did when you were in junior high school?

GN: No. But art was my major after that, I continued on to high school art. I did a lot of things for high school, the teachers, my art teacher asked me to design a placemat for the Teacher's Association, they had a dinner party and I had to design a placemat for them, and things like that. I began to kind of fit in more.

TI: So you were really known for your art, that seems like what people would...

GN: I guess. I didn't feel that I was anything special.

TI: Well, for teachers and others to really be so interested and wanting you to do so much.

GN: I guess.

TI: Yeah, I'm really curious, I would love to see some of our artwork.

GN: I know. Like in grammar school, they called me from the junior high school to go do some painting for this stage, they had a big stage and I had to draw some trees and things like that, big trees. I did that, oh, I remember I did that. So I began to kind of forget about being a foreigner as I went on my life. And in high school, I even worked for the principal of the school. And during my, one of my class, I think I it was my physical education class, instead of going to that, I was working for the principal.

TI: Doing artwork type of stuff?

GN: No, not artwork, just in the office. I don't know how I got that job, but they picked me. That was something different, and I felt good about that.

TI: And that was good, I mean, I think most kids your age would not want to miss PE.

GN: PE, yeah. But besides that, I joined the basketball team and tennis team, so that was okay.

TI: Okay, so that was more after your school.

GN: Right, right. So I enjoyed high school, lot of things that made me feel good.

TI: So let's talk about the community. As you're growing up and you're learning English, what kind of community activities were you doing? Things like, you mentioned a little bit about sports, like did you play basketball, do Boy Scouts? What were some of the other things that you were doing?

GN: Yeah. The Japanese community, of course, the church, the Konkokyo church, they sponsored a Boy Scout, they just started to have this Boy Scout program. And we were the first Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts to start this...

TI: Is the Troop 58?

GN: Right. Yeah, we were the original, my brothers and I were the original group that started this. We were in there from, until we were, well, until we were about, over twenty years old, still in the Boy Scouts.

TI: Oh, I thought you couldn't, I thought at some age, don't they kick you out?

GN: No, we were an Explorer. After Boy Scout then you go to Explorer, right? And a good program, we had a great drum and bugle corps, very famous in San Francisco. And we used to march every, all kinds of parties and parades. Lot of awards, and we had a great basketball team, we had three basketball teams.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: Tell me about the other, especially when it comes to the Boy Scouts and basketball, the other boys that you participated with. Were there any other Japanese Peruvians?

GN: No.

TI: How about, did you begin to learn about, like, did they come from the other camps like Tule Lake or Topaz or anything like that, did any of that ever come up?

GN: No, we never talked about that.

TI: Oh, so even though all of you probably were in camp, no one really talked about it?

GN: No one talked about what camp, yeah, that's true.

TI: So people didn't say, "Yeah, I was at Topaz"?

GN: No.

TI: You could say, "I was Crystal City," people would say, "Crystal City? Never heard of Crystal City."

GN: I remember one of the leaders, Boy Scout leader, he found out that we were from Peru, but he didn't tell anybody. Every time he sees me, he would talk about that.

TI: Oh, because he was just really interested and thought that was really interesting?

GN: Yes, he was, yes. To him it was really unusual, too, story, coming from Peru and all that.

TI: Now, did you retain any of your Spanish? Could you use, did you speak Spanish as you were growing up?

GN: Well, my Spanish, I didn't learn, well, I learned a lot of words from my older brother and my mother, they spoke Spanish at home. And I picked up a few words, and kind of got used to how it was pronounced. So when I pronounced Spanish words, it's perfect, it's not like an American trying to...

TI: Right, not like how I would do it. [Laughs]

GN: Yeah, right. So I learned that. When I worked for this chemical plant, there was a lot of Spanish people working there. I would talk to them in Spanish a little, and then they were really shocked.

TI: Because you're accent's so good?

GN: Yeah, the pronunciation was good.

TI: You would speak like a native speaker.

GN: Right, right. But then my Spanish was the old Spanish, it's not the new Spanish that they spoke, so a lot of things that I said, they said, "What?"

TI: Interesting.

GN: And then there was this older man, he says, "Yeah, that's right, you're speaking the proper Spanish," my word was proper, he says.

TI: So they must have been curious, like, so where did you learn Spanish?

GN: Yeah, so then I told them, "I'm from Peru, I was born in Peru." "What?" I told them my Spanish name, and then they start... so then when they see me, all the Spanish guys try and speak Spanish to me every day.

TI: And did you tell them your family's story and how you came to the United States?

GN: No.

TI: Now, why didn't you? Because here, it felt like you came across a group that, because of the language and the familiarity, and because many of them came to the United States in their different ways, would be an interesting story for them to learn.

GN: Not really, just that I was born there and I spoke Spanish, that's it. I remember the reason why they told me my Spanish was different, because I could say "avocado," right? Now they, like in high school, they pronounced "avocados" as "avocate." But Peru, it's not "avocate," it's "parta." So when I say, "Parta," they all say, "What?" They don't know what I'm talking about. But this old man said, "Parta?" he said, "that's avocado," things like that, it's really something. They were learning from me the old Spanish words.

TI: Now when you think about your life and different groups you've been in, one, it felt like there was, because of the language, some comfort with Spanish speakers, even though you didn't spend a lot of time. Is there a particular group that you just feel like, "Oh, I'm just so comfortable," that you can just relax and laugh? Has that happened in your life?

GN: Yeah, with some friends in the Boy Scouts. You get along with some, some you don't get along with, right? But the ones that I got along with, wow, we were good friends. Never mentioned about being a Peruvian or whatever. I was a Nisei, American, Japanese.

TI: So I'm curious, some of those friends that you grew up with, close ones, would some of them be surprised to find out that you're a Japanese Peruvian, or do they know now?

GN: Yeah, they know.

TI: Okay, they know.

GN: They didn't make fun of it or anything like that, they're good friends. What was it, really good friends. They would always come by the house and just visit me.

TI: Now that they know, have any of them just sort of, kind of, just one on one, just saying, "Hey, George, tell me more about this. You never really talked about this, I'm just really curious"?

GN: Not really. We never talk about that. There were a few of us that used to make fun, you know, my pronunciation, those are not my friends. I stayed away from them, but they used to make fun when I pronounce some words.

TI: Was that Japanese Americans?

GN: Yeah, Japanese, some of the guys from the Boy Scouts. So I stayed away from them.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: So when you walked in the door today, I commented that you're pretty tall, you're like five-ten. You talk about basketball, so did you play a lot of basketball growing up?

GN: Oh, yes.

TI: When I played basketball, if we had someone on our team that was five-ten or more, that was unusual. And so were you generally taller than people?

GN: All my friends were five-ten.

TI: Really? Japanese?

GN: Yeah, they were all my height.

TI: They grow up taller here, then. [Laughs]

GN: They're all in our Boy Scouts, they're all tall.

TI: So you must have had, when you played other teams, a taller team, then, no?

GN: Yeah, we were a taller team.

TI: So what position did you play?

GN: Forward, sometimes center. But we took a lot of championship.

[Interruption]

TI: We were just starting to talk about basketball and how your team was really good. But so, your team was, was it like a church team, was it sponsored by the church, or at this point, was it more of a community team? Talk about that.

GN: Boy Scouts, the parents, so we had a very good parents association, they were a hundred percent behind us. They furnished the uniforms, equipment, transportation, the parties and everything else.

TI: So when you say transportation, did you guys travel very much beyond San Francisco?

GN: Oh, yes, all over the Bay Area.

TI: So you had this Boy Scout team, what league did you play in?

GN: It was a, of course, a Japanese American basketball league.

TI: And the scope of this was the whole Bay Area or was it San Francisco-focused?

GN: The whole Bay Area. It was as far as the Sacramento, Petaluma and San Jose.

TI: And then so you had this Boy Scout team, how many other teams were in that league from San Francisco?

GN: Oh, plenty, there were a lot of clubs. There were some Boy Scouts that I recall, they were in Troop 12 and Troop 29, there were also church group sponsored basketball teams, Buddhist church. The clubs, so quite a few teams from San Francisco, of course.

TI: So how was it structured? Was there, like, different levels, like I'm not sure...

GN: Triple A, double A.

TI: And so what level did you play at?

GN: We played in triple A.

TI: Triple A, so the highest level.

GN: Yeah.

TI: And to give me a sense, so in San Francisco, how many other triple A teams would there be? Still quite a few?

GN: Quite a few, yes, or else, we couldn't compete.

TI: But then you would then travel to, like, San Jose and Oakland, Sacramento?

GN: Or they'll come here and play.

TI: And so every once in a while you guys probably had big tournaments where you'd get a bunch of gyms and you'd all play in a tournament?

GN: Yeah. It was a league, so it wasn't like a tournament all at one time, it was a league, winner, so played the other winners. That's the way it was. At the end, the last two would hash it out for a championship.

TI: And then from these leagues and stuff, did you guys sometimes form all-star teams that would go play other all-star teams?

GN: No, we didn't.

TI: Okay, we did that a lot in Seattle.

GN: We didn't do that. Maybe they did, I don't know, but I don't remember. But that was good for us, because the parents association, they furnished everything. They even cleaned the uniforms for us.

TI: Oh, they did?

GN: Somebody owned a cleaner's, so they would clean all the uniforms after the game.

TI: Wow, we didn't have anything like that. [Laughs]

GN: Yeah, and then the uniform was, the uniform that we had was the same uniform that the Olympics used.

TI: Wow, you guys were really, really first class.

GN: Yeah, oh, the parents association was fantastic.

TI: So you guys must have had the best uniforms in the league.

GN: I don't know, that's what he gave us. It's a red, white and blue uniform, had the tops, white, either white or red, right? Then we had a sweatsuit on that's nice, too. We were first class. That's why everyone wanted to join our troop, they wanted to join us because we had all these...

TI: Wow, so it's almost like a recruiting type of thing.

GN: Yeah, a lot of people that was other teams, we remembered, they somehow ended up being in the Boy Scouts with us. So they were playing for us, they're in the Boy Scouts with us.

TI: Interesting.

GN: Yeah, they, like I say, envy us, and the program was so good, Boy Scouts had a good program, going camping, things like that. Again, the parents association, they were right behind us, we'd go camping across Marin County, and there was a Japanese trucking company, they will come and take us on a truck whenever we go camping or whatever. We'd go to a parade, they'd put us on a truck with our equipment and take us to a parade. So it was a great, great association.

TI: Was there much emphasis on the boys becoming Eagle Scouts?

GN: Oh, yeah, lots of Eagle Scouts.

TI: Now, were you an Eagle Scout?

GN: No, only one that's not, not too good.

TI: Okay, but there were a lot of your fellow Scouts were, became Eagle Scouts?

GN: A lot of Eagle Scouts. Oh, yeah, they used to have ceremonies and all that.

TI: And so, today, many years later, are you still close to some of these guys that you would play basketball with the Scouts with?

GN: Now I don't see them anymore. While we were playing basketball league, old timers, then we had, we were close, we would see each other, but not after we quit. I don't see any of my friends, I don't speak to them. That's why I have this phone, that's what I need, I don't need anything else except one phone, just flip phone, that's it. I don't text, I don't email, nothing.

TI: But you talked about playing basketball, I think, close to being sixty years old, so that was about twenty years ago. Did you play basketball with the same guys, or did you play with other people?

GN: It was mixed, mix of the old teams that used to play against us, whoever wanted to play would get together at this high school gym that we rented. It was fun.

TI: Did you guys still use, when you were in that old-timers league, did you guys still use refs, or did you just call your own fouls?

GN: Oh, we had refs, you have to have refs, otherwise it gets out of hand, you know.

TI: Yeah, you play with these competitive basketball players, you need to have refs, right? Because otherwise you'd argue.

GN: Right, right, frankly.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

GN: So basketball was a lot for me, even when I was in the army, this is in, what... oh, we went before that now, we went, as a Boy Scout, we went to Japan, our troop went to Japan.

TI: Wow, that's a big trip.

GN: Yeah, and we got this special deal with the government to let us on a military ship, for us to travel with the soldiers.

TI: I'm sorry, military ship, this is a U.S.?

GN: U.S. They transport soldiers to Asia, right? So we were able to get on that ship, and it was like forty dollars round trip.

TI: So where did you...

GN: For one guy.

TI: So you took a ship from San Francisco to Japan?

GN: Right.

TI: Oh, that's really unusual.

GN: Yeah, it was about how many of us? It was a big group, and we took our drum and bugle with us, too, because Osaka was our sister city, and so they had a big deal for us when we got there.

TI: Oh, what a good idea. I never heard anything like that in Seattle, because Seattle was a major port with Bremerton, they could have done similar things.

GN: Oh, yeah. Like I said, our association was really good, they did all kinds of things. And got on a ship and, again, I got sick. But then after one day, get sick, get well, and it's nothing, it's okay. Then we got to Japan, wow, there was people waiting for us. We were like movie stars, people were waiting for us, and they wanted to see us, you know, I guess they'd never seen a Japanese American Boy Scout, it's the first time, it's the first.

YN: So how was the Japanese people's reaction to see the Japanese American kids?

GN: Oh, I guess they were curious, right? They were all there to see us and greet us, and then that was a big deal. Went to the hotel, big party, you know, Lion's Club of Japan or whatever, they were there, big party, and then we would travel to different cities, and we would go on a train. And when we got to our destination, my god, we got out of the train, there were people waiting for us. And all these girls would come out and they got flowers, all lined up, said, "Wow," we didn't know what's going on. Yeah, that was fantastic.

TI: And how old were you at this point?

GN: We were, what, eighteen, nineteen, twenty years old. I remember I was still going to City College.

TI: Boy, what an experience.

GN: Yeah.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: And how did it feel for you? I mean, when you go there, I mean, I remember when I went to... I mean, you grow up in the United States, right? Because we looked Japanese, people think, oh, you're Japanese. How did you feel when you went to Japan? Did you feel like you were Japanese when you were in Japan?

GN: It really felt like, felt like Japanese, but also an American, yeah, mostly American.

TI: And why do you say that? What made you feel like you were more American than Japanese?

GN: I guess it's the first time I went to Japan, it's just a new experience, different from the U.S. All those people, why did they come to see us? Who are we, right? We were just Boy Scouts.

TI: And were you guys in uniform? Did you guys...

GN: Oh, all the time, all the time. And summer uniform, short pants and short sleeve. Yeah, all these people were, and then we had a basketball tournament with the Japanese Boy Scouts.

TI: And how was that, how was the basketball?

GN: Different. They play a little different, they play like, they call it Olympic rules.

TI: Oh, so the way they check in the ball and stuff like that?

GN: They kind of had another extra step.

TI: They took an extra step?

GN: Yeah, like they're almost walking. We're standing here and saying, "How come he took another step?" It was unusual. We lost that game because everybody was just, we were just tired, we couldn't move, we're not used to that weather, I guess. Yeah, they're playing their friends, they come over here, drove, "They got an extra step over there, that's walking, right?"

TI: I know, because we're trained, right? At some point you kind of jump to defend them, they take one more step, they're right behind you.

GN: That was unusual. And then at one city, they invite each Scout to go to a family, spend the night with a family. I was able to go to a city named Takatsuki, and when I went there, oh my god, it wasn't a family, it was a big Boy Scouts church, just like the Konko church. There were Boy Scouts lined up just for me. I said, "Oh my gosh, I didn't know what to do."

TI: And it was just you, not...

GN: Just me. So wow, had to make a speech.

TI: And were you able to do the speech in Japanese?

GN: No, I did it in English. I couldn't do it in Japanese, right?

YN: So the other kids also had a kind of similar experience that they go to the other places and they are kind of also welcomed like that?

GN: No, they were just small families, they're in a house, they eat.

TI: They didn't have to make a speech? [Laughs]

GN: No. For me, it was, wow, what is this? And then they had Boy Scouts, too. And they had a lot of Girl Scouts, too. And then they assigned this Girl Scout to stay with me, to show me around. So we were supposed to, after, oh, we're supposed to write to each other, right? I couldn't write Japanese, so I never did write. All that, and then...

TI: Yeah, such an interesting experience, especially to go as a group. I mean, just the whole, going across on a military ship, and being welcomed that way.

GN: Yeah, we mixed in with the army guys in there, and they were telling us, "How old are you guys? You should be in the army."

TI: Well, so you did actually go into the army, didn't you? You had a couple years of...

GN: Yes, I did, that came after the trip to Japan.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: And so that actually, I was thinking, so you were born in Peru, and then you go to Crystal City and then you go to San Francisco. At what point, or did you ever become a U.S. citizen, and when did that happen?

GN: That's after the army.

TI: After the army?

GN: Yeah.

TI: So back then, I mean, I can't remember in terms of rules, but you didn't have to be a citizen to join the army, you could just be a legal resident?

GN: They drafted me, I got drafted into the army.

TI: Even though you weren't a citizen?

GN: I was a...

TI: Legal resident?

GN: I was a green card. So anyway, talking back to the Japan experiences, after that, next day, I was invited to go to City Hall of Takatsuki. Oh, what's going on? I go there, there's people, cameras, and all big deal again. And the mayor comes out and all these things, and then they give me a gift, Takatsuki makes this special ceramic thing that they give me as a gift, and they all take pictures. It was a big deal. Oh, boy, I was the luckiest guy, you know, to experience all that. I was the only guy, I was in the newspaper, too, Japan, so everybody in Japan saw my picture.

YN: So when they welcomed you at Takatsuki, do they also mentioned about your background as a Peruvian?

GN: No, just Boy Scouts.

YN: So you were kind of hiding that you were, or they just...

GN: No, I guess we didn't need to talk about it, just Boy Scouts from U.S.A., San Francisco.

TI: So no reporter kind of asked, "So where did your parents come from, which prefecture?"

GN: No, just about the U.S.A. Boy Scouts, and so we did all that. And I had, I don't like seafood too much, so every time we'd go to a place, we went to... what's the place, what do you call that place where you go to take a hot bath?

YN: Onsen?

GN: Onsen, yeah, we went to an onsen. Where was it? Kamakura or Atami or somewhere.

TI: Yeah, with a big...

YN: Atami is more, with hot springs...

GN: Atami? Yeah, we went there and took an onsen, then we all had to wear this Japanese...

YN: Yukata?

GN: Yukata and geta, and we were walking along, that was a nice experience.

TI: Well, how long were you guys in Japan, this group?

GN: Two to three weeks, something like that.

TI: Wow, what an experience. A large group, the organization...

GN: It was a big deal, yeah. So we did all that, we went out rowing on a boat, things like that. Then I got hurt there, you know. You know when you got the oar and you got two metal things, the thing slipped and went right into my, and I had a big cut in here. And so we had to find a doctor in this, in Atami, right? So walking down, so we found a doctor and he sewed me up there. Oh, boy, was that painful. It was a little house, like, not a real big hospital, a little house.

TI: Just got some thread? [Laughs]

GN: Yeah, I forget where the scar was, but anyway, I had that kind of experience.

YN: What kind of culture shock did you feel?

GN: Counter shock?

YN: Culture shock.

GN: Oh, culture shock? Not really, no. Like I said, I didn't like seafood, so every time we'd go to these Japanese, when we eat, I told the tour guide that I don't eat seafood, so they had to have special food for me. So he remembered, every time we'd go eat, he always looks at me, "You sit here." [Laughs] And I'd get served meat, everybody else was eating fish and shrimp, whatever, I'd get meat, I remember that was okay.

TI: That's so funny because you grew up, I mean, you were born kind of in a seaport, you live in San Francisco, another seaport, and you don't like seafood.

GN: My father was like that.

TI: Oh, your father was like that?

GN: I take after him, I guess, and he didn't like too much seafood either, and he was from Japan, right? Born and raised in Japan, but he didn't like seafood that much, I took after him. So soon after all this, then we went to Osaka, which was our sister city. Then they had a big deal there, too, wow, big field and people all around there, and a big show, taiko and everything, fire burning and everything, and that's where we came out, drum and bugle corps, marched in.

TI: That must have been interesting, drum and bugle corps, because that's probably not...

GN: Played for them, yeah. We did that for them, right, they were showing us all their things, and we had nothing. So the drum and bugle corps was great.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

GN: And then we came home, and there was a letter waiting for me saying, "Uncle Sam Wants You."

TI: Now, did that kind of surprise you, or were you kind of waiting for that?

GN: No, it surprised me, sure.

TI: Why did it surprise you? Because you weren't, because you had a green card?

GN: Yeah, I didn't expect to be drafted. So I went in the army for two years. Again, I played basketball in the army, right?

TI: When you say played basketball in the army, meaning on a special team?

GN: They had a league for the area, and so I played, and I guess what happened was, before that, we had an orientation when we first arrived. This is the second training, we went into clerical, typing and things like that, the major was to make a big speech and I was tired, I was falling asleep and he saw me, I got in trouble for sleeping. He said, "You're going to do KP, dishwashing, all the time." Oh, boy. But then I played basketball for them and we won the championship, right, and so he says, "No more KP, you're okay."

TI: Okay, so you were a really good basketball player.

GN: No, I just lucked out.

TI: Well, no, to play on the, this is the base team, right?

GN: Not base team, there's a lot of teams that play for this group.

TI: But you were good enough on that team so he liked you, right?

GN: Yeah. Well, what happened was I played good that day, I stole the ball, passed to my friend, went for a layup, and we won the game, right? So it made me look good. Anyway, that's my experience, basketball. So I finished my school as typist, clerk typist, and then I was finished, then I'm going to be assigned somewhere to go, assigned to army base. Then while I'm there, they put me to work while I'm there as a typist, and they put me with a bunch of WACs, women soldiers, I was the only man in there typing. It's all women typing, I'm typing with all these women. And my boss was my lieutenant, this lady, and she was very nice. She says, "Anytime you want a pass, let me know, you can go home anytime." So every weekend I'll go home.

TI: So where was the base? Where were you typing?

GN: Fort Ord in San Francisco, right? So I get to go home every weekend. Normally you had to ask for a pass and they have to approve, right? But she said, "You want to go home? Go." So it was that easy, people back home said, "Are you in the army or not?" because I'm always home, right? So my army was like a vacation for me. We never shoot rifle, I never shoot rifle that much, maybe once a year to qualify, but I never saw a rifle...

TI: But you were in the army, I guess, in the time where there was no wars, right? It was after the Korean War, before the Vietnam War...

GN: In between.

TI: Right in between.

GN: Yeah, so I lucked out. So that was good, and then again, for the second time, I joined another basketball team there, and this was a bigger deal, And so we played, and then we were supposed to play the championship game on a weekend, but I needed a pass to go home. But the company commander says, "If you play, I'll let you have the next day off, easy." So I said, okay, so again, I played basketball and they gave me a pass. Nobody else got a pass, but I got a pass to go home. So it was great, basketball did a lot for me. [Laughs]

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: I guess it's good being good at basketball.

GN: Basketball all the way. Then I went to, I had to go to Germany, I was assigned to go to Germany. So I went to Germany, and when I got there, they put me on a train all by myself. Normally you travel with a bunch of army, right? But they put me alone on the train to go to Frankfurt, near Frankfurt there was another base named Hanau. In Hanau there was an opening for a typist for a chemical unit. So I got there, there was a jeep waiting for me. So I got off, the jeep takes me to the chemical unit, and guess who's waiting for me there? The company commander is a Japanese Hawaiian.

TI: Oh, interesting.

GN: And he's taller than I am, and his name is George Togashiki. So I met him, he was nice.

TI: So a company commander, what rank was he?

GN: Captain.

TI: And what rank were you at this time?

GN: Still a private. I didn't even have a stripe, nothing.

TI: So the company commander came to greet you?

GN: No, no, he didn't greet me, but after the jeep ride, I went to see him at the office.

TI: Oh, you went to go see him, okay.

GN: So then he greeted me. And he told me where my room was and there was about how many people, there were twenty-four people in one room, sleeping, I don't want to sleep in here. Oh well, that's the way it is. And after the next day, we went to the office where I was going to be working, and the captain took me there personally. And went in the office, and everybody, "Attention," there was a captain there, saluting, but the captain says, "This is your desk," and it's got a thing with my name on this, says, "Private George Naganuma," said, wow, it's all for me, I couldn't believe it. So I had the first desk there. He told me, "This is where you're going to be working," and showed me around. That's my start in the army, and it was great working in the office. Every morning I would go there and make the coffee and they will have coffee, and just type all day. Just type all day, and all these guys outside, they're working in the snow, you know, all the other guys, all of us, just typing, bookkeeping and inventory. And the sergeant's here, and then the lieutenant's sitting there. No one bothers you, just type all day long. It was beautiful. Then lunchtime comes, we get on the jeep, go to the mess hall, come back, type again, the jeep takes you back home. Go back to your barrack, you change to civilians, go out and go see a movie, go bowling, whatever. It was a wonderful life, the army.

TI: So it was just kind of giving you a job.

GN: Yeah, like a job. And the PX, everything is cheap.

TI: Now, did the army ever discover how good an artist you were? Did they ever ask you to draw anything?

GN: Oh, yeah, that did happen at the second training, I forgot to mention that. They asked if anybody knew how to draw, so I raised my hand, I can do something. So all the noncommissioned officers has a, where they all have a meeting place where they have drinks and whatever. They wanted me to paint horses, horses and things on the wall, so I said okay. So I painted, that's what I did. So I didn't have to march or do anything, I'd just go straight to their room and paint every day.

TI: Just like a mural.

GN: Yeah, so that's what I did in there, I painted for them.

TI: So I think of all the people I've interviewed, you might have had one of the best military services --

GN: I did, I did. I tell everybody, that's a paid vacation. Oh, my goodness. Even in the basic training, it was...

TI: I've interviewed lots of men about...

GN: Basic training, all this shooting and everything, they wanted somebody to paint signs. So nobody, I raised my hand, I painted sign, I put numbers, and all these stations, shoot or they'd throw grenades or whatever, while they were doing that, I'm painting. So the art and the basketball really helped me. And then I joined a basketball team in Germany also, and then we won the championship on the base again, I was on a winning team again, I couldn't believe it.

TI: Again, you're a good basketball player.

GN: No, I was not. Then they gave us uniforms, then went to travel, went to Stuttgart, there was a tournament there from all the bases in Europe, they had a tournament there. Wow, unbelievable.

TI: Because military service is playing basketball and doing art.

GN: And they'd send us to go skiing, too. So we went skiing, and when President Kennedy came to the base nearby, they sent us to go see him on a bus. So I saw Kennedy.

TI: What an experience.

GN: Yeah. Paid vacation, my goodness. My uniform never got dirty, my boots were always shiny, and the guns we shoot once a year, and that was it.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: So, George, we're coming to the end of the time. No, this is good. But anything else you want to talk about? I mean, there were other questions, but then I realized we'd sit here for like two more hours, and then we wouldn't interview your brother, so I just want to make sure. So anything else that you wanted to talk about? I mean, here's one question for you to think about. You talk about how you felt like you were an outsider and a foreigner, and even today you feel a little bit like that?

GN: Oh, yes.

TI: But now that the Japanese Peruvian story is better known, especially amongst the Japanese American community, does that help? Do you think that you feel closer to people, or do you still feel like you're an outsider? Because when I hear your stories, you don't strike me as an outsider, so I'm just curious.

GN: Yeah, I don't feel that much, as an outsider now, as I did before. It's better now. And I don't mind talking to people about that now.

TI: It's a really important story, and I think your family story is just remarkable, and your story is remarkable, too. Because you come across as a self-effacing, oh, kind of quiet, and then your stories are pretty fun.

GN: It's too bad my parents, they suffered a lot. My mom thought she was going to be shot, killed, after they arrested us.

TI: Now, was that something that she ever told you, or was that from your sister?

GN: My sister told me that. She thought they were going to die. And you compare what happened to the Jews in Germany, right, just like that, it was happening. They'd come and take you at gunpoint, right, what an experience. For kids, the father and mother...

TI: But you're story is pretty remarkable when you think about your family was in Peru, and essentially kidnapped and brought to the United States. That story is, I mean, even in Germany, they would say, "Really?"

GN: And then after it was over, they said, "You're an illegal alien, so get out." Yeah. No money, I mean, nothing, get out. And where did you go? Peruvian government, they don't want us, because they stole everything that my parents had, Japan was surrendered, so where do you go?

TI: So your story is pretty horrendous, too.

GN: Couldn't believe that. They kidnapped you, they put you in a foreign country, and then they say we're illegal aliens.

TI: Well, they took away your parents' papers so that they couldn't go back, they couldn't leave.

GN: The Peruvian government didn't want us, because I think the Japanese community was doing better than the government of Peru. They were ashamed, I guess, I don't know, but they took everything that my father worked for in his life, the government took all that, Peruvian government. I mean, to take everything away from you and then say, "Go home," I feel sorry for my parents, that's all.

TI: Well, thank you so much for spending the time.

GN: Well, I'm glad I was able to share my...

TI: No, this was a fun one for me.

GN: Really? [Laughs]

TI: Thank you.

<End Segment 15> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.