<Begin Segment 20>

TI: So we're kind of at the end of the interview, and I was just thinking, is there anything that we haven't talked about...

RW: Probably all kinds of things.

TI: ...that you want to share? Yeah, there's just so many things. This is a pretty remarkable interview.

RW: I don't know, I think there's always things, but I think it's sort of just folks... I think it's Buddhistic in a sense, that if you can clear away the cobwebs of ego, that you can kind of see your place and the place of your work and your community more clearly. That it doesn't have to be a certain way.

TI: So tell me, so when you say the "cobwebs of memories" or of the journey that we're going through, give me an example, be specific.

RW: I think, for me, the major takeaway is that the role that I can look back and see the role to, in a sense, be a bridge or be a bridge to kind of build, like even a fiscal support for the organization, that while those kinds of things don't get identified as kind of the guy who carries the ball over the goal line, right? But you know what? Looking at it, I was never really kind of equipped to be that guy. I didn't have the background information, I'm not a scholar, I'm more touchy-feely. But I can be disciplined, I can make sacrifices, I can see big picture, I can help kind of bridge things and talk to people. That's what I brought to the party, and that's what I brought, and sort of the dish I made, was good. I would have liked to have made the main dish, that's kind of cool, too, but that wasn't meant to be. And to say, this is good, and it's in the sense that the kind of... I've got plenty of recognitions, like resolutions, I've had all that kind of stuff, and I actually don't value it. I mean, like I've been in city government where I'm the one that passed it out, and will look at, "Oh, that's a five-signature resolution," or, "That's done by a machine." I mean, some of this is junk.

TI: Well, so yeah, so "clearing the cobwebs"...

RW: But it's just personal satisfaction. Like I'm done, I don't have to go back to... like even we're doing a kind of panel in a few weeks on the memoirs of Jack Svahn. But one of the things, for me, I'm in a better position to, I think there's other folks. Like I think Floyd, Frank, a lot of folks made major contributions, right? But they're not of the sort that kind of waves their own flags, either. But I'd like to play a role in underscoring that, like saying, there are people who had bigger platforms and the microphone and all that. But just kind of the theme work of, like, there's a lot of folks that made this happen, like the Mary Tsukamotos made this happen, NCRR, like Rudy Tokiji.

TI: Rudy Tokiwa?

RW: Tokiwa. Just showing up there, I know it makes a difference to have people walk the halls, it does. And some folks in... some folks, not the JACL, but some folks would discount that, saying, "They're wasting their time, you really need to talk to the powers that be," there's a role for all of that. And anyway, I think that if and when I can get to full retirement, I can help facilitate more of this kind of stuff. And particularly for younger generations, I have a meeting this weekend with some of our younger organizers, and I could see things that they can't see yet.

TI: See, this is the important thing, and why I'm curious about documenting what happened in redress. Because as you're talking, it's clear that there were so many parties, and in my work, if someone asked me who was the one, there's wasn't a "one." But yet, all these individuals that were, in some cases, in the right place at the right time, but it all happened. And I think it's really important for people to understand that that's how things happen sometimes. And that's what I'm trying to get a sense of.

RW: You know, this gets a little weird, but increasingly as I've aged now, I really have sort of this kind of intuitive belief that there is cosmic stuff that goes on. And redress strikes me as that, that all of these folks, and things happening separately all over the country and all over the planet, at different times intersect to build what you can call a campaign or movement or an event or whatever. But there's no way you could script this taking place. You couldn't design it, because it wasn't even knowable to you. Most of these folks, I didn't even know existed, or even their pathways.

TI: But, see, I agree with you, and I'll take it one more step. I think those cosmic forces, sometimes there are these individuals who can make that happen. They don't have to do all those things, but by their beingness or presence, they can create that, is what I...

RW: I think there's pieces of it that go on, but I think if the... when I was at JACL, and I still have it someplace, I had a three-wheeled Rolodex, right? And I always thought, if there's a fire, earthquake, that's what I'm going to take, the three-wheeler. Like right now in my Outlook, it's like around ten thousand. And I don't manage it well because I don't... but I can still search enough, and in hindsight, I should have done that differently. But I think some of that is cosmic as well, just that it's there, because it'll just show up at the darndest times. Like I'll be looking for someone else, and something else will pop up in the search, I go, "Oh yeah, that's who I should..." and I don't know how to explain that. My own pathway of work, it seems to me that the thing of coming out of, like, Asian movement and drug abuse, community building, JACL, human relations, CRS, and getting every job that I ever had, each one prepared me for the next step. Because all that stuff in redress or in drug abuse, that's all stuff that is resource for what I do now. Like even just as an organizer, you could, one, have a deep appreciation for people who do organizing, and you could help them. Not by telling them what to do, but sometimes just by asking questions. "What are you going to do about this?" Like right now, Indians are going to do their third-longest walk across the country, and they're going to start at Alcatraz. So we've done the first two with them, we're working now on the third. And with the new organizers, they called it something like, "We want to do the third-longest walk." I said, "You realize this is February and you've got to go over the Sierras?" And then said, "Did you get a permit to go over the Golden Gate Bridge?" "No." "Well, you need a permit." But you need a permit if you got more than a hundred people. So if you had two marches with each one with ninety-nine, you can just walk along the side. But you should still talk to the cops.

TI: And don't do it in February.

RW: Or he said, "And then we're going to carry signs." I said, "You're not going to want to carry signs." He said, "No, we need to get our message." I said, "You're going to leave the signs on the other side, but when you're crossing the bridge with signs, the gusts are going to take you off the bridge, that's dangerous for your folks." So there's just logistical, practical, that you could kind of go through it. That's cosmic. Because the first time you're going to do a march across the Golden Gate Bridge, you just think, no, just line up your folks, get your stuff, go across, it seems A to B, but there's a whole lot more to it, but we can help people be safer.

TI: Yeah, because your experience...

RW: And I value that. I mean, know like in crowds, I could spot a crowd surge, and now that I'm older, I have to give myself more distance to avoid it, but I could still spot where it's going to surge. And you can't necessarily train that real easily, there were these dynamics. Anyway, I think you for this as well. This is sort of bucket list for me as well.

TI: To get some of this just documented?

RW: Yeah. People have said, "Will you write a book?" And I went, "No, I don't want to write a book." The most I think I'll do episodic things, maybe on Facebook, that capture little vignettes.

TI: Well, what's going to be useful to you is from this interview, we'll generate a full transcript, and you will, based on the length, it's going to be probably about eighty pages, and that could be kind of this thread that you could then annotate more, but it'll give you this foundation.

RW: Yeah, I think it does do that, but I'm not disciplined enough to sit down and do a book.. There may be some other shorter form things, but I think my interest is really trying to capture it in a more anecdotal way, but I don't know what that vehicle is yet.

TI: Well, you're an excellent storyteller, so it's going to come from there, I think.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.