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TI: Well, I learned more about you, so in terms of other organizations, and because of your activist background, your L.A. roots, NCRR, they were a strong force also during redress, and at times they would bump heads with the JACL. So did your relationships with the folks at NCRR help at all?

RW: I think so, I think so. But I think that's part of the sacrifice on my part. I've got to give a pint of blood for that to occur. And it's like saying, like that same thing, when I was describing Japan, like you do the interpretations, so you're talking to folks and saying, "Hey, look, I can understand this looking this way." And some of it is actually true, like so-and-so said that, and he's an asshole. But I do know that other people within JACL think he's an asshole, too.

TI: Okay, so you tell that to these... yeah.

RW: Yeah. And you can't control all of your assholes, we can't control all of our assholes. And then so we had --

TI: But from an interest standpoint, we have this common interest that we have to work with.

RW: Yeah. And then you could kind of take advantage of, I could take a Frank or a Floyd to meet with, quotes, "movement people," and they would not regard them as the enemy because Frank and Floyd are folks with integrity. And you can pick that up in how they talk about issues and sort out something. Like, "Help me understand this, this is what our interest is." I mean, they're negotiating with people in the sense of, "This is my understanding, if you could improve my understanding." And there's not a put-down, I mean, there were portions on both sides that were putting down others, that went on in both. And to some extent, you can't avoid that, that's going to go on. I mean, that went on in all segments. Bill Hohri said nasty things. Aiko was in that camp...

TI: Well, and then the Seattle camp, too, that was another camp.

RW: Seattle had their own camp. The Seattle testimony was like, "We want a million dollars except for Idaho farmers," right?

TI: No, I don't know about that one.

RW: That came out in one of the testimonies, like someone was pissed off at Idaho farmers.

TI: Oh, so everyone should get money but the Idaho farmers?

RW: Yeah. And we're going, what is that about? But they're just words... people are people, there's gonna be some of that. There's stuff within JACL.

TI: Were there times when you just wanted to throw your hands -- because I look at all the characters and the groups and what they were saying, and even to this day what they say. Were there times when you just said, "Screw it?"

RW: No, I didn't say, screw it, but I felt like it. I mean, it was hard, it was hard. I can see our progress, like there was a point when... like my son was adopted, and at the very beginning, I remember Senator Inouye saying, "We don't have a chance for this bill." He says, "But we have some real opportunities to do some remarkable public education." And that was sort of my orientation to it.

TI: And that was early when he was encouraging for the commission hearings versus...

RW: Right, and that's one of the rationales for the commission. He says, "Who knows, the hearings may change that." But right now, if we went to a vote now, you had no chance. And if you went down, you don't get a second bite at it. He says, "This give us a shot, and I still don't think we can do it." So when we got further down into the campaign, my original plan was, I'll give five years, and then Jay would be time for first grade, I want to be back in L.A. Because we had no support system in the Bay Area, really. Like when you're back in L.A., hey mom, take him, you don't have that. And I wanted Jay to have the sense of, a stronger sense of family and community. I mean, you have it in San Francisco, but it's different. Then Inouye says, "I hear you're gonna leave." I said, "Well, I didn't say that, I said my plan was..." and said, "and actually, it's 'cause you said we only had a chance for a public education campaign." I agreed with him, I thought that was a wonderful opportunity, and we really kind of built a lot around that. "But my son is this age now, this sort of our plan." And he goes, "We can get this, you can't leave now."

TI: At what point was that?

RW: You know, I don't remember the exact date, but it was kind of like later.

TI: So after the...

RW: It's got to be somewhere around '85/'86.

TI: Okay.

RW: Because that's when we're looking at Jay.

TI: He's about, getting ready for school, right?

RW: First grade. It's different when he's younger. I had Jay with me, like I remember holding Jay as baby and having the bottle and talking to Congressman Matsui, right? It's different, and our JACL staff, they're wonderful. Massie's like, "Young man, give me that baby," and she'd take him.

<End Segment 15> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.