<Begin Segment 1>

BN: Okay, we are here in Los Angeles to conduct an interview with Mr. Wilbur Sato. The interviewer is Brian Niiya, and on the camera is Dana Hoshide. This is February 4, 2019, and we're just going to get right to it. So thank you, Mr. Sato, for taking the time to speak with us. You've had a very interesting life, and there's a lot of things I'm really anxious to ask you about. We wanted to start with, as we often do, if you could tell us about your parents. Your father, I believe, was Issei, and what you know about when he came and reasons for why he came from Japan.

WS: I don't know too much about that. All I know is his parents came and had to get a brother, and a sister, I think, but they all went back to Japan.

BN: And what was his name?

WS: Pardon?

BN: What was your father's name?

WS: Kijiro.

BN: And you don't know when he came?

WS: What's that?

BN: Do you know when he came?

WS: No.

BN: But interesting, he already had a parent and family here already that he was joining? Do you know where, what part of Japan he came from?

WS: No.

BN: Now, on your mom's side, your mom was Nisei. What do you know about her and her family? Where was she born?

WS: She was born in, I think, San Bernardino.

BN: San Bernardino, California?

WS: Right, I think so.

BN: And what was her name?

WS: Rosemary Teruko Sato. Matsuno.

BN: I'm sorry?

WS: Matsuno.

BN: As her maiden name?

WS: Yeah.

BN: And do you know how, the circumstances of how they came to meet?

WS: I don't know. How who came to meet?

BN: Your parents.

WS: I think they were thrown together. I'm not sure whether or not... I don't know, I think she was living with an older couple, and I think the older couple got her pregnant, I think, I'm not sure, I think so.

BN: Okay. And then she was Nisei, so when she married an Issei, she would have lost her...

WS: Citizenship.

BN: Right. Did she ever recover that?

WS: I think so. I think they changed the law.

BN: Right, but not for a while.

WS: Right.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

BN: So they get married, and then you said you were, where were you born?

WS: 1929.

BN: And where?

WS: Pasadena.

BN: And then did you have siblings?

WS: I had a brother that was a year and a half older. He was born December '27, I think.

BN: And that would have been '27?

WS: Right.

BN: And then do you have memories of Pasadena, or did you grow up...

WS: No.

BN: Because I know you moved to Terminal Island later.

WS: I think we lived in Long Beach for a little bit, and then Los Angeles on Trinity Street and then Terminal Island.

BN: What did your father do at that point prior to Terminal Island?

WS: Prior to Terminal Island he worked, his friend Hideo Date had a brother who had a flower shop, I think. And those two would, I mean, my father and this Hideo would work picking fruits and stuff in Central California. Let's see... so I don't know why they went to Terminal Island, I think my great uncle had a barge, and there was cannery work.

BN: Great uncle on which side? Is this on your dad's side?

WS: I don't know.

BN: But you already had some family in Terminal Island, that they were joining. And then what did your dad do on Terminal Island?

WS: He worked for this great-uncle.

BN: Doing what kind of work?

WS: Well, he drove the truck to sell the fish in Central California and so forth, dried fish.

BN: And the great-uncle had a fishing boat?

WS: Had a barge.

BN: He had a barge.

WS: And a small fishing boat. I don't know whether he bought fish. But they cleaned it, salt it and dry it.

BN: And then what about your mother?

WS: Mother worked in a cannery. That was during the Depression.

BN: Now, did you live among the large Japanese community?

WS: No.

BN: You lived away from them?

WS: That was the Terminal side.

BN: And what kind of home did you live in?

WS: Well, that's the Depression, so we were lucky we had a big house. We had a huge house. So their friends would come on the weekend and they'd have parties.

BN: How did you come to have such a big house?

WS: I don't know, I guess Depression, and it was available and we rented it.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

BN: Now, how old were you when you were, when you moved to Terminal Island?

WS: I think, first grade.

BN: So you started school there. And when you went to school, did you go to school with all the other Nisei kids?

WS: No.

BN: Separate? So you were going to a separate school.

WS: Right. Because we didn't live in Fish Harbor, they were two separate schools.

BN: Right. So was your school mostly, then, white?

WS: Mixed, Mexicans and whites.

BN: So there were relatively few Japanese.

WS: What?

BN: There were relatively few Japanese in your school.

WS: Right.

BN: Did you interact, though, with the...

WS: Fish Harbor?

BN: Yeah, the kids from Fish Harbor?

WS: Not much. They would consider us enemies, I guess.

BN: What about things like Japanese language school?

WS: Well, we didn't speak Japanese, so the parents enrolled us in Japanese school, but we didn't speak Japanese, we didn't understand Japanese, and we didn't, part of that group, so we didn't last very long.

BN: So even though your father was Issei, he spoke English?

WS: Yeah. He wanted us to learn Japanese, but we weren't part of that community.

BN: Did you speak English at home?

WS: Yes.

BN: What else can you tell us about your family's life on Terminal Island? School, you mentioned brief Japanese school, but things like sports or Boy Scouts, or anything like that?

WS: No. There's a mixed group on the north side of the island, so we had people from Arkansas, Oklahoma, and all over the place, Germany.

BN: These were your friends, were among...

WS: They were our classmates, we had a different school. That's the problem, we had separate schools.

BN: What was the name of your school?

WS: I don't know.

BN: I'm sure we can look that up. And you stayed there pretty much until the war came?

WS: Yeah. I went all the way through grammar school there, into junior high, seventh grade, and then the war.

BN: Was your junior high school now also on the island?

WS: No.

BN: You had to go...

WS: Take the ferry to San Pedro. Dana Junior High.

BN: I'm sorry, the name of it?

WS: Dana.

BN: Dana.

WS: I just started and the war broke out, and we had to move. I think they kicked us off the island.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

BN: Now, do you remember much about December 7, 1941?

WS: No, not too much.

BN: Or what the reaction of your classmates and so forth, when you went back to school the next Monday?

WS: Let's see. We were in a mixed school, so a very different school from the Fish Harbor people. So we didn't have too much of a reaction, but we had to leave the island.

BN: Now, many of the men on Terminal Island were picked up by FBI or so forth. Was your father affected at all?

WS: He was picked up, but then they let him go right away.

BN: Right away being a matter of days?

WS: A matter of days, yeah.

BN: Did he ever talk about what happened?

WS: No. See, he was a young Issei, he spoke English.

BN: Was he... well, maybe we'll get to that after we get to Manzanar. Now, was there... what was the general sense of the community in those, because you had a couple months between Pearl Harbor and when the community was evicted, basically. Was there a sense that something was about to happen, or did you just go on, more or less, with normal life?

WS: I think we had to move out around March, I think, I'm not sure, but somewhere in there. So it was kind of a strange time.

BN: Now, what happened when the Terminal Island community was told to leave? Where did you go?

WS: Luckily we had a truck, and we had some friends who had a house in Boyle Heights. So we were able to... then we had some family that lived in Venice that helped us, too. So we moved from Terminal Island to Boyle Heights.

BN: And these were just friends of yours, or friends of your family?

WS: Right, they were JACL people.

BN: Do you remember the name of the family?

WS: Honda, John Honda.

BN: Was your dad connected to JACL at all? He was Issei, right?

WS: [Shakes head].

BN: So now you've been kicked out of Terminal Island, you're in Boyle Heights, did you continue going to school now in Boyle Heights?

WS: Yeah, went to Stevenson junior high.

BN: And did you know anybody there?

WS: No. It wasn't very long, we were kicked out in February, ended up in April in Manzanar.

BN: Was there any kind of reaction from the people in Boyle Heights to, your family is coming from Terminal Island now, moving in. Were you welcomed or did anyone give you trouble?

WS: No, the teacher was really nice, had a nice teacher. And we had an aunt that lived there, so we just kind of walked around, didn't know the town, so we walked around, got to know the area. We weren't there too long, and then off to Manzanar.

BN: Okay. So from Boyle Heights you get the exclusion notice, and then what happens then? Do you remember much about that day when you had to report?

WS: We were all dressed up, Sunday clothes, we reported to the train station. And soldiers were there with their bayonets on and everything. And they gave us things for identification tags, put us on the train with the windows rolled down, and off to Manzanar. But it was dark inside, and people were crying and everything, didn't know where they were going or anything.

BN: Do you know what your parents did with their possessions? You mentioned they had a truck and their other household goods?

WS: Somehow they got their stuff into storage. I think they knew JACL people, so they got their stuff in storage.

BN: And they were able recover it after?

WS: Yeah, they had a truck, they had a car and everything.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

BN: Now, what was your first impression when you arrived at Manzanar?

WS: That was strange because when we got there, we didn't know what's going to happen to us. But the people that met us were friendly, nice and friendly. But we got there late afternoon, and they gave us a room in the barrack. It was terrible; it was dirty, dusty, iron beds with a straw mattress, we had to fill bags with straw. And that was it, it was pretty, kind of lonely and strange.

BN: Do you remember what block you were in?

WS: Block 9.

BN: And do you remember who else lived in the block? I mean not specifically...

WS: Terminal Islanders.

BN: It was all Terminal Islanders?

WS: Yeah.

BN: But these were Terminal Island people from the Fish Harbor side, so they're not necessarily people you knew.

WS: Right. So they all spoke Japanese, we didn't speak any Japanese.

BN: Was there conflict, or did they give you a hard time?

WS: Oh, they gave us a hard time, because we weren't part of the group. We were able to move out to Block 29. My mother got a job in the hospital, so we had to move.

BN: How did she...

WS: That job? I don't know.

BN: No, I mean, how was she able to move to Block 29?

WS: I don't know, because she got the job, and the people who worked in the hospital, they lived in those two blocks, 29, 30, 28.

BN: I see. So Block 29, you were now surrounded by other workers, hospital workers.

WS: Right, doctors and so on.

BN: So probably a little more congenial than the Terminal Island group for you.

WS: Right.

BN: And you're, I think you had mentioned you just started junior high school that fall, so you were junior high school age.

WS: Right.

BN: I'm always interested in particular, for some reason, in the bathrooms and the mess halls. Can you tell me what you remember about the bathroom or latrine area?

WS: Oh, when we first got there, the bathrooms were, they weren't separated into stalls, they were just toilets in a line, both sides of a wall. And that's about it, the shower, open shower, we weren't used to that kind of thing.

BN: Did they put in partitions later?

WS: They did, yeah.

BN: Were the Japanese Americans the ones who put them up, or did the administration put those in?

WS: I don't know how they got them.

BN: But they did eventually add those?

WS: Yeah.

BN: What about the mess halls? Do you remember much about the food also?

WS: Well, the food wasn't so great, but it was food. And the people would line up and the kids would eat together, the parents with their friends, so it was kind of different. Wasn't a family thing anymore, it was just you eat with your friends.

BN: Did you feel like you got enough to eat?

WS: In a way. We had apple butter and stuff like that. And at first we had these tin plates, terrible thing to open out and eat out of those things. After a while they gave us regular.

BN: Were some of the mess halls better than others?

WS: It depended on the cooks.

BN: Yeah. Were you able to go to other mess halls?

WS: I think people were able to do that.

BN: Did you do that?

WS: Once in a while.

BN: Did you already have friends in Manzanar? Because you had moved to Boyle Heights, so were your friends from before now in other camps?

WS: Yeah, first we went with all Terminal Island people, Block 9 and 10 and 11, I guess. But they spoke all Japanese.

BN: Right, it's not the part of Terminal Island you were from.

WS: Right, we had a hard time. We were able to move, my mother got a job in the hospital, so we were able to move up to Block 29.

BN: I think you had mentioned that someone who became a friend for life was living in your block also, right?

WS: Really?

BN: John...

WS: Kawahara?

BN: Miyauchi?

WS: Who?

BN: Miyauchi?

WS: Oh, yeah. He's an artist.

BN: Right, right. But was he in Block 9 or 29?

WS: He was 28, I think.

BN: Okay. So that was after you moved.

WS: Yeah.

BN: What did your father do? Because he took a job...

WS: Yeah, he got a cushy job. He was working for one of those companies that you could buy things from, represented them, so he got a car to drive around the camp and everything. He had a good job.

BN: And your mom, you mentioned, was at the hospital. What did she do?

WS: Clerk. She was an older woman. For her it was great, all the women got together, and they stayed together even after camp.

BN: With her, people she met at the hospital?

WS: Yeah.

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<Begin Segment 6>

BN: Now, when you first got to Manzanar, it was under the administration of the army, basically, and then switched over to the WRA later. Did you notice a difference over time? Was there a change in how strict things were or general conditions?

WS: No. More democratic, certainly, the movies and all that stuff.

BN: Whereas before...

WS: Yeah, we didn't know what was going to happen.

BN: Because during the assembly center period, the army period, were guards patrolling the camp at that point?

WS: I don't know about patrolling. Probably, at least on the outside.

BN: But you don't remember guards...

WS: Inside.

BN: Inside?

WS: Not too much. But they had lights, that's what's scary. At night, the lights would go all around.

BN: Was that just during the army period or was that even after the WRA took over?

WS: Probably in the army period, I'm not sure.

BN: So it ended at a certain point.

WS: Yeah. At one point, the searchlights were on at night.

BN: Now, I'm wondering, given the politics at Manzanar, your dad's kind of a younger Issei, English-speaking, and he has a good job. Was he -- I know you were a kid, you may not know this -- but was he ever kind of suspected as being too much of a collaborator? Because that was an issue at Manzanar.

WS: Yes, because he was supportive of the JACL people. So we were kind of in a mixed group. He was an Issei, but he was a young Issei, so his friends were still...

BN: But did that get him into any trouble with, kind of, the other factions that opposed JACL that you know of?

WS: Well, we kind of stayed all aloof, we didn't want to get involved with the things that were going on. Just wanted to get out of camp.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

BN: Now, you have some memories, actually of the riot/uprising that took place in December, right?

WS: Yeah.

BN: What do you remember about that?

WS: Well, they were after those JACL people, I think. Beating them up or something, hiding in the hospital, we lived in the hospital block, and they had a jail right at the entrance to the camp, that's where all the demonstrations were taking place, and the guards and everything. That's when they started shooting, that's when people got hit. It was cold, so when we left that area, just before they started shooting, we can hear the shots after about a block away. Well, luckily, we left a little early.

BN: So were you kind of part of... did you see the group kind of going after people?

WS: Yeah, they were after the JACL people.

BN: But, I mean, you saw it? You actually saw the...

WS: People, yeah. The groups, they were going looking for them. Because we lived in that hospital block, 28 and 29. That's where some of them lived, I think Fred Tayama lived in 28.

BN: Were you scared or excited or kind of a combination?

WS: I didn't know what was going to happen. It was a crazy time. People were upset.

BN: Now, I wanted to go back, I think when you were in Block... when you first got there in Block 9, who did you, I mean, it was your family, but was it, did you live with other people as well?

WS: The Morizawas were our great uncle and aunt, and she had a sister. So when we got there, we lived with, in that Block 9, and then we were able to move to Block 29.

BN: But you weren't in the same room, you were in the same block?

WS: Same block.

BN: Now, after the riot, the uprising, there was the "loyalty questionnaire" episode. You're a teenager, but are you aware that that was going on, and what was going on within your family?

WS: Sure, because I had an uncle who was raised in Japan, and the mother took off with a couple of kids and went to Japan. I think came back in, like, '39, and worked for the older brother, but he wanted to go back to Japan. So he was one of those who demonstrated for Japan.

BN: Is this on your mother's side?

WS: Mother's side, yeah.

BN: So it's her brother?

WS: Right.

BN: Did he eventually go to Tule Lake?

WS: Yeah, he did.

BN: And then what about within your family? Was there any discussion or question of what they were going to do?

WS: No, because they were all Americans. No matter what, she would be American, she would do anything the government would tell her.

BN: So no drama with your family, with your immediate family.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

BN: Now, when you got there, it was like spring, the summer, and then you started school then in fall, right?

WS: Right.

BN: And this is middle school or junior high school. What do you remember about the schooling there?

WS: When we got there, we were in the middle of, did we go about April? So one of the gals put together a little class, so we met, that was our seventh grade, I think. So we had a little bit of class for seventh grade, just a few of us. And then September we started classes, different classes. We didn't have any books, didn't have enough chairs and tables and stuff. It was okay.

BN: Were the teachers that you had, were they Caucasian or were some also Nisei?

WS: I think they were mixed. But they were empathetic, that's why they were there.

BN: Did you feel like you were getting as good an education as on the outside?

WS: No, probably not.

BN: Is there a particular favorite teacher that you remember?

WS: I think some of the people were, picked on some of those white teachers, which was not good.

BN: Some of the teachers?

WS: No, students.

BN: Oh, I see, picked on the...

WS: White teachers. They were there because they wanted to be.

BN: What about other kind of activities? Boy Scouts, sports, dances, movies?

WS: Well, the people in each block had their own thing. And we were up by the hospital, so 29 and 30, 28. We built our own basketball court, and people would play sports.

BN: Were you someone that enjoyed playing sports?

WS: Well, the kids had a pretty good time, I mean, they could do anything they want. We played a lot of Monopoly and a lot of sports. Kids were unsupervised.

BN: Were you old enough to go to the dances?

WS: Yeah. Not really, but high school.

BN: So you did go to some of the dances at Manzanar?

WS: Yeah, I was in ninth grade, I don't know what... seventh grade, I don't know what class I was in. That's when we learned how to dance and everything.

BN: And then your brother also was a year and a half or two years older. Was he involved in any of those things?

WS: Yeah, he's a bright kid, very smart, learned how to play saxophone by himself. And he joined this band, so they had this, what do they call it? They had the band in Manzanar, and he played in that band for the dances and stuff, it was good.

BN: That he picked up on his own?

WS: Yeah.

BN: This is, you're talking about the Jive Bombers?

WS: Jive Bombers, yeah. Yeah, he didn't know how to play, just teach himself.

BN: Another thing I wanted to ask you about is your block was also near the Children's Village, right?

WS: Right, next door.

BN: Do you have memories of the Children's Village and did you actually interact with any of the orphans?

WS: Yeah, if anything, we did interact with them a little bit, because they had no place else to go. So we got to know some of them, which was good.

BN: Did some of the kids give them a hard time, or were they kind of accepted as...

WS: Well, some of them got a hard time, because some of the kids the orphanage were mixed, so they were given a hard time.

BN: Was there... this is a little off subject, what was the term that was used at that time for someone who was of mixed race ancestry? Someone was asking me this.

WS: I don't know. Mixed race?

BN: Just "mixed race"?

WS: Those were the people who were in the orphanage.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

BN: Now, as the war goes on, was there discussion amongst, that you remember with your parents about leaving camp?

WS: Yeah, we wanted to leave. And my uncle Jimmy had been living in Japan with his brother and mother, he wanted to go back to Japan, so he did go back to Japan. And we wanted to get out of camp, so we were able to go to Des Moines, I guess. And we got our car out of storage and we drove to Salt Lake and then Denver, and we lived in Des Moines.

BN: Yeah, so somehow you were able to get the car back.

WS: Yeah.

BN: Do you know what, I mean, usually, to be able to leave, you had to have, like a job. Did your father or mother have a job already lined up?

WS: I don't know how they... they had a, what do you call it in Des Moines, a place where we can go, what do you call that place?

BN: Oh, the hostels?

WS: Hostels, yeah.

BN: Yeah, I definitely want to ask you about that. So you don't know if they had a job already lined up?

WS: Well, they would line up jobs for people.

BN: Yeah, once they were in the hostel. And then before we go there, you also had another passenger in your car with you, right, when you left? Can you tell us a little about that?

WS: Yeah, it was a teacher there. And we got to know him real well, what was his name anyway? I can't remember his name.

BN: Louis Frizzell.

WS: Yeah, Louis Frizzell.

BN: And did you know him from before?

WS: Just from camp. He was a teacher, and he wanted to be in that Oklahoma!, I guess. He rode out there with us.

BN: Yeah, because he was, wanted to be an actor, performer.

WS: Yeah, performer.

BN: Did you have him as a teacher?

WS: Pardon?

BN: Did you have him as a teacher?

WS: I don't remember.

BN: Okay, he just rode with you.

WS: Yeah.

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<Begin Segment 10>

BN: So you end up in Des Moines, and you mentioned you lived in the hostel. What do you remember about the hostel? The living conditions, where you were, what sort of room you were in, that kind of thing?

WS: Well, it was kind of nice, because, first of all, they're all Japanese Americans there. And got to know people and learned the food.

BN: I'm sorry, learned...

WS: Learned about new food. That was kind of nice.

BN: Were you in, were you and your parents all together in one room?

WS: Yeah. I don't remember, but we were in the hostel for a while, then we got an apartment.

BN: So from the hostel you moved out to an apartment?

WS: Yeah.

BN: And then the hostel, this was run by the American Friends, right?

WS: Yeah.

BN: Were there other kinds of activities or... because you had mentioned help with getting jobs and so forth?

WS: Yeah, I helped to get furniture and stuff for people.

BN: For when they moved to their own place?

WS: Yeah. So they were very nice people.

BN: Was there much interaction with the local community in Des Moines?

WS: Not that I know of, no.

BN: Do you remember the, I think the Wilburs, do you remember them?

WS: Who?

BN: The Wilburs, Ross Wilbur and Lily? They were kind of the managers of the hostel.

WS: Oh, Wilbur, name was Wilbur.

BN: Yeah.

WS: Ross Wilbur.

BN: Yeah, do you remember them?

WS: Oh, yeah.

BN: What do you remember about...

WS: Oh, they were very nice and they helped people find furniture and stuff like that, find jobs, they were good people.

BN: Do you remember about how long you were there?

WS: Hmm?

BN: Do you remember about how long you were at the hostel?

WS: Hostel? Not too long, but everybody would go back on the weekends and so forth and meet new people and have dinner together and everything, it was nice.

BN: Even after you'd moved out, you'd kind of socialize?

WS: Right.

BN: How nice. Now, you now are continuing your schooling, so you were going to school in Des Moines also. What do you remember about that, or can you tell us about that?

WS: Oh, it was okay. We had one friend, I think, that's about it. I don't know. How long were we there anyway?

BN: Were there other Nisei kids that you went to school with, or were you the only one?

WS: No, I was there, but what's her name? What's her name? Hohri. Hohri, his wife went to the same school. I don't know her too well, she was in the same school.

BN: Is this William Hohri?

WS: Hmm?

BN: William Hohri?

WS: Yeah.

BN: His wife?

WS: His wife.

BN: Was also at your...

WS: North High School.

BN: In Des Moines?

WS: Yeah.

BN: They weren't married at the time?

WS: No. And then she moved to Chicago, I guess.

BN: How about the other kids? Did they treat you okay?

WS: Yeah, okay, it was, we didn't really make a lot of friends or anything, no. I had one friend, that's about it. We weren't really integrated, in a sense.

BN: So what kind of work did your parents do while you were in Iowa?

WS: I don't know.

BN: Yeah, 'cause you weren't there that long.

WS: No. Any kind of work, any kind of job they could get, I guess.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

BN: And then from Iowa, then...

WS: We came back to California.

BN: And was this, when you came back, because you left for Iowa in the middle of '44. So was the war still on when you came back to California, or do you remember, was the war over by then?

WS: The war was over, but I don't know. When did we come back? I think the war was over.

BN: But it was still, I mean, it was... did you come back in 1945?

WS: I think so, yeah.

BN: But maybe after the war had ended?

WS: Yeah.

BN: And back to Los Angeles?

WS: Right. They had still segregated schools.

BN: Did you have, now, you couldn't go back to where you had lived before on Terminal Island?

WS: No.

BN: So where did you...

WS: Went back to West Jefferson area. And they had segregated schools in those days.

BN: Do you remember where you lived, exactly?

WS: Yeah, 4th Avenue and 29th Place.

BN: This was, was it a house?

WS: A house, small little house.

BN: And this is just the three of you at this point, right?

WS: What?

BN: Is this the three of you, or is your brother also with you?

WS: It was back and forth, he joined the army and all that kind of stuff, so he wasn't around too much. Small house, I think we bought a small house for them.

BN: Do you know how they were able to afford to buy a house?

WS: No. Small, beat up little house.

BN: And by this time you were in high school, right? So which high school did you go to?

WS: What was the name of that school? I don't know. Straight down the street to west... what was the name of the school?

BN: It's not Dorsey?

WS: Dorsey?

BN: Is it Dorsey or L.A. High?

WS: Must have been Dorsey, yeah. Dorsey. Eleventh grade, Dorsey, and I graduated from Dorsey High. Went to UCLA.

BN: What did you want to study, or did you know, when you went and started at UCLA?

WS: Sociology. It's all I knew.

BN: And then what did your parents do when they came back to L.A.?

WS: My father was gardening, my mother worked cleaning houses, I guess.

BN: Did you have to help your dad with the gardening route as many kids did?

WS: A little bit. A little bit, and then I got my own route.

BN: Your own gardening route?

WS: Yeah. Bought a lawnmower.

BN: In what area?

WS: I don't remember. Probably all in the same area.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

BN: So you started UCLA. Can you tell us a little bit about what that felt like, going to UCLA?

WS: It was great, all Japanese, a lot of Japanese students. Take the bus, I had to take two buses to get there.

BN: You still lived in the same area?

WS: Yeah, 4th Avenue and 29th.

BN: So that's a long way.

WS: Yeah. I had to get up to Crenshaw, and Crenshaw to Pico or someplace, take another bus to UCLA.

BN: And were you still doing the gardening at that time to help pay for this?

WS: Yeah.

BN: So that's tough, hard work in addition to the studies, huh?

WS: Not really.

BN: Now, I know you were involved in the Nisei Bruins. Was that something that existed, or were you one of the people that started that?

WS: I think I was one of the persons that started it.

BN: And what kinds of activities did you do?

WS: Oh, they wanted to do dances and stuff, social things.

BN: Were there a lot of Nisei there?

WS: Yeah, starting to.

BN: So mostly, so not so much political, but kind of more social activities?

WS: Yeah, social.

BN: And then can you tell us about CINO, also, which I believe you also were one of the founders of, right? Now, what does that stand for?

WS: California Intercollegiate Nisei Organization. We were trying to organize them so that we could have socials and meet people all over the state.

BN: So do you know how many colleges were involved in, were connected to that?

WS: Not too many. It was good. But at Manzanar, they would come to Manzanar.

BN: You went to Manzanar?

WS: Yes.

BN: While you were at UCLA?

WS: Yeah.

BN: Really? Was this like a large group that went out?

WS: They had that every year, they had that Manzanar pilgrimage.

BN: Oh, yeah, but this is years later.

WS: Yeah, right.

BN: So this is not during the time, during the '50s.

WS: It started in about the '80s.

BN: Yeah, yeah, we'll definitely get to that. There were also conventions and so forth that CINO put on. Do you remember much about those? I was reading one where you did a Negro History Week program and so forth.

WS: Yeah, I was kind of a radical person. [Laughs] Pushing things like that.

BN: But did you have a, kind of a consciousness about racism and so forth?

WS: I did, yeah.

BN: Where do you think that came from?

WS: It came from the radicals at UCLA.

BN: So you got politicized at UCLA?

WS: Yeah.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

BN: And were you at UCLA too when you started with the Nisei for Wallace? Because that was about the same time, right?

WS: Yeah.

BN: How did that come about?

WS: Well, I just saw that they were meeting and I joined 'em, I guess.

BN: What appealed to you about -- this is, now, Henry Wallace we're talking about. What appealed to you and the other Nisei?

WS: Gee, what was the issues at the time? I don't remember the big issues. I don't remember. I was involved with that... what's her name? Sue Embrey, involved in that?

BN: Yeah. Did you know Sue at that time?

WS: Yeah, Sue Embrey, Sak Ishihara and that group, right?

BN: Yeah, the first mention I saw of Nisei Progressives, which came out of Nisei for Wallace, right, do you remember how that happened? Because that was not just L.A., right? That was sort of national.

WS: Yeah, New York, Chicago, San Francisco.

BN: How did that come about? How did you get to know these people in these other cities?

WS: I don't know. I think the people like Sak were organizing them. I think... what year is this?

BN: Because Wallace was '48, right?

WS: '48.

BN: Which... I'm not sure now. I mean, the first mention I saw of Nisei Progressives was 1949. I found, there was an article that you and Fumi Ishihara were putting on a bebop party to benefit the Nisei Progressives.

WS: Sak was, he was a Communist Party.

BN: This is Sak Ishihara?

WS: Yeah.

BN: I don't know him.

WS: So we would meet at their house. So a lot of those young Niseis, intellectuals, they were nice. I don't know how it broke up, but when it was going on, there was a lot of young intellectuals. There was a lot of different groups, progressive Niseis.

BN: And then you were continuing to go to UCLA throughout all this period, and then you graduated? And then what did you do after you completed UCLA?

WS: When did I graduate?

BN: You know, I don't know. Well, you started in '47.

WS: I graduated '47 from high school, right?

BN: Yeah.

WS: So, like, '51?

BN: Did you finish in four years?

WS: Yeah, I think so, barely. I was just happy to get out.

BN: And was your degree in sociology?

WS: Yeah. I think I went at night a little bit, it was a lot of fun at night. Meet a lot of older students, it was good.

BN: So, and then when you graduated, did you start working, or did you go right on to graduate school?

WS: Let's see. So what year are we talking about now?

BN: Well, if you graduated in about '51...

WS: Yeah, '51, what did I do? I don't know.

BN: When did you start law school?

WS: I started much later.

BN: That was later in life.

WS: About five years later? See, I finished UCLA and I worked in a factory, I was organizing in a factory. I think I organized a strike at the factory. I don't know what I was doing.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

BN: Well, let's maybe talk about JACL, because I know you got active in JACL about this time, or maybe a little bit later.

WS: All about the same time, right? I was trying to organize all kinds of stuff.

BN: Now, you were from Manzanar, there was this kind of anti-JACL sentiment and so forth, but you had a positive view of JACL at that time?

WS: Well, I know I enjoyed it, yeah. And... what's his name? What's the guy? He was the president at East L.A.

BN: Before you? Edison.

WS: Edison.

BN: Yeah, Edison Uno.

WS: And then I followed him. I joined about the same time, and when he was president, and I followed him as president.

BN: Do you remember what kinds of things that you were involved with with JACL?

WS: Civil rights, probably. I think during that time, we were trying to get JACL to become active in local politics, take issue and take a stand on issues. That's what we did.

BN: Did they, or was there resistance to that?

WS: Yeah, they didn't do that, so we tried to get them to do that, to take positions on local issues.

BN: Do you remember what some of the issues were at that time?

WS: No.

BN: I think also about during this time, there was a group of Issei organized to support Ed Roybal. Do you remember, can you talk a little bit about that?

WS: No. I stopped by, just joined that group.

BN: Because he was East L.A., right? So that was part of your, that was your area?

WS: All those things in the past. I'd do all those things, it was good.

BN: Now, somehow in here you also met and you got married, you met your wife. How did you meet your wife and what was her name?

WS: Rosie. Well, I knew her sister in Iowa. And then her sister told me to look her up when I came out here, and she was going to nursing school, and so I met her. So I know her sister real well from Iowa.

BN: Was she also going to school?

WS: She was going to County nursing school. I think it became a nursing... I don't know.

BN: Did she become, actually work as a nurse?

WS: Yeah, RN.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 15>

BN: Then what made you decide to go to law school?

WS: Let's see, I don't know. What year I did go to law school? I started at L.A., and it's terrible, it's so competitive, people holding back information that they have and so on, very competitive. I think I went a year or so, night school here, and then I sold my house and went to Denver, right? I had a friend from UCLA who went to, became a lawyer in Denver. And then my brother was there for a while, so I moved to Denver and went to Denver law school, which was really much more fun. Not as competitive and stuff like that, it was very nice. Yeah, it was good. I had a, I was active in L.A., right? And this Marian Takagi, her husband wanted to go to law school. So we were going to go to law school together, and he got sick and he ended up becoming a professor. And they moved up to Berkeley, I think.

BN: So after you finished in Denver, did you stay out in Denver?

WS: No.

BN: You came back?

WS: Came back.

BN: And then you took the bar in California?

WS: Right. I didn't know whether they'd allow me to...

BN: Was there, at that time, was there an issue being Japanese American and entering law?

WS: No. There was an anti-Communist thing going on. So I didn't know whether they would accept me. I had to go through a whole thing to become a lawyer. I think I went to some kind of hearing or something, I don't know.

BN: This is because of all the types of activity we're talking about.

WS: But they allowed me in. I know, ready or not, I got in.

BN: So you were able to practice?

WS: Yeah.

BN: So did you have a partnership?

WS: No, I joined a group in Gardena. I don't know.

BN: And what kinds of law did you --

WS: Just general stuff, yeah.

BN: In Gardena?

WS: Something like that.

BN: I'm sorry? Did you move to Gardena at that point?

WS: Yeah, I did. I moved to Torrance, I think.

BN: Torrance, at that time, was that not restricted, or could Japanese move there?

WS: I don't know. I bought a house on Thirty-fifth and Vermont. And then I moved, sold that house and bought a house in Torrance.

BN: Do you remember about what year? Because Torrance was pretty white at that time. While you were in your law practice, did you continue to be active in JACL and other organizations?

WS: I think so. This law practice, you've got to have rich clients, otherwise... I don't know. It's fun, law school was fun.

<End Segment 15> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 16>

BN: Did you, during this period, did you ever talk about your experience at Manzanar and the whole...

WS: I don't think so.

BN: Because you didn't want to, or because no one asked?

WS: I think no one asked, I don't know.

BN: I mean, did you tell your children?

WS: No. It's interesting, huh, because it was a bad time for American law, yeah.

BN: But then at some point things change, and people do start talking about it. I know you were involved at some point in Manzanar Committee also, right? Do you remember how that started?

WS: Involved in what?

BN: Manzanar Committee.

WS: Manzanar Committee... who was active in that?

BN: This was Sue Embrey's...

WS: Oh, Sue Embrey? I don't know... I don't know.

BN: Were you involved in the whole, the redress movement?

WS: Not really. NCRR was, I heard about them and I think I joined the group, that's about it.

BN: Did you join them while the redress movement was still going on?

WS: I think so.

BN: What did you like about them?

WS: Well, they're doing something.

BN: And at some point, you started going to Manzanar pilgrimages, right? And did you volunteer at the site also?

WS: I don't remember. I don't remember how I got involved. I don't know how I got involved in that.

BN: Do you think it's important for people to learn about Manzanar and the whole experience?

WS: Oh, yeah. Such a bad time in our history.

BN: What do you hope people take away, or young people especially learn about...

WS: I think they're just trying to learn about that, to pick people up and put them in a concentration camp for nothing? Yeah, it's something that we, people are just starting learn about it in a way.

BN: Do you see parallels with what's going on today?

WS: With what?

BN: You know, parallels with what is going on today with what went on in the days of Manzanar?

WS: With Trump?

BN: Or in general.

WS: Yeah, I think so. It's dangerous times.

BN: What do you think, as Japanese Americans, as someone who's lived through that experience, can we do in this time we're in?

WS: I think we should speak out once more, start telling about our history. Because people are just learning starting about it now. It's amazing.

BN: Okay, well, thank you very much. Thank you for sharing your story.

WS: Well, I don't know whether there's too much to share, but a lot has happened in California over the last few years. It's amazing how people don't know about it.

<End Segment 16> - Copyright © 2019 Densho. All Rights Reserved.