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BN: But then NCRR, kind of even after this all happened, I mean, it's playing a role in the appropriations process and all of that, but did you remain involved in NCRR through the shift and change of the name?

AN: I've always been involved in NCRR, but I had consciously decided after -- one, because it had taken a significant time commitment, so I was looking to do some other things. And also I always believed in this notion of coalition. And so one part of me said I didn't want to be involved in an organization that...

BN: You kind of evolved away from it.

AN: Yeah, and it was important to us. I still support NCRR, but I didn't want to be an activist and attending all those meetings. There were other things that I wanted to get involved in. And it just happened at that time that I became involved in the College Board, and that was fighting for... first it was a Japanese-language subject exam, and then this English exam for immigrants versus the TOEFL examination. And then it was during the time of changing the name from the Scholastic Aptitude, but there's a lot of things going on. But it was an interesting environment for me, and so I was part of the elected leadership. So I was elected to the regional head of the College Board group and then I was appointed on the trustees and then became vice chair of the trustees and overseeing their educational equity initiative. Because this is a three-quarter billion dollar a year corporation, so it was a different... governance took on a very different kind of environment. So like the CEO that we hired, he was a good guy, but he was making, at that time, ridiculous amounts of money. But he was making more money being on the boards of Campbell's Soup and whatever than he was getting... so it was different world, ball game. But I enjoyed the experience because I interacted with a variety of people. One of the people I did a lot of it was Steve Sample, who was the president of USC, and Peter Stanley, who was the president of Pomona College, because we would be taking flights back to go to meetings. And so I had a change to kind of interact with... and then Ramone Cortinez, who was district superintendent for L.A. Unified. So it gave me a chance to interact with a lot of people.

In fact, I was offered a job at the University of Virginia with the president there, and I said, "There's no way I'm going to go to Virginia for anything." So I enjoyed the interaction. And one of the real fun things was I had dinner one night with Martin Myerson, who was the acting president, chancellor at UC Berkeley during the Free Speech Movement. Because this is when... was Clark Kerr... anyway, someone resigned as chairman, I think it was Clark Kerr, and then Martin Myerson was the dean of the School of Architecture there, stepped in during the Free Speech Movement near the end. So it was fun talking to him about his perspectives on the Free Speech Movement and Mario Savio and all those other things going on. He thought Mario Savio was an opportunist ass. But it was just kind of interesting.

So I enjoyed those levels of interaction, and trying to move a more progressive agenda forward for the College Board and what we were trying to... democratize Advanced Placement and making it more available, etcetera. So I was trying to press a change agenda to use. Because at that time, whether we liked it or not, the SAT and Advanced Placement was a part of life, and so it was how to make it more accessible and something that we could do. So anyway, I spent probably like eight years of my life, but it was just too... it was almost as consuming as redress, so it just moved from one to another. Because I was going back...

BN: This was after, this would be in the '90s?

AN: Yes, this was in the late '80s and '90s.

BN: So even a little overlap.

AN: Yeah. But in the late '80s is when I was getting involved in regional, and then in the early '90s, then I was on the board of trustees and then executive committee. But the executive committee was meeting monthly, and so it was having... and it was just taking its toll. Initially it was fun to go back to New York, but then it was like there were times when I had to take the red-eye, get in at six o'clock in the morning in New York, rest up, go into a nine o'clock meeting all day, then having a dinner that night, then next morning, meeting, finishing the meeting at two, catching a four o'clock flight back. And then all the time on the flight over reading agenda materials and then having to deal with work stuff. The worst time was we had a new president of Long Beach who had a mandatory meeting for senior leadership on Friday, so I had to go to the executive committee meeting on Thursday, I had to fly back home for the meeting on Friday, then Friday afternoon I had to fly back to New York for a Saturday thing, so it was a crazy time. And then I started getting sick from all the travel, so then I just decided it was just too much. So I dropped my College Board stuff and became involved with LTSE more.

BN: With doing all of these things, especially things like redress which had a fairly high public profile, was there ever an issue with your day job, in terms of, was there ever conflict?

AN: I mean, there were issues, but I was very careful. I documented everything, and I was pretty good about... and plus, I kind of worked a lot, weekends. So there was never any issue about those things. And like the biggest thing, when the new president came in, I had spoken at a rally in Sacramento against the Bakke decision. And then the chair of one of the assembly subcommittees was this Republican from Chico called the chancellor and then the president complaining about me speaking there. And so the president, who was relatively new, called me in and said, "I got this report." So I didn't know him well, and he was a good guy. But I go, "I took a vacation day, I paid for it myself, I made clear in my statements which you can see, I said I'm not representing the university, I'm speaking as an individual, not even from my position. I'm speaking as an activist." And so I said, "I covered all these things." "Well, I told them I would call you in, but for what it's worth," he goes, "what you did is absolutely fine with me, and continue doing it." But I would always kind of cover myself with separating that in terms of when I did things that it was clear that it was not representing the university or those positions.

But I was blessed in that I always had people I worked with that had similar or accepted that view. But also, especially with President Matson, who was there the longest when I was working with him, he knew that I had connections with students and then I had the support of students. I was virtually untouchable near the end of my career. There's no way that anyone could get rid of me even if they wanted to, because it was just the connections I had built over the years with students, etcetera. Yeah, but it was always a balancing act. But also it affected my career. I could only go to places where they could accept me for how I am and who I am. I'm not a yes-man moving up the ladder kind of guy. The job at Long Beach I applied for was the only job I've ever applied for in my life, in terms of actually applying. Oh, and then the JACL thing. I was always, I've never been career-oriented, I've always been oriented to things that I believe in. And I told people, I'm just blessed that I was able to find a career where I was able to do that, and live a comfortable life. I feel very blessed in so many ways to have been able to do that. But I don't feel I've had to, quote, "compromise" any of those things. But then, also, I'm a fairly reasonable guy. I'm not like this crazy ideologue that's "my way or the highway." But I'd like to think of myself as someone who's driven by values and things like that. I've tried to remain true to that. That's very important to me, especially at this point in my life, that I want to feel that my life represents something beyond myself. Because I'm dealing with cancer, so it's kind of challenging for my life. That's kind of a legacy that I'm hoping... it's important to me. It's important how my family sees me, it's important how Yvonne sees me and how my children see me, but it's also important beyond that with friends that know me, that I'd like to think that I'm seen as a person of principle. It makes my life very fulfilling and meaningful. I'm sorry, I'm digressing.

BN: No, no.

<End Segment 18> - Copyright © 2018 Densho. All Rights Reserved.