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TI: Well, just to keep moving, because I want to get to when you became inspector general, but continuing the Department of Defense, so eventually you were the top audit person there also.

FS: Yep.

TI: And so talk about how long and the circumstances that got you to that position.

FS: Well, what happened was from that job in intelligence, my job was Director of Special Activity Audits. And in Washington, if you see that term "Special Activities," that's generally a cover for classified operations. So I was auditing all of those intelligence activities for the first time and I got to know some very high level people. And as an example, one of the guys that I met and got to know very well was Admiral Noel Gayler, who later became the PACOM commander. And an interesting thing is -- I'll come back to this, but he helped me a lot when I needed his help later on because he remembered some of the stuff that I did for him. So it all paid off in a way that was just unimaginable.

You know, I was going to mention to you, Tom, that if you believe in miracles, that's the career that I had. You know, Eric Saul talked about unmei when he was here, that's what I had. It's just incredible the breaks that I had, and things that happened in my life. So anyway, I was heading up these intelligence audits, and about a year and a half later, I was asked to head up the audits of all the Defense Agency audits. So I was auditing Defense Communications Agency, Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, Defense Supply Agency and all the major agencies. And then about a year later, I was given charge of all audit operations in the Department of Defense.

TI: And so how many people are working for you at this point? The Department of Defense is such a huge operation.

FS: Well, when I was heading up Audit Operations, I had maybe four hundred people. Not a huge organization, we were a small arm. Because most of the audits were in turn being done by an Army audit agency for the Army, Air Force audit that I had worked at, and Navy audit service and so forth, and Defense Contract Audit Agency. So I'm rocking along like that, and I was running audit operations and I was basically the number two person in charge. And meanwhile, Jake Gardiner had moved on, and a guy by the name of Joe Welch was my boss. So the day that President Nixon resigned, I forgot what date that was...

TI: Is it 1974?

FS: August of '74. That particular morning, the news was full of the press conference that was to take place and so forth. And I went into the office and my boss says, he buzzed me on the intercom and he said, "Frank, if you're not doing anything for lunch, I want you to join me for lunch." So I said, "Okay." We went to this little Chinese restaurant in Arlington, and we were having lunch and watching the news conference. And right smack in the middle of all this, he says, "Frank, I want you to know that the boss has asked me to take another job, and he wants you to take over." I said, "What?" There was a shuffle because one of our senior guys was retiring. So it's that day that I was asked to take over as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for audit. And you know, outside of Washington, people won't understand what that job is. But what it is is that's the top audit job in the whole DOD and probably a bigger audit job than any major CPA firm, Defense Contract Audit Agency, we audit all the companies like Boeing, Lockheed, GE and so forth. And really a big job. And I was just tickled to death to get it, and I probably should have been a little scared to take it because I was really a relative youngster.

TI: Now at that point, is that a presidential appointed office?

FS: No. When I took that job, I became a GS-18, which is the highest civil service rank at that time. So when you stop and think about it, starting out as a GS-9 to being a GS-18, it was pretty miraculous, and the kind of a job that people would almost kill to get, you know. But I was just lucky to be there at the right time, at the right place.

TI: And out of curiosity, were there any other Japanese Americans at that level, GS-18?

FS: No. I don't think there's been one since. I don't know of any. I knew of one GS-17, and that's the only one that I know of.

TI: So at this point, in 1974, you're the civil service, federal civil service, the highest ranking Japanese American.

FS: That's right.

TI: So let's continue the story, now you're the top audit guy at the Department of Defense, huge operation. You're right, it's bigger than any CPA firm or anything. What happens next? I mean, so you do this for a while, and out of curiosity, in your position as an auditor going through the Department of Defense, did people pressure you to, like, maybe look the other way or rule more favorably? Because I know you have, as an auditor, some discretion in terms of how you look at things. Was there a lot of that kind of pressure?

FS: You know, I never had it once. But I think they knew, and they knew my reputation, and they wouldn't touch that. Interesting thing -- and this is an aside and I'll come back to your point on all this. But interesting aside, when I was inspector general, I had a member of Congress call me up once and ask about a particular case, and I just simply said to him, "I don't think you want to ask that question." They got the message, and they just changed subjects right away. I would not let them or allow them to even...

TI: Cross that line?

FS: Cross that line. And they knew. I have to tell you, my reputation was such, by the time I got to that job, they knew they weren't gonna touch me. I feel very confident about that.

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