<Begin Segment 1>

TI: So today is Tuesday, January 19, 2016. We're in San Francisco, and we have an interview with Florence Dobashi. And so, Flo, I guess the first question is, can you tell me when and where you were born?

FD: In Los Angeles in October 1927.

TI: And what was the name given to you at birth?

FD: Hisako, H-I-S-A-K-O, Ohmura, O-H-M-U-R-A.

TI: Good. And let's start out by talking first about your father. Can you tell me your father's name?

FD: Masayoshi Ohumra, That's M-A-S-A-Y-O-S-H-I.

TI: And where in Japan did your father come from?

FD: He's from Kumamoto. That's in the southern island of Kyushu.

TI: And can you tell me or do you know what your father's family did?

FD: They were... he calls his father a farmer, however, he was a person who owned a couple of so-called mountains in Kumamoto. And on those mountains he owned farms. And of course he couldn't do all the farming himself, because it covered such a big territory. So he was... I forgot what they called it, I forgot the Japanese name. But anyhow, he was a... well, he was a farmer who had a lot of tenant farmers on his land. And instead of doing actual farming himself, he rode around the mountain on his horse overseeing the other farmers. And then he had three sons, and my father happened to be the youngest one. And in those days, only the eldest inherited the family's properties. And then the second son couldn't inherit anything, so he married into another family that wanted a male heir and took the other family's name. They call it going yoshi.

TI: So your father's older brother, the second son became a yoshi, and the oldest one...

FD: Became the owner of the properties. And then my father, being the youngest son, was advised to go to America and go to school and make his own way.

TI: So it sounds like your father's family was, it sounded like, quite wealthy.

FD: Yes, they were, and they still are.

TI: Okay. And so what were the hopes for your father? Because most... I've done hundreds of these interviews, and most of the men who came over came because there was no other opportunities for them in Japan. And they came over as pretty, I guess, for lack of better words, pretty poor. It sounds like your father actually had resources when he came.

FD: Yes, he did. And so he came and, well, he knew almost no English, so he decided to enroll in school. And in those days, a lot of Japanese immigrant men went to elementary school, to kindergarten and so on up through high school until some parents raised a big stink about these adult men being in the same class with their little children. But anyhow, he went to elementary school long enough to learn enough English, and then he went into business... oh, and then he enrolled at the University of Southern California, that is USC, and went there for a while. Well, whatever the reason, he got sick, and so he dropped out of school. And when he recovered, instead of going back to school, he decided to go into business.

TI: Okay, before we go there then, about how old was he when he first came to America?

FD: He was eighteen.

TI: And do you know about what year that was?

FD: He was born in 1888.

TI: Okay, so he would have been about 1906?

FD: Oh, he said he came to San Francisco, I think it was just after the earthquake.

TI: Okay, that's about the right time then.

FD: 1907.

TI: I thought it was 1905.

FD: Oh, was it? Well, whatever.

TI: Yeah, I may have my... it's right around then.

FD: Well, I don't remember, but anyhow...

TI: And then from San Francisco he made his way down to Southern California, or did he live in the Bay Area for a while?

FD: I think... I'm not sure. He lived in the Bay Area for a while because I have photos, group photos of him in front of buildings in San Francisco.

TI: Okay. Now, did he know people, did the family have, like, family friends or relatives in America for him to live with?

FD: I don't know, I just don't know.

TI: So it sounds like he was pretty much on his own.

FD: I think so. Well, and then the family had resources, so he wasn't like a lot of the others who had to eke out a living somehow.

TI: So he had, I guess, the luxury of being able to go to school then, and not do other things.

FD: Yes. And then to go to the University of Southern California is not so cheap. His family took care of his finances for him.

TI: And he came over when he was eighteen, so he probably had pretty good schooling up 'til then.

FD: Yes, he finished high school in Japan. And I don't know how universal education was in those days, but anyhow, because of his family's position and resources, he was able to go to school until his late teens.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: And then you said, you were talking, so he got sick, and then after USC he got sick, and then decided to go into business, you said?

FD: Yes.

TI: So pick up the story there, what happened?

FD: Oh, he decided that he would publish a little magazine that translated English articles into Japanese, so he did that for a few years.

TI: So he was fluent enough in English that he could read these articles and translate them into Japanese. And then, I guess, his audience would be the other Japanese, just...

FD: Yes, the immigrants.

TI: So an early publisher, I guess.

FD: Yes. But he said it was just a small magazine.

TI: And this was in Southern California, Los Angeles?

FD: Yes.

TI: And then what did he do?

FD: Well, and then about 1920, he went to Japan for the first time since he had come over here, and he went to a Sunday school. Oh, he was involved in religion somehow, the Christian religion, because he went to Tokyo to attend a Sunday school convention, and that was about 1920. And then while he was in Japan he decided to go from Tokyo down to Kyushu to visit his relatives there. And things happened, and, well, he stayed there for about... let's see, I think it was three or four months. I'm so old that I've forgotten a lot of little details, but I've written it all down.

TI: Well, and I've read some of your writing, so during this time period, one of the things that you wrote was that it sounded like he met a woman during this time?

FD: Yes. Wait a minute... well, I wrote a story about his visit to Japan where he met a woman, and they apparently had an affair.

TI: Right, and unbeknownst to him, had a son.

FD: Yeah. But then he never knew that he had a son until years later when the son was already grown. And so I think I wrote the story.

TI: You did, yeah, and I read that, it was a really touching story about how this woman, in the story her name was Sumi, never contacted him.

FD: Yes, for some strange reason. And I thought it was because of what they called enryo, that is polite self-restraint, she didn't want to bother him with this news, good or bad.

TI: But eventually she remarried, had other children, and at that point contacted when, you're right, their son had grown up. Just, I guess just to let him know in some ways, but with no expectation, I think, but just to let him know that he had a son.

FD: Uh-huh, I think so. I've forgotten the details. Anyway, I wrote about it.

TI: Yeah, that was a really touching story of how your father felt, in some ways, when he found out, guilty and sad, but recognized it was too late, because by then he had already married someone else, your mother, and started a family, and essentially expressed his regrets. It was a beautiful story.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: So going back to your father, so he had this small magazine. He was in Japan, he spent a few months there. And then when he returned, what did he do?

FD: Oh, well, he intended to continue with his magazine. However, he fell prey of, what do you call... anyway, he was asked for a big loan from a friend of his. I say against his better judgment, he agreed to cosign a note from the bank. And, well, as you might expect, his friend, who asked him to cosign, reneged on the loan, and so my father had to make good on it. And in order to do so he had to sell his business. And it was then that he decided that, working for, well, he said something like he decided that it wasn't worthwhile working for maman, that is, for money, that he decided that he would work instead for the good of people's souls. And so he went to work for a church in Los Angeles.

TI: Okay, that was the Japanese Union Church?

FD: Well, it wasn't then. At that time it was, I forgot which one it was, but the Union Church is a, what do you call that? Well, it's a union of three separate churches, small churches that got together and formed what they called the Japanese Union Church. And then they built that structure in Los Angeles, it's still standing.

TI: That's the one in Little Tokyo?

FD: In Little Tokyo, the one on San Pedro Street, just north of First.

TI: Yeah, no, I've walked by there many, many times.

FD: And according to what I've heard, he was in charge of organizing the construction of that building, because he was their so-called secretary, but today they would have called him an administrator, I think.

TI: Well, it sounds like he was probably really helpful in terms of the fundraising.

FD: Oh, yes, he did a lot of fundraising.

TI: Because of probably his business background, his connections. All those things probably helped him, or helped the church.

FD: Yes, uh-huh.

TI: So he's an administrator, not a clergyperson.

FD: No, not at that time.

TI: But yet that was his, sort of his hope to go into the clergy?

FD: Well, after, while he was the administrator, they had difficulty locating somebody, a minister to stay permanently. They had various ministers who stayed for only a year or two, and that sometimes there were gaps, and they didn't have a minister. And so my father had to give the sermons and act as a so-called lay minister, or lay pastor they called it. And so after that experience, he thought, well, why be a lay pastor, why not become a real one? And so when they finally found somebody who promised to stay indefinitely, then he felt free to leave and go to the Pacific School of Religion at Berkeley and learn to become a real minister.

TI: Now I'm curious, when he was a lay minister, were all his sermons in Japanese or did he also do English?

FD: He did English, too.

TI: Okay, so he was able to do both, which was pretty impressive for an Issei to be able to be able to do English and Japanese sermons. And so about when did your father meet your mother?

FD: It was about... well, while he was at the Union Church, my mother was attending the Bible Institute, which is now called Biola University. And the Japanese American students at the Bible Institute used to go to the Union Church to, on Sundays.

TI: Now when you say, when your father was at the Union Church, was this when he was a lay minister?

FD: Yes, when he was a lay minister.

TI: Okay.

FD: So that's how they met, when my mother started going to the Union Church.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: And tell me your mother's name.

FD: Harumi Okafuji.

TI: And where was she from?

FD: She was from Kyushu... oh, dear. I'm getting so old that I can't remember anymore. The province that Hakata is part of, what's that called?

TI: Yeah, I don't know, but that's okay.

FD: But anyway, she was inland from Hakata.

TI: And then how did she go from there to the United States?

FD: Well, she was born in the United States.

TI: Yeah, that's right.

FD: And when her mother divorced her father and decided to marry another man, she was sent to Japan because her mother's second husband didn't want to raise another man's children. So my mother and a baby boy were sent to relatives in Japan. And then when she was eighteen, she decided that she wanted to come back and join her mother.

TI: In Japan?

FD: No, over here, because her mother was in the East Bay.

TI: Oh, I see, okay. So she was left in Japan to be...

FD: Well, she was sent to Japan when her mother divorced her father and married another man with whom she'd been having an affair.

TI: I see. And so how long did she live in Japan?

FD: Until she was eighteen.

TI: And then she returned.

FD: Yeah, from the age of six to about eighteen.

TI: Okay, so although she was born in the United States, she pretty much was raised Japanese in Japan until she was eighteen. So when she comes over to the United States at eighteen, she's essentially like an eighteen-year-old Issei.

FD: Uh-huh. And then she happened to have a sister who lived in the East Bay, so she stayed with her for a while and learned how to speak English through her sister who sent her to adult school and things like that, taught her how to cook and how to clean house, or keep house in an American manner, other things. And then after she learned enough English, she thought that -- that is, my mother's elder sister -- thought that she ought to go to college, learn some more so that she could catch a good husband. [Laughs] And a lot of Japanese American women, or rather Japanese immigrant women were going to the Bible Institute. So she sent my mother to L.A. to go to that school.

TI: And that's where she met your father?

FD: Well, and from there, of course, she went to Sunday services at the Union Church and met my father.

TI: Now, was it during that time they started dating, your father and mother?

FD: Well, yeah, I suppose so. Because they got married in January of 1927.

TI: Okay. You mentioned earlier your father was first a lay minister and then started getting training at Pacific. And that was in the Bay Area?

FD: It's in Berkeley.

TI: Berkeley.

FD: It's an old school that's still there, I think.

TI: Did your mother also return to the Bay Area during this time or did she stay down in Los Angeles?

FD: She stayed in Los Angeles.

TI: Okay. So then after your father finishes his training, what did he do next?

FD: He became a minister. He became ordained, and he was assigned to a little church in Chula Vista, which was a big contrast to the big church in Los Angeles.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: Okay, so this is where you joined the story. So you were born in Los Angeles, and then your mother and father and you moved to Chula Vista?

FD: Uh-huh.

TI: Now, did you have any siblings?

FD: Yes. I have a brother who's about, well, he's seventeen months younger.

TI: And what's your brother's name?

FD: John. John Masato.

TI: Was he born in Chula Vista?

FD: No, I think he was born in Los Angeles.

TI: Okay.

FD: And then after John, about two years later, they had another child, a daughter, and then two years after that, yet another daughter. So all told, he had four.

TI: Okay. And the names of your sisters?

FD: Let's see. Kayko, K-A-Y-K-O, Grace, her second name is Grace, Kayko Grace. And her present last name is Takata. And then my sister, youngest sister, was Ruth. And her last name was Nishita, but she died recently.

TI: Now going back to Chula Vista, do you have any memories of Chula Vista?

FD: Oh yes, I have a lot of memories of Chula Vista.

TI: And what was that like? Can you remember the...

FD: Well, it was sort of very pleasant. Well, that is, mostly pleasant. But on the other hand, I do have some not so good memories of Chula Vista because my father... well, it was during the Depression, that is, during the 1930s, and he was supposed to get a stipend from the headquarters of the Congregational Church. But because of economic conditions during those days, sometimes he didn't get his stipend. And so in order to make ends meet he had to go to, find some other kind of work. The only kind of work that he could find was a laborer on the farms of some of his parishioners, and that was very hard for him and my mother.

TI: When you say hard for him, was it hard...

FD: It was hard physically.

TI: ...physical labor?

FD: Yeah.

TI: So he wasn't used to that.

FD: No, he had never done physical labor in his life. Well, he was short and slight of build because he was thin. And, well, he just wasn't cut out for farm labor.

TI: I imagine it was hard, but then thinking of a minister, I imagine he used some of those hardships in his sermons over time.

FD: Yeah, probably. [Laughs]

TI: Okay. Yeah, I think earlier we were also talking that during that Chula Vista time, he was also assigned on an interim basis on a short term to San Diego?

FD: Yes, for a year.

TI: And do you recall anything about San Diego?

FD: Some, yes. For me it was a pleasant interlude. We lived in the house of the minister whose place he was taking. Well, at the time I thought, "This is strange. Here the church is paying the rent or owns this house, and so my father didn't have to worry anything about rent. And they provided money or whatever, but we didn't feel as if we were so poverty-stricken as we did in Chula Vista. I just sort of thought, well, I sort of questioned the Christian values of the people at Chula Vista, because they didn't provide a house for my father, he had to pay the rent and, well, other expenses. And I'm not sure about the details but I used to overhear my parents' discussions late at night worrying about this and that. And being so young, I don't remember the details, except that they were concerned about how to feed the family, and that he needed gasoline in order to visit his congregation and in order to go to church, and that was a big expense for him in those days.

TI: Now looking back, when you think of Chula Vista versus San Diego, was it partly because the San Diego congregation was much larger than Chula Vista?

FD: Possibly.

TI: That's what that happened, or what were the...

FD: Well, I don't know. I can only guess at it. Well, there were more people in San Diego, and then perhaps they were less poor. I don't think they were wealthy, but then they were less poor. They weren't farmers, at least I don't think so, because they lived in the city. Whereas in Chula Vista, the congregation consisted mainly of farmers.

TI: Well, and I was thinking your father's experience in Los Angeles where he raised enough money to build this really beautiful church.

FD: Yes.

TI: And so I'm thinking that it's a function of, kind of, I guess the wealth of the community that L.A. was much larger, much wealthier, Chula Vista is a small farming community, and then maybe San Diego is kind of in between the two possibly?

FD: Yes, I guess so.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: Yeah, so moving from Chula Vista, where did your father get assigned next?

FD: Oh, he was assigned to Riverside.

TI: Do you recall about how old you were when you moved to Riverside?

FD: I was in the sixth grade, so that would have made me about eleven, I think.

TI: And how was it for you? Because you developed these friendships in school, and then it seemed like every few years you have to move. How was that for you?

FD: Well, I managed somehow. It didn't bother me so much. That is, in grade school, I used to... I had a lot of friends because we had been in Chula Vista for more than just a couple years. And I used to be elected some sort of class office every year. Curiously never president, but then I was often vice president or secretary or treasurer or something like that.

TI: What was the student body like? How many, like, Japanese were your class?

FD: Oh, very few. I remember only one girl and maybe a couple boys whose names I don't remember.

TI: And was that the same in, like, San Diego?

FD: Well, I don't remember much about the San Diego school.

TI: And then going to Riverside?

FD: And then Riverside, well, I kept getting elected -- I don't know why, because I'm so shy most of the time, and yet I got chosen or elected to class offices in Riverside, too. And I was on the student council in eighth and ninth grade I think. And on speaking terms with the principal of the school. And when I think back, I think, oh my goodness, I wonder how I got acquainted with the principal. And then after we got sent to camp, he sent me my school diploma in his own handwriting, and I thought, "That was awfully nice of him."

TI: So this would be a diploma for middle school that he sent to you?

FD: Yes, they called it junior high school then.

TI: Junior high school. And going back to why you might have been on the student council, things like that, back then, what were your grades like?

FD: Oh, excellent.

TI: So pretty much the top of the class?

FD: Yes.

TI: So maybe that's why? You were probably viewed as, at least in the school environment because of your grades, as perhaps a leader?

FD: Yeah, according to when we were sent to camp, the teachers or somebody gave me my school records, and I was so pleased to read that they considered me a happy... I forgot the description, but anyway, they said that I was leader. And I thought, oh, I didn't know that. [Laughs]

TI: I mean, can you recall anything at Riverside besides student council and maybe your grades that people singled you out for? I mean, is there anything else that you can think of in terms of, you know, were you like, a particular subject really good at, or anything like that?

FD: No, I think I was good at all my subjects.

TI: Now during this time did you ever help your other classmates, try to help them with their homework or understand things?

FD: Yes, but not very much except in camp I met a girl who was very friendly and nice to me, and she needed help with her homework and studies, so I used to help her. But I don't remember doing that in junior high.

TI: So going back to Riverside, who were your playmates? Who did you hang around with and play with?

FD: There was a set of twins, the Mizumoto twins, M-I-Z-U-M-O-T-O, Mary and Martha. And they lived about, oh, two blocks away from our house. And so I used to play with them a lot.

TI: Now, were these identical twins?

FD: No, they weren't identical, fraternal, I think.

TI: Yeah, it seemed like twins were more rare back then. Seems like there are more twins now, but I don't hear of too many twins. And what kind of activities would you do with twins?

FD: I don't know, sit around talking all the time. [Laughs] And once in a while we'd go to movies, but then we were so poor that we sort of hesitated to ask our parents for the dime or whatever it cost to go to a movie.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: Well, so when your father went to Riverside, we talked about Chula Vista and San Diego, with Chula Vista barely scraping by, San Diego, because of the congregation, you had a house and a bigger stipend. What was Riverside like? Was it more like Chula Vista or more like San Diego.

FD: It was more like San Diego. It was very pleasant.

TI: So you had a house there.

FD: Well, we lived in a house that served as a church. It was a big house, and it was pleasant. It wasn't fancy, but it was roomy, and I had a room of my own for a change. And my brother had a room of his own, and then my little sister used to share a room with our mother.

TI: And when you say it also served as a church, it must have had a large, like one large room in there, like a large dining room?

FD: A large living room.

TI: Living room.

FD: And then a lot of the old rooms had, the old houses had a second of the living room that they called a parlor, as that was sort of raised about so high. And, well, it was like a platform. I've seen houses like that in San Francisco, too, those old houses. And anyway, that platform serves as a platform for the church, and then the congregation sat in chairs that were in the, in the living room, per se.

TI: And do you recall like about how many people attended services during this time?

FD: Well, no, I don't recall. But I would guess maybe in a neighborhood of, oh, between twenty to thirty perhaps, and sometimes more.

TI: Now, to get ready for, like, a Sunday service, did you or your siblings have to do anything to help prepare, or was this your father and mother who did everything?

FD: Oh, my father did, except that they maybe take... not maybe, but they let me take piano lessons from the time that I was about eight years old. And I really enjoyed playing the piano until I found out that my father expected me to play piano for the church services. [Laughs] So that's one of the chores that I really dislike. If he told me in advance which songs were going to be sung at a service, then I could practice in advance and at least get acquainted with the melody so that I could play it. But then sometimes they'd say, well, the congregation gets to choose whatever they want to sing. And so they would pick things out of the blue. And, of course they picked tunes that I had never heard before, so I had no inkling of what they were supposed to sound like and I had to read the music as I went along. Well, sometimes it was a real struggle and I felt sorry for the congregation because I thought, "How can they sing along when I'm struggling with the piano?"

TI: So it'd be just from the hymn book or something, they would just choose one and then you'd just have to open to that page, sit there and just start playing.

FD: Yeah.

TI: Wow, so you were good enough to be able to at least do that.

FD: Yeah, that is after a couple of years I was able to do that.

TI: I guess that's one way of learning how to perform on demand, just do that. How about other, like, Japanese community events and things in Riverside? Do you recall anything like picnics or other types of things like that?

FD: Well, I suppose my father used to conduct Japanese school in the church, both in Chula Vista and in Riverside. And he mentioned one day that that was... so people usually wanted their children to learn to speak Japanese so they could speak it at home. And outside, if the children came to the church, then maybe the parents would come, too. So that was sort of a ploy to get more people to come to church.

TI: now, when he would do that, were there competing, then, Japanese language schools for the Buddhists?

FD: Probably, but I wasn't really aware of it.

TI: Okay. And when your father did his services, Sunday services, did he do it in Japanese or English?

FD: He did both.

TI: And so you had to play piano for both services?

FD: Uh-huh, yeah.

TI: And do you recall which one was larger, the Japanese or the English services?

FD: I don't remember.

TI: And do you remember, like, which one came first, which one came second or anything like that?

FD: I think the Japanese came first.

TI: And I'm thinking, so the English would be, would that be more of a Nisei audience?

FD: Uh-huh.

TI: Okay, so younger, kind of closer, maybe a little bit older than you.

FD: And then in addition to the Sunday services, they had bible class I think on Wednesdays, and then on Fridays they had choir practice. And it seemed to me like I was going to church almost every day.

TI: Because for choir I'm guessing you were the piano player for that.

FD: Yes.

TI: And bible study on Wednesday and the services on Sunday. And then if there were things like weddings and funeral services, were those also conducted at the house?

FD: Uh-huh.

TI: Okay, so you had things like that. And so was your father, it seemed like he was a pretty busy man then.

FD: I suppose so.

TI: And how, what did your mother do during all this time? Did she do any other work or did she just support her father?

FD: She just supported my father, and I think she taught a Sunday school class. Then they would serve refreshments, and so she did a lot of work in the kitchen and she supervised the teenage girls who helped her.

TI: Now did your father, because of his English-speaking capabilities as well as his business background, did he ever advise other Japanese people about just maybe community affairs or business affairs?

FD: I don't know.

TI: Okay.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: Any other memories before the war, before we move to the war? Can you think of anything else that...

FD: Oh, lots of memories.

TI: What are some, like, highlights that come to mind?

FD: Highlights? Oh, we used to go to Los Angeles every summer to visit a certain family, and that was because, well, at the time, I was aware of it, but I learned later, when I was a little bit older, that it was because they had allowed an Issei couple to adopt one of my sisters. And it was, well, while my father was attending the seminary, my mother worked at the Japanese orphanage that was called the Shonien. So while she was working at the Shonien, well, she used to take me to work and leave me among the orphans so that the administration didn't know that she was taking her own child to be cared for by the other workers. But when my brother was born, she had two little kids and she couldn't hide both of them, so she asked the couple who had served us, the baishakunin, that is, the go-betweens for her marriage, to take care of me. And then after taking care of me for a couple of years, he wanted to adopt me, but then my parents said, "No, you can't have our firstborn child, heaven forbid that we should give her up." And then he said, "Well, maybe the next one if it's a girl," but then the next one happened to be a boy. "We're not going to let this boy be given away." And so they said, "Well, we'll see. Maybe we'll have a girl next time." And so the third one happened to be a girl, and that was Grace, and so they allowed this couple, the baishakunin, to adopt her. And then that made them happy, I guess.

TI: And they lived in Los Angeles?

FD: So the baishakunin lived in Los Angeles. So I figured that we were going to Los Angeles every year to visit the daughter that they had given away, and my siblings didn't know that she had been our real sister, they thought that she was a cousin. But I... when I was in the fourth grade, we learned about relationships within families and why some people were aunts and uncles and others were cousins and so on. So I asked my mother, "Why is it that Keiko is our cousin? Is it because her parents, one of her parents is your sibling or our father's sibling or what?" And she wouldn't answer me. And I kept pestering her about that from time to time, and finally she broke down and said, "Well, if you promise never to tell another soul, I'll explain it to you." So she told me that they had allowed Keiko to be adopted by this other family. So I never told anybody until, oh, way into middle age. And then...

TI: Now, did Keiko know this growing up, that she was adopted?

FD: No, she didn't know. And when we were older, I don't know how old but maybe in our thirties or forties, she remarked to me that, "Everybody seemed to know that I was adopted except me," and she was quite upset over that.

TI: I would imagine it would be sort of shocking to find out much later.

FD: Yeah. Oh, and then how she found out is that the Ochiais went to Japan in the spring of 1941, and they were planning to come back. They had reservations on a ship to come back in August, but then by that time, relations between the U.S. and Japan were getting grim. And it turned out that I think that their reservations were on the last passenger ship to come to the United States. But anyhow, their place, their tickets or whatever, their place was taken over by people who were richer, I guess a lot of money changed hands to buy the passage back to the U.S. And they weren't able to come back. And so they spent the war years in Japan. And so my adopted sister, well, of course, went with her adoptive parents and then after the war, my mother's youngest brother, who's only six years older than me, was drafted into the army.

TI: This is the Japanese army or the U.S.

FD: No, U.S. Army.

TI: Okay, so he was in the United States, okay.

FD: And he went to the MIS school and learned Japanese, and he was sent to Tokyo. And so my parents asked him if he could arrange to get my sister and her adoptive parents back to the U.S., and so he managed to arrange for Keiko to come back, but he said that getting her... oh, and while they were in Japan, their adoptive father had died because he had diabetes and couldn't get insulin. But he said that because her adoptive mother was a Japanese alien, it was more difficult to get passage for her. So he said that he'll keep working on it, but he sent Keiko back to our family. Of course, she had to come to join our family because there was nobody else to go to. And at that time, she said that her mother told her that she was really an adopted child and not a natural child.

TI: And that she was going to go back to her natural...

FD: Yeah, she was going to back to her natural parents.

TI: And how old was she at this point?

FD: She was about fifteen, fifteen or sixteen. And so later on she complained to me that everybody seemed to know that she was adopted except herself.

TI: But at that point it was really your parents and maybe you and a few others? So it wasn't really that well-known?

FD: Well, I don't know. I don't know who knew. It sounded to me like maybe the Issei community knew.

TI: Yeah, that's what I was wondering, if they probably knew. Because the baishakunin was probably, maybe because of their position, was probably well-known, and they may have tried to get other children in the past.

FD: Yeah, maybe.

TI: That made sense. Wow, what a story. And so when she came, Keiko came back as about a fifteen year old after the war...

FD: She was bitter and angry and very difficult to deal with, according to my mother. And I was away at school, so I didn't get to witness her return.

TI: But then probably the one who maybe dealt with it most was your youngest sister Ruth?

FD: Yes.

TI: So she probably, 'cause she would have been younger than Keiko.

FD: Uh-huh. And then, well, she wasn't too happy about Keiko coming because Keiko thought that according to the Japanese customs, the elder child gets to boss the younger ones around. Well, Ruthie was the darling little baby of the family and she wasn't about to be bossed around by this interloper.

TI: Wow, so it really complicated the family situation. That's interesting. Tell me a little bit about your mother. What was she like? I'm curious, as all this was happening, just her personality, how did she handle these difficult issues?

FD: She was... well, how do you describe her? Well, she was very vivacious and talkative, good humored, but also short tempered, too. Well, she was nice, I guess, in her way.

TI: And how would you describe your father? What was his personality like?

FD: Oh, he was quiet and dignified, and he had a nice sense of humor, but never loud. Just calm, I used to think.

TI: Now, in his position, I'm wondering, yeah, I'm not quite sure how it is to be a minister. Did he have very many, like, close friends that would come over and he would just sort of hang out with and do things with?

FD: Well, I wasn't aware of it.

TI: I'm thinking that oftentimes, when I talk to other minister families, not necessarily isolated, but they aren't able to get really close to very many other people because they wanted, they're kind of spread out in terms of what they did.

FD: And then they don't want to play favorites either.

TI: Right.

FD: But there were some families that seemed to be closer than others. We used to exchange visits with certain families.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: Earlier you mentioned visiting Los Angeles. What was Los Angeles like for a young woman, a girl going from, because you kind of grew up in smaller communities where there weren't as many Japanese, and then you go to Los Angeles, and I'm guessing maybe like Little Tokyo, places like that, what was that like for you?

FD: I don't remember, but the family, the Ochiais who adopted my sister lived, they lived on 20th or 24th Street, which was south of Little Tokyo near Central Avenue.

TI: What would that neighborhood be called?

FD: I think it's called South Central or something. But then I'm not sure, because Central Avenue was pretty long, and I think as you go down to the higher avenues, it gets blacker. And I don't know what it's like today.

TI: But when you would go to Los Angeles, where would be some of the places you would go to as a family?

FD: It was usually to Little Tokyo, to the church there, and to do shopping for Japanese foodstuffs.

TI: And where would you go shopping?

FD: I don't remember the stores. And I do remember that there was one shop that we used to go to often that was a jewelry store run by the Iseri family. Some years ago when I happened to visit Los Angeles, I walked down East First Street to see if I could recognize any of it. And the store that used to be the jewelry store is something else. And then they had the names of the owner's predecessors inlaid, that is... anyway, inlaid on the sidewalk in front of each business establishment. And I was sort of surprised that they didn't mention the Iseri jewelry store because they had somebody else's name there. So I figured, well, I guess they didn't know that the Iseris owned that building years ago.

TI: That's interesting. You should mention it to someone.

FD: I didn't know who to mention it to. [Laughs]

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: Okay. So I'm now going to go to December 7, 1941, the date that Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. Can you walk through that day for me and what happened?

FD: Well, we had Sunday school and church services as usual in the morning, and then in the afternoon my parents went to Los Angeles to attend the wedding of a former Riverside girl. And I decided that I didn't want to go, so I stayed at home and the twins came over to keep me company. So we just, I don't know what we did, just talked or played games or something. And then in the afternoon, a boy drove up to the house and rushed in, because we used to keep our doors unlocked in those days, and so he just dashed into the house and said, "Lock all your doors and windows because some people are going around town threatening to kill all the Japanese that they can find." Well, what? What's going on? How come? And he said, "Oh, Japan bombed Pearl Harbor," and everybody's mad, we're going to war, blah, blah. And so that was Pearl Harbor Day. So the twins stayed with me all day, I guess. But then I was wondering, what did we do for dinner? I don't remember. I don't know whether we went over to the twins' house for dinner or what, but anyway, the twins were still at my house, our house, when my parents came home in the evening, late in the evening.

TI: And I'm curious, during that time period, during the day, when you were there with the twins, what were you thinking? I mean, did you lock all doors and windows?

FD: Oh, yeah, of course we locked all the doors. We were just sort of scared wondering will somebody try to break in, or what? But nothing happened.

TI: Probably maybe worried about your parents?

FD: Oh yeah, I worried about my parents.

TI: So when they came back, about what time did they come back?

FD: Well, it seemed to me that it was sort of late in the evening. I'm not sure what time it was, but I would guess it was probably around ten or so maybe.

TI: And do you remember what your parents said or anything when they came?

FD: No, I don't remember.

TI: Because they were there with your younger brother, younger sister also.

FD: Yeah, they had taken them to Los Angeles. And I think the twins were still with me, my father took them home saying something like... well, he usually took them home when they stayed over in the evenings, but he said, "This time especially it's important that I see you home safely."

TI: So the days after, so the next day when you go to school, what was that like for you?

FD: Oh, yes, I was worried. I didn't know what it was going to be like. Well, the principal called an assembly. We usually had assemblies, I think, on Fridays or something like that, but then he called an assembly on Monday and said something to the effect that the Japanese American students, in fact, all the Japanese Americans in the United States had nothing whatsoever to do with what happened at Pearl Harbor, and you should just treat them the same as usual, that is, don't do anything to harm them. Anyway, he said something to the effect that it was not our fault that Japan did this dastardly deed.

TI: Earlier you mentioned that you were on kind of speaking terms with the principal.

FD: Yeah.

TI: Did you ever have a personal conversation or did he ever say anything to you individually about anything after?

FD: I think so, but I don't really remember. Well, I used to see him occasionally because I was on the student council and the council members were the ones who were supposed to make the, I guess, announcements for the administration. Instead of having a teacher or the principal make the announcements to the school over the public address system, they had the council members take turns doing that. And so, of course, since I was in the officer periodically, I sort of got acquainted with the principal. He knew who I was.

TI: And do you recall the principal's name?

FD: I think it was something like Lauderbach.

TI: Yeah, it seems pretty extraordinary that he would make that announcement the day after, everyone's afraid, and that he would come out with such a strong statement, showed a lot of leadership on his part.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: How about your father? How did things start changing for him and the church?

FD: Well, shortly after Pearl Harbor... well, before that, the president of the Japanese Association, whatever they called themselves, asked my father to take care of the association's records, record books. And so he had them in the church, and then when Pearl Harbor occurred, the president said that it might be a good idea to get rid of, or to destroy the Japanese Association's records. Because if the authorities found the names of the members, that the members might get into trouble. So my father obediently proceeded to burn the records, and there was a great big trash can, a former oil barrel, I guess, in the backyard, and so this Mr. Okubo helped my father take the records downstairs and piled them next to the trash can. And then instead of staying to help my father, he went away. And I thought, "That's curious, why doesn't he stay and help my father?" But no, he went away. And later on I thought, oh, maybe he didn't want to be seen doing that, because it took a long time to burn all that stuff. It had gotten dark, and it wasn't until late in the evening when my father was almost through that Okubo came back to see how things were going. Meanwhile, he told us kids to stay in the house, to not come out to watch.

TI: So this is kind of interesting because I suppose from the authorities' standpoint, your dad was essentially destroying evidence, documents that... and based on what you said, these were documents that perhaps weren't that incriminating or dangerous.

FD: They were just innocuous, I'm sure.

TI: But for him to burn them, in some ways, perhaps made it worse than it really was if he ever were tried or anything, the fact that he burned these records rather than just made them available. Did you ever talk to your father about why he did this?

FD: No, of course not, that is, I wouldn't dare question his actions.

TI: So I'm going to do a little tangent here, because in your writings, your memoirs, you mentioned how many years later you went to the National Archives and got your father's file. Because later on he was picked up by the FBI, and they actually referenced, I think, burning these records. What did the records say? What did the files say?

FD: Well, I don't remember. I still have them at home, but I haven't looked at them for years.

TI: Yeah, I think what you mentioned was that actually possibly the person who asked him to burn them actually told the FBI that he burned them.

FD: Oh, yeah. The guy who asked him to burn the files, said or implied that my father did it on his own. Well, actually lied to the authorities.

TI: Why would someone do that?

FD: Well, to try to get better treatment for himself. That's why people inform on others, isn't it? To try to get better treatment for themselves?

TI: So it's really interesting how that all played out.

FD: And, of course, I was dismayed when I read the records and found out that Mr. Okubo of all people... and then there was another man, I don't remember his name right now, but anyhow, I was just appalled that they would lie like that.

TI: Because I mentioned, so weeks after that...

FD: Oh, yes, the other guy was Harada.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: But weeks after the burning incident, the FBI did come. Can you describe that, what happened on that day that the FBI came?

FD: I think I wrote about that in something. Well, my mother answered the door and she said that there were these four gigantic men towering over her, and of course she was intimidated just by their size. And they said they wanted to talk to her husband, and so she went upstairs to my father's study and had him come down. So they, I don't know what they said to him, but they wanted to search the house for, they said, "We're looking for contraband." So they went through the building and peering into closets and shelves and cupboards and stuff. I don't know what they were looking for, they said they were looking for incriminating evidence, whatever that might be. And then they went upstairs and went through all the bedrooms, and then they decided to concentration on my father's study. So they just... well, he had a lot of books, so they would pull the books out one by one and just toss 'em on the floor and leave 'em there because maybe he'd hide something behind the books, so I thought. And they pulled papers out of the files and just let them fall helter skelter. I thought they were awfully rude, and of course their words were polite, but then the things they did were awfully rude. Well, I don't exactly what was said, because most of the time we were told to get out of the way or stay away and be quiet. They had, I think it was four cardboard cartons that they expected to take stuff away in. And so they filled that up with papers and stuff. Just left the house in a general mess. Oh, and then, of course, they took my father with them.

TI: Besides the papers, do you recall that them taking anything else?

FD: Oh, they found his sword. He had a, when he left Japan, his parents had given him a sword that had belonged to his grandparents and great grandparents, they said it was a family heirloom and they wanted my father to take that to America as a memento of his background. And it was... I don't know how good a sword it was, but it was in an ornate case and it had gold filigree on it. So looking back, I think it must have been rather valuable. But anyhow, he used to take it out once in a while to clean it, and he said that it had, the blade had to be polished and kept clean in order to preserve its quality, so he did that only periodically, I don't know how often he did it, but most of the time he kept it in the back of a closet.

TI: Now, a sword that fine is usually an indication of higher class. So do you know anything in terms of what that sword kind of meant to your father, the family ancestry?

FD: I don't know. But since they owned all that property in Japan, it was pretty evident to me that they must have been wealthy. And in Japan, wealthy people usually had political power. And so I thought, well, I guess his family must have been important. And so one day I asked him about his family and he said, "They're erai." And erai in Japanese could mean brave or it could mean important. And I took it to mean that they were brave. [Laughs] And later my sister said, "No, you idiot, he meant that they were important people." [Laughs]

TI: So going back, so the FBI took those papers, the sword, and your father. And where did they take him?

FD: They took him to the city jail first, and they said that we could visit him there in the afternoon, which we did. And then from there they took him to a jail in San Bernardino. And then after, I don't remember offhand, but then they took him to this place in Tujunga.

TI: Tuna Canyon?

FD: Yeah, Tuna Canyon, whatever they called it. And he was there for a while, and so a friend of my family took us to visit him there.

TI: But going back to the Riverside jail, so you said later on that day you visited him. What was that like? Describe what that was like, going to the Riverside jail.

FD: Well, to me it was just all gray. I just remembered that everything seemed to be gray, and that when we went into the jail cell, I remember the clanking of the door. And whenever I see movies about people being in jail and I hear that jail door clank, it reminds me of my father being put into jail. And we talked to him through the bars, they didn't let him come out to visit him or anything, so we had to talk to him in the jail cell. And then I remembered that before we left, he reached out to each of us children and took our hands and said, "Be good and obey your mother," and, "I hope I'll be back soon," he said, or something like that.

TI: Did he say, did you recall anything about, to you directly because you were the oldest?

FD: No, I don't think so.

TI: Okay. And when you went to the Riverside jail, was it just the family, or did anyone else go?

FD: No, it was just the family, I think. Oh, no, we couldn't... it had to have been a family friend that took us there because my mother couldn't drive.

TI: And who was the family friend?

FD: It was a woman called Mrs. Beck, George Beck. No, actually, her name was Helen but her husband was George. Anyway, they were church workers, that is, they were volunteer church workers.

TI: Okay, so your mom called them.

FD: Uh-huh, called the Becks.

TI: And do you think she called them because they were white also?

FD: No, simply because they were close friends. But it helped that they were white, and it also helped that Mr. Beck was tall and husky, and so when he asked the policeman what's happening next to my father, I guess they gave him the answer because he just looked so authoritative. But if we had gone with a Japanese American friend, I don't know whether they would have shown the respect that they did to this big Caucasian man.

TI: Yeah, interesting. And then you also said you visited him at Tuna Canyon?

FD: Yes.

TI: Which was pretty far away, then.

FD: Yeah. So Mrs. Beck drove us there again.

TI: And what was that like? Can you describe what Tuna Canyon was like?

FD: Well, we weren't allowed to go into the building. We just, all the prisoners were in a yard outside the building, and so we spoke to them through the fence. And about all I remember about the surroundings is that the grass was green and lush and it just looked like a beautiful place to be except that he was confined.

TI: But you were separated by just like a chain link fence?

FD: Yeah, a tall chain link fence.

TI: And do you recall how your father's demeanor was or how he looked? Was there any difference than before that you could see?

FD: No, I don't remember.

TI: And how was your mother during this time period, to see her husband?

FD: Well, she was rather upset. She was excitable by nature, so I thought it was surprising that she was as calm as she seemed to be. And, well, I guess under the circumstances she performed as well as could be expected.

TI: Going back to Tuna Canyon where you talked with your father through the fence, before you got to the fence, did you have to check in with the authorities to even go up there.

FD: Probably. I don't remember the details like that.

TI: Okay, so I'm wondering if there was like an outer fence and an inner fence that you had to go through first to check.

FD: I don't know.

TI: And then after Tuna Canyon, where did your father go?

FD: Well, we didn't know. But later on, we found out that he had been sent to Missoula, Montana, of all places. And then there were... and then he was moved to a couple of other places, and he ended up, I think, in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

TI: And during this time, did you have any, did your mother have any correspondence with your father, like letters back and forth?

FD: I don't know.

TI: Yeah, it'd be interesting to see if that happened, because I think many of the men -- especially your dad because he knew English -- may have written letters to her.

FD: Well, I do remember seeing letters that had pieces cut out of them, and I figured, well, that must be the censor's work.

TI: Yeah, that might have been the letters, that it was common to have censored those letters. Everything that went in to him and came out.

FD: Well, I thought that it was curious that they cut those pieces out. I thought, "Why couldn't they just black out the parts they didn't want seen?" But maybe they wanted to be positively certain that it couldn't be read.

TI: And where did you see those letters? Was it something your mother had?

FD: Yeah, my mother those.

TI: So now going back to the family, after Pearl Harbor, how did your mother cope? Now all of a sudden your father's gone, he was the head of the family and the church revolved around him. He's removed, and so what, how did the family cope?

FD: Well, that I don't know. But as far as I could tell, life went on as it did before, it's just that he was absent.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: Yeah, so after Pearl Harbor, in the weeks after that, did he continue the Sunday services?

FD: Yeah, I guess so, until he was taken away. I think he was taken away in February.

TI: Yeah, I think it was the end of February based on your writings. And so it probably wasn't that much longer after that that people were starting to be removed from their homes, Japanese Americans.

FD: Yes.

TI: And so how did the family start preparing?

FD: Well, I don't know, but my mother heard from friends, I don't know whether directly or indirectly, that people were being taken away and put into camps. And it was only a matter of time before they got around to Riverside. And so without my knowledge, it seems like she was preparing for all the kids who were at school, putting things away and sorting them out. Somehow she managed to take care of stuff by herself. So she was no dummy.

TI: And did the church help in any way? Because they had, I'm guessing that maybe the house was owned or rented by the church.

FD: It was owned by the big congregational church, that is the Caucasian church downtown. I don't know if the structure is still there, but then the last time I visited Riverside, it was still there. The congregational church was pretty large, had a large structure downtown, sort of a Gothic-like building. And, oh, it must have been well-to-do, 'cause they owned the Japanese church, they called it a mission of the congregational church.

TI: And so did they help out the family, perhaps, like storing things?

FD: Possibly. Well, I think my mother stored all of our stuff in the house, in one of the bedrooms. And she invited other people to store their belongings there, too, if they wanted to, because she had been told that the congregational church would take care of the building, make sure that it wasn't vandalized. Because we had heard that in other localities, some of the houses had been vandalized by people who were angry at the Japanese.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: Okay. And so the day that you leave Riverside, can you describe that day? What was that like?

FD: Well, it's hard to describe. Well, I felt sort of bitter about it. I said, I thought, we haven't done anything, and according to what we've been taught in school, people aren't supposed to be imprisoned without so-called due process of law, and I didn't see any due process of law for us. That is, they didn't take us in front of a judge and hold a trial, and they just decided that they wanted to get rid of all the Japanese. And so I was rather angry about that. In fact, I'm still angry about that.

TI: So were you able to talk to anyone, any adults about this, like at school or anything else?

FD: Yeah, I talked to the principal about it, and he agreed that it was unfair and that he was sorry on behalf of whoever was at fault, but he couldn't do anything about it.

TI: How about your Caucasian friends? Did anybody say anything to you about leaving?

FD: Yeah, they asked, "Well, what do you think about the war?" And all I can remember is I sort of stuttered and said, "Oh, I don't know," and we just sort of laughed it off and then went on with life as usual. In fact... well, actually, that's what I wrote in one of my stories.

TI: And so the day you leave, do you remember what you were wearing?

FD: No.

TI: Or what you carried?

FD: No, I don't remember those details. I do recall that the men seemed to be dressed in their best clothes, their nice suits, and Issei women seemed to be dressed up in their good clothes. And I don't know about me, I don't remember what I wore. [Laughs]

TI: And did you know where you were going at this point?

FD: No, we didn't know.

TI: Okay. So then were you picked up with buses, or how did you leave Riverside?

FD: Well, Mrs. Beck drove us to the place where the buses were going to pick us up, it was downtown someplace.

TI: And so where did the buses take you?

FD: Well, they took us to Poston.

TI: So you went all of it by bus, or did you do it partly by train?

FD: No, all by bus. Because Riverside is inland, and I don't think there's any train that goes from Riverside to the Poston area. The train... I'm not sure.

TI: But still it's a pretty long drive then.

FD: Yeah, it was a long drive.

TI: And do you recall anything from that journey that you remember going on a bus from Riverside to Poston?

FD: Not much anymore, but I did write about it some years ago. In fact, I wrote a lot of that stuff down because I thought when I get older I'm going to forget, so I have to document it now, and I'm glad I did.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: Yeah, so when you go to Poston, do you recall any first impressions when you finally get there?

FD: Well, yeah, I remember dust and heat and standing around waiting to find out what we're supposed to do, where we were supposed to go. And then I noticed that most of the Issei men and Issei ladies all seemed to be dressed in their good clothes. And the men were... well, as time went on, it looked like the men were getting hot and sweaty. I'm sure they did, so they were taking off their coats and untying their ties. They just sort of looked disheveled after a while.

TI: And for you at this point, it was your mother, you, your younger brother, younger sister, so there were four of you?

FD: Uh-huh.

TI: And do you recall kind of your room in the barracks, what that was like?

FD: Oh, yeah. I do remember... well, I was rather upset when I saw where we were supposed to live. I said, "This is just one room and we're supposed to live here?" Then I noticed that there was a hole in the ceiling, in the roof, I said, "Oh my god, what's that for?" And so somebody said, "Oh, that's for a stove that's supposed to be put in here." And I said, "A stove? It's about a hundred degrees now, what do we want a stove for?" But it turned out that in the winter we did need a stove. But the stoves didn't come until the second winter, which I thought was horrible.

TI: So how did they heat the rooms then?

FD: They didn't heat the rooms. We froze to death the first winter. Or not really "to death," but it felt like it. And then the rain would come in through that hole in the roof.

TI: So they just didn't... yeah.

FD: Well, I don't know why they didn't time things better, that is, it was stupid to take us to the camp if it wasn't ready yet.

TI: And so did people, I guess in other rooms, just cover up the hole because, to stop the rain and the dust?

FD: Well, they'd have to climb up on the roof in order to do that, 'cause there was no ceiling.

TI: So when you first get there, you get into the room and set up, what else did you, what other memories do you have of those first days in Poston?

FD: Well, somebody came around and delivered iron cots for each room. And then they gave us great big cotton sacks, one for each person, and they said, "You have to fill these with straw, that's what your mattress is going to be." And so we had, they dumped piles of straw in each block at a certain location, and so we had to go there and stuff our mattresses with straw.

TI: And do you recall what it felt like the first time you slept on your straw mattress?

FD: No, I don't recall that, but I recall stuffing my mattress with the straw and grumbling to myself over, well, the injustice of it all.

TI: Yeah, no, I can see that. And so once you get settled into your apartments, what happens next? I mean, you're still going to school, I mean, do they start school up pretty soon? What happens next?

FD: I have an issue with the word "apartment." They used, I think they used the word apartment to describe our rooms to make it sound better for the general public. But then I think that they should be honest and call them rooms, because we didn't have an apartment. An apartment consists of, that is, more than one room, you have at least a bathroom. But we didn't even have a bathroom, we just had one bare room, and that was all, to live in. And then they brought the iron cots and no other furniture, and yet they had the nerve to describe them as "apartments."

TI: Yeah, that's what the documents called them, "apartments," and they gave them numbers, but essentially they were army barracks on the outside and partitions generally about four rooms, with each a separate entrance. And I guess the rooms were different sizes depending on how large your group was. And so you had four in probably just a small room.

FD: But I thought it was pretty nervy calling them "apartments."

<End Segment 15> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 16>

TI: You're in Poston, Arizona, and I think there's a term, I think "Roastin' Poston?"

FD: Oh, Roastin' Poston.

TI: So it got hot there.

FD: Very hot. It went above 120 degrees.

TI: So how did you cope? What did you do when it got that hot? What would you guys do?

FD: Well, there was nothing we could do, just look for a shady spot. And then after a while I guess you get used to it.

TI: Now, it was on the Indian reservation, the Colorado River Indian reservation. So the Colorado River was fairly close by.

FD: Well, it was about three or four miles away.

TI: Did, were people ever able to go to the river?

FD: The first year we weren't allowed to, but then the second year we were able to go to the river to have picnics. And we had to walk. But Poston didn't have any high fences around it. I think that it's probably because it was in the middle of an Indian reservation in the desert and only a few miles from the river. So if somebody wanted to run away, they would be found by the Indians before they could get to any other place. And then they'd be crazy to try to cross the river, they'd probably drown. And so we didn't have any tall fences around the camp.

TI: How about guards? Were there guards there, do you recall?

FD: I supposed there were guards, but I didn't see them.

TI: And Poston was divided into, like, three different camps?

FD: Yeah, three separate camps.

TI: And which camp were you in?

FD: I was in what they called Number 1, that was the largest one.

TI: And so life in camp, talk about your daily routine when you were at Poston.

FD: Daily routine? Well, it consisted mostly of waiting for mealtimes, I guess. The way you knew the meals were ready was by the gong, somebody would bang on a gong to call people to eat. Well, I guess that was about the only thing. Oh, and then they started showing movies after a while. It happened to be, they happened to show them a place just outside of the block that I lived in, which was nice and convenient. But there were no chairs, so we had to sit on the ground to watch movies, or camp chairs if you had any.

TI: Going back to the meals, in your writings you had a story about apple butter.

FD: Oh, yes.

TI: Tell that story in terms of what that was.

FD: Well, apple butter is just sort of like crushed apples. No, it's just applesauce, I think. And somebody gave me a jar of apple butter as a joke, so I tasted it, but then it was sweet, but then the apple butter that we had in camp didn't taste as sweet as that. I think that if sugar had been rationed out to the camps, that maybe somebody was stealing it and selling it on the outside in the black market, most likely.

TI: So the apple butter you had in camp was unsweetened.

FD: Yes, it was unsweetened.

TI: Just like crushed apples, essentially.

FD: Yeah. It was horrible.

TI: Who would you use it for? What would people use it for?

FD: Oh, well, it was used instead of butter. They didn't give us butter.

TI: And so to put on bread or things like that?

FD: Yeah.

TI: Yeah, it was an interesting story about apple butter and how disappointing it was that that's all you had.

<End Segment 16> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 17>

TI: Talk about school at Poston. What was that like?

FD: Well, the first year, school was held in, at the so-called "recreation halls" of each block, because they didn't have a central school building. So I don't know about elementary kids, I think they probably stayed in one room for the entire school day. But then for high school kids, they had classes in various recreation halls in different blocks. And so on a given day, depending on what your classes were and where they were, you might have to tramp all over the camp in order to attend classes.

TI: Well, that's interesting. So, because there wasn't a central school, like, I guess an example, mathematics or something, he would maybe have to go to a different block to attend there. So students from all different blocks would take their math course.

FD: Uh-huh. And then for social studies, you might have to go to another block, and for other classes you go to a different block. But anyway, it seemed like we were tramping all over the camp to attend school. While we were doing that, the adults were busy planning and building school buildings. And they built them out of adobe bricks, so I recall walking past the area where they were making adobe bricks and they would put them into wooden forms and laid them out to dry in the sun. So as I walked past it every day on the way to school, I would ask somebody, "What are you going to do with these and when?" And they said, "Oh, you're going to have a nice school building one of these days. And so by the second year, they had constructed a school building.

TI: And when you way the adults did this, were these the inmates?

FD: Yes, the inmates. They had to build, do all the labor themselves. And they got paid, I forgot how much, something like sixteen or eighteen dollars a months for doing this hard labor.

TI: But they would literally make the bricks and build a school?

FD: Yeah, and they made the bricks by digging a hole in the ground, and that hole in the ground eventually became so big that somebody had the bright idea to line it with concrete and make it into a swimming pool.

TI: Oh, so they built, I mean, the hole was to get the clay for the bricks, and then they made concrete swimming pools. So probably right next to the school then?

FD: Well, it's near the school.

TI: And what was the schooling like? I mean, who were the teachers for you?

FD: Well, some of them were inmates, that is, Japanese Americans who were still college students, maybe only freshman or sophomore college students. And there were a few Caucasian teachers who were probably more qualified. But most of the teachers, I think, were camp inmates.

TI: And here you were, you were a really good student in junior high school. What was the quality of the education for you? I mean, how did you feel about what you were learning in the camp school?

FD: I don't remember how I felt about it. It just seemed like I probably wasn't learning as much as I would have in our home schools, schools at home.

TI: Yeah, I want to go back to a story you told me earlier about your principal. So after you left Riverside and were at Poston, you were mentioning your principal sent you something.

FD: Yeah, he sent me my graduation certificate from junior high school because I was in the ninth grade.

TI: And what did that mean to you when you received your certificate?

FD: Oh, I was delighted. I thought, oh, this was so nice of him. And then I was even more appreciative because I remembered his handwriting, and it looked like his own handwriting.

TI: By any chance did you keep that? Do you still have it?

FD: Yeah, I still have it.

TI: I'd love to see that.

<End Segment 17> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 18>

TI: You know, when you were at Poston, after about a year, your father was released, I guess, from Santa Fe, and he joined the family at Poston?

FD: Uh-huh.

TI: Do you remember what that was like, then, when he returned?

FD: No, I don't remember. It seemed to me that he just came home and just was home momentarily and then he was suddenly off on, off doing whatever he did, that is, ministering to people and going off to church. And, oh, during his absence, some of the people, I guess from Riverside, had built a desk for him to use whenever he came to us.

TI: And so people in Riverside built a desk and they sent it to Poston?

FD: No. In camp they scrounged around for scrap lumber.

TI: Okay, so expecting his return.

FD: Yeah, expecting his return, they built a nice desk for him, which I thought was very thoughtful. And they did it by... well, I'm not sure whether they got the lumber legitimately or whether they stole it.

TI: Or scrap lumber.

FD: Yeah. And then they needed nails, too.

TI: Well, during that brief time when your father was more home, what was that like for you to have your father back?

FD: Well, I guess it was nice, but I don't remember much about it because he was gone so much of the time.

TI: And what kept him so busy? You said so right away he was doing his ministering, what was that, what was he doing?

FD: Well, he was helping to organize a church for the Issei population, the Japanese immigrant population.

TI: Because at that point there wasn't a Christian church for the Isseis?

FD: Well, there probably was, but then they probably needed help, so he did whatever he could to help.

TI: Okay, so right away he got really busy then.

FD: Yeah, right away he just went off as if he had gone to work.

TI: And how about your mother? Did she have a job?

FD: Yeah, because she worked in the kitchen. Yeah, she worked in the kitchen. I'm not sure what she did in the kitchen, but then she said she can't just sit around doing nothing all day.

TI: Okay.

<End Segment 18> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 19>

TI: Now, I think after your junior year, a decision was made that you would attend school outside of camp. Can you talk about that? How was that decision made?

FD: Oh, well, a teacher or somebody came to me one day and said, "You can go to college outside if you want to." And I said, "College? But I'm only a junior. What about my senior year?" And so anyway, I thought that I might not be able to get into UC Berkeley if I didn't have all the prerequisites done in high school. So I said, well, I guess maybe I should go to high school instead of college, so that's what they arranged for me to do, to go to high school.

TI: But then why high school outside of camp? You could have stayed in high school in camp.

FD: Oh, because outside of camp I would probably get a better education than in camp. And then, too, it was an opportunity for me to see other parts of the United States, because as things were, I thought that I'd probably live my entire life in California and never see anyplace else. And this was an opportunity to see other parts of this country.

TI: So you were pretty excited about this.

FD: Yeah. And the only thing I wasn't excited about was going to college. I thought, "Oh, dear, I'm so short and so young, and I don't know anything." Well, if I don't finish my prerequisites in high school, how am I going to get into Cal? And at that time, nobody told me that I could have gotten those prerequisites done at this college that they were thinking of sending me to. By the time I found out, it was too late.

TI: Now, were they doing the same thing with other students in your grade?

FD: Yeah, there were a few other students.

TI: So they were essentially thinking that spending another year at the camp high school probably wasn't gonna help you that much, so it was better to get you outside for a better school.

FD: Yeah.

TI: So how did you decide to go to Brecksville, Ohio?

FD: Oh, that was decided for me by somebody, I don't know who.

TI: And so talk about the journey to Ohio. I mean, what did you have to do? Was it just like hopping onto a train and going to Ohio? What was it like for you?

FD: Yeah, we got on a train, and I think that the windows were either blackened or the shades were pulled. Anyway, we weren't allowed to look outside.

TI: So when you say "we," how many other Japanese Americans were there?

FD: Oh, there must have been a whole train, rather, a train carload. So there was an armed guard on both ends of the car, and the shades had to be drawn. I don't know what we did about going to the bathroom, I guess we must have been allowed to go to the bathroom somewhere, or maybe the car had a bathroom, I don't remember.

TI: Do you recall what the guards were like? Were they friendly or were they pretty distant?

FD: They were distant and sort of grim looking. And if I were in that situation today, I might have tried to strike up a conversation with them. But then I was too intimidated at that time.

TI: So when you arrived in Ohio, what was that like for you?

FD: Well, it was sort of exciting.

TI: And so they had arranged for you to stay with a family?

FD: Yeah.

TI: So tell me a little bit about the family. Who did you stay with?

FD: It was a family that had three children. One was ten years old and she happened to be the same height that I was. And then there were two younger children, one was five and the other three or something like that. And the father owned a news company, I think it was a newspaper publishing company or something like that in Cleveland.

TI: And so you stayed with this family, you were kind of like a housegirl where you would help with the chores and things like that?

FD: Yes.

TI: And then you would then go to school at the local high school?

FD: Uh-huh.

TI: So how did that community accept you? Because you're probably, there aren't very many Japanese in Ohio. So what was it like for you to go to Ohio?

FD: Well, it was pleasant, and I had no real complaints about it. And at school everybody was friendly, that is, almost everybody, there was one boy that I didn't like.

TI: Now, did they know where you had come from, that you came from camp?

FD: I think so. Well, anyway, it was a pleasant interlude, I should say.

<End Segment 19> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 20>

TI: Okay, so you were there for a year. And so how did you do in school there?

FD: Oh, I did well in school.

TI: And from your writings, I read that you actually were, in terms of academic achievement, like, number two in the whole school.

FD: Yeah, uh-uh.

TI: And so with many schools, at the end of the school year, when they do the graduation, they have the highest, the valedictorian speaking, and also the second person, the salutatorian, speak also. So what happened at Brecksville?

FD: Oh, they told me that my voice was too soft, that it probably couldn't be heard in the auditorium, and that therefore they were asking the next person to give the salutatorian speech. And since I was so shy and... well, it didn't occur to me that I could ask them to let me try out because I used to speak in front of the entire auditorium in junior high school. Brecksville High School consisted of only about three hundred students, but the junior high school had a thousand. And somehow I was able to make myself heard in the junior high school auditorium, so if they would let me at least try out in this auditorium, I think I could be heard. But then it didn't occur to me to say that because I was just so young and, well, unsure of myself, I guess.

TI: So the reason they gave was because you were so soft-spoken, wouldn't be heard. Do you think that was the reason why?

FD: Well, I suspected that it was because I didn't want to have a Japanese American up there, that is, having the honor.

TI: Do you recall anyone complaining about not letting you speak?

FD: Not that I know of.

TI: Like a teacher or someone, perhaps didn't think it was fair?

FD: I don't know if anyone did. And I was not assertive enough to say anything.

TI: But you were young and you didn't have your parents or other adults there to support you.

FD: Yeah, that's true.

TI: But it seemed like it would be a pretty difficult situation. How did you feel about not being able to speak?

FD: Well, I was disappointed and angry. And I was still unhappy about that, but of course there was nothing I could do.

TI: Have you ever considered maybe contacting the high school and just letting them know what happened?

FD: Well, by the time I thought of that, I think that the people responsible would have been long gone, so it would be of no use whatsoever to even attempt to...

TI: It's almost like for their school history they should be reminded what happened at their school. I mean, it's just a learning opportunity for their current student body, because oftentimes I think students think of issues of racism as being something someplace else. And for them to know the story would be, I think would be valuable for them. So maybe we'll send then a short clip or transcript of this so they can know what's happened. You mentioned also during the graduation ceremonies that perhaps there was a boy who also didn't like you or something?

FD: We were supposed to be arranged according to height, and the shortest... well, I was the shortest girl, of course, but the shortest boy said, supposedly said, I was told that he said that he "didn't want to walk with a Jap." And so another guy who was the next shortest, volunteered to walk with me.

TI: Now, how did you find this out?

FD: Because he told me?

TI: So, which, who told you?

FD: The second fellow, the second shortest. And so as I wrote in my story, that that spoiled the whole event for me. If he hadn't told me that this guy, the first guy, Martin, had said that he didn't want to walk with me. If I didn't know that, I would have been okay with not being a salutatorian. But then, well, it just hurt to have somebody say that he didn't want to walk with a "Jap," because I didn't consider myself a "Jap," I thought, "I'm American."

TI: So it feels like a really bittersweet ceremony for you as you sit there realizing you're not up there speaking, and that there was a boy who didn't want to speak, or walk with you because of your race. And you were kind of alone, too, because your parents were in Arizona and not able to celebrate your graduation.

FD: Uh-huh.

TI: I think about graduations today, high school graduations and how they're such a celebration and the whole family, and how alone you must have felt.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 21>

TI: So after you finished high school, what happens next?

FD: Well, I had heard that California was now open to Japanese Americans so that we could go back there. And then my parents, my family had already moved back to Riverside while I was in Ohio, so I decided, well, I'll go to UC Berkeley.

TI: And why Berkeley and not Los Angeles, like UCLA or someplace closer?

FD: Oh, because in those days, we considered UCLA inferior. And the only school worth going to, that is, public school that I knew of was Berkeley. And besides, one of the reasons that I wanted to go to UC Berkeley was because the big brother of my best girlfriend was attending UC Berkeley.

TI: And what was the big brother to you? Just someone that because he was there, you wanted to go?

FD: Yeah, he was, just happened to be someone who was there, and I sometimes said hello to when he happened to when he happened to be home. He wasn't a close friend of mine, it was his little sister who was my friend.

TI: Okay, but then it was comforting to just know that you would know someone at Berkeley.

FD: Uh-huh. And then there were other people I knew who had gone to Berkeley.

TI: And so how difficult was it for you to get into Berkeley?

FD: None at all, no difficulty at all.

TI: And so you go to Berkeley and what was that like for you, to actually to be back on the West Coast?

FD: Well, it was sort of overwhelming, because here I'd been in this tiny school with only five hundred students, and all of a sudden I'm in this school that has thousands of students in each class. So I just felt overwhelmed for a while.

TI: Now, were there very many Japanese going to Berkeley?

FD: Oh, yes, there were some. And so eventually I met a few. And then one led to another and so on. And when I first... I stayed with a Caucasian girl's family who had moved to Berkeley from Riverside, and so I stayed with them for a couple of weeks until I found a place to stay. That is, I had to work as a so-called schoolgirl in order to afford to go. So as soon as I found a place to work, off I went.

TI: And going back to your family, you said they returned to Riverside. So I'm guessing that your dad returned to the church. And how was it for him? Did a lot of Japanese Americans come back to Riverside?

FD: Yes. In fact, more than before the war, because in camp a lot of people who lived in surrounding communities got acquainted with us and with my father. And so people who lived in San Bernardino, Redlands, and other small communities around Riverside started coming to the Riverside church.

TI: Oh, so after the war, the congregation got bigger then.

FD: Yes, uh-huh.

TI: And that was because of the camp connection?

FD: I think so.

TI: So from a church standpoint, it actually helped for your dad, for more people to get exposed to your dad's teachings, and then they then went after.

FD: Uh-huh.

TI: Okay. You know, in my notes it shows that you started at Berkeley, but then you graduated from UCLA.

FD: Oh, that was because I was having too much fun at Berkeley. [Laughs]

TI: So tell me about that story. That wasn't in your writing, so what happened at Berkeley?

FD: Well, in high school, a lot of kids had boyfriends and went to dances and had dates and such, but I never did. I never had a boyfriend. There was one boy that I liked, and that I had short conversations with between classes once in a while, but I wouldn't call him a boyfriend. Other than that... oh, and then I didn't go out on dates because I had no boyfriend to go with. And while I was at Berkeley, well, I was sort of delighted to discover that boys seemed to be attracted to me. They would come up to me and ask me my name and stuff like that, and any other environment, one wouldn't speak to a stranger, but I felt that, well, since they were fellow students, I guess it's okay to talk to these boys who were asking me this and that. And so I started going out on dates. Well, since I had never had a boyfriend before, I was so pleased, happy that people were, that boys were interested in me, that I decided to, I said, "Well, I am taking social studies after all, so I guess going on dates is social." So anyway, I jokingly told people that I was majoring in social studies. And then eventually, I guess I didn't study enough, so my grades sort of suffered. And one semester I was on probation, which was a big shock. And so my parents said, "Well, maybe you should either quit school and go to work, or transfer to a school closer to home." And so I transferred to UCLA and they wanted me to go home every weekend instead of going out on dates. [Laughs]

TI: [Laughs] So they had to give you a little more structure.

FD: Yeah, so that's why I graduated from UCLA.

TI: And what did you graduate in at UCLA?

FD: International relations with emphasis on the Far East. What I really wanted was to study Asian American studies, but they didn't have anything like that in those days. So the closest I could get was Poli-sci, that is, political science.

TI: And so at this point, how politically aware would you say you were? This is, you're in college, I mean, you had just one through an experience where the U.S. government, and you're a U.S. citizen, learned that they just did something they're not supposed to do, and put Japanese Americans in concentration camps. And now you go into political science. So how would you describe yourself in terms of your political awareness?

FD: Well, I guess I was more politically aware than most of my Japanese American friends. But at Cal I discovered that I wasn't that unusual, that there were a lot of other Japanese Americans who felt the same way that I did.

TI: So would you then talk about these issues?

FD: Yes, uh-huh.

TI: And what kind of conversations would you have? Would you talk about the camps and what it did to the community and things like that?

FD: Yeah, sometimes.

TI: And so you found kind of a kindred spirit, I mean, people who you could talk with about this that they understood.

FD: Uh-huh.

TI: Well, so that kind of leads into after you graduated, you went to go work for the ACLU.

FD: Uh-huh.

<End Segment 21> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 22>

TI: So, Flo, we just took a short break, and we were just getting into how you started at the ACLU. But before we do that, I realize the ACLU of Northern California was the Bay Area. So you graduated, or you were finishing up at UCLA, how did you get back up to the Bay Area?

FD: Well, because I had, there was one prerequisite for my degree, and I wasn't able to take it at UCLA because it was offered at the same hour and day that another prerequisite for my degree was offered. So, in order to get my degree, I had to take that course. And instead of attending UCLA for another semester just to take this one course, I decided... well, I learned that it was offered at the UC Berkeley summer session. So I decided to take it at the summer session at UC Berkeley.

TI: So that got you back up to the Bay Area.

FD: Up to the Bay Area, and then I got together with my former friends that I had known when I was attending UC Berkeley. And after I finished school, I didn't know exactly what to do, and I didn't want to go back to Southern California because the climate was so hot and I was sick and tired of heat after my years in Poston. I thought, I've had it with heat, so I want to stay where it's nice and cool. And Berkeley seemed to be a nice places, so I stayed there for a while. And then my roommate, who had been one of my friends when I was at UC Berkeley, and I, shared an apartment, and she got a job in San Francisco and said she worked for the Council for Civic Unity, which is defunct now, I think. But anyway, she said, across the street, there's an office of the American Civil Liberties Union. And I had heard about the ACLU, that they had been the only, one of the very few organizations that had stood up and complained about the Japanese being incarcerated. And so I thought, well, I think I'd like to work there if possible, so I went and applied and it turned out that I was the only applicant who was willing to take low pay. Because at that time they were offering only two hundred dollars a month, which was not much. But I figured, well, I guess that's enough, it'll pay my rent and food. And then, too, I thought, well, I don't have any experience in office work so I guess it's better than no job at all. And then it turned out that I had taken a semester of shorthand 'cause I thought I might need it if I couldn't get a job doing something else, whatever I wanted to do. And so he was dictating letters and stuff.

TI: And when you say "he"...

FD: Oh, that's Mr. Besig, was dictating correspondence to me, and affidavits and things like that. And I had such a hard time keeping up, and then that was bad enough, then I couldn't read some of my scribbling. And so after a while, he says, "You really don't know shorthand, do you?" [Laughs] Oh, that's true. And so he bought dictation equipment, which was rather new at the time, and after that, I was able to manage. And then after a few years I got married and decided that I didn't want to work full time anymore, and I thought it'd be nice if I could find a part-time job.

TI: And before you move to the next job, were you able to ever have discussions with Mr. Besig about his work around the Japanese Americans and, in particular, maybe the Korematsu case or anything like that?

FD: Yeah, occasionally from time to time. Oh, and then I met his wife, and we became close friends. So even after I stopped working there, he and his wife used to invite me over to his house for dinner once in a while, and then after I got married I invited them to my house occasionally for dinner, and we became, well, lifelong friends.

TI: Yeah, so because you knew him so well, and his wife, why do you think they stood up for the Japanese Americans? Because everyone else wasn't during this time period.

FD: Well, it's because it was a matter of civil liberties, that it was wrong, according to the Constitution. People were being discriminated against simply because of their national origin or their ancestry, and well...

TI: And yet, lawyers all across the country, even the national ACLU, didn't stand up for the Japanese Americans. I mean, Ernest Besig at Northern California was just a chapter that kind of stood up for them, but national didn't, and so...

FD: I know, uh-huh.

TI: So what made him so special?

FD: Well, that is, he was a firm believer in civil liberties, and he thought that the government, well, that the government couldn't be trusted to do the right thing. And so he protested and filed lawsuits, and did whatever he could to right the wrong.

TI: Now, did he have much contact or experience with Japanese Americans before the war?

FD: I don't think so. And he didn't do it because they were Japanese Americans, he did it because their rights were being abrogated.

TI: And how supportive was his wife for doing all this work? Because I'm guessing that they may have been called names and maybe even ostracized by some people because of their stance with Japanese Americans.

FD: Well, possibly, but, well, his wife supported him as far as I could tell.

TI: Did they ever talk about that, whether or not other people kind of shunned them because of his work?

FD: No, no. Because they had plenty of people who agreed with them, and they had influential friends.

TI: Yeah, no, in Japanese American history, he's a giant, the things he did. So it's exciting to talk with someone who actually worked with him.

FD: Uh-huh.

TI: Anything else about the Besig couple that kind of comes to mind about who they were as people?

FD: Well, I don't know.

TI: Like it sounds like they were good friends, they were nice people.

FD: Yeah. And by coincidence, after I got married, I moved into a house that's only about a half a mile from their home. So we used to get together more frequently then.

<End Segment 22> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 23>

TI: So you were just then talking about, you then got married and were looking for a part-time job, and so I think that led to your next job with Wayne Collins.

FD: Uh-huh.

TI: So talk about how that happened.

FD: Well, he wanted a part-time secretary, because, well, going back a little bit, one of my girlfriends from UCLA had moved to San Francisco and wanted a job, a part-time job, because she was also married. And so I suggested that, well, I knew that Wayne Collins was looking for a secretary, so I recommended her to Mr. Collins. And told him that she's a close friend of mine, and I don't know how her work habits are or anything about her skills, but I do know that she's a good friend of mine and I like her very much. And he hired her, and then after she got married and moved over to the East Bay, she quit the job. And then I thought, "Oh, how convenient, I would like that job." And so I asked Collins if he would hire me, and he said, "Sure." And so I left Besig and went over to Collins' office.

TI: And to be his kind of personal secretary?

FD: Well, he had another secretary, Chiyo Wada, who was very fluent in Japanese. And he was handling the cases of renunciants, people who had renounced their citizenship under duress during World War II. And a lot of them were Japanese speakers, some of them had been raised or educated in Japan, and their first language is Japanese. And Chiyo Wada was very fluent in Japanese, and she was able to read and write Japanese, too, so correspondence with them was easier with her working in the office. And well, she's Yoi Wada's wife, you've heard of him probably. And they had four kids, and she said that she was so tired of being a mother that she welcomed being able to work outside the home while her kids were in school.

TI: Well, and her Japanese language, I guess, in terms of taking affidavits and things like that, or testimonies for affidavits, she was really valuable for the Japanese language.

FD: Yes.

TI: So going back earlier, you talked about Ernest Besig, how your shorthand wasn't very good.

FD: Oh, it was terrible. So he bought transcription equipment.

TI: Right. Now, with Wayne Collins...

FD: Well, he said he wanted nothing to do with "newfangled contraptions." [Laughs]

TI: So how did you handle things like shorthand? I mean, when he wanted to have you dictate a letter?

FD: Well, so I listened closely and discovered his style of speech, or rather learned what it was, and so I started writing up rough drafts for him. So that way I avoided an awful lot of shorthand and transcription.

TI: So in other words, you would create the letters, the documents, without having him having to tell you what to do, you could actually look at a case and know that this is kind of what needs to be written?

FD: Uh-huh. Based on what he had done previously.

TI: So you became more like a legal assistant almost in terms of creating these documents.

FD: Yes, uh-huh.

TI: And so how was that for him? Did he like that or did he...

FD: He didn't complain. [Laughs]

TI: Because it made his life easier.

FD: Yeah, uh-huh. And then it was only a few years later that, after I had quit, I was told that... well, he had an assistant lawyer in his office. I was told that this assistant lawyer was doing the work that I used to do, and then I started thinking, "Oh, I missed the boat, I should have asked for more money." [Laughs]

TI: To be actually paid at that level. Going back to Wayne Collins and what he was doing, handling the renunciant cases, there were literally thousands of these.

FD: Well, he had almost five thousand.

TI: Five thousand. And so the volume was huge.

FD: Uh-huh.

TI: It took him decades to get through this.

FD: Yes, it did, more than twenty years, something like almost twenty-four or twenty-five, something like that.

TI: And each case had to be done on an individual basis.

FD: Yes.

TI: And as you go through this, did certain patterns sort of come up so that you kind of knew what needed to be kind of emphasized in these letters of affidavit so that you would have a stronger case against the government.

FD: Uh-huh.

TI: Can you describe what some of those things might be? What were you looking for?

FD: I don't remember. And besides, I don't think I should tell you even if I did remember.

TI: Okay, because that would be kind of client confidentiality?

FD: Uh-huh.

TI: But I'm just thinking, how, I mean, the volume was just incredible. And my understanding was that he wasn't really being paid that much to do these.

FD: No. And I think they were charging something like three hundred dollars per person to do it, something like that. And in some cases, he didn't get paid, but he went ahead and included those people in his mass suit anyhow.

TI: Now was what he was doing when you were there, was that somewhat controversial within the community, that he was helping renunciants? Because during the war, there was friction with other community members in terms of the decision to maybe answer "no-no" on the "loyalty questionnaire," and then go to Japan. So was there any controversy within the community in terms of this work?

FD: Well, if there was, I wasn't aware of it.

TI: When you told people what you were doing, did people ever...

FD: I didn't tell them what I was doing.

TI: And why was that?

FD: Huh? Because it was none of their business. That is, I wasn't going to say that a fellow by this name or that came to the office for this problem or that problem. That is, well, it didn't need any explanation, that is, when you work for somebody, you don't go around telling others what the employer is doing or saying.

TI: Or did it come up because of who you worked for, whether it's an Ernest Besig or Wayne Collins, I guess, how well-known were they in the Japanese American community?

FD: I don't know how well-known they were.

TI: Yeah, maybe as more of a historian, I'm really familiar with those names of what these men did. I guess maybe the question I'm asking is, how well did the community know about the work of these men?

FD: Sorry, I just don't know.

TI: Okay. And did you have a sense of, sort of, the importance of their work when you kind of were working with them? I mean, if you were able to take a step back and think almost from a historical perspective, what these men were doing?

FD: Yes, yes. Well, that's one of the reasons why I was willing to work for peanuts, because I thought that it was for a good cause.

TI: Any other kind of stories about working with Wayne Collins before we move on? Anything else you can think of?

FD: No.

TI: And in general, how would you just describe working for him? How was he as an employer?

FD: Well, at first he was intimidating, but then once you get past that, he turned out to be a very kind and humorous friend.

TI: Okay, good. So after a couple years, you left because I guess your husband's business was expanding or he was doing something?

FD: Yeah, well, he established a Japanese restaurant with a group of his friends, and they needed clerical help.

TI: So you went over there to go help them with that, do that. So can you tell me your husband's name?

FD: Frank Hideo Dobashi.

TI: Okay. And did you have any children?

FD: One.

TI: And the name of your child?

FD: John. And incidentally, I divorced my husband.

TI: And when did you divorce your husband?

FD: Let's see, I've forgotten now. Around 1980 or thereabouts.

<End Segment 23> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 24>

TI: And the way I got in touch with you was you've been published in three different books. And so I just want to ask you, so why is it important for you to write about these memories and share them?

FD: Oh, well, I don't know why it's so important, I just did it for myself. And if other people enjoy it, so much the better.

TI: When you say "do it for yourself," what does that mean? Why'd you feel the need to do it for yourself?

FD: Oh, it's like writing a diary. Just making a record of my memories, I guess.

TI: And when you complete it, what does that feel like, when you're able to kind of write down your memories and kind of maybe just have to remember things, write it down, probably revise it a couple times and edit it. When you're all done, how does that feel for you?

FD: Well, I'm not all done. I still have more to do.

TI: So tell me, what are your plans, what are you doing right now?

FD: What?

TI: What are doing right now?

FD: Oh, I'm still writing more about my experiences.

TI: And then the plan is to put it all in one book or something?

FD: Maybe. I don't have any plan per se.

TI: And how much are you writing? Is it like every day you write a little bit?

FD: No. I belong to a creative writing workshop, so I write a little piece for them almost every week. Some of the pieces are not worth saving and others are better than others. And, well, it's just sort of a hobby, I guess.

TI: Okay, no, and it's so valuable, too.

FD: Yeah, well, I'm just doing it for myself, that is, for the fun of it.

TI: But as a record of what happened, I think it's really valuable, too.

FD: Uh-huh. And then I take some... what do you call it... I'm so old that I'm losing my vocabulary. Literary license or whatever you call it, I embellish some things.

TI: So it becomes almost more like historical fiction?

FD: Yeah, I guess that's what you'd call it.

TI: Okay. So, I finished all my questions, is there anything else that you wanted to share or say that maybe I missed?

FD: No.

TI: Well, so Flo, thank you so much, this was really enjoyable. And I was telling you after the break, I think you have this amazing story, and I think it flowed together really well, so thank you.

FD: Well, you're welcome.

<End Segment 24> - Copyright © 2016 Densho. All Rights Reserved.