<Begin Segment 4>

[Translated from Japanese]

I2: There is an FBI report about your torture. This report is based on the testimony by the former Internal Security Officer at Tule Lake Clifford Payne. There are slight discrepancies between the report and what you told Dr. [inaudible] about what you saw and experienced.

TY: How so?

I2: I am going to read the record now. Could you share about your interpretation of what happened? I am going to read from the beginning. "Security Manager Mr. Cole and I along with two other officers were standing and watching the military standing by and getting ready to enter into the WRA office to take over the responsibilities. I proposed to go to the female residence area just in case some women might need assistance." One name is anonymous as XX. "We got in a car parked in front of the WRA office, went onto the road by backing up, and were going to drive toward the camp stores. The headlights lit up three Japanese people when we got on the road. Those three were running toward us from the camp store. I heard them screaming, 'Let's get Best.' It wasn't that threatening, but I thought it would be trouble. The three came running toward us. XX and I jumped out of the car. I heard XX screaming, 'Take your gun out.'" "XX is..." is he a different person?

I1: I didn't translate this part.

I2: I see. "XX was equipped with a baseball bat. There was only that one bat at that time. The Japanese people were still coming toward us, but they slowed down to walking. I pointed my gun at them in the headlights. They suddenly shouted, 'We don't know anything.' We captured them. XX joined us. He was equipped with a .45 millimeter automatic pistol that he brought from the WRA office. I put my gun back in the holster. I wanted to keep my arms free in case of fighting. The Japanese guys must have noticed that I put my pistol back to the holster. They were walking four feet ahead of us and suddenly started to talk to each other in Japanese. They suddenly turned around and came toward us with their fists up. My attention went straight to the Japs who were coming toward me." It is interesting that he started using the word "Jap" from here. "My attention went straight to the Japs. I heard XX fire three shots from his automatic pistol." There is a missing part, and it goes on. "I hit the Japs with my fist." Skipping some and, "XX told me later that he beat the Japs with the tip of the automatic pistol. I definitely saw XX beat the third Jap with the baseball bat. All three were conscious, but they were all beaten up, especially the one whom XX hit with the baseball bat. We caught these three, had them stand up, and took them to the WRA office. In the WRA office..." Let's stop here.

TY: First of all, there weren't three people. That's wrong. It was only Todoroki and I.

I2: That's right at the beginning.

TY: I didn't know Kobayashi at all. We were asked to go to the warehouse and calm down the people there. We were running in the dark. About six or seven foreigners suddenly came out and came toward us. We didn't do anything. I didn't realize at the moment that they were all armed. We were not. There's no way that we were going toward them. They suddenly came out in front of us in the dark. No headlights. It was pitch dark. We were hit with their big fists in an instant. We got beaten up. We were both taken to the office. Our noses were bleeding, and we were covered with blood. They said, "You are the troublemakers. You started the disturbance." We were repeatedly kicked and beaten. In the middle of this, another WRA officer brought Kobayashi. Kobayashi was told to hold up his arms as we were, but he refused. He refused and said "Why do I need to do that?" "What? Who do you think you are?" He was hit by a baseball bat.

I1: He wasn't injured until he got hit by the baseball bat?

TY: Right, he wasn't injured. Tom Kobayashi was a big guy like a wrestler. I first met him there.

I2: What about the statement that you shouted: "Let's get Best?"

TY: We didn't say that at all. I don't understand.

I2: I think it was from the interview with Murakawa, I read that you went to see Mr. Best on November 1st, and he refused to meet with you. I assume that you didn't get to see him there but still wanted to talk to him. So, you said something like, "Let's get Best" in English, but those white security officers interpreted it as, "Let's get Best." You meant something like "Let's contact Best and meet with him."

TY: Mr. Myer. All the leaders including Mr. Kai and Mr. Kuratomi along with 2,000 to 3,000 residents got together for his visit. It appeared as an organized demonstration to the administration. We thought we might be able to arrange a meeting with Mr. Myer if a large number of people requested it. We wanted our delegates Mr. Best and Mr. Myer to get together and discuss the issues we had. But we needed to get permission from Mr. Best. We needed to be on the same page.

I1: So, it is reported that the Japanese Americans were screaming, "Let's get Best" on November 4, but even if someone had said that, it was not meant to be "get" as in "capture."

TY: It was not.

I1: The quote could also be from something that was said on November 1st.

TY: I went into the office alone empty-handed. I didn't want the crowd to make a scene. About five or six people were in the office. They asked me what I came for, and I said, "I'm looking for Mr. Best." I told them that I came to ask them to sit down with our delegates to discuss the issues. They asked my name, so I told them that I am Tokio Yamane and my residence was on seven. They told me that there was no need for a meeting. I insisted, "How about limiting the number of delegates to a few?" They denied the request. They said that there was no need for a meeting and that Mr. Myer wasn't there either. I gave up and told our people about it. We were dismissed and left.

I1: So, the person who wrote the report on November 4th knew that you were in the office on November 1st. He knew you had been there previously. It could be possible that his quote was from the previous case.

I2: Did you want to discuss the re-segregation and demand better living conditions with Mr. Best?

TY: Correct. We sent Mr. Kuratomi to solve the problems, but there hadn't been any solutions offered at all. So, the representatives and residents from each block stood up together and went to talk to the administration. We wanted to have the issues resolved. But the administration didn't find it necessary to hold a meeting. They might have found the large group of people challenging or threatening.

I2: Was it Mr. Kai who thought the large number would bring a better result?

TY: Yes. Mr. Kai, Kuratomi and the other delegates contacted their block members to gather. "We are going to organize a demonstration tomorrow, so please follow us." "Let's go." We ended up having approximately 2,000 to 3,000 people including women and children. It was large.

I1: It was a large number but wasn't like a riot.

TY: Not at all.

I1: It was peaceful.

TY: There were little children there too. [Laughs]

I2: The idea was that if you got a large number, then Mr. Best would listen to you.

TY: Yes. We had sent our delegates and had numerous negotiations with WRA and Mr. Best, but there wasn't any improvement on the issues. We heard that Mr. Myer had come or was coming, so we gathered in a large number for a chance to negotiate the issues with him. But we didn't see Mr. Myer. There were five or six people in the office, and Mr. Best identified himself. This was my first encounter with him.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright (c) 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.