<Begin Segment 12>

LT: You were a friend of Gordon's from 1940 when you were students and members of the Y in Seattle. You were a friend during his trial, you maintained your friendship throughout his imprisonment, you and your husband Charlie have maintained your friendship when he was, he and his family were in the Middle East --

ED: When they what?

LT: When they were in the Middle East, when they were in Canada, and then when he returned to Seattle. You had a long term friendship, and you've seen him from early until his later years until he died in 1987, I think. 2012, he died in 2012.

ED: I'm sorry about that.

LT: But I'm wondering, having the long term broad view of Gordon Hirabayashi, I'm wondering what you saw in him that remained the same and what was different. Let's start with the same.

ED: What remained the same?

LT: Yeah. From the time that you first met him when you were college students, through the span of his life until his later years, what were ways that he stayed the same?

ED: That he changed?

LT: What were ways that he stayed the same?

ED: Well, I think you'd have to look at his attitude toward his confinement, but he seemed to take that pretty sturdily all the way through. And I think he found his ability to talk with ministers helpful. Now, whether that's applying to that question, I don't know. But in school, after prison, I'm sure that there were kids that gave them a really hard time, but he didn't tell us about that. He came to our place and was pretty much, well, happy. Sometimes cooked for us, but he didn't often get involved in his family things.

LT: In what?

ED: He didn't bring his family into our family, which is too bad, I think. His kids were a lot more rambunctious than ours were. [Laughs] He cooked, as I said, and that was fun. But he would call us from Seattle or maybe from Canada to say, "I'm coming down and I'll be there such-and-such." And that was always a good visit. He was a good visitor and a good friend, and he was always willing to do anything he could to help. And he and Charlie had good discussions. We went to visit them in Canada one time, I regret that we didn't do it again. It was when he was ill, and his wife had to do quite a bit. And the kids were not there at all, they were off to their schools, wherever they were, so we didn't get acquainted with the kids, for which I am sorry. I made one real effort to get acquainted with the older girl, and we were with Gordy at that time, so Gordy said, "Well, she'll be bringing the dog home from something or other when you get down there, so why don't we call and have her take you to have you come for dinner?" So that was set up that we were going to drive down there. And we called him from somewhere, it all got mixed up. We didn't have a dinner with him, and that was sad for me. But Gordy did stop with us at our house occasionally.

LT: I'm taken by the fact that you describe him as happy, he had a positive attitude, and this is a man who was confined by the government for being Japanese American.

ED: Whatever.

LT: What do you think that came from?

ED: Well, it's on occasion imperative to maintain that attitude, or else you're sunk, or else you're down in the deeps. And so he taught my (grandchildren) to play poker, and played outside games with them, I think, I don't remember. And I presume he did the same with other kids, other families' kids.

LT: So you talked about the way that Gordon Hirabayashi stayed the same from the beginning when you knew him, when you met him, until his later years. Were there ways that you also saw that he changed?

ED: Well, I knew him when he was ill toward the end of his life. And I didn't think he changed very much. He persisted in holding to a good attitude. I can't say a happy attitude or whatever, but a stable attitude. And of course his wife had a lot to do with that; she was wonderful. I always regret that we didn't make that second or third trip.

LT: So you're talking about Susan, Gordon's second wife. Can you tell me more about her?

ED: [Ed. Note: Eleanor is talking about Esther, Gordon's first wife, not Susan.] Almost nothing. She was very young when we were in college, and she was a Quaker, and so we had very little contact. Later on, when Gordy was home, she was there at Eagleson (Hall) once in a while. But I can't remember much else. I think she was younger than I, and some of the younger women got more acquainted with her than I did.

LT: Thank you. You also knew Esther, his first wife?

ED: What?

LT: You also knew Esther, Gordon's first wife?

ED: Not really. She... during the first part of their relationship, well, I don't know really what that was. But when he was on campus and thinking about what to do, I don't know how much discussion they had amongst themselves at that time. She was just, I would say, a serious Quaker, her father certainly, her parents certainly were. But I don't know much more about her, actually, little contact. Well, the one occasion we had was when they were almost ready to go overseas, and they were living in a little housing unit put out by the city, you know, a low-cost housing, and we did go to see them. Well, I think one of the kids ran away or something disastrous like that. [Laughs] And one had the impression that she didn't have much control of them. That would have been difficult in any case, at any time, actually, older also. But when Gordy was on the island, Esther was --

LT: McNeil Island?

ED: Hmm?

LT: McNeil Island?

ED: Yeah. I assume that Esther would have still been the mother at that point, and she didn't quit, until she divorced him in 1950-something or other, what was the date? Better look it up. She divorced him because she fell in love with an airplane instructor, that's what I heard, anyway, but I'm not sure that that lasted very long.

LT: Gordon's... Esther and Susan, they were not Japanese Americans.

ED: Esther and Susan?

LT: Yeah, neither one of them was a Japanese American. So I'm wondering, so his, both of his wives were white Americans.

ED: Uh-huh. Well, it must have been a difficult life for the kids. No way other ways you can see it.

LT: Did he date Japanese Americans as well?

ED: Did what?

LT: Did he date Japanese Americans as well?

ED: Did he do what?

LT: Did he date Japanese Americans as well?

ED: I don't know.

LT: Okay, that's okay.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2014 Densho. All Rights Reserved.