<Begin Segment 11>

LT: During the rest of his life...

ED: What?

LT: During the rest of his life, Gordon spent most of his time outside the United States.

ED: Yeah, after the trial.

LT: Right. He graduated from college, and he taught sociology at the university level.

ED: Office of what?

LT: And he taught at the university level.

ED: Yeah.

LT: So he taught in Beirut, Lebanon, and Cairo, Egypt, and then in Alberta, Canada.

ED: That's where he wound up.

LT: So he spent the bulk of his academic career...

ED: Well, he taught in the Middle East, and three or four universities in the Middle East. That's not Alberta.

LT: So after graduating, he spent his life outside the United States. Was that deliberate?

ED: Stupid?

LT: Was it happenstance?

ED: Well, I don't think it was. I don't recall that he had really serious problems as a result. Maybe for his family. But he had academic friends who supported his ideas and supported his choice of where to go. And he stopped to see us occasionally when he came home, and I don't recall his speaking about it as a particularly difficult thing. He may have said something about maybe that was not a good academic idea, but I don't remember it now. He did develop a great group of friends with the Quakers, did quite a bit with them, did a lot of speaking for them. And what else? The Quakers... well, of course, academically he had to have good contacts, and I assume he did. But there must have been a few who thought he was a nut, but he did have, as I recall, when he was first here, before he went overseas, I think there was academic criticism. I don't remember what it was, but I just remember that there was some. But he seemed to do very well. And I can't remember, when did he and his wife get married? I don't remember. Before they went over -- well, it would have been before they went overseas, I'm sure, because the children were born before then, I think. We went to visit -- including my parents, went to visit them at the little Housing Authority house they were living in before they were going overseas.

LT: In Seattle?

ED: Yeah. Well, I can't help but admire Esther a bit, that was a tough time. I never knew her, but I'm sure it was difficult with four kids, taking them overseas, different language. I suppose she had some local help, would have had to. But nevertheless, a difficult time.

LT: So they chose a difficult route of going overseas and learning other languages as opposed to remaining in this country.

ED: They what?

LT: So they chose to go overseas as opposed to living in this country.

ED: Oh, yeah, that's right. Grew up quite differently. I don't think I would have liked that, though. [Laughs] But Gordy persevered, and I don't know how much choice he had of a different academic situation, I have no idea whether there was something he could have picked that would have been easier. Didn't have those conversations with him at that time. When he came back to the States to visit, he visited us whenever he could, and he and Charlie talked a lot about academics and --

LT: Charlie your husband.

ED: -- problems involved and so forth.

LT: I'm thinking about what you said about Gordon's father being very quiet, and his mother being quiet but learning to speak out. And then here is their son --

ED: What?

LT: And then here is their son who takes a stand to defy a curfew, and chooses to speak out about that. How do you think that happened? Where did that come from?

ED: [Laughs] Well, I think there was a lot of surprise and support from the community, support that she had not expected. And the Quaker community, too, gave them a lot of support, which probably surprised her.

LT: How do you think a young man like Gordon, who was raised in a family where his parents were quiet and didn't, and were not outspoken, where do you think that came from?

ED: The what?

LT: Where do you think that came from, to have the courage to take a stand and speak out?

ED: Well, somewhat the Quaker touch, and his willingness to, well, all the time in jail, he was involved with other guys who spent time in jail, and he had to have learned something about that from the men that, they weren't all just jailgoers, they were others who were, had a position, too. And it was an amazing experience for him, I'm sure. But he was ready for it, I think.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2014 Densho. All Rights Reserved.