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BN: We're at the Japanese Cultural Center of Hawaii with Jane Komeiji on Monday, April 23, 2012. Fitting that we're in the gallery that Jane was part of the team that put together almost twenty years ago, hard to believe. But we're gonna start with... we're gonna do a life history, kind of a little bit of a focus on the war years, so we're gonna start first at the beginning. And we almost always start by asking, starting to ask about parents and family. So if you can start, maybe you could tell us about your parents, their names and if you know their dates of birth and where they came from.

JK: I was born in Honolulu in the Makiki area. And the house in which I was born still stands today, and (that's) a long time ago. My father Kojiro Okamoto came from Yamaguchi-ken, Oshima-gun, Ihota, where, I understand, that the people who were soliciting workers first went (to) because it was a very poor village. My mother came from Hiroshima-ken, and they met in Hawaii, actually. Both had been widowed, and they met on their daily walks. My father walked with Mr. Yamashiro, who was his dear friend, of the Yamashiro Hotel, and my mother walked with her two daughters, and the conversation started. And my mom did not think anything about it, and she went back to Japan in 1923 at the time of the Tokyo earthquake. So they had to land in Kobe. She took her daughters to her family home, and the father said, "We'll help you take care of them, and perhaps you can get married in the village." Well, soon a letter comes from my father asking her to return. And my grandfather said, "Go if you want to." So that's how she came back, leaving her two daughters in Japan with her parents, and married my father. Their first house was in Makiki, and that's where I was born on July 7, 1925. [Laughs] Which makes me almost eighty-seven years old today.

BN: Just to go back, your father's name again was?

JK: My father's name is Kojiro.

BN: Kojiro.

JK: Yeah, and my mother is Kame, and her maiden name was Kono.

BN: But she was married.

JK: To Okamoto.

BN: But your father's name was Okamoto.

JK: Yes.

BN: But Kono is her...

JK: Maiden name.

BN: But not, you said she had, she was married before.

JK: Her name then was Kurisu. So I have two half sisters in Japan that I visit regularly, and their names were Kurisu before they got married.

BN: Are they related to the Kurisus on the Big Island?

JK: I really don't know, because my father and my mother were only married for six years, and he died very suddenly. So my mother doesn't know too much about it. But it seems to be quite a common name.

BN: That was, was there any... well, you may not know because your father died when he was so young, but I'm wondering as a widow, your mom gave a widower two daughters, if there was any sort of issue with him marrying...

JK: No. My father had been widowed, and he had one daughter who lived in Seattle with him, and he used to bring in... well, his first trip to the Pacific Northwest was taking workers to the salmon canneries in Alaska. Petersburg, Alaska. And then gradually he got away from (that job) and began shipping fish, shrimp and (other seafood) to Otani. I have records of these. And then he began shipping lumber to Hawaii. Eventually he shipped lumber on his own barge to Hawaii. And at that time he stayed at the Yamashiro Hotel. (...) My mother's husband died of tuberculosis after a (year-long) illness, but left her a little store on Beretania Street opposite Aala Park on the Beretania side. And so as they walked in the morning they first nodded and said hello, and then they began talking. My father found out that my mother was a widow. So that's how it all began.

BN: So did your father go to Washington first before coming to Hawaii?

JK: No, he came to Hawaii first, to the Hamakua Coast. It was not very much after that, that he opened a big, almost a block long store in Ola'a, ten miles, and I have a photo of that. And at that time, he used his mother's name. I think it's because he ran away. He must have run away from the plantation. He used the name of Yoshio Hamada. Hamada is his mother's name, and Yoshio, all the Hamadas had their names begin with Yoshi. And the person I know in Oshima-gun today is Yoshiaki. So he had to change his name.

BN: And then from here he went to...

JK: Then after that Big Island thing, he went to the Pacific Northwest.

BN: Do you know how long he would have been there?

JK: I don't know. I've had to piece these things together by looking at photos. And fortunately, he labeled his photos and put the dates on. So I've been able to kind of roughly gauge where he was and what he did. My mother says her marriage was very satisfying, but it was only a six year marriage. So by the time she takes care of the kids and stuff -- and we had four, there were four of us, and I'm the oldest. (She didn't ask him about many of his earlier life.)

BN: What year did they get married?

JK: Well, I was born in 1925. They married in June of 1924, and I came in July of 1925.

BN: You mentioned you were the oldest of the four.

JK: I'm the oldest.

BN: The other three...

JK: Well, one sister we lost, but my sister who lives in Hawaii today, Maude Takahashi, lives, and my brother died a few years ago.

BN: When you say the other one died...

JK: Okay, one other sister died when she was about ten. She died of complications from measles. But both she and I were taken by my uncle, my father's younger brother, who was a very successful businessman in Hilo, that my mother managed the Honolulu store. He took us home with him. So that until she got adjusted to widowhood. He wanted to help out. So I went to school partly in Hilo.

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BN: Do you remember much about your father?

JK: No, I don't. All I know that I can piece together is what people (have) told me. He was very partial to me. My sister has nice big eyes, I have slits. And so people would say, "What a beautiful child your second daughter is, or (your) third daughter." And he would say, "You look at the pictures of Japanese beauties," he said, "none of them have big brown eyes, they all have slits like my oldest daughter." Very partial. I have that kind of stories that people have told me. He carried me wherever he could.

BN: You were only six.

JK: I was four and a half when he died. So I have very, just vague memories.

BN: What did he die of?

JK: I had the doctor read (his death certificate, and) it seems something to do with the gallbladder after surgery. It was a short illness of two weeks. This is 1930.

BN: So here your mother was twice a widow.

JK: Yeah, two times a widow. And so I asked her, "Why didn't you get married again?" She says she doesn't have luck with men. [Laughs]

BN: You mentioned the two sisters, the two half sisters in Japan, but you mentioned your father also had a family.

JK: My father had a daughter, and she was with him in Alaska when his first wife died. He buried her there. (...) His daughter married a Shinpei Nagao who was, at that time, already a graduate of Doshisha. He manufactured shoyu in Seattle. And I missed seeing (my sister) by six months when I went to the mainland in '52.

BN: So they settled and lived...

JK: Yeah, all on the mainland. One daughter, my niece, who is a year older than me, came to live with us. She was an exchange teacher at McKinley High School for the year.

BN: This is much later.

JK: Yeah, after the war. She came out (...) of camp and went to college, and then got a job at McKinley.

BN: So how much older, then, was the...

JK: My father and my mother were twenty years apart. And my mother was thirty something when I was born, (and) my father was fifty-six. That age I remember.

BN: When you were born?

JK: When I was born. So you can see how proud and happy he was. [Laughs]

BN: To have kind of a second chance for a family.

JK: Yeah.

BN: What did they do initially after they got married and settled down?

JK: Okay, my father was a lumber merchant using his own barge to bring lumber by the time my mother met him. Lumber from the Pacific Northwest to sell here as well as a contractor. So he built houses. He used to go out to the Waialua site. He built our house, our family home in Kaimuki, as well as two other homes on the same (lot). He had bought the whole hillside and built houses there. (...) He died in 1930, so that was in the '20s that he did that. He was way ahead of his time, I think.

BN: Then he suddenly passes away and leaves your mom with four very young children?

JK: Yeah, this is the story that I got. He was asked by some relatives to go to the police station to report that one of their daughters had run away with a Chinese man. So he had to go and report that to the police station. And he went back to the family to tell them that, "This is what I did already. Police will help you find her." And then naturally they drank osake, and then he went home (to) Kaimuki, Sixteenth Avenue, 1536 Sixteenth Avenue. And he told my mother, "Is the ofuro hot?" He said he was just shivering. And she said, "Yes, it is," so he went in, took a real deep (soaking), but by the morning he was in the hospital. Something to do with the gallbladder or kidney or something around there, an acute case, according to my doctor, who read the death certificate for me.

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BN: And then at that point is when you and... was it a brother or sister who went to...

JK: My sister and I went to... yeah, after the funeral my uncle said, "You manage the store until you get on your feet, I'll take the two older children with me, home with me, and I'll take care of them."

BN: Now the store is...

JK: My mother managed the store. People think she owned it, but it was my uncle and my aunt who opened the Honolulu store as a branch store of the main store in Hilo.

BN: And the store, what was the name of the store?

JK: Hawaii Importing Company. And it was, my mother (who) built it up to be the leading store, dry goods store in the then Territory of Hawaii. She retired in 1952, I believe. Liberty House used to come and check on what she's (selling), Musashiya used to check, they all used to come and check to see what she was ordering and (what) she was selling.

BN: Now was she managing that store before your father passed away?

JK: She worked a little bit in the store but not too much. But she actually co-managed it with Mr. Hino who ran Fashions by Hino later in the Ala Moana Shopping Center when it came out.

BN: So it was really after your father passed away.

JK: That she managed it. Because my uncle wanted to be sure that my mother had a means of supporting her family. So I owe much to my uncle.

BN: So she was really able to fall back a little on...

JK: Yeah, she was a sharp cookie, really sharp and business oriented.

BN: Now, the store, the location of the store was?

JK: The store was located in the Aala Rengo building on North King Street opposite Aala Park.

BN: And that was, do you know when it started there?

JK: It started as the J Fukuda Store, and I know that because I have (their) clothes hangers. And my uncle eventually bought out J Fukuda Store. I don't know the year. But if my mother started working off and on or helping out before 1930, they must have bought it before 1930. My uncle and his wife were very astute business people. My father had all kinds of ideas, but my mother said he was a poor money manager. [Laughs] So she said, "If I were married to him when he was doing all his entrepreneurial work," she said, "you would have been a daughter of a millionaire. But sorry, you're not." [Laughs]

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BN: Tell me a little more about the uncle. What was his name?

JK: My uncle was Uncle Eikichi Nakamoto, and his surname is different because he went as yoshi to the Nakamoto family. His wife's name was Mina, M-I-N-A. She comes from a pretty rich family; Okamoto family is very poor. So he, by the time I went to Hilo, that's in 1930, they were quite successful. And they used to live six months in Japan and six months in Hawaii. While in Japan, he would say that, he and Mina-san would say that they're buying for the store, and they would ship merchandise (...) sold at our store -- I am very possessive, because, you know, it's our store -- but it belonged to them, really. They ordered all the Japanese merchandise, and then locally, my mom purchased the merchandise from the jobbers here in town.

BN: Where was the store in Hilo?

JK: The Hilo store was across from Mooheau Park on Kamehameha Avenue. It was the main drag in Hilo.

BN: And then you said after the funeral, your sister went with...

JK: The sister, yeah. He took us home with him, and I went to Japanese school and English school, Hilo Union School, and I went through kindergarten, first grade. And in the middle of the second grade year I was sent back to Honolulu. My sister stayed for another year. She was a year younger than me, so she came back a year later.

BN: Do you remember anything about your time in Hilo? You were still young.

JK: Yes. I remember the time that we had to stand in line at Japanese school, and I was horsing around and I fell on the concrete walk. There was a broken segment, and I cut my jaw. And I didn't want to be scolded, so I wiped it up, cleaned it, and I went home as though nothing happened. Word had already gotten home, because they were very good friends with the principal.

BN: Which Japanese school?

JK: Dokuritsu Gakkou, Shinoda-sensei. Yeah, I really got it that time. [Laughs]

BN: Did your uncle and auntie have their own children?

JK: She had two, but one had died early and she had a daughter, Misaye. And Misaye was -- whom I called Oneechan all the while that she lived -- and she married Taro Honda who became a Taro Nakamoto. He went as yoshi. And they were my oniichan and oneechan, and they were my surrogate parents when I lived in Hilo. So they would take me to school on the first day and saw that I did my homework and all that kind of stuff.

BN: So they were a lot older.

JK: Oh, yes. Even her daughter tells me, "Jane, my mother lights up only when you come to Hilo," because she remembers the olden days. She had suffered a stroke, so she wasn't that well.

BN: And then you mentioned after a couple years, you came back.

JK: Yeah. In the midst of my second grade year, so I came back and went to Robello school in Palama, and Miss Chung was my teacher. And then I went on to Kaiulani school.

BN: You were living in Kaimuki before...

JK: No, at that time we were living in town above the store.

BN: The Kaimuki house was...

JK: Kaimuki house was rented out at that time because my mother had to work downstairs. She did not drive. And taking the streetcar would have been a burden because streetcar stopped at Twelfth Avenue, and we were on Sixteenth Avenue. So we stayed above the store. And that's why I went to school there, (Kaiulani), that's the one time (...) school, in my whole career, that I got slapped on my hand. Mrs. Maka'a, my third grade teacher, had said, "Nobody is to come into the classroom at recess." But I forgot my juice money, so I went in to get it and she caught me. Take out (your) hand. [Laughs]

BN: Did your family speak Japanese?

JK: Okay, my mother spoke Japanese, and so even during the war when we were not supposed to speak Japanese. Outside I would never speak Japanese, but when I got home, it was Japanese.

BN: How was your Japanese?

JK: (Pretty good). And it was that way because my mother had to discuss certain things, crucial things, "What shall I do?" especially during the war, with me. Because I'm her oldest, I had to be able to communicate more than, "I went to school today."

BN: And then did you go to Japanese school?

JK: I went to Japanese school, and I was in... wait, what grade? Sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth grade when the war broke out. All the while I went to school.

BN: And after that?

JK: No. I did take Japanese in college, but that was more academic. But the community spoke Japanese, and the community really supported me. Everybody spoke Japanese in that Aala Rengo building, the Issei people. And we were just one big family.

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BN: Maybe this a good time to talk about Aala, which was kind of a Japanese retail cluster. I know you have a lot of fond memories about...

JK: Oh, yes. I like to argue with... and I've argued with people from Moilili (who used to say) that they were the business, Japanese business community. I said, "Uh-huh, Aala was the central focus." People would come to Aala to shop for their bigger purchases, more expensive purchases. At that time people used to give New Year's gifts. So, oh, we were busy then. They would come by taxi. The rural runs had taxis for fifty cents a ride, and they would park on Aala Street and then they would walk across. Well, they would come to Aala to go to the movies because there were, at one time, two theaters, and they were both on Aala Street. But when they come out, it's not often that they came out, they made their purchases, (bought) chestnuts at Amaguri Taro and take that into the movie house. And then the train from the Waianae coast would come in; here again we have that influx. The windward people came to the taxi stand on Pauahi Street adjacent to River Street. So it was a convenient meeting place for people from all over the island to come to shop. So I think we were, to me -- this is prejudicial -- but we were the shopping center. And one of the persons who lived there and whose father had a store there, Mrs. Uyeda of Uyeda shoe store, says we were the first shopping center before Ala Moana came up.

BN: So what was it like as a child growing in this kind of busy...

JK: Yeah, it was a very cohesive community. Everybody cared for everybody else's children. For example, we never had a car, but the Awamuras of Heiwa-do, Maggie Inouye's father, had a car. And so when it poured and rained, the car would come, and automatically we'd jump in the car. And my mother would know that Awamuras went to pick up the kids at Japanese school. So that kind of community spirit. We (played) at each other's houses, we ate in the storage areas of each other's houses, upstairs of the store. And oh, it was a thrill to be asked to go to the furoya, bathhouse, which was located on Beretania Street. The Iwaharas did that, so we'd each get this (little) tub, soap, and towel, and change of clothes and walk to the furoya when asked. The rest of us had bathtubs at home.

BN: So all of these families pretty much are merchants who had the store...

JK: They were all merchants, yeah.

BN: ...the family lived above or behind. These are the kids that you...

JK: And then they took care of all of us. I think there was a great spirit of community. And for me, I never felt, "Oh, I don't have a father."

BN: You had a lot of fathers.

JK: Yes. And they really took good care. I'm grateful for that.

BN: Were all the families Japanese?

JK: There was one family that was Chinese, and that's the Hong family that ran the candy shop. We played together, but outside of just playing together, when they talk about Aala Rengo, that store was never included. They made their candies upstairs, and you'd get to taste them when you go upstairs, or even when you go in the store, (we'd) open the bin. [Laughs]

BN: What were some of the other businesses in Aala Rengo?

JK: Okay, we had Amaguri Taro, which had roasted chestnuts. They roasted them in the back of the store, they had a big (equipment), I don't know what you'd call it, it turned over black sand. And so we would help to wash the chestnuts, which had been stored in cold storage someplace nearby, and wash those and dry them, and then put them into the black sand. And the thing would churn. And then you put ame on it. And they had these cute little bags, red cross stitch, and with a boy coming out of a chestnut, and it's a string thing. It was fun helping. It was also filling. [Laughs]

BN: So they were able to survive? That was basically all they sold?

JK: Well, they sold other Japanese goodies like osenbe and things. And then there was... well, first, coming from my side, which was closer to the river, this Nuuanu stream, was the drugstore on the corner, Akahoshi Drug. And they sold not only drugs, but they sold liquor, and they sold newspapers. Most of us didn't subscribe to the Star-Bulletin (although we) advertised, but (did not). And then (our store) and we had a double store. Other people had one, but we had double. And then next door, everybody bought shoes at Lion shoe store, which changed ownership many times. Sato Clothiers, who also lived upstairs, Kobayashi dry goods, and they sold yardage like we did. But Mrs. Kobayashi also ran a sewing school. So the upstairs was partly a sewing school, and the girls would come down and buy things. And then we had Pacific Woolen, which used to be the Okazaki Tailor. And Toshiko Okazaki who's gone now, but she helped work on this (JCCH) gallery, too. And her sister, and they were much older than us. And then the Pacific Woolen took over. (Later) the Kandas (took) over. I believe there is a store someplace in Pawaa (now) that used to be Morikubo Tailors, Pacific Woolen. But I don't know whether it exists today. And then there was the candy, Hong's candy shop, and then an alleyway. In the back of the stores, the whole length of the building, the same width, was the Aala Market (with) the Otanis... this was all Oahu Railway land. So the buildings were leased, both ours and the back. And then Amaguri Taro, and then next to that was Heiwa-do Jewelry, Maggie Inouye's family, and they sold jewelry and pens and (those kinds of things). And next door was Aloha Curio, Kawanos. And Hideo Kawano later became independent, he became a stockbroker. And then a store next to that which changed hands many, many times. A Chinese family at one time had it, they sold dry goods, and then it became a shoe store, Takara-san. And Takara-san also manufactured shoes and slippers on site. He later took over our (space) when Hawaii Importing quit. He took over that double space to do the manufacturing. And then the Iwaharas' store, which (...) at one time even had groceries. They had hardware. It was during the war a very good location because the people from Pearl Harbor would come by train, and (when) they needed something, they stopped there. And then around the corner was Haseyama Tailor, which came in very late. And beyond that, in a separate building was Asahi Furniture, and that's where my husband's family had their business.

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BN: Many of the businesses, maybe most of them had Japanese names. Yours did not.

JK: The what?

BN: Had Japanese names.

JK: Oh, yeah, the community spoke Japanese.

BN: But I'm wondering, yours...

JK: Oh, we had a Japanese name, too, Hawaii Yunyuu Gaisha. It's a direct translation of importing, yunyuu, and that name came from Hilo.

BN: What did the sign say? Was it Hawaii Importing?

JK: Both. And then a triangle with HIC. [Laughs]

BN: What other kinds of products did you sell at your store?

JK: Well, in dry goods, we sold a lot of yardage. I think at one time, Cohn Hall Marx, a manufacturer, a high-end manufacturer of fabrics, said we sold the most in the nation (...). And so it was. We had people like haole dressmakers and dress shops (buy fabrics). They would make it (into dresses) for you. The lady would come and shop at our store, or Mr. Hino would, sometimes, when she says, "I can't come, do you have this and this?" And he says, "Well, let me bring it up to you." So I remember going with him (to Alakea Street) -- she later relocated to Waikiki -- and going with him to take rolls of fabrics and showing it to her and she would make her purchases there.

BN: Is this because you had fabrics that only you had?

JK: Yeah, we had high-end fabrics, of course, just the (ordinary) kind, too, but somehow the ordering was very good. And people used to come and look over to see, businesspeople used to come and check to see what we were selling so that they could sell the same kinds of things. I think we were the leaders in the field. Of course, I'm prejudiced. When my mother retired in 1952, the man from Musashiya (which) later relocated to Ala Moana Center, came and thanked her for retiring. He said, "Now I can lift my head up. Until then (I) couldn't do that."

BN: Were most of the fabrics from Japan?

JK: I would say one-third was from Japan, and that involved kimono that were made or that were ready to be made, obi, slippers, and little purses and little stuff that you stick in (your hair). For weddings people used to, at that time, wear both a kimono and a wedding gown, so they would come to buy that. Or they had what's called a yuino, a betrothal gift, and they would come and buy things (for that). So the Japanese goods sold very well, but I think we were more famous for our yardage. Two-thirds of the store was in yardage. Some of them were on bolts, others were on rolls, and still others, like, velvet, was on a little winding thing.

BN: And those, were those imported then from the mainland?

JK: From the mainland. There were people here, jobbers, who came to show samples. And my mother, Mr. Hino, and when they could, the other clerks (chose the fabrics). The clerks, the men stayed a long time. I grew up with them. When I went to school and I needed help (with) my lesson, a Nisei fellow who worked at the store would look over my work. Japanese school, my mother would look over, Mr. Hino would look over. So there was a kind of family feeling in the store. We used to go camping together. After closing the store at ten o'clock (on Saturday nights, we would) drive over to the windward side, and they would make sukiyaki at twelve-o'clock. So it was a very good time for me.

BN: How much did you help out at the store?

JK: From the time I was about thirteen or fourteen I could help. And I learned how to measure yardage, to cut yardage, punch the cash register. I could do all of that. And so when it was busy, we helped. But even before that, when we were young kids, when we had remnant sales two times a year. My sister, my brother and I would be on the mezzanine floor watching. Because when you opened the door, the people just came rushing in, and they just (swept the remnants off) the counters. And just to see that nobody walks out, we were stationed there.

BN: So it sounded like this business was pretty successful.

JK: It was.

BN: Did you have that sense growing up...

JK: Yes.

BN: ...that your family was doing pretty well?

JK: Yeah. And because everybody worked as a community, I never felt deprived. I really am grateful for all of that kind of experiences. I had many eyes watching me. [Laughs] And we would, for example, during the summer months, George of the Amaguri Taro would go up and down the alley in the back, and he would whistle, that means, "Come out." And we would all go to Aala Park at five o'clock in the morning to play softball. Very fond memories. New Year's time, we would burn firecracker right in the alleyway. Everybody got together and stayed out there. And even during the war, we all gathered at the upstairs of Asahi Furniture. We would play card games, we would talk stories, big arguments sometimes. And then we had dancing, because the boys went to the Y to learn dancing. Very happy days for me.

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BN: Tell me a little more about your mother, just her personality and...

JK: Okay. My mother was not only a very business-wise, smart woman, but she was a very compassionate person. We used to have people who came to the store, and (poured) out their problems. She helped people adopt children, she helped, like nakoudo for marriages. Although she would never stand up front, but she would help them at the very beginning. She did a lot of that kind of service, because people trusted her. And, of course, in the business world, she was (...) competitive. But much respected. She was the only daughter in a family of... five boys. And the three before her died before one year, so they thought she wouldn't live. So they did not put her in the koseki touhon until they were sure. So her official birth date is not her real birth date. It's a year afterwards. She was born to a (much respected) family, Konos, (who) were primarily soldiers (with) the Heike group. And when the Heike lost to the Minamotos, they disbanded. That's how they got into this village in Hiroshima. But looking at the property, my cousin's wife (who) was very learned about Japanese history and was a (...) schoolteacher (...) in Tokyo. She said, "Looking at the location of the property and the size of the hill behind it, she says, "You can tell that they were leaders." And there was a shrine in the village that could not have its festivities begin until a delegation came down and got the head of household of the Kono family, and they all marched (to the shrine, only then could) the festivities (...) begin. So they were quite substantial. My mother never talked about any of this; I found this out much later. She came out (to Hawaii seeking) adventure. She had heard from a distant relative who had come to Hawaii earlier and had gone back (...) -- glorious stories. And so she told her father, "I want to go." Very adventuresome.

BN: Did you have discussions with her where you had a sense of what her hopes for you and for your siblings were? Would she ever tell you, "I want you to do..."

JK: No. Never told us what we should become, but at the same time, whatever we chose to become, she was very supportive. When later in life -- and she stayed with me until she had to go to the Hale Pulama, (a care home), I used to sit down with her after breakfast and talk. We would feed the birds, and (because of the glass window), we could see the birds feeding, and she and I would talk. And I asked her one time, "Oh, you had a very hard life, didn't you?" She says, "No." And I said, "But look, Papa died early, before (that) Kurisu-san died and you had those two girls. (...) You married again, and Papa died early. And she says, yeah, but when she looks back on her life, she said she's had a good life, particularly because each one of us succeeded in what we wanted to do. I became a teacher, my sister was a home economist, and my brother became a lawyer and a CPA. She says, "I can't ask for..." and we never committed crimes. [Laughs] So she says it was all very worth it, but she never feels that she sacrificed a lot, but she did. She was an outstanding woman, a woman before her time, yeah. Because at the time that she began managing the store, Japanese women, they may have (helped in their) Mom and Pop stores (...) but never an established, big firm that people from all over the islands came to. My son (who) was asked to write about his life, (he asked me to read it). And I said, "You're not writing about yourself, you're writing about Grandma and me." And he said, "But I am what I am because of you guys." He was very much influenced by his grandmother.

BN: Did they know her?

JK: Well, she lived with me... she lived with my sister for many years, and then she lived with me towards the end of her life. And so the kids knew her.

BN: So she lived long enough to get to know the grandkids.

JK: Yes. She died at ninety-six, which was really ninety-seven. They registered her birth (a year later).

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

BN: Were there other kinds of formal activities in Aala? Were there sports leagues and kenjinkai or Buddhist church activities?

JK: Okay. My mother never participated in kenjinkai things. But we had the Aala Rengo group, and we had picnics, we had New Year's parties and that kind of thing.

BN: That almost functioned a little like a kenjinkai in some ways.

JK: Yeah, it's just like that, the Aala. And there was a baseball league that was formed by Parks and Recreation that we played (at) the park. We went swimming, and I didn't go in, actually, but at Pier 16 when the boats and tugs were out. The kids all jumped in and went swimming. My mother wouldn't allow that, but I could watch it, touch my toes in the water. [Laughs]

BN: Were the other merchants in Aala from the same part of Japan or were they pretty randomly...

JK: Most of them were Hiroshima, I think. Yeah.

BN: Because I remember reading Vicky Gokimura's work about in the Issei period. There were stereotypes about people from Hiroshima are like this, shrewd business people (...). Were you aware of that?

JK: Not at that time. But Hiroshima, Yamaguchi were the merchants.

BN: The merchants, right. They were kind of dominant in terms of just numbers.

JK: Yes, they were.

BN: Given that Aala, among other things, was known as kind of this theater, movie theater district, growing up there, did you and your friends get to go all the time?

JK: Well, my mother was too busy working to really go to the theater, and therefore my family didn't go as much, as often (as other families). But I remember going to the Park Theater, Nihonkan at that time and the Honolulu Za (...). Both were (right) on Aala Street. And later we got the, that other theater on... gee, I forgot the name. It was a fancy Consolidated Theater -- (Toyo Theater). And then the Kokusai came in. But my mother-in-law and Mrs. Kawano went every week to the movie, and their children went more frequently than I did.

BN: My mom remembers going every week.

JK: Every week. It was a big deal.

BN: And you're very much a townie. Did you know kids from the plantations?

JK: Only when I started college, or, in fact, yeah, that's when I got to be friends with people from Wahiawa. And I still, they're still some of my best friends.

BN: But at the time you were growing up...

JK: No.

BN: Your group is...

JK: My group is all downtown people. And so I remember telling Michi Nishimoto (of the UH Oral History Project), "All you do is interview plantation people and I feel left out." And so she says, "Okay, you want me to do (one on) Aala?" I said, "Sure." She said, "That's only if you (...) help me."

BN: That's how that (project) started. No, you're right. The plantation narrative is pretty common.

JK: That's right.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

BN: The other thing, before we jump to the war, the other thing I was going to ask you about was being, you're growing up in kind of this, almost this bubble, it sounds like, of Aala.

JK: Yes.

BN: Did you have any sense of, both being a girl and being Japanese, any sense of limits of what you would be able to do in life?

JK: No. I think that pattern was set by my mom. Because she was doing something that men usually do at that time, so she was my model, and she was very open. And she says, "You choose whatever you want to do or become, and we'll see to it." Well, in that sense, I have to say that when my father died, my uncle offered her half of the Honolulu store and she turned it down. She said it took her two weeks to argue about it with my uncle, who was very appreciative of what my father had done for him. And so she says, "Okay, if that's the case," and this is 1930, she says, "Give me five thousand dollars up front, and I will use it to educate my children." And that's why all three of us -- because (one) sister had died by then -- went to private schools. My sister and I went to the Priory, and my brother went to Iolani, and all of us went through college.

BN: That was from the time you were growing up, was it kind of understood that you were going to be going to college?

JK: Well, it was understood that I'm going (beyond high school). And now, if I set the pattern here, I'll just have to do that, too. She valued education, and she resented the fact, very much so, that she could not go on to higher education. She went to about the sixth grade, (when) fourth grade was the standard. So she went a little above (other girls), but her brothers all became teachers or writers, and she couldn't. She resented that very much. So in her commitment to education, it was male or female, same thing. You would have enjoyed interviewing her.

BN: Was that, I mean, was that unusual at the time?

JK: Oh, yeah. Because in many families, everybody pitched in to put the oldest son through college. But in my family, the son was at the bottom, so I got to go (first).

BN: Was your family religious?

JK: She was a Buddhist, belonged to Jodoshu, and I remember every morning and every night sitting before the altar, and we prayed. She prayed and we just sat there waiting for it to get over because my legs hurt. [Laughs] And we went to the temple on certain memorial days and that kind of thing. We were not in Jodoshu Sunday school or anything. In fact, because I went to Hongwanji Japanese school, I was more involved in the Hongwanji choir and all of that... but that was when I was a little older.

BN: When did you start at the Priory?

JK: I started at the Priory at eighth grade.

BN: And was there a collision there between...

JK: No. She just said, "You go." And fortunately the school was located -- I went to Central Intermediate, and then I went right across the street to the Priory.

BN: But I mean religion-wise?

JK: No, they did not... we went to chapel every day, but they did not try to proselytize.

BN: So there were a lot of other kids.

JK: There were many who were not Protestants, or Episcopalians. But we did go (to) chapel every day with our little veils, because at that time they wouldn't let you in the chapel without a veil. It was the days of Father Bray, whom we worshiped.

BN: Were there a lot of other Japanese?

JK: Yes, there were quite a few Japanese, Chinese, and there were a lot of old Episcopal families, (people) with six ethnicities, and they'd say, "You cannot be one only, Jane." I'd say, "Yeah, I'm only Japanese." And they'd name off one, two, three, four, five six (ethnicities).

BN: And then the last thing I wanted to ask you before we kind of jump into the war was, I know your husband, future husband also grew up in Aala, furniture business.

JK: Well, the thing is, I did not know him, or I had not even seen him until the war broke out. And then when we began to get together at his house, they cleared one part of the... you know, the inventory was getting lower and lower, and they had storage of furniture upstairs. And as the inventory got lower, they were able to open up a room and that's when we met. That's when I met him.

BN: But when you were smaller, you didn't know each other.

JK: No. He didn't exist. [Interruption] Never saw him before. But I was very good friends with one of his sisters who was a year older than I was.

BN: How old was he relative to you?

JK: He was three years older than me.

BN: Which when you were a kid was a lot.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

BN: Okay, I'm going to jump to the wartime now. Well, I guess first of all, before the war, was there, do you remember there being discussion or concern?

JK: Yes. I remember talks about the war, but the thing that's most vivid is there were representatives from the Japanese government, and representatives from the State Department talking in Washington, D.C. Therefore I could not believe that war had broken out, because they were still talking as far as I knew. And you don't... while you're negotiating, you don't go to battle usually, but that's what happened in this case, and I could not believe it.

BN: How did you hear about what happened? Did you see, did you actually see things?

JK: Okay. That was a Sunday morning, and I used to go to calligraphy class (on) Sunday mornings before going to (the) temple. The calligraphy class was on Nuuanu across from Kawananakoa school. And so it was just a short walk to the temple. And as I was walking with... I don't know who was with me, there were two of us, and this Hawaiian boy said, "Hey, war." I said, "No try fool me." And he said, "Yeah, look behind. Pearl Harbor burning." And I looked behind and I did see smoke. I said, "No, cannot be." I said, "(That's) some house on fire." But when I got to Sunday school, the kids weren't there already. There were only the choir members there, and I said, "What happened?" They said, "War." And so I went to borrow the phone and called my mom and said, "I understand there's a war, so please do not leave our living quarters. I'll be right home." I came out of that office and (one of the boys) said, "Who wants to go to Pearl Harbor to look at (the fire)?" Oh, we all jumped into his car and we went to Pearl Harbor. Did I catch it when I got home. But I did see Pearl Harbor burning. Battleship row was all black smoke, and I was so disappointed. Fire means reds and yellows, a little blue. I saw that at the River Street fire and I thought, "Oh, shucks, only black." I didn't know that oil burned black. So that's when it hit me. It really hit me as we were driving home, and we had to pass through Kalihi, and we were on King Street. Passing through Kalihi and then Palama and came to Aala, no more cars all along the way. And Aala, there's no cars. And I thought, "Oh, must be real." And that's when the fact that it was a real war hit me. I personally did not see the hinomaru, but some of the guys at the temple said they saw it. But you know, I'm in disbelief. "That cannot be, they're negotiating now." I think it's more I wish that there wouldn't be a war.

BN: So when you drove to Pearl Harbor, no one stopped you?

JK: Well, we actually drove to a peninsula in Kalihi. And I don't know how the guy knew where to go, but Battleship Row was clearly visible. But that was where in the back of us was an all fenced-in area, and leprosy patients were there. (...) From there, (they) shipped to Molokai. But we saw them there and we watched from there. But at that time, the impact of it was, I didn't think I was looking at a world-shaking event.

BN: You were how old?

JK: Sixteen.

BN: Sixteen.

JK: So I knew enough, but yet not (...) enough.

BN: So what happened? I mean, you go and you come back...

JK: Oh, I got hell. [Laughs] I've never seen my mother as angry, before that and after that. She said, "How dare you?" She had been waiting for me to come home, because I said I'd be right home. And that afternoon was spent (listening to the radio) -- very little news of anything. (...) The only things issued were police reports, so we turned to the police band, and then you hear rumors or maybe actual happenings about town. And so those were the only things that gave you an idea of what was happening. You feel, I felt kind of, really isolated. Things are happening around me and I don't know what's happening. And then that night, I don't think any of us slept. But it didn't help that one of our clerks in the store, a young man, Yoshida-san, came late in the afternoon and he said, "You don't have a man in the house." My brother is young, so he said, "I came to stay with you folks. In case of an emergency, I can help you. So then what does he do? He tells us about the funeral pyre, that he had to light the fire for his father's (body) and all this kind of stuff. Didn't help. [Laughs]

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

BN: So what happened in the succeeding days?

JK: Well, okay. Next morning, my mom went to the market because she thought, "Well, I'd better have some food." And we never used to eat canned goods, because the market was right behind. You could go every day for fresh fish, fresh beef, fresh vegetables. So she said, "I'd better put in some supplies." She went, and there she heard that two of our neighbors had been taken in on December 7th in the morning. They were successful businessmen, and very active in the community -- Mr. Taichi Sato, and Mr. Taketo Iwahara. And then I thought, "Hmm. My mom was a successful businesswoman, she had also been the president of the Fujinkai, the women's group at the temple. Are they gonna take her?" Then I worried. I'm the oldest, I got two younger siblings, what am I gonna do? Can I support them? Because obviously we didn't have a big bank account that we could rely on. But I'm only sixteen. Would my uncle let me work in the store and pay me the same as (he) paid my mom? She had years of experience, I have none. And that kind of thing raced through my mind. And then what if they come at night on December 7th? If they came by air as they did in the morning, we have to run downstairs into the store and hide under the counters. But if they landed -- and there was all that fear on December 7th, the night of December 7th of landing, and we were a couple of blocks away from the waterfront. Now, if they were to enter, they would enter through the store. Then we got to find someplace upstairs to hide. I mean, seemingly ridiculous worries, I worried. So it was a long, long night. The streets are all dark and quiet except once in a while you'd hear a speeding car, and then somebody's, "Halt." It's very scary. The first few nights were really very scary nights.

BN: Was there enforced blackout?

JK: Complete blackout. And on Sundays we used to have, at Aala Park, there was a bandstand, and we used to have Filipinos put on programs. I still remember the name, Sally Decoscos (who) used to sing. And you know, no more Sally Decoscos, all quiet. And it's an eerie feeling. And when you hear the word, "Halt, who goes?" It's even worse.

BN: Were the ministers from your temple also...

JK: Well, I didn't know at that time that they had been incarcerated. The first night I didn't know it. Actually, what I heard about was the fellow neighboring merchants had been taken in, and that's what made me worry about my mom.

BN: Did you get visits from FBI?

JK: Well, the ad -- and here again, Mr. Hino, who had worked on the ad, and my mom, were never confronted face to face. They did come to investigate. They just ran upstairs to our living quarters, opened up all the drawers, threw out stuff, left it like that, and left without a word. But they had inquired about the two of them all the neighbors, but they never questioned them directly. 'Cause that ad really provoked them.

BN: Tell us about that.

JK: The ad was an ad that was put into the Star-Bulletin and the Advertiser, and they were two separate papers at that time, a few days before December 7th. And the ad says, "Fashions by the yard," at the top, with a little cloud-like design, and then a listing of the merchandise with their prices. Well, creative minds of people... and I don't want to say it this way, but it must have been some military wives whose husbands were either killed or who had to be deployed, and they figured out the cloud was a message that they would arrive by air. "Fashions," you take away the "F" and it sounds like "actions." "By the yard," Pearl Harbor naval yard. So that they were would be... and prices, anyway, you add the numbers and you come out to seven. So it means on the seventh... and they added up a lot. And then at the end was one that (word) Yippie, and it means banzai. [Laughs] But they investigated all of that, and they found out that they were all registered names, that the manufacturer of the fabrics had... they had registered with (the office in charge), so it wasn't our making. But that kind of stuff caused a lot of traffic into the store, people coming, and people we never saw before coming, mostly haoles. "May I see," some kind of fabric. They named the fabric, and we showed them the fabric and they said, "Thank you," and they walked away without buying (anything). We had a lot of that kind of traffic. And at first, we didn't know. My mom and Mr. Hino didn't know until they heard the neighbors that FBI and the Naval Intelligence (were) asking questions about their patriotism. Both of them were Japanese citizens, ineligible for American citizenship.

BN: But you said they were never questioned directly.

JK: Yeah, but not directed at them face to face.

BN: So Mr. Hino was not picked up either?

JK: No.

BN: When did you actually find out about the interpretation they had...

JK: Well, I got it in detail long after the war. I had some inkling about it and what had happened, and the neighbors told us, "Hey, they came to investigate this and that. I had to put away things that they had searched through and found nothing. So, you know, you can put those two things together. But after the war, I think it was a book, Hawaii's War Years, Gwenfread Allen, and in there the ad is there. Wow, big deal. [Laughs] And then what people said, were saying, made sense. But you know, when you add numbers, you come to any number that you want. When you pick out words Shantussa, for example, was one of the fabrics. It ends in U-S-S-A. So that's the kind of...

BN: It has to mean something.

JK: Yeah. So Tip High, (T ends) in P and (High) begins in H. "Pearl Harbor." [Laughs] It seems funny, but, you know, creative minds.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

BN: So there was this period of shock, very quiet, what kind of transpires in the next days and weeks? Did things slowly kind of come back to normal?

JK: Yeah, although I must say that nobody questioned us directly. People were very supportive, we continued to have, our customer base (which) was primarily Japanese. But at the same time, we had haoles, a lot of haole customers who would bring their dressmakers with them and they would select a pattern and buy the fabric, amount that they needed, etcetera. So they continued to support us. I'm sure there were some who questioned it at the beginning, but we were never shunned. Because in some families where the men were taken away, even the Japanese families would not associate with them for fear of being taken away themselves, but we never experienced that.

BN: Was there, I know some of the businesses changed their names to take out the Japanese names. Did you do any of that, change the sign or anything like that?

JK: Well, I don't know what happened, but we had two names to begin with, Hawaii Importing Company and Hawaii Yunyuu Gaisha. So more use was made of Hawaii Importing Company. But the interesting thing is my mother always (before the war) wore a kimono every day. She had to quickly have dresses made, and then she had a hard time buying shoes because she had extremely narrow feet. And at that time, the shoe stores did not have different (widths), they just (stocked) the middle (widths). And she had high arches, so she suffered. But she could not wear slippers like she used to.

BN: So that was one change.

JK: That's one big change that I noticed.

BN: You mentioned before that she kind of, even though there wasn't a strong pressure to not speak Japanese, that she still...

JK: The customers spoke Japanese, so there was no shame in talking Japanese. But (during) the war, she tried. But, you know, you can't really communicate, and they still talk in Japanese.

BN: What happened with your school? Did school just go on?

JK: School was closed after -- you're talking about schools, right?

BN: Yeah.

JK: Okay. Japanese schools never reopened after that for a long time. I was an adult by the time they reopened. But I was at St. Andrews Priory then, and I think about February we went back to school. And I found that our class size was much smaller. We (had) small classes to begin with, but many of our fellow students were boarders. They had come from the neighbor islands. So the neighbor island people were sent home, and they never came back. And then the Chinese people could go to work at Pearl Harbor. Japanese, nobody would hire us, so we had to go to school. So our graduating class was something like thirty-five. It was small to begin with, but it really shrank.

BN: And for the store, you were able to more or less continuously keep...

JK: Yeah, because we had the selection and the reputation. I think that helped. And the jobbers were (partial to us) because (we) bought a lot before (the war). There was a scarcity of goods because, primarily because of shipping. They would give (us) first crack at (them). So all in all, we were very fortunate under the circumstances.

BN: I've heard some stories that certain businesses actually benefitted from the war in the sense that you had all of these war workers and army military personnel and so forth. Did you get any of that or not so much?

JK: Yeah, we had some. We had sailors coming in with gypsy fortune tellers. They would go (to) Hotel Street. There were lots of gypsy fortune tellers, and they would befriend them. (They were) somebody to talk with. (So the sailors would) bring them to the store and they'd buy yards of yardage because (the gypsies) just wrap (the fabric) around. We had that kind of customers that were different from our usual. But the first day that the store opened, and I think it was the third or fourth day after Pearl Harbor, there was a run on khaki and Indian Head to make blackout curtains, and canvas bags -- to make evacuation bags -- that kind of stuff. I am so grateful that I (was able to live) through such an interesting time without being negatively affected.

BN: And again, some would say, because Aala was its own little world, you had a little bit of buffer, it sounds like.

JK: Well, you know, like the Iwaharas were right across from the railway station, and the guys who needed tools and things, that's the first store and (it was) conveniently located, I think they did (a) booming business, too. I've never asked that question directly. And they had an inventory upstairs. I often used to wonder, "How come the floors don't sink?" Because (their goods were) heavy. And they had stacks and stacks of it.

BN: So were there any sort of incidents in either your store directly or others in Aala in terms of vandals or any of that kind of thing that took place right after Pearl Harbor or during the war?

JK: You know, I can't recall any negative incidences. Not ever being called a "Jap" to my face. And I have not heard, because there were people who were taken in, but that's another story. But the stores themselves were patronized. For one thing, we had the reputation in that Aala building -- all of us -- had good merchandise, not shoddy stuff. And there was that reputation. Nothing real negative that I can think of.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

BN: As the war went on, were you aware of some of the other things that were going on in terms of, well, things like the Emergency Service Committee and things that...

JK: Yeah, we read about them in the papers or heard them over the radio. My mother went to the temple one day -- this is for me a vivid recollection of how families were affected. One of the people, ladies who went to the temple regularly told my mother, "My son is trying to help the Japanese community, but they're calling him inu (dog) and it hurts us so much." It was Masa Katagiri, and he was one of those who were, you know, trying to help the Japanese and interpret policies and things to the Japanese, but because he worked with the military government, people thought (he was) inu. And she cried to my mother. My mother was so upset, she came home and told us the story.

BN: So there was that...

JK: There was some of that, yeah, kind of conflict, but not to my family directly, but still.

BN: Were you also aware of like the 100th Battalion and what was going on with that?

JK: I remember seeing them, and the 100th I was aware of because one of the men was conscripted before the war, and his family ran Aloha Curio. Tet-chan. And Tet-chan was especially dear to me because he was much older but he used to rub my head. He had been educated in Japan, and his brother, younger brother my age was also educated in Japan and he was in Japan. Tet-chan was in Honolulu, so he would rub my head and said, "Oh, Yoshio, Yoshio." So I remember his going to war. And then another guy who was, who used to come when we used to get together in the early days of the war, he volunteered to go with the 442. And when the 442 marched from the train station, I saw them, and then they went on to 'Iolani Palace, and they had to pass through Aala, so I saw them. But then at one point I felt... Tet-chan died, Asaumi died, what is my family doing for the war effort? And I thought about it and thought about it, and then they advertised for the WACs. Well, I have to be the one because my brother is too young. So I told Mr. Hino before telling my mom, "What do you think if I join the WACs?" Oh, he blew his stack. The WACs did not have a good reputation in the Japanese community. They called them... I don't know what the military term for officers... no, omocha. And he said, "Don't you dare consider it. And if you tell your mother, she's going to get sick." So I never volunteered. But I felt guilty.

BN: Were you or your family involved in any other kinds of volunteer efforts?

JK: I did Red Cross bandages, roll, that kind of stuff, yes. I did that kind of thing, but not anything dynamic and earth-shaking. My mother was busy in the store, she was a Japanese alien.

BN: I mean, running your business is kind of tough keeping --

JK: Yeah, it's a full-time job.

BN: And then in its own way, you're contributing to the war effort just by keep society...

JK: Bonds. We used to buy the twenty-five cents war stamps, and filling them up in a book to make eighteen dollars and seventy-five cents, which would give a maturity rate of twenty-five dollars. I don't know where they went. [Laughs]

BN: It'd be worth a lot today. As kind of the war went on, did the tension kind of ease? 'Cause the war also changes, too.

JK: Yeah, I think changes came to our society, (the) Hawaiian community. Changes were coming (to) -- like the domination of the Big Five. But all that accelerated because of the war. Because Big Five was not the (leading) group (now). The military governor (became the leader). So (The Big Five) were subservient to that. But I think... because when I got my permanent. (Then) I looked like a haole. [Laughs] But you cannot change this. [Indicates eye] [Laughs]

BN: You got your first permanent?

JK: Yeah. And there are little things like that that now when I look back, I think, "Oh, how superficial." But they were important at that time. And I got my name, Jane. Oh, no, I got that before that. And my sons can't believe that I would assume the name Jane. Because the teacher said, "Okay, Sachiko is too hard, so you're Jane, you're George, you're Martha," she went right down the row. And John tells me, "And you accepted it? What about your parents?" And it's legalized now, but it's not what my parents gave me.

BN: What did your mother call you?

JK: Sachiko. But if they talked about Jane, she knew whom they were talking about. And if, even today, when somebody says, "Sat-chan," I know it's somebody from Aala.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

BN: So, now you were sixteen when the war started, so you graduated high school...

JK: In '43. When I went to the university, it was an empty campus. There was a guy who sat next to me, Shizuo Oka, who worked all night and came to chemistry class. I had to share my notes with him, 'cause he was tired. There were quite a few people like that, but it was mostly females. When the boys started coming back -- and I was active in student government at that time -- when the boys started coming back -- the whole campus atmosphere changed.

BN: What were you studying? What was your major?

JK: My major? Well, I didn't want to be a teacher because I said, "Oh, across the street they study too hard." I was in (school) for a good time. So I majored in Psychology and minored in Sociology, which prepared me for no job. [Laughs] But fortunately, because I had been active in student government, I was offered a job by the university.

BN: This is after the war?

JK: Yes. So as a program counselor. Of course, that's the kind of stuff I used to do. And I didn't realize until much later, that was a non-teaching faculty position. I was impressed, because when I went into DOE after going back to school for a year and a half, the first paycheck, everybody compares. Oh, mine was much more than what everybody else got. I called the DOE and said, "I think you folks made a mistake. I'm a first-year teacher, and this is what I got." The guy said, "Well, let me check your records." He said, "Oh, no, no mistake. Keep the check, because you had a non-teaching faculty position at the UH." I didn't know until then.

BN: We'll come back to that. I want to just get to the end of the war. How did you find out about the atomic bombings and what was your...

JK: Well, much of it came through the news. I don't think we even discussed it among ourselves.

BN: But (many) of the (families were) from Hiroshima.

JK: (Yes), and my mother is from Hiroshima. I had gone to her family in 1938. Imagine, one day I heard that my neighbor children were going to Japan. So I told my mother, "I want to go to Japan like them." I was only eleven." The next morning she said, "Itte irasshai." So I went to Japan. I turned twelve in Japan. At that time I visited my father's place of birth with my aunt who had lived in Hilo. And I had visited, she took me to my mother's side, so I kind of knew the family. And so, but I did not worry about them during the war. I'm sure my mother did. It was only after the war, then I wondered, "I wonder if they're alive." Because Hiroshima was bombed. But as a child of twelve, I didn't know that my mother's Hiroshima is near the Okayama border and not in the Hiroshima city area which was bombed. So I did some needless worrying.

BN: So she didn't have anyone in her family who was directly...

JK: No, no. But she must have worried, because the news that we got was "U.S. Air Force strikes Hiroshima." You don't hear other details, and that's the only way we got our news.

BN: Do you remember the reaction kind of in town at the end of the war?

JK: Oh. There was a lot of dancing, all of Bishop Street was just chuck full of sailors and citizens alike, local residents, and on to King Street. First Hawaiian Bank, which was called Bishop Bank at that time, was situated at the corner. That whole place was jammed with people, and people were throwing all kinds of confetti-like stuff. But you know, I did not participate. I knew they were doing that, and I could have walked very easily there. But I think I sensed... because I had met my relatives, for me, it was a relief. I did not feel the same exuberance that other people felt. I was relieved that the war had ended.

BN: Did you later get in touch with...

JK: Oh, my mother did get in touch with them. Of course, there were (her) two daughters also. And oh, we used to send care packages, so many of them to Japan. And you know, when I later went to Japan, relatives tell me they remember the Hershey kisses, gingami no chokoreeto, because that was such a treat for them. (The older folks) used to send seeds, vegetable seeds and stuff like that, that I would never have thought of.

BN: You mean to plant?

JK: Yeah, you know, lettuce for example, the seed packages.

BN: I was thinking crack seed. [Laughs] Which they probably also wouldn't know what to do with.

JK: And we sent a lot of fabrics. People used to come to the store to buy a lot of fabrics to send.

BN: To send that.

JK: At first it was primarily foodstuff, but then as the time went on, it was fabric also.

BN: A lot of the areas where Japanese immigrated from were heavily impacted. Hiroshima, also Okinawa.

JK: But you know... and we sent our old clothes, but I've never seen anybody with my clothes. [Laughs] I always look, and, "What did they do with my clothes?"

BN: The other thing I wanted to ask you about, which I've always been fascinated by, is within the community there were all, there were these kachigumi groups, too.

JK: Yes.

BN: Did you, were you... not involved, did you know any of these?

JK: I knew one person who was kachigumi. And there was a professor somebody who was the leader of the (group). But I could not sympathize with them. I felt that America had won the war. And I felt that, "Hey, you guys, you've got to wake up." And later when I went to Japan, my uncle told me, "Japan should never have bombed Pearl Harbor, and they should not have entered the war" -- because there's such a big difference between the material, rich material resources that America had compared to Japan's very limited resources. He says, "We could never have won the war." It's only by that spirit that they thought they could do it, but they couldn't do it.

BN: Everybody at the time was, logic kind of, there was kind of a hysteria.

JK: But the kattagumi, oh, yes, "Japan is winning the war."

BN: And won the war.

JK: But they were a strong, small but a strong force. And being in business, you hear these kind of rumors even more.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 15>

BN: So going back to UH, you mentioned that campus really changed when the returning servicemen started coming back. Can you talk a little bit about that change?

JK: Okay. Up until then, we had very few males on campus, and those males were those who were either at work at Pearl Harbor, or those who couldn't qualify to serve. And so, but when they started coming back, they were a very different kind of person, because I think they had been through so much. We had vets dorm on campus, wooden structures where they dormed. And I got to know these men quite well because we participated in student government (activities). And, of course, they were very pushy people at that time, and they would go and complain to the administration for this and that, which never used to happen before. They had big ideas. I remember we had a big, big carnival, and this was all led by the returning veterans. And when you sit down with them, they wouldn't talk about their war experiences, but they were talking over here and I'm over here kind of thing. But it was a time that I had to grow up real fast. And for me, having a man or a boy in school was already a big thing because I went to the Priory and I didn't have a father. So, oh, big deal. We used to go on moonlight picnics, ukulele in hand, and oh, the guys were wanting to have a very good time. They went through the stresses of war and needed to just get out of it. It was none of this "we date" kind of thing, it was just a group. And we had good times. Here again, I was lucky. [Laughs]

BN: Did you meet your husband?

JK: No.

BN: Because was he was Aala?

JK: Aala, but you see, I met him during the war. And we had a prom at St. Andrews. I didn't know any other men. So because we were learning to dance. (Toshio), later my husband, to ask whether he would go with me to my prom. 'Cause otherwise I didn't know any boys. [Laughs]

[Interruption]

BN: You were talking about going to the prom with your future husband and these picnics and so on with the kids at the university, returning servicemen. Were other of your friends from Aala also at the university? Did that kind of, did those friendships kind of continue?

JK: Maggie Awamura was there. Not many of us went on to college at that time. My husband went to college after he returned from the service.

BN: Did your husband go into the service?

JK: He was drafted. He couldn't go at the time that the 442nd was organized, because he was laid up for two years. Couldn't go to work or do anything for two years because of a bad back. He had surgery.

BN: So during, when you went to the prom together, that was before he was...

JK: No, he was already with a bad back.

BN: Right. But he got drafted afterwards?

JK: Yes. And he served in the Philippines interrogating prisoners of war.

BN: So he was MIS?

JK: MIS. But when my kids ask him, "Daddy, what did you do in the war?" He says, "I went bowling every day." That's what he used to answer. Partly true. He bowled a 300. But he had to do his work, but the only other thing he could do was bowling.

BN: He got good at it, I guess.

JK: But I guess he was kind to those enemy soldiers, because in my apartment I have paintings that they had done for him on parachute silk. The Red Cross provided the ink. But he felt sorry for some, he gave some of them food that he wasn't supposed to give and that kind of stuff, and treated them with dignity I think. He also asked the lieutenant whether he could, before being mustered out, (...) go to Japan. The guy said, "Okay, write your papers." So he wrote his papers and went to Japan, used all the money he had and bought all the things he could buy with that money, food supplies, and walked up and down the village. He had never met his relatives. Asking for the relatives by name. They were so embarrassed to have him, so they put him up in the attic. [Laughs] But they were very happy to take whatever he brought them.

BN: Why were they embarrassed?

JK: Huh?

BN: Why were they embarrassed?

JK: Because here's a Japanese guy in an American uniform asking for them? That's the enemy.

BN: I see. But he came there again, so...

JK: Yeah. And subsequent to that, whenever we went to Japan, they always talked about that. Always. Because it was at a time when they didn't have anything.

BN: And then after that (he) returned.

JK: Returned, and then went to school.

BN: Were you keeping in touch with him during --

JK: (Yes), he used to write letters. And because he was in MIS, he went to Snelling, and then he was... he served in the Philippines and went to Japan, and upon discharge, went to school using the GI Bill.

BN: But during the time he was away, were you kind of girlfriend/boyfriend at that point?

JK: Yeah, kind of like. But he's also a neighbor, and he's my friend's brother. But I did go out with other people.

BN: And I wanted to just follow up with UH, you mentioned your friend Maggie was there also. Was Dan also...

JK: No.

BN: And did you meet him also?

JK: Maggie was teaching already at the university when Dan, she and Dan met.

BN: So this was before.

JK: Yeah, this is before, and she used to go around with this one guy, and he used to hang around. So she says, "Jane, you go with him, I'll go with this guy," kind of thing. [Laughs] We had a very close relationship, and I remember when I had the mumps, she (came) and she said, "I want the mumps, too. I want to touch you." And she touches me like this [indicates sides of face] and she touches her own. [Laughs] She did get it. She got a very serious one. We were very good friends.

BN: So she met Dan later.

JK: She was in the speech department of the UH when Dan met her. And I remember going to her wedding and visiting her in Washington when Dan was a student. And we were students in New York, so we used to go down there and stay with them.

<End Segment 15> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 16>

BN: So now to go back to the U, you went to school, you graduate in...

JK: UH?

BN: Yeah.

JK: '47.

BN: And your degree is in?

JK: That degree was in arts and sciences.

BN: And you mentioned that, you had been active in student government, so you got a job right out of, right after graduation with them?

JK: Yeah, right out of college. And when my husband graduated -- we were married in '48, and he was still a student. And so he wanted to go to art school in New York, because he said for him to know furniture, he has to know design.

BN: And so was the idea that he was going to just take over the business?

JK: Yes, that was expected of him. And so we went to New York for a year.

BN: So did you quit your job then?

JK: I thought I did.

BN: But just to go back, what was the job?

JK: It was called a program counselor. And what I did was in Hemenway Hall. It was kind of a student activity center, and I managed the hall. We had a board of governors that I met with (as a faculty member). It was a very interesting job, because I met a lot of people. And the guys that used to play bridge all day or talk under the tree, these are the guys who -- I used to shoo them off to class -- these are the guys who became the leaders in our community. So there's something to playing cards. [Laughs]

BN: Sometimes the troublemakers are, they have leadership skills.

JK: And when I went to New York, I turned in my letter of resignation. But when I was on the way home we took a two months' trip driving to, going to wherever we wanted to go. When I got to the state of Washington, there was a letter waiting for me. They had tried to track me. They didn't accept my resignation. "So you have a job when you come home."

BN: They must have liked you.

JK: So I went right into the job, back into the job.

BN: So how long were you in New York?

JK: A year.

BN: And your husband was going to...

JK: He was going to interior design school full time. And I thought, well, I'll go half time. We couldn't afford for me to go full time too, because the GI Bill wasn't enough to support him and me for the duration.

BN: What school was this?

JK: New York School of Interior Design, an affiliate of New York University, NYU.

BN: And where was that located?

JK: Downtown.

BN: Right in Manhattan?

JK: Manhattan, downtown, fifty-something.

BN: And where did you live?

JK: We lived on West Sixty-Second. So I know the subway. That's when... the vivid thing about that is (the building) was owned by a Jewish man, the lady next door to us, the apartment next door was so neat, I tell you, my room was like a trash bin. [Laughs] It was so small that there was a Murphy bed, a Murphy bed you pull down kind of (bed). And the guys from, who were going to Cornell used to come down to spend some time in New York. So we used to spend a lot of time with them.

BN: You mentioned you visited Maggie in Washington, D.C. Did you venture out other places?

JK: Not at that time. Not at that time, but later on, I took my kids on quite extensive trips around that area. That was a real (...) outstanding trip, I think. We took over a month. We started off in Denver, then went up and down, up and down, got to Washington, went down to Williamsburg and had a grand time there. My mother was with us at that time, and we bought how many pairs of shoes for her, sore, sore, sore (feet). And we found one (in the) ninety-nine cents in a bin, and that was the best shoe. [Laughs]

BN: You didn't take her to Uyeda? Now mother gets all of her shoes from Uyeda, because it's the only one that has her size.

JK: I tell you, we bought so many pairs of shoes (on the mainland for Mother).

BN: When you were in New York, did you socialize with... because there were a lot of Japanese in New York at the time who came out of the camps, even some from Hawaii.

JK: Our best friends were the Kawakamis, who lived on the same street at the other end of the street. Keiji was going to NYU, and his wife was at home. They had a baby girl. So we helped babysit (her) once in a while. We took omusubi and that kind of stuff (and ate) at Central Park, and he said, Keiji used to say, "Let the haoles smell our food and drool over our food." [Laughs]

BN: Which probably wasn't happening. [Laughs]

JK: But we did simple things like that and enjoyed our stay there. And on the way home we stopped in Boston first. We drove up, we bought a car for $125 in New York City, we drove cross country for two months, and sold the car for $125 in L.A. [Laughs] When we were in Boston, we visited with George Akita and his wife. And (my husband) tells me, "Call New York and tell them we're coming back. We're not going home." And I said, "No, no, we can't do that. You promised your father that you would be back in a year to run the store." He said, "No, no, no." We had a big argument.

BN: So he wanted to stay.

JK: He wanted to stay, yeah. He enjoyed it so much.

BN: But you won.

JK: I won. Because he knew he had an obligation. Because the father actually did not want him to go to New York.

<End Segment 16> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 17>

BN: So you did return.

JK: We returned and he ran the store.

BN: Did you live actually there in the store?

JK: No. We lived separately all the while.

BN: And then you have a job waiting for you back at UH.

JK: Yeah. But we ate dinner there every night.

BN: "There" being where?

JK: My mother-in-law cooked dinner every night for us.

BN: At their house.

JK: Yeah. I think she knew that I didn't know how to cook. [Laughs]

BN: Looking out for her son.

JK: Yeah. But she fed us throughout the time that he went to school.

BN: You were working too.

JK: I was working at UH, yeah. Very lucky all around.

BN: So did you go back to the exact same job?

JK: To what?

BN: Did you go back to exactly the same job?

JK: (Yes). And so when they told me the job was waiting, I said, "But I turned in my resignation," and Barbara Clark told me, "The resignation paper is right (here) in my drawer." Never turned it in. So I guess they worked out the leave of absence.

BN: Was it something you really enjoyed?

JK: I enjoyed the job. It was constant interaction with people, and I enjoy people. It was a stimulating time, too, because at first it was all these veterans that I was dealing with. And they had these experiences that I couldn't imagine. So we had some very serious conversations. I remember... did you go to that show over the weekend at the academy?

BN: No, I didn't.

JK: Okay. Takejiro Higa is featured. And in one clip, his brother Warren Higa, who was very active in student government -- there are two Warren Higas -- this is not the one that's active in (the) Okinawa society. But he told me -- and I'll never forget that -- he went to war, came back, and he said, "You know, Jane, I used to be ashamed of the fact that I'm an Okinawan." He said, "After I went to Okinawa and saw their culture and interacted with their people, I'm so proud to be Okinawan." And I'll never forget that, because it was at a time when Okinawans were still discriminated against in our community. He said, "I'm very proud." So I've had, I've been lucky. I've had interesting experiences in my life. So I used to tell my mother, "'Sachiko' means 'fortunate child,' and you named me very appropriately." My brother used to say, "Jane, when you have difficulties, right at the time that it's most difficult, something good happens to you." He says, "Me, it continues to be not so good." [Laughs] He always used to say that to me. So I don't know. Just born under the lucky stars. So I tell him, "7/7, July 7th."

<End Segment 17> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 18>

BN: And you're at UH, and then at some point you go to DOE.

JK: Yes.

BN: So how does that...

JK: Okay. I went to DOE first because somebody had... okay, no, that's another story. Oh. When I had my two boys stayed (at) home, I realized how important elementary school teachers were. I was on the college level working with college students. And by then, and especially these guys had gone off to war, they're trying to circumvent policies, and they would argue about the policies. But, you know, if you want to really (affect) children, you've got to go down. So my goal was to go down to kindergarten. And so I went to school, back to school, and then I told Mary Musgrove, who was in charge of early elementary, I said, "Mary, I want to go into K." And she says, "You'll never make it." See, you cannot go from college level to kindergarten or even first grade. I said, "I can, I'll show it to you." She said no. So she put me in sixth grade. So I went down as far as third grade, but one day, when I was... I went as a special education teacher (to Ma'ema'e), teaching language arts (to) the whole (student body). And anyway, one day the principal came to me and said, "Do you want to take on a first grade class?" And I said, "That's what I've been asking for." And she said, "Well, Mrs. Rodriguez is held up in traffic. Could you go and open her classroom?" I said, "Sure, I'd be glad to." I went. She used to come collecting lunch money. She said, "First grade, you've got to open the windows." You know, (...) upper grades, (the students) open the windows for you. She said, "First grade, you have to open the windows." And that's how I learned that I was not good for the lower grades. [Laughs]

BN: Before, you said that you didn't want to be a teacher.

JK: No, because they studied too hard. I was there (at UH) to have a good time.

BN: But was it mainly having your own children that changed your...

JK: Yes. I realized the importance of elementary grades, and the lower the better. Because they're listening to you and you can mold them. But by the time they get to college, forget it, and especially if they've been to war.

BN: So how old were your boys when you went back to...

JK: School? I was in my thirties. But they had what's called an accelerated teacher training program, and there were several of us who were older. And so the younger ones thought that we were smart, and we thought that the younger ones were smart. Because we brought experiences and they brought academic learning. So it was a good combination, stimulating one another. I've some very good memories of that.

BN: And from there you went to?

JK: I taught (...) sixth grade. I went to Hickam, and that's military. They put me in a big, big Quonset that had been used as a theater, and I had a stage, and my voice wouldn't carry. [Laughs] So there were problems there. Then one of the questions that I still remember is... I tried to introduce myself to the classes, and I said, "I'm an Asian." And the kids said, "Asian, you Japanese?" "Yes, I'm Japanese." "That means (you're of the) yellow race?" "Yellow race." "But your face is not yellow." I said, "What do you mean? What kind of yellow are you talking about?" He pointed to the paint jar. [Laughs] I have that kind of memories, very fond memories of teaching.

BN: So these are kids that have never seen...

JK: He had never. (Before) Hickam, he had never seen an Asian. And then he said, "Like that color?" "No, you come and I'll show you my hand and your hand. Let's put (them) side by side, and then you can see the yellow cast." "Oh." [Laughs] Teaching is such a joy.

BN: And what other schools did you teach at?

JK: I taught at Hickam, I taught at Maiemai. Those were the only two schools. I did my practice teaching at Liliuokalani.

BN: Right out here.

JK: Yeah, Kaimuki. And that's all that I went to. I was longest at Ma'ema'e. I put in twenty-four-and-a-half years. And then that's when my husband told me, "Retire." Because our two boys had completed college and the third one was in college. He had finished college while I worked. So he said, "It's your time to go to school." I said, "What for?" He said, "Get a PhD in education." So I left work, but I thought, maybe I'll go into law, not to be a lawyer, but to use that as a basis for understanding all kinds of things. And (then I) said, "No, give me one year." So I took aikido for one year, every morning. And then... oh, shucks, you know. Then I took care of my mom, and then Hideto said, "Come and work on the gallery." That's how I got involved.

BN: So you didn't go back. So you never did go back to school.

JK: I did, but I went back into the teacher training program.

BN: No, but I mean after you retired, when your husband said, "Get your PhD."

JK: Yeah.

BN: So you didn't go back.

JK: No, I did not. Instead of that, I became involved here.

BN: Throughout this whole time, your husband was...

JK: Managing the store.

BN: The business still. And then what was the fate of the business? It didn't stay in, did you stay in Aala?

JK: No. He moved from Aala because it was part of a reconstruction area, the whole building was torn down. Besides that, his building was not the same building as our store. They were in a wooden structure. He had I don't know how many, 35,000 square feet or something, but he had to relocate. And that's when he was already the manager of the store. So he relocated to several places, and he finally ended up, he was on Beretania, and he was at another place, and then he finally relocated to Aiea Shopping Center, because the space was big enough for him. It's not like (other stores), you know, (for) furniture you need lots of space. And so he ended up there, and then one day he said, "I think I'm going to close the store." Because he was thinking about retirement, and he said, he asked the kids -- we had a big meeting -- asked the kids whether (they) wanted to continue the store, and none of the kids (were interested), "We see you working too hard, no thank you." Actually, it was only two of them. And so he says, "Well, there's no sense in my working. I see changes coming on in the business community, and I'm not trained for that kind of changes. So I may as well quit while the going is good." And he had offers (from) people (wanting) to buy the store, but he did not, Levitz, for example, wanted to buy him out, and Levitz is a big mainland chain. But he said no, he would sell only to a local. And there weren't any takers, so he just closed up the store. And the minute he closed up, another store said, "Can you come and work for us?" He said, "Why would I?" [Laughs] But he served as the consultant (...) for Serta mattress, which was opening up retail outlets.

BN: What year did he close?

JK: I don't know. '80s? He said that business is going to be -- he sees that the way business is being done is going to be very different, and he's not up to it. Besides, he's getting older. So he played golf. He golfed after that, every morning. At five o'clock, they all met at Pali Golf Course. And so he would be home by eight-thirty or nine.

BN: And then he'd have all day.

JK: And then he had all day, but then he was asked to come in as consultant. They said, "Any time you want." So he would go at ten o'clock or ten-thirty, oh, help them one hour, have lunch, and come home. [Laughs] Good deal.

<End Segment 18> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 19>

BN: Now before we get to JCCH, before that, right, you wrote the Okage Sama De book.

JK: (Yes).

BN: Now how did that come about?

JK: Okay. Actually it came about because when I was teaching, this publisher came to me and said, "I want to do a series of books on different ethnic groups in Hawaii. Would you do the one for (the) Japanese?" And I said, "Well, maybe." And so he got a group of us together, (...) the Hawaiian was (by) Dot Hazama, she had done hers, it's thin (booklet). And then Chinese was well on her way. She said, "When are you going to start?" I don't know. And I said, "I don't know," for so long, so Dot said, "If I came in with you, would you do it? You know the history and I know how to go about doing the book." So I said, "Okay, maybe." But Dot is the one who pushed me, and so she and I worked on it together.

BN: How did you develop kind of interest in the history?

JK: I've always been interested in history. It's just that my nature was such. And then later on I found that my mother's family were historians writing books. So maybe it's genetic, I don't know.

BN: How long did you and Dot work on the book?

JK: Well, it took about eight years from the time that the publisher asked, because I dilly dallied, and Dot said, "We need the book." It was going to be first for fourth graders, that's where the curriculum was. By the time we started working on it, it was in the seventh and eighth grades. The curriculum had changed. And by the time we gathered materials, we found that we had a book for (the) public -- general consumption. So that's when the book came to be a full-sized book.

BN: It came out kind of tied to the 100th anniversary.

JK: Yes, Kanyaku Imin. In fact, I think the book was introduced -- we had a coming out party at the East West Center, and I think that was the same year as the Kanyaku Imin (Centennial). This is 1985.

BN: But the way you tell the story is you were working on it for eight years. That wasn't necessarily the intention...

JK: Eight years. No, I wasn't that motivated.

BN: Kind of happened that way. Tell me about the title.

JK: That came about just spontaneously. We would say, "Okay, now we have a book. What are we gonna call it?" But you know, as we talked with these older people, the word always came out. Okage Sama De, now we're comfortable, we struggled at the beginning, but look at what we are today. Look at my kids. Always refer to where we are today, the kids. They were able to go to college, etcetera, etcetera. And so that was a natural for us. And you know, we struck it rich, I guess, because everybody else would say, "Okage same de." It wasn't a common terminology for that kind of thing. But the book, (after) the last publication (...), the publisher came to us and said, "We need to republish the book." And (we) said, "Oh my, so much has happened since then." So we worked on it together again and added.

BN: Do you know how many copies you've sold?

JK: [Shakes head] I know (we got) thirty-five cents a book or something, the royalties are. [Laughs] But Buddy Bess has been very good to us. And his wife was an English professor, so she edited when necessary. So we had a good deal there. It was an enjoyable... we have an apartment in Makaha, so Dot and I would go out there for the weekend and, you know, look at the surf. [Laughs]

BN: That's why it took many years. [Laughs] I was telling you before about how Nisei: The Quiet Americans is in every household on the mainland.

JK: That's right, Hosokawa.

BN: And I think your book was almost like that here, you find it almost, everybody's got it.

JK: Yeah. Well, we're so grateful for that. But he has done a good job, Buddy Bess.

<End Segment 19> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 20>

BN: So going forward a few years then, you were telling me before about, well, that you retired and then you took aikido, and then this is when Hideto Kono...

JK: Well, Hideto Kono came to me (while I was taking) that aikido (...). My mother was very ill (at that time). I had her at my house. My sister had taken care of her for a long time (when) my mother was okay. And then so I told her one day, "Grandma, we can't do it anymore," because we had to lift her. And I have a bad back and so does my husband. She says, "I know what you mean." She says, "Do I have enough money to go to Hale Pulama Mau?" And my brother (who) was keeping account of her money, said, "Yes." So she says, "Okay, as long as I don't depend on the government, I will go." You know Japanese pride.

BN: Was Hale Pulama Mau kind of Japanese?

JK: Yes, it's attached to Kuakini Hospital, which used to be the Japanese hospital.

BN: So there's kind of a Japanese...

JK: Yeah, push to it. But, and fortunately, she was in a room right outside of the nursing station. And there were two beds in that room, and her fellow patient was a public schoolteacher, so she could talk with her. Not somebody who sat over there like this. So for her it was a good experience. And for us, too, it was good because we could go and talk with her. But it must have been hard for her to see these people strapped to their wheelchairs and sitting all day at the nursing station with their head just, you know, (hanging). 'Cause she had all her buttons.

BN: She was sharp.

JK: She was sharp. And that lady next to her was sharp, so it was good.

BN: Okay, well to get back to Hideto Kono and getting you to volunteer...

JK: Well, you know, when the committee was first organized, Patsy Saiki, the author, was chair. And I remember meeting at Tendai Mission, and I worked with them. And then I kind of left the committee when I took care of my mom. And Hideto had asked me, "Jane, would you do the gallery?" Hideto was chair of the board, I think, at that time. And he took a crack at, he helped in the gallery, too, developing the gallery. But I said, "No, I got to take care of my mom." So I still remember, "Your mother died now, you don't have any excuses." [Laughs] We were such good friends that he could tell me that. And so I said, "Okay." But he helped along the way, too. And I had a very good person who was brought to me, Stan Yamamoto, who was the art person for the DOE. He (had) set up the art program for the whole state. And so Walter brought him to me, so we worked together. He (worked) on the finances. And he's the one who got me Tom Kiobe and Momi (Cazimero). I did not know them before that, but now we're fast friends.

BN: How long did you end up working on this exhibit?

JK: Many years. Many years. But you know, it was an interesting experience for me, and in working on this gallery, we tried to figure out -- not me, Tom and Momi -- trying to figure out how to place the different rooms. And we didn't want the straight walkthrough kind of thing. And the key to that was when we got the movie theater set, then the rest all fell into place at one time. So that was an "aha moment" that we rejoiced.

BN: Is the back here, you know, the kind of street scene, I mean, knowing you're from Aala and then the theater, I mean, is that kind based on Aala?

JK: Not really, although, you see, this is Yamashiro Hotel which is on the Beretania side. But Momi had come from a small town on the Hamakua coast, so she kind of knew that kind of scene. So no, it really fell into place when we got the theater. And that became a sacred shrine almost because of the war things. And at first we wanted to put the value markers -- besides having them at the entrance, what this scene depicted most. And we thought, oh, too much. But only in the theater do we have chuugi and something else. So it was a real working group, and we enjoyed each other. And we all drew on each other's expertise. So Tom had this spatial kind of... not only spatial, Momi had that, too, but Tom had the details. He and (Wayne) Kawamoto came in and did that. They were both at the University. Momi had all the contacts in town. But she's the one who first designated the theater. And we're still working at it.

BN: Were you happy with the, how it turned out?

JK: Well, you know, one of the articles in the newspaper that I remember most, Will Hoover of the, I don't know whether it was the Advertiser or the Star-Bulletin, said this is after he came through the gallery, "The best-kept secret in Honolulu. It's (done so well)." And so my agreement in taking this over was that I would do the gallery, but Walter (Saito, the executive director of JCCH), has to do the publicity because I could not work on both at the same time. So I told Walter, "Walter, you've got to push this a little bit more so that when somebody says it's the best-kept secret, it means it's good." But not many people know about it. And I don't know... I had hoped that at the time that we were working on this -- and I tried to work through legislators -- so that we would have one big museum with different ethnicities represented. Worked very hard on that, but it didn't go through.

BN: That was the state history museum, Roland Kotani?

JK: Hmm?

BN: I think, wasn't Roland Kotani one of the...

JK: Oh, he was in it, too, I think. But I remembered... my friends in the legislature, "How come you didn't come to talk to me?" But it was too big a project for the state at that time. So even today, we don't have a real Chinese one, right? We don't have a Korean one. Hawaiian maybe at Bishop Museum.

BN: But there is no state issue.

JK: Yeah. The Filipinos have something a little bit at Waipahu, or Plantation Village is something that we all enjoy. But, you know, I think we did quite well. [Laughs]

BN: And you're working on finishing and completing...

JK: Well, I told Tom the other day, "June 3rd, deadline." [Laughs] And he said, "We'll get it done." But in the meantime, he has to go to the mainland. So you know, one leaves, Momi leaves, I leave, Tom leaves." [Laughs] We don't leave at the same time.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 21>

BN: Well, you're obviously staying busy. Are there other things that you're working on?

JK: Well, I help with the Hiroshima Heritage Study Group, research and things like that, presentations. I used to be active in my educational sorority, but it got to the point where I could not do all kinds of things. Because for one thing, I do not drive too much, and so people would have to pick me up. So I dropped that. So I'm concentrating only on this and the (...) Hiroshima group things.

BN: Why do you think that it's so important for people to know about this story that's told in here and the book?

JK: Well, we take so much for granted, for one thing, that we're so privileged people now. And the Japanese as such have had to build from nothing. They were low men on the totem pole, pay-wise and even (with) respect. And now we're way up high, and there's a lot of work that went on to get to that point. And I feel that kids, other people need to know that, especially our young people. And that was my commitment, to share the experience of the Japanese in Hawaii. And every ethnic group has such stories to tell. But as an example of how these early people built up the community to what we have today, we enjoy today, that was my commitment. I hope it's doing its job. [Laughs] But I have all kinds of memories that bombard me, so I may talk not like this. But I remember a (...) lady from Japan, and I had taken a group on tour, and she came up to me later with tears in her eyes. She held, gripped my hands, both hands, and she told me, "I hope that when our Japanese people, students come from Japan, that you will tell them. Because your story, and particularly the virtues that you stress," she says, "we don't have them in Japan and we have to learn from you." Just tears streaming down her eyes, it was an older lady. So all that kind of (experiences) make it, oh, it was worth working on. It's being appreciated. Then when people say, "Oh, you mean my great-grandfather" -- this picture here?

BN: The Yamashiro Hotel?

JK: Yeah, the picture, but the man standing there. And we took that, we took that man out of a photo that we had and he was standing like that on a ship. (A fellow) said, "That's my grandfather." You know, there are moments like that. It was my dentist's father. [Laughs] But you know, it just makes it more meaningful to have it like that. And we have little secrets. Tsuneda's store, for example, was (for) our carpenter. Got to name something for him. And then Tom writes this on the board here, "By Sachiko." (That's my name). [Laughs] We have little secrets here and there. The barbershop is named after Stan's family.

BN: That's my wife's family, too.

JK: Yeah. So, you know, we've got our own little secrets around the place.

BN: You have to write a behind-the-scenes Okage Sama De book.

JK: But we enjoyed it.

BN: We can tell. It has that.

JK: But I think the biggest, the thing that had the most effect on us at the early stages was the fact that we wanted this in the form of a Japanese garden. So that when you go to one place and see one scene, and you turn the corner, you see another scene. And that was the principle that motivated us. So I've made a lot of friends, had a lot of experiences, and I'm grateful.

BN: Very nice interview. Is there any other, anything else that you would like to add before we finish up?

JK: I've said pretty... you know, I just talk from the top of my head. [Laughs]

BN: It was very well thought-out.

JK: But you know, even today when people call me and ask me (about the Japanese in Hawai'i), I think, "Oh, I'm not put out to pasture yet." [Laughs] And I'm grateful. "Thanks for calling." But it's been my pleasure, and if somebody can get something out of my experiences, I would consider it worthwhile.

<End Segment 21> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.