Densho Digital Archive
Densho Visual History Collection
Title: Kiwamu "Kiyo" Tsuchida Interview
Narrator: Kiwamu "Kiyo" Tsuchida
Interviewer: Tom Ikeda
Location: Seattle, Washington
Date: April 24, 2012
Densho ID: denshovh-tkiwamu-01

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: Okay, so we're gonna start. Today's Tuesday, April 24, 2012, and we are in Seattle in the Densho studio, and this afternoon we have Kiwamu Tsuchida to be interviewed. On camera is Dana Hoshide, and I'm the interviewer, Tom Ikeda. And so, should I call you Kiyo or Kiwamu?

KT: Yeah, Kiyo. Kiyo's fine.

TI: Okay, Kiyo. So Kiyo, let me start by asking, so can you just tell me where you were born and when?

KT: Auburn, Washington.

TI: And what was the --

KT: February 2, 1923.

TI: So that makes you eighty-nine?

KT: Nine. [Laughs]

TI: Eighty-nine years old. Wow. Congratulations. You look, great shape. So, and when you were born, February 2, 1923, what was the name given to you at birth?

KT: Kiwamu.

TI: And was there any significance to that name, Kiwamu?

KT: No. Well, not necessarily. It was my aunt, my mother's older sister, she was a, what do you call, a principal of some girls school, so she was well educated, the third female to graduate college in the Shiga prefecture, something like that. So she's the one my mother wrote and wanted her to pick the name, and she gave me that name, Kiwamu.

TI: And do you know why she selected that name?

KT: No, I don't. I don't. But through the years, I've never run across another Kiwamu. [Laughs]

TI: Yeah, this is the first time I've come across it too, so that's, I was curious.

KT: Yeah.

TI: So it's your aunt, so your mother's sister gave it to you. Okay. So since we talked a little bit about your mother, can you tell me your mother's name?

KT: Mother was Tetsu, T-E-T-S-U, Matsumiya.

TI: And where was she from?

KT: She's Shiga prefecture. The village was Taga.

TI: Tell me about her family. What kind of work did her family do?

KT: They had a oil store. They called it Aburaya Oil, and they sold all kinds of oil. And they, then they gradually got into what they call zaka. It's a variety of things like you find in a ten cent store, all kinds of things. But the old days, I guess, was oil for cooking, like sesame seed oil and all that, plus kerosene for lamps. That's pretty much it, I guess. It was that way until electricity came in, I guess, but they were still selling oil for cooking and lamps and things like that.

TI: Did your mother have any interesting stories, what it was like running an oil store? This is another story I've never heard, like an oil store.

KT: That's about it, is Aburaya. And so I guess in the Japanese sense they were kind of well off, so everyone went to school. So my aunt was the third female to graduate college in Shiga prefecture, and then the other sister, she was a sewing teacher. I don't know what you call it, but the Japanese type kimonos and stuff, she was doing that. And one of 'em married a Buddhist priest. My mother, I don't know why she married my dad and came here. [Laughs] They were farming.

TI: Well, tell me about your mother's education. What kind of education --

KT: She was a high school graduate in Japan.

TI: And did she further her studies and did she specialize in anything?

KT: No, she didn't. But I remember several people used to come and have her write letters for them, especially when the Niseis became a certain age, because of the dual citizenship they were subject to draft in Japan. They would come to my mother and have her write letters to the, I don't know where they wrote back. I think the wrote the letter to their home, where they're from.

TI: So the Japanese government or some kind of government agency.

KT: Yeah, for, what do you call, deferment from the draft.

TI: Was it deferment or were they actually renouncing their Japanese citizenship? Or was it just trying to, just saying that they couldn't do the draft because they were in a different place?

KT: I think it was, at the time I think it was just a deferment.

TI: Interesting. Okay.

KT: I'm not sure, but I think that's what it was. Later on, then they start renouncing their citizenship, Japanese citizenship.

TI: Yeah, I'm jumping about a little bit, but then, in your family did the Niseis have dual citizenship, like your older brothers and things like that?

KT: I'm pretty sure they did. I think it was after the, after the war ended, they said, "Hey, somebody came over and said, 'Hey, you better get rid of your Japanese citizenship'." So they all got rid of it.

TI: Now, how would you know? I mean, did you know that you had dual citizenship, like Japanese and American?

KT: No, I didn't know. I heard about it when they were saying they were renouncing their Japanese citizenship. I was in the army in Japan, and they, I said, "Don't do anything. Not with mine." [Laughs] And later on, after I came back here, I had a, some sort of a deal where I was gonna be in one of these super snoop organizations, and I asked the officer, I said, "Should I renounce my American citizenship?" He says, "No, no. There's no reason to ever get your --"

TI: To renounce your Japanese citizenship?

KT: Yeah. "There's no reason to ever get your Japanese citizenship..." So I didn't.

TI: Okay.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: So let's go now back to your father. Can you tell me your father's name?

KT: Yeah. Father is Kuhei, K-U-H-E-I.

TI: And where was he from?

KT: Same place, Shiga prefecture.

TI: And what did his family do in Japan?

KT: I think they were just farmers.

TI: So did it, how did your father come to the United States?

KT: He was in the Japan-Russian War, he was discharged, and I think he told me that they were homesteading in Hokkaido or something. He went up there. And he says Hokkaido's too cold, so they were, people were immigrating to the States, so he got on a ship and came to the States, and went to Hawaii. And he says Hawaii was too hot, so he got on another ship and came to Seattle. There's no job in Seattle, so he went up to Alaska and he worked in the hills.

TI: In what? In fuels?

KT: Hills, falling trees.

TI: Okay. So logging kind of.

KT: Logging, yeah. Funny thing, I never saw bowling 'til I was in like junior high school and all the... and he told me in the wintertime, with the snow, they can't do any logging, so he came down to Ketchikan and he set pins in a bowling alley.

TI: Interesting.

KT: Yeah. So that was, to me, that was a surprise that they had bowling way back when.

TI: Now, was he a good bowler? Did he do --

KT: No. [Laughs]

TI: I wonder if he ever did it in Ketchikan. And do you know about how old he was when he came and was in Alaska?

KT: Gosh, I don't know.

TI: Or about what year he came?

KT: Must've been in his twenties, early twenties, 'cause he's right after the Japan-Russian War.

TI: Okay.

KT: Yeah, and he, he and, I don't know if, he's telling me that when they get paid he would get the money, the gold coins, and they'd put 'em in these little leather, had Indians make these leather things and they'd tie it around their waist. And he said as that got heavier and heavier that it would callous around the waist. And then they, some Japanese that he knew, they decided, "Well, let's get out of this business." They come back to Seattle and they were walking to Auburn, I guess, was looking for areas to farm or something, clear land. And I don't know whether he was involved or he's telling me about somebody else, but he said, they said a bunch of kids, hakujin kids came out there and said, "Hey, Japs, Japs." And he said they had green apples and they'd throw 'em at 'em. They had money, but they couldn't talk, they couldn't buy food, so they ran around, picked up these green apples and ate 'em. [Laughs] That was so good.

TI: They were so hungry they, they...

KT: Yeah. And then eventually they found people that would, willing to let 'em clear land and farm there.

TI: Now, did he ever say why Auburn? 'Cause Auburn's pretty far from the waterfront. I mean, you'd think --

KT: Well, they got on the road and just kept walking, looking for places.

TI: Well that's a long walk, then, from, from Seattle, if that's where they landed.

KT: Yeah. I don't know, they might've had friends that said, "Down in this area there are other Japanese." But yeah, there's a place in Auburn called White Lake Hill, and down below the hill there, he said, "I cleared all that land."

TI: How interesting.

KT: Yeah, they cleared it and planted potatoes.

TI: And going back, so he had this sort of, I guess in some ways it's like a money belt, where he had all his gold.

KT: Yeah.

TI: So did he have quite a bit of gold? Was it, was he pretty well off when he came back from Alaska?

KT: I guess he was. He bought the tools, plows and things like that to farm with. I guess most of the Japanese saved their money.

TI: How about a farm? Did he either buy or lease a farm?

KT: No, they, most of it, for a long time it was, would clear it and farm it for some number of years, I don't know how many years. But then later on we leased the land, and when the war broke out... the land we were on was leased to so many years.

TI: Okay.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: So let's go back. I want to find out, so how did your mother and father meet?

KT: They, he went, after he came here he went back to Japan, and then I guess the, where he was born is maybe a mile or so or less, where the villages are. The village around that area is Tsuchida, so that's where, I don't know, miai kekkon, I guess they, what you call --

TI: Like a go-between or some arranged marriage. Okay. And so the two of them come back to Auburn, and then they start having children.

KT: Yeah.

TI: So why don't you tell me about your siblings, kind of in birth order?

KT: There was an older brother named Frank Hitoshi, and there was a Takeshi.

TI: And how much older was Frank, then, than you? Like how...

KT: Frank was, must've been at least seven years older than me.

TI: Okay.

KT: And Tak, Takeshi was five years older. Then there was a Satoshi, who was three years. And Satoshi was a twin, there was a, his twin sister, Yukimi, so they were three years older than me. And then I come along, and then my, I had a sister named Mae, which is three years younger than me, and Lola, who was two years younger than Mae, and then Ben, the younger brother, I don't know, he was born in '31, I think he said, 1931.

TI: So it's be eight years, like, so another three years after Lola.

KT: Yeah.

TI: Okay. And so you're, like, right, kind of right in the middle of all these kids.

KT: Yeah.

TI: So it looks like your --

KT: I got beat up the most.

TI: [Laughs] Now why, so why would a middle child get beat up the most? I would think the youngest or the...

KT: [Laughs] Bigger brothers, you know.

TI: Because you had, what, three older brothers and one older sister? Is that...

KT: Yeah.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: Okay, so tell me what your parents did for work, starting with your father. What kind of work did your father do? He started off doing farm work.

KT: He started out doing farm work and he got, he was kicked by a horse and I think he fractured his skull, and I think he was sort of out of it for a couple years. And as he recovered, then he went to work for the railroad, and he was a, what do you call 'em, gandy dancers, they repair tracks and things like that. And that, that's all he did from then on.

TI: And which railroad did he work for?

KT: Northern Pacific.

TI: And what was the term, he was a gandy dancer? I've never heard that, gandy...

KT: Yeah, they called 'em, they called 'em gandy dancers because they use the shovel and they, like they replace the tie, a tie is bad and they pull it out and they'll put another one in. Then they get gravel and cinder and stuff, and they tap it underneath it to firm it up. They were just railroad laborers on the, track laborers is what they were.

TI: And the crew that your father worked with, was it...

KT: In Auburn they had a Japanese foreman, and there must've been four or five Japanese Isseis working. They would work that and they would work in the roundhouse where they'd bring in these, what do you call these, freight, freight cars, and they would clean 'em out.

TI: Now, working for the railroad, was that considered a good job for an Issei back then?

KT: At the time, it was steady pay. [Laughs] Whereas when you're farming, you don't have a pay, like in the wintertime, and everything is, you sign a contract for, like you're gonna raise peas or beans or berries, and then you take the contract to the bank and they lend you money.

TI: So having, working for the railroad, you get a steady paycheck, which, this is kind of during the Depression time too, so it's probably a useful thing to have during this time, to have a steady paycheck.

KT: Yeah. It was good.

TI: Good. Did your father ever talk about the job, any interesting stories about working the railroad?

KT: No.

TI: Let's talk about your mother. So what did your mother, I mean, one is raising the family. She had lots of children.

KT: Well, she took over the farm. She took over the farm and ran us kids, do all the farm work.

TI: And so how large was the farm? I mean, how many acres?

KT: Not too big. I don't know, berry fields were about two, three acres, I guess, raspberries.

TI: Okay.

KT: And then we had maybe three, four acres of truck gardening, which takes a lot of work, lettuce, cucumber, carrots.

TI: And what would you do with the produce? I mean, who would you sell it to?

KT: Like cucumbers would be a contract with Libby's, Libby, McNeill and Libby. And let's see, berries was something we sold to a Japanese store in Auburn. I don't know, he didn't, it wasn't a grocery store or anything, but he had the means of shipping it, so he would ship these raspberries express to Montana or Chicago or, but we would sell it to him. And later on when we got into blackberries, it was, I don't know, some association, berry growers association that would, I don't really know what the connection there was, but we signed a contract that the, everything they grow would be sold to them.

TI: Okay. So your mother was a pretty hard worker, then.

KT: Oh yeah.

TI: To run a farm with a lot, in some cases, some young children too. She had some young kids.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: In the notes I saw that your oldest brother, Frank, and your older sister went to Japan?

KT: Yeah, yeah.

TI: So tell me about that. Why did the two of them go to Japan?

KT: I don't know when this was, but it must've been around '20, before I was born I think. They made a trip back to Japan and it was decided that they would leave my sister and my oldest brother in Japan, then Tak, Takeshi and Satoshi they brought back here. And I don't know, maybe they wanted him to get a Japanese education or something. I don't know.

TI: Or as the oldest son, maybe in terms of just, like an heir to the family property.

KT: Yeah, yeah.

TI: And so when you were born, was Frank and your sister in Japan?

KT: Yeah, they were in Japan.

TI: Okay. So you, in some ways, didn't even know you had another brother and sister.

KT: No, no. I think I was in second grade when Frank came to the States. And I must've been, I must've been a senior in high school when my sister came, 'cause she, she graduated and she was at, she went to, like a normal school, and she was a teacher and she taught at different places. And she was, they said she should come to the States and learn tailoring, how to take patterns and so forth, so that's what she did. She came here to learn that and then she, she intended to go back, but the war started so she couldn't go back.

TI: Interesting. Now, how was it for her adapting to the United States? I mean, here's your sister, but she essentially was raised in Japan 'til she was in her early twenties, then all of a sudden Japan -- how was that for her?

KT: I really don't know because I... you know, it wasn't too long after that the war started. We sent her, there was a lady teaching sewing and how to take patterns and everything in Auburn, and she was living off of her, so I never... maybe it's because of the language, I don't know. I never did really sit down and talk with her much, until we got to Utah.

TI: Yeah, we'll come back to that later, but yeah, I'm gonna do that 'cause I know you stayed with her.

KT: Now, she got married in Tule Lake.

TI: Right.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: You mentioned, just in terms of talking with her, I wanted to ask about your Japanese ability, Japanese language ability. Did you go to Japanese school?

KT: Yeah, I went to Japanese school. But it was so often that my brother and I would do something and then our teacher would say, "Kaere," so we would say, "Thank you," grab our jacket and walk out. [Laughs]

TI: So say it again, why would the teacher say that to you?

KT: Because we would be disturbing all the other students.

TI: So the teacher essentially kicked you out of class. [Laughs]

KT: Yeah. [Laughs] It was, you go to the public school and then, well, if you go to three, four, five hours and then you, you go to Japanese school, then you got to sit there a couple hours. And that, that wasn't my, well, that wasn't my thing.

TI: Okay, so it sounds like you weren't a really...

KT: I would, we learned some. We learned katakana, hiragana and a few kanjis, simple kanjis. But I really didn't like that Japanese school. It was, and I regretted it after I went to Camp Savage, but... [laughs]

TI: Right, when you had to learn Japanese. Let's talk about regular school. How did you like regular school?

KT: I didn't do too good, because when I was in the third grade I cut my left eye, and being in the country, the doctor didn't treat it right, it got infected and I lost the sight. And I had a hard time reading. I get tired of reading, so mostly I relied on just hearing what they said. So I don't know, I wasn't an honor student or anything like that. [Laughs]

TI: So in third grade, you mentioned this, I guess this cut in your eye. What happened?

KT: We were carving with the knife and everybody was monkeying around, then I was getting something and somebody else was getting something, then he comes up with the knife and he just, all of a sudden I felt the pain. Yeah, I got hurt a lot. Second grade, I fell off the fence and broke my arm.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: How about some other memories about Auburn? Before the war, what else can you think about in terms of strong memories growing up?

KT: Going fishing a lot.

TI: And this is in the, what, the Duwamish River, or the White --

KT: Yeah, some of it was. A lot of it was, like going after squid in the Sound, squidding. And one time, with my buddies, we went up to Point Defiance and rented a boat and rode out to, it was probably where the Narrows Bridge is now, I don't know. We used to go in that area. We saw a tako.

TI: So an octopus?

KT: Yeah, a big octopus, so we went and caught that. That was a big memory for me, was catching that. They gaffed it, but they said they gaff it, it'll come to the boat and it'll grab on the boat and then it'll go down and get away. So once you gaff it, then you got to push him. You got to sort of suspend him in the water then go on land, and that's what we did.

TI: So in the boat you would gaff it, but you'd keep it away from the boat and it would keep holding onto the pole, I guess.

KT: Push him away with one pole and be pulling him with the other pole, and you have one here and then you run the boat on the shore, then you run up on the shore and then you got a sack and you put his head in and lift it up.

TI: And so how big was the octopus?

KT: That thing was, gosh, I don't know. It was, must've been around thirty pounds.

TI: Wow, that's big.

KT: Pretty good size. Maybe tentacles about so long [holds arms out].

TI: And what did you do with it once you caught it?

KT: We split it up and...

TI: And brought it home.

KT: And brought it home. And I think, I think my mother said, "Let's save it for New Year's." So we froze it. We boiled it and then froze it.

TI: And you mentioned squidding, so back then how did you catch squid?

KT: We made a, what we called a, I don't know if this is the correct term, but a herring rake. We bought a, it might be like a flooring, straight grain fir, about eight feet long, and we'd shave it in sort of an oval shape and then we'd punch holes in there, and we get piano wire and you cut it and you sharpen one edge, and you put in a plier and you hit the plier and you drive it in these little holes. About that much on the end [indicates a couple feet] would be these things sticking out. And we'd ride a boat out there, looking around, and they're sort of fluorescent, the squid, so they'll be swimming by, and they go in schools, so the first bunch you don't want to disturb. You let 'em go by a little bit, and then after that you can, no matter what you do they just keep coming.

TI: And so you're just, like, hooking them kind of.

KT: You just run that pole right through 'em.

TI: And it kind of impales them?

KT: They, yeah, it, they get impaled by this wire. And then you lock it on the side of the boat and dump it in the boat, and then the other guys'll be putting it in the bucket.

TI: Wow. Was that a common way to get -- I've never heard...

KT: Yeah. We all did that.

TI: Interesting.

KT: Now they jig for 'em, but --

TI: Yeah, that's what I'm familiar with, the jigging.

KT: Yeah, I guess them days we, everybody's doing the way we were doing because you get a whole mess of 'em that way. Maybe it's illegal now, I don't know.

TI: And whereabouts in Puget Sound did you do this?

KT: It was up there by Point Defiance.

TI: Okay, so again, by Tacoma.

KT: There was a boathouse there. We'd rent the boat at the boathouse and row out there, not too far, and we'd scout around for 'em.

TI: And then also, like salmon fishing, did you do very much salmon fishing?

KT: I didn't do any salmon fishing. I did once, but we didn't get anything. A friend of mine had a boat, so we played hooky and went salmon fishing, but no, no salmon.

TI: So who were some of your friends, growing up in Auburn, that you hung around with?

KT: There's a guy named Frank Tsujii, Roy Oyama, Tom Yoshida, those are my good friends.

TI: Okay. That's good. So you have a good memory that you can remember that. So you were born 1923, so what year did you graduate from high school?

KT: '41.

TI: Okay, so June 1941.

KT: Yeah.

TI: And what did you do after you graduated?

KT: My dad said, "If you don't know what to do, why don't you work on the railroad?" So he talked to his foreman, and so there was an opening there so I got a job there. And this Roy Oyama got a job, and the foreman's sons, they were both working there, and one other guy I, Yuzuru Watanabe. There were about five of us worked for the railroad. Then the war started and we all got canned. [Laughs]

TI: So let's talk first about, so what was your, what did you do with the railroad, what kind of work?

KT: We did...

TI: The gandy dancing?

KT: Yeah. Track maintenance.

TI: And then cleaning out freight cars and things like that?

KT: No, we didn't clean out the freight cars. We, most of us is out in the track, working track.

TI: Now, was that, coming out of high school, was that supposed to be a pretty good job, working for the railroad?

KT: No, it wasn't. It was something to do, I guess.

TI: Okay.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: So let's go to December 7, 1941. Do you remember that day, or can you tell me what you did that day?

KT: I, one guy came, showed up and he said, "Hey, take me," he worked at Pacific National Lumber and he said he wanted a ride up there. And he said something about the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, so I said, "What?" And of course, then we got a paper and I read the paper, and it says something about there's gonna be, war's gonna be declared on Japan, etcetera, etcetera. So I gave him a ride up to this Pacific National 'cause he worked up there in that lumber. And I don't know, after that, we must've just worked for the railroad for another month or so and then they canned us all.

TI: All the Japanese workers.

KT: Yeah. That's the funny thing, they canned all the Niseis, but my dad kept working.

TI: Really? That would be, was he working for the railroad or for a contractor?

KT: No, for the railroad.

TI: For the railroad.

KT: Yeah, he was cleaning cars and things like that.

TI: That's, because I always thought they, they fired all the --

KT: I think maybe they were there such a long time they sort of...

TI: Or was it the nature of the work? I mean, if, were any of the Isseis left working the tracks or, like fixing the tracks? Or were they, like your dad was cleaning freight cars, I can see where they might say, "Well, someone could sabotage the ties or something that could cause a derailment or something." I was just curious if...

KT: I don't know. They, anyway, I guess they weren't sure what they were gonna do, and then about a month later they said, "We're gonna..." what did they call it? "We're running out of work." Which was an excuse, I guess.

TI: I want to go back to December 7, 1941. Do you recall, like, the reaction of your parents when they heard about the fact that the United States and Japan were gonna be at war?

KT: Well, they were mostly worried about Takeshi, the older brother, second brother.

TI: So tell me why they were worried about Takeshi.

KT: 'Cause he was drafted in November and he was stationed in Fort Warren, Wyoming, so he was drafted before the war started.

TI: Well, how about Satoshi?

KT: Yeah, Satoshi?

TI: Satoshi.

KT: Yeah, he was drafted February of '42. That was another kind of weird thing, because a lot of the Niseis were being given the convenience of the government discharge because of the war, because they were Japanese, but here my brother Satoshi is, February the 2nd he was drafted. And so we were discussing that and one guy said, "Yeah," says, "The Kent draft board, probably they had a quota to send, and guys saw all these hakujin names and said, 'Hey, here's a guy, let's send him.'" [Laughs] Yeah, so they sent Shadow, Satoshi.

TI: So I don't quite get that. Why would they, they thought that Satoshi's name looked...

KT: Because they, that would keep them from selecting one of the hakujin boys that they knew.

TI: But they, 'cause they, it was a numbers game. They had to send, like, so many.

KT: They had a quota to fill and they filled it with... so then we were wondering, all these guys, like at Fort Lewis they were given the convenience of government discharge, and here he was working in Seattle at the time, so he went down to the armory and they swore him in and they sent him to Arkansas, Camp Joseph Robinson, Arkansas.

TI: Now, during that time, were very many other Japanese being drafted at the same time Satoshi was?

KT: I don't know. I don't know.

TI: Yeah, it's kind of interesting because it's different in different locales, I guess depends on the local draft board.

KT: I didn't think they were taking any Japanese because they were releasing so many from the draft. But then I knew a Seattle boy, Junso, Junso Tsuchiya, now he volunteered when the war started and he was, they took him.

TI: 'Cause I've interviewed others who tried to volunteer and they were, they were...

KT: Yeah, they wouldn't take 'em.

TI: They wouldn't take 'em, yeah. So again, it's probably like a localized decision.

KT: Yeah, I was surprised that Junso was taken, which, the way I found this out was every time they would pay at Camp Savage, payroll, you'd go by rank, but the, Junso was a PFC and the first guy to get paid was Junso Tsuchiya.

TI: And you knew him, so you always said, "How come you get paid?" [Laughs]

KT: Yeah, and he said, "Because I'm regular army." And I said, "How is it you're regular army?" He said, "Because when the war started I volunteered and they, I enlisted," and he said, "They gave me the regular army serial number." So regular army was paid first, and then all these draftees.

TI: Interesting.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: Going back to you, so about a month after the war broke out you lost your railroad job.

KT: Yeah.

TI: So what did you think about that? Did you, yeah, did you have any thoughts or remember how you felt?

KT: Well, it, we started back on the farm. We started working the farm a little bit, and then... of course, all the Niseis are grumbling and they said, "Well, why..." then word come out that we were gonna be evacuated. They said, "Now, why should we be raising this if we're gonna just leave the crop?" And then a lot of 'em didn't do anything, and then some people, town people come around and they said, "For the war effort, you should go ahead and do, work, produce." [Laughs]

TI: Now, who were these town people? Were they Japanese or were they --

KT: No, no.

TI: They were --

KT: They were hakujin, yeah.

TI: And did they do it in a threatening way, or did they do it in just --

KT: No.

TI: Now, were these people that you knew?

KT: Yeah.

TI: And how did you feel about that, knowing that maybe you won't be around to harvest the crops?

KT: Well, I understood that. You're gonna have to have food, and we raised everything and put in an early crop like spinach and onion and stuff like that. But it's the old Japanese, shikata ga nai. [Laughs]

TI: Now, during those months after December 7th, before you went to Pinedale, did you have any anti-Japanese incidents or anything that happened to you?

KT: No, I didn't. I didn't. In fact, there's a couple of guys used to come with the car -- we had an eight o'clock curfew -- and they had a blanket and they'd come with the car, and we'd get in the back and put the blanket over us, and they'd go. [Laughs]

TI: So you were defying the curfew order. You were, you were going against curfew.

KT: Yeah.

TI: And where would you go in the car? What would you do?

KT: One of the other guys' home or something. Just to be going out, I guess, not really, didn't matter where we went or what we did.

TI: Now, what would happen if you got caught, if you were out --

KT: I have no idea. [Laughs]

TI: So you never heard of anyone getting caught being out there over the curfew.

KT: No.

TI: Now, I'm curious, you're a longtime, your family lived in Auburn for a long time, did you know, like, the policemen and people like that in Auburn?

KT: No. It's a funny thing, they all kept away from you, most of 'em. The high school kids that we knew, they came around, but there was only one family that came and said goodbye. That was... our family used to live in east Auburn and we had some hakujin friends there, and then we moved to west Auburn, and these guys, I was surprised that some of these guys that lived in east Auburn came, they drove in, they drive in, I looked and said, "I wonder what the hell he wants." Then he came and said he was sorry that we were being chased out of our family home and all that.

TI: And what did that make you think, or how did that make you feel when he did that?

KT: I felt good about that, actually. This guy's a real friend. He's a lot older guy, and him and his wife came. But I didn't have any other trouble or anything like that.

TI: Okay.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: Well, eventually you and the rest of your family got the order that you had to leave, and this is around, like April or so, that you were, you're gonna have to leave. So what happened to the farm and all your other belongings?

KT: Well, all the personal belongings, we put 'em in crates and stuff and we stored 'em at, what was the, Natsuhara, Natsuhara had a big store that dealt in fertilizer and all kind of Japanese food and stuff, so they had a huge building. And not only us but I think a lot of the Japanese stored their things there. Course, a lot of the things were broken into. During the war the guys broke in there and they lost a lot of things, I guess, but who knows.

TI: And then, like your farm, the crops and everything, the tools, what happened to all that?

KT: There was a, there was something like a farm management corporation or something, and they were supposed to take over and harvest the crop and pay us. And to operate they had borrowed money from the government, and then, I don't know, this is maybe a year later, there was a meeting and we went to the meeting and they said the, the farm management, they're unable to pay the government back so they're unable to pay us too. And the thing was, if we sued them and then the government'll take the money first so we wouldn't get anything, but if we let 'em operate there might be a chance for us to, they might be successful, then they'll be able to pay us. So they all, so the guy sat down and said, "Hey, they didn't do anything. We did all the labor, and all they went in and did, went in and harvest this thing and they couldn't make any money. How're they gonna make money if they have to produce the stuff?" So they said no, let the government take the money, and I don't know, they must've sued 'em or something. I don't know who was running all this stuff. I think it was a farm management corporation or something.

TI: And who were these people in farm management corporation?

KT: They were, I don't know. They were like carpetbaggers, I guess. They had us, saw a chance to make money. The story at the time was that they hired everybody and their family, give 'em a big monthly salary and that's why they ran out of money. But who knows, all that's rumor.

TI: And as, so the farm management corporation, when they took over the farm they had all the tools and everything there also? [KT nods] And so when the farm management corporation was done, what happened to everything?

KT: I have no idea.

TI: So you essentially lost all that.

KT: Yeah.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: So let's go back to you and your family. So April 1942 you have to leave Auburn, so where does the family go?

KT: We went to a train station and then they took us to Pinedale.

TI: And when you say took you, so who was in the family that went with you? So it was you, your parents, and who else?

KT: Frank and the girls.

TI: So Mae and Lola.

KT: Lola, and Ben, Yukimi, Mae, Lola, and Ben, me, and Hitoshi, or Frank.

TI: So it's pretty big, so there're, looks like eight of you, six kids and two parents. So you, Yukimi, Mae, Lola, Ben, and Frank, so six kids and then your parents.

KT: Yeah.

[Interruption]

TI: Okay, so we were just talking about the family going to Pinedale, and it included you, Frank, Yukimi, Mae, Lola, and Ben?

KT: Yeah.

TI: And then your parents.

KT: Yeah.

TI: And we're, I guess, commenting that Frank was probably about twenty-six years old.

KT: Twenty-six or twenty-seven.

TI: And what was Frank doing before the war started? What kind of work was he doing?

KT: He went to, he went to L.A. for a while, working for some other Japanese. I don't know what he was doing there. Then he came back, then he was farming with us.

TI: Okay. And then your other two brothers, Takeshi and Satoshi, were --

KT: They were both in the army.

TI: -- in the army at that point. Now, why didn't Frank go into the army?

KT: Well, he must've been too old or the draft number didn't call him.

TI: Okay. So yeah, he, he kind of missed that. So tell me about Pinedale. What were your first impressions of Pinedale when you got there?

KT: It was hot and dusty. [Laughs]

TI: And tell me about your living quarters for the family.

KT: They had, well, tarpaper shacks, and they had their cots, steel cots with mattresses, and blankets I guess, army blankets. But that's what it was, it was hot and dusty. In fact, we saw some Japanese guys drive by, across the fence. And they said, "Don't worry, we'll be joining you guys maybe," or something.

TI: So they were the locals.

KT: Yeah, they were locals that weren't evacuated yet.

TI: Okay.

KT: It's just like when the Seattle people here were sent to...

TI: Puyallup, right.

KT: Puyallup, yeah, we were still out.

TI: So you could go by there.

KT: We could go to Puyallup and visit them.

TI: So did you ever do that? Did you ever kind of --

KT: I didn't, but my mother did.

TI: Okay. Any other memories of Pinedale? It looks like you were there for about four months or so.

KT: I don't remember too much of Pinedale, other than they were digging, they had jackhammers and they were digging these huge pits. I don't know what for. But later on they said Pinedale was gonna become a Signal Corps center or something, so they were probably getting ready for, I don't know what.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: Okay, so later on that summer, like around July 1942, you leave Pinedale, and where do you go next?

KT: Well, Tule Lake.

TI: And tell me your first impressions of Tule Lake. What did you think?

KT: I thought it was a pretty good place. [Laughs]

TI: Compared to Pinedale.

KT: Good, yeah, good air and the...

TI: Okay. And when you were at Pinedale, did you ever have a job? Did you ever get a job at Pinedale?

KT: No.

TI: So what are some of your memories? This first time you're at Tule Lake, what are some of your memories?

KT: Tule Lake, well, we just bumbled around, just buddies trying to find out where everybody lived.

TI: All your friends kind of?

KT: Yeah.

TI: Now, how about other families, where did they come from? Where, other parts of the country or the West Coast, where were they from?

KT: They were Tule, Tule Lake. They said a lot of 'em were from Sacramento, Sacramento and Placer County, Auburn, California I guess. And I don't know too much about, other than people that went from here.

TI: Now, did you sense, or were there any differences between, say, the Japanese Americans from Auburn, the community feeling there, versus maybe Sacramento or different ones, did you see differences?

KT: Yeah, I think there's quite a bit of difference. One thing, there was quite a bit of animosity between the two. I don't know why, why this, who started it or why they were... but they used to call the guys from Sacramento yogore. [Laughs]

TI: And so kind of like bad boys, that kind of, a sense.

KT: Yeah.

TI: What did they say about the Auburn people?

KT: I don't know. I really didn't, never... I don't even really remember anybody getting in a fight with 'em or anything. It's just that... yeah, I really don't.

TI: But when you say animosity, then, how would that kind of manifest itself? How did you see animosity between --

KT: Because they were, I guess some of them guys were threatened, so they were, one time they said, this one kid is a fast runner, so they said, "We'll send him over and attract their attention, then he can run back real fast and we could be waiting behind this barrack and jump on 'em when they come." [Laughs] And things like that, that's why I said there was some, there was some heat there in the, but I never saw any of that.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: In my notes I have you, after a few months at Tule Lake, that you got a permit to work outside, at the railroad?

KT: Yeah.

TI: So tell me about that. How did you get this job?

KT: Well, this, this Japanese foreman in Auburn, his son, I don't know how he found out, but he found out there were jobs to work on a track in Klamath Falls, and he and his brother and their friends, they all signed up. And -- [sneezes] excuse me -- and so I, and he knew me and I'd worked on the railroad with him, so he said, "I signed you up too." So he said, "You want to go?" I said, "Oh, okay." [Laughs] Make more money.

TI: Make more money, and you were experienced too. I mean, you knew the job already, how to do things.

KT: Yeah, so I went to Klamath Falls and we got out. One day this kid and I, we walked to Klamath Falls and went to a movie. We came back out and we were walking down, and the Oregon State Patrol picked us up and said, and he hauled us to the patrol office and he said, "We don't know, but," he says, "some people, they may not like you walking around like that, being Japanese," etcetera, etcetera. So, because they have people in the army and blah blah blah, so I say, "Yeah, I know." I said, "I got two brothers in the army, so I know how that goes." And then he said, well, blah blah blah, he's talking some more. And I had a letter from Camp Savage, so I showed him that, and he says yeah, but it would be wise if we didn't go wandering around. So yeah, we, he says, "You can go now." So we walked outside and it's raining, so I looked back in and I says, "Hey, give us a ride back. It's raining out there." And he did. He sent a patrol car and he took us back to where the railroad sidecars are.

TI: And that's where your housing was, right there?

KT: Yeah, a track, we were on, it's a freight car with windows cut into it with bunks inside. Yeah, he gave us a ride back. I was surprised.

TI: And how many of you from Tule Lake were working there?

KT: Gosh, there was a guy named George Kanda, Akira, Ray, me, there was a guy named, somebody from Portland named Yamaguchi, Tambara... I don't know, must be ten, at least ten.

TI: Now, were the, was the management ever, like, careful with you guys? I mean, here in Auburn you were fired because they fired all the Japanese, but here they hired them. Was, so what's the difference? Why weren't they concerned in Klamath Falls?

KT: I don't know. I don't know why they hired us. They probably needed us. And there was about four or five Kibeis, Issei and Kibeis mixed up, four or five.

TI: And do you recall what kind of pay you got working at the railroad?

KT: We were getting, I think, about six dollars a day.

TI: Wow, so a lot more than what people in camp were getting.

KT: Oh yeah. Camp was paying us sixteen.

TI: A month, right?

KT: Yeah, sixteen a month. We were getting six dollars a day. I think we were paying a dollar for food.

TI: And how was the work? Was it, was it okay working there?

KT: Yeah.

TI: Okay.

KT: We'd done the work before. We know what to do.

TI: But then after, again, several months, you decided to quit that job.

KT: Well, Roy Oyama and Frank Tsujii and Tok Otsuka and Joe Ono, they're saying they're gonna all go to Ontario to work. So I politely told the boss that I'm gonna quit, and so I quit and I went back, and I think April, April 1st or something, we headed for Ontario, Oregon, on the bus.

TI: So you would, you wanted to be with your friends more than anything. They were going to Ontario to do farm, farm work.

KT: Yeah. Potatoes and sugar beets.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: Before, so after you quit the railroad job, so this is the Great Northern Railroad, when you went back to Tule Lake, did you notice any changes at Tule Lake from the first time you were there, you were out for a while, then you went back in for a little bit?

KT: No, I didn't see any.

TI: Okay. Because I'm thinking about the, kind of the turmoil, because you had the "loyalty questionnaire" and things like that, I was wondering if that ever affected you and your friends.

KT: No, not really. Let's see, when was that? In September of that year they were, segregation started and they were sending, like my folks were supposed to go to Topaz, Utah, and my older brother Frank says he doesn't want to go back, says, "Why don't you go back?"

TI: Back to Utah, you mean?

KT: No, back to Tule Lake from Ontario.

TI: I see, so Frank went with you up to Ontario too.

KT: Well, Frank was in Caldwell, working at Caldwell. He went himself. Anyway, I...

TI: So you and Frank talked because you felt someone should go back and help your parents.

KT: Yeah, so I said, "Okay, I'll go back." And I went back and I helped the family move to Topaz.

TI: Okay. And that was so your parents, the way they filled out the "loyalty questionnaire," or the leave clearance form, was, I guess, "yes-yes" in terms of those questions and things like that?

KT: I don't know what my parents put or filled out or what. I said, "We got two brothers in the service, so why would I put no?"

TI: And at what point did you fill that out? Were you at Tule Lake to fill it out, or were you --

KT: Yeah, Tule Lake. I was...

TI: Okay, so you saw all that. Now, when you, when people were filling that out, was it a difficult time in camp? Was there a lot of tension? Do you recall?

KT: I don't know. I don't... different, that Tule Lake is a huge camp and we hear things that this happened or that happened, but I'm not really sure. They had meetings. I remember going to a meeting on the yes or no or this and that, so some of the guys said they would answer yes on one and put no on the other and things like that. So I don't know.

TI: Okay.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: So let's talk about Ontario, Oregon. So what was the connection to Ontario? Why were people going there?

KT: There was a guy named Shig Murakami, I don't know where he's from. He must've been from Bellevue or something. He, I don't know, there's a history behind him getting married to some gal and going to L.A. and then he ended up in Ontario, but he was a foreman for a potato rancher named Bybee and I guess he needed workers. So they had a house, his wife was cooking and then he was the foreman out in the field, and he would tell us what to do and she would cook our meals. And we'd pay, I forget what we were paying. But he, I guess he's the one that asked for these laborers to come to Oregon. That's why I went there.

TI: Now, was he getting workers from different camps, like Minidoka and Tule Lake, or just Tule Lake?

KT: As far as I know, it was just Tule Lake.

TI: Okay. And tell me about the work. Was it good work at the, at this farm?

KT: Sugar beet, he showed us a sugar beet farm and said, "We're gonna block beets." I said, "What's block beets?" He said, "You thin out, thin out the, every about eight inches you cut out and you leave one plant. Then you go a little bit like that and you leave another plant." They give you a little hoe -- a hoe's like that [holds up hands to show size], but the handle's cut off, so about so long -- and you bend over and you go down this row like this. So what do we get paid? We get six dollars a day, or you can contract labor and say, I forget what he said, thirteen dollars an acre or something. So I says, "I don't know, I'll just go by the day." And that first day I worked, worked, worked all the way; at the end of the day I couldn't stand up. So flipped the hoe and I sat on the hoe like that, and I just stayed there for I don't know long, 'cause my back was just like that. That was hard work. That's the hardest work I ever done.

TI: Now, why do they cut, make the hoes short? Why wouldn't they keep it long so you could stand up?

KT: Because you're closer to your work and you can really go fast cutting that. If it was long and the plant is down there you might cut some of the ones that you wanted to leave.

TI: So by being closer you could, you're closer, you could see better and do it. But then it's backbreaking work, then. You're just, you're stooped over all day.

KT: Yeah. The rest of the work was just regular farm work. You cut potatoes, and they harvest the potatoes, you got to buck 'em up, throw 'em on the truck, they're in sacks and you throw 'em on the truck and stuff like that. But that sugar beet was, that was hard work for me. I think that's why I need a cane now when I walk.

<End Segment 15> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 16>

TI: Earlier you mentioned that when you were in Klamath Falls there was some kind of anti-Japanese feeling, just like the police officer saying you shouldn't be walking around. How was it in Ontario?

KT: There was some, there were some kids. Tok Otsuka's from Vashon and he's kind of dark, but he's got that more, I don't know, what would you say, like Okinawa type look, and a guy called him a Mexican. Then he said, "Oh, he's not a Mexican. He's a Jap." And then -- no, it wasn't Tok, it was Joe Ono, and he was short, so they picked on the shortest guy amongst us and the guy jumped on him. But that broke up right away 'cause they found out that Joe had a lot of backers. [Laughs]

TI: So who were these people that jumped Joe? I mean, who were they?

KT: Kids, young kids coming out of the movie.

TI: Kids, meaning like high school kids kind of?

KT: Yeah, about high school age.

TI: And so Joe, so he had friends there, so they broke it up.

KT: Yeah, they changed their mind and they left right away.

TI: What were some other memories of that time in Ontario that you have? You talked about sort of the backbreaking work and the movie theater, but what were some other...

KT: I don't know. Just having to eat the same food every day practically because we were, most of it was rice and stew. [Laughs] But that was alright. I didn't care.

TI: Now, you had this kind of choice. You could sort of stay at Tule Lake and all your food would be taken care of, you wouldn't have to work as hard, or be at places like Klamath Falls or Ontario where it sounds like it was pretty hard work. So how did you think about that choice? Why did you choose one over the other?

KT: Because actually you're kind of free, when you go out, you leave 'em. Like Ontario, we went to the movies, we went to restaurants. Well, I don't know, everything else is about the same, I guess. I didn't... the main thing was, when we worked on the railroad in Klamath Falls they took us up in the hills to a place called Chemult, and there was snow up there, like maybe seven feet level ground, and we have to clean the snow off of the switch. This was in Pacific and the Great Northern came together there, and that was our job, clearing snow off of the switches and the side track. That was cold. Train come in, a bunch of sailors on there, "Look at the Indians." Blah blah blah. So no sooner than that, some guy said, "They're not Indians, they're the J word." [Laughs] So we make snowballs.

TI: And so when, when people called you, I guess the J word, or "Jap," what did that make you feel like, back then?

KT: Well, it made you feel like you wanted to him 'em right smack in the nose. But I don't know.

TI: Okay. Earlier you talked about, so September 1943 you went back to Tule Lake to help your parents move to Topaz, so tell me about that. When you went back to Tule Lake, so it's now becoming a segregation camp, did you notice any differences at Tule Lake this time?

KT: Not really. It was just that we were mostly packing and taking our suitcases down the railhead. I remember getting on the truck and some of the people that were staying, they were out there saying, "Lots of luck. Bye." They thought that they would be going back to Japan and they would have a good time there or something, but I don't know.

TI: How about your parents? How were they at this time? Did they talk very much about what they were thinking or feeling?

KT: No, they weren't, they were pretty well set on staying there.

TI: Because I'm guessing that lots of the other Isseis are probably talking to them about maybe going to Japan also?

KT: I think a lot of them were saying that, but I don't think my parents were going back. They, they... in fact, I heard one Japanese guy say that, "Oh, you look at that list," and he says, "A lot of them people have big debts and they figured that's one way of getting rid of their debt, is going back to Japan."

TI: So sort of like a fresh start for people.

KT: Yeah. This is, to them it's not Japan or the U.S. or anything, it's just that it's a personal thing.

<End Segment 16> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 17>

TI: I'm gonna ask you later if you ever saw anyone from Tule Lake when you were in Japan, but before we get there, let's talk about Topaz. So your parents are going to Topaz with your younger siblings, so tell me about Topaz. What was Topaz like?

KT: Topaz was, I thought it was nice. In fact, I got a job working as a cook in the kitchen. I made a lot of salad and it was up to me to make the coffee. I was, my brothers, both of 'em were there on furlough, same time, and they came through the mess line and we had eggplant, breaded eggplant and we'd deep fry 'em. And he said, "What is that?" He said, "I thought it was a veal cutlet." [Laughs] Then he said, "It's just like an army mess. You never get what you want."

TI: So both Frank and Takeshi were on leave at the same time.

KT: Satoshi, yeah.

TI: I'm sorry, yeah, Satoshi. Satoshi or...

KT: Hitoshi was in --

TI: Okay, yeah, that's right, Takeshi and Satoshi.

KT: Yeah, Hitoshi was in Caldwell.

TI: That's right. Right, so Takeshi and Satoshi. Who were they assigned to? Were they 442, or which unit were they?

KT: No. Shadow was Signal Corps, I think.

TI: And so what was he doing with the Signal Corps?

KT: Gosh, I don't know. Anyway, he went to Fort Monmouth in New Jersey, which is a Signal Corps place, from Arkansas, then he came to Savage. I was in the mess hall, guy hollers my name, "Hey, Kiyo." So I look, I was wondering who knows me as Kiyo there, and I looked and it was my brother, Satoshi. So he must've taken a language exam or something and they sent him to Savage. And other brother was in, Takeshi was in Camp Barkeley, Texas, and he was, I don't know, he was there for a while and then he went back to Fort Warren again. I don't know what he was doing. And then later on they shipped him out to, I think it was 104th Division or something, to Europe.

TI: Okay. You mentioned that your brother said Kiyo, and people didn't call you Kiyo back then, I guess, the others. What did people call you when you were in the army?

KT: In the army, most of 'em would call me Tooch or Tsuchida.

TI: Tooch or Tsuchida, okay. So that was kind of your nickname, Tooch?

KT: Well, they called Shadow, Satoshi, Tooch, most of the guys. In fact, I met a guy, I knew this guy on the ship going to Japan, my third trip back to Japan or something, and I'm trying to think of his name, but one day I saw him in the commissary. He says, "Hey, for two years I thought your brother was you." [Laughs]

TI: Because they, the same name.

KT: Yeah, he was with Satoshi.

TI: Well, did the two of you kind of look alike?

KT: I guess so, to him we did.

TI: Okay.

<End Segment 17> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 18>

TI: So let's go back to Topaz. You said you were working as a cook, and your two brothers came to the line and he talked about the eggplant.

KT: Then they left, and then I went to Ogden where my sister was. My sister got, from Tule Lake, Yukimi got married to a guy name Yonetani. He's from Japan, about the same place they grew up near. Anyway, he's a Kibei, so... and she said, "You can stay with us while I work in Utah." So I went there and I was looking around for a job, and that artist, Paul Horiuchi, he had a trailer right next to my sister and her husband. They rent a big house and part of the house was rented out to a guy named Matsu Sakagami, judo guy, and Sunao Iiwai, and who else? Some guy from Tacoma named, I think his name was Okada. But they were renting, and then in the lot next door, there was a trailer there and Paul Horiuchi and Bernadette and the kids were there, John and Paul. So Paul was working at a concrete pipe company and he said, "Come work there," so I went there to work. Of course, we were working a graveyard shift, night time. Anyway, I got to meet Paul, so when I come to Bon Odori and I see Paul, he says, "Hey, Kiyo, ano toki erakattano," he says. 'Cause we, one time we unloaded cement from the freight cars, sacks of cement. They all weigh a hundred pounds and we got, what, five cents a sack or something, and he got a couple of cents and I got -- no, he got a cent and a half and I think I got a cent and a half, and then a big Swede down below, he got two cents. [Laughs] Anyway, we unloaded that whole freight car, but Paul, he...

TI: Now, back then was he doing any artwork?

KT: Oh yeah, he was painting, from his trailer he looked in the back, back of Ogden there, some of the buildings and stuff he was painting. He was doing a lot of little paintings and stuff. I don't know what he did with those, but that was '43. And then '47 or something I was on leave and I come here, and I saw him and he said he was a body fender, '46 maybe, body fender and he's painting cars. And then I heard that he had made a painting and it won honorable mention, which had an award of sixteen thousand dollars. So I says, "When did you know that you were an artist, success as an artist and make money, making a living painting?" He said it's when, what's his name, I forget his name now, but he played The Life of Reilly, some actor, Bill Bendix or something.

TI: Yeah, I know who you, yeah.

KT: Yeah, he came up to buy several of his paintings. When these actors and people like that, they come to invest money in what you do, and he says that means you're a success.

TI: So he was getting known and people were coming just to buy his paintings.

KT: Yeah.

TI: Interesting. Now, so before, so you knew him before he was really thought of as a, as a professional artist, when you saw him at...

KT: I knew him when he, when we were eating lunch and he had a, some kind of a magazine that had a picture of "Blue Boy" in there. He's showing me the thing, and then he said, "I'd rather, I'd rather watch this than to eat," he said.

[Interruption]

TI: So he really loved his art. He just really was passionate about.

KT: Yeah, yeah. He got really famous.

<End Segment 18> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 19>

TI: So any other stories about Ogden, Utah, before we go, so next we'll go to, I guess, when you were at Ogden, Utah I think you were contacted by the army about the MIS?

KT: No, I was contacted before, but I didn't know enough. I was --

TI: This was...

KT: -- they were scraping the bottom of the barrel when they called me in Utah, and they said report to Fort Douglas for a physical.

TI: And this was specifically for the MIS, to do, to be a linguist?

KT: Yeah.

TI: Okay.

KT: 'Cause I volunteered for the MIS. And so I went to Fort Douglas and I took my physical, and he said, "You're 4-F. You can't see out of your left eye." So I said, "Oh, okay." And I went back to, at that time I was working for Wasatch Motors and the guy said, "Oh, good," he says, "I want to get some guy and train him for diesel mechanic school." So he says all of the people he trained were all drafted, so he said, "You're 4-F," he said, "Boy, that's it." So he said, "We'll make arrangements to send you to school. And now," and this is in December, says, "Right now, then you'll be ready this spring to go out in the field and work on these tractors and stuff." Next thing you know, I get a telegram saying, "Report back to Fort Douglas." So I go back to Fort Douglas and they say, "Go to this building and draw a uniform." I said, "Hey, they told me I was 4-F." "No, you're in the army now." [Laughs]

TI: So they needed --

KT: Yeah, they swore me in, they swore me in and gave me a uniform and a travel voucher and some money, and told me to catch a train and go to Minnesota.

TI: Because they needed linguists so much, they kind of looked beyond the medical deferment.

KT: [Laughs] I guess so.

TI: Now, why did you want to join the MIS? I mean, you said you volunteered early. What was the interest in MIS?

KT: I had two brothers in the service and I figure when you're roaming around outside it's a lot better than walking around in camp. Yeah, I think in late, late '42 I think I volunteered. When I was in Ontario I got a questionnaire and a little test, and I guess I didn't do good on the test because they said, "We'll contact you later." You know, it's one of those "don't call us, we'll call you" businesses. And it was December of '43 that they, yeah.

TI: So I'm curious, when you got to Camp Savage and you start the Japanese classes, courses, how was that for you? Was it, the studying and the learning the language, how was that?

KT: It was very, very hard. Very difficult, yeah. I'm not a scholar or guy that studies a lot, so I don't have no system, but some of them guys, they, when you learn kanji, they're giving us, there's more like a hundred kanjis that you -- and how can you learn that? It's beyond me. I thought I was gonna wash out of there, but I don't know, somehow or another I managed to struggle through that. In fact, after six months they wanted the volunteers to go to Camp McCoy, Wisconsin, and be MPs, to handle prisoners of war overseas, Japanese prisoners. So I volunteered for that, and they said, "No, we can't take you." I said, "Why?" And that guy said, "Hey, we spent three, four thousand dollars on you, teaching you Japanese." He said, "You can flunk every test for next three months, and," he said, "we'll still run you through." [Laughs] Yeah, they wouldn't flunk me out.

TI: But at this point, with all your training, you were too valuable to be just an MP. They wanted you more as a linguist, is what they thought.

KT: Anyway, this, took the nine month... and like I say, I'm not a bookworm, so that was a hard life for me. [Laughs]

<End Segment 19> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 20>

TI: Okay, so Kiyo, we're gonna get started again. And where we left the last one was we had just finished your training at Camp Savage and then (Fort) Snelling, and then you did some basic training, and so why don't we go to the Philippines. And first tell me, about when did you arrive in the Philippines? Do you remember when that was?

KT: Sometime in July.

TI: July 1945?

KT: Yes.

TI: So right before the war ends. I mean, this is... so July 1945, so tell me what your first impressions are? I mean, what did you see when you got to the Philippines?

KT: Hot, steamy. I thought the people weren't too tall. That's about it, I guess.

TI: How about, what were you thinking about in terms of where the war was going? You know, I guess now we know that the war was almost over, but this was before the atomic bomb and I think there were plans that there was gonna be some invasion to the Japanese islands and all that.

KT: Yeah.

TI: I mean, what did you think your role was gonna be going forward at this point?

KT: I saw some paperwork one time where it said that they were gonna make a feint in north Japan, but actually we were gonna land on Kyushu or something, and I thought we would... they sent a hundred and fifty linguists to the Philippines. I was one of the hundred and fifty, and I figured, well, they're grooming us for that invasion. I think it was a hundred and fifty, and then a hundred and something went to India. And I don't know why, they were probably gonna come through China or something. I don't know. Anyway, I ended up on the Philippines, and more practice work. We're doing translation, but it's not real documents. They're magazines and just anything in general. And then, then they dropped the atomic bomb and they said that Japan accepted the unconditional surrender.

TI: And how did that make you feel? What did you think when you heard that, essentially, the war was over?

KT: I was thinking, "Wow, pretty soon we'll be all going home." And then they said, they came over and said, "Hey, pack your bags." So I said, "Where am I going?" He said, "You're going into Manila." So I said okay, and then there were three of us and they sent us to, there was a, right along the bay there was an apartment, Admiral Apartment I think it was -- it was a seven story building, tall building -- and we went there. And later on, the provost marshal came and he looked over the situation. He said, "This is no good." What they intended to do was -- the Admiral Apartments was seven stories but there was an Admiral Apartments annex, which was a three story building -- and they said they weren't, they didn't want to quarter the Japanese there because the Filipinos would go up in the upper floors and throw grenades down in there, so they changed the building to a Rosaria Apartments, which was a two story building, other part of Manila. So that's, Frank says, "What Japanese?" And he said, "Well, it's a surrender team from Japan, for this unconditional surrender. They're coming to receive their instructions, how to, what we're, the U.S. forces expect of them." Etcetera, etcetera. So that's where they sent us, and we were there when they walked in. About eighteen Japanese came in, and --

TI: So these were, like, Japanese officers, military officers?

KT: Military officers, plus civilian ministers I guess.

TI: And these were from, like, Japan, like Tokyo?

KT: Japan, yeah.

TI: Okay. And what's interesting, so you said earlier the, earlier, the Admiral Apartments didn't work because they didn't feel like it'd be safe enough for them because they were concerned the Filipinos would try to kill them?

KT: Yeah, yeah.

TI: And so the Filipinos were, they were worried about that even though the Japanese were essentially, I guess, in custody of the United States? I mean --

KT: Yeah, they still worried. In the hotel, in the lobby and on the landing going upstairs and so forth, our forces had set up machine guns, thirty caliber machine guns to protect the Japanese, because they're there under truce and that would be a shame if they got hurt. [Laughs]

TI: Now, were these all precautionary, or did actually things happen? Did, were there any attacks against the Japanese?

KT: No, there wasn't, but this was a precaution. Had several sentries outside.

TI: Now, before the surrender team came, were there stories of, like Japanese being attacked or anything by the Filipinos, after the, they surrendered?

KT: No, I didn't hear any of that kind of stuff. I heard that there were some Japanese were trying to sneak in the mess line because they were so hungry. [Laughs]

TI: Okay.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 21>

TI: So what was it like sort of guarding the surrender team? I mean, did you have any conversations with any of the Japanese?

KT: Oh yeah. Yeah, in fact, at the Roserio they were on the second floor and we looked out the window, and I says, this other, Takamura, Takamura says, "How does Tokyo look, Japan look?" And he said, "Worse than this." And I looked out there, that area's flat, everything's destroyed. And he says it's worse than that. I thought, wow, that was really... and that, that person spoke, like, Oxford English. He must've been trained in Europe or something. And later, as the team was leaving, one guy came up to, it was Ray Katayama, Sojiro Takamura and myself. We were standing there along with the other people, Harvey Watanabe, and one guy, one officer, Japanese officer comes up to where three, we three, he says, "Anybody from Honolulu?" And Takamura says, "Yeah, I am." He said, "Anybody know Takamura?" And he says, "I'm Takamura." And he said, "You from Honolulu?" He said, "Yeah." And he said, and then about that time General Willoughby started walking towards us, and then that, a lieutenant said, "Michiko's alright," or something, Michi or something. He mentioned a Japanese girl's name and he spun off and he left. And later on Takamura said he has a sister by that name, and this lieutenant came to meet the Sturgis, the ship that we were on when we came in, to meet Takamura. I never did talk to Takamura about that, but apparently his sister married, maybe that was his brother in law, I don't know.

TI: Interesting, so it sounds like Takamura's sister was in Japan and he, and this Japanese officer --

KT: Officer, yeah.

TI: -- let him know --

KT: He's from Hawaii, this officer, because he spoke that Hawaiian type English.

TI: Interesting, okay. So he let him know, even though he was on the Japanese side.

KT: Yeah. And another thing is, about this Takamura, is that, I was reading a Nisei Vets newspaper and it mentioned his name, that a brick was purchased for his, the memorial wall brick with Sojiro Takamura. And then later on I read another article where his, must be his grandson, is UW ROTC, Takamura.

TI: Interesting. But this Japanese officer who was --

KT: Otake.

TI: Otake is his name?

KT: Yeah.

TI: Did you ever see him again after that?

KT: No, I didn't.

TI: When you saw the Japanese officer, this is days after the Japanese surrendered, what was their feelings or demeanor? I mean, what were they like after losing the war?

KT: I don't know. They were just ramrod straight and they come, they didn't even look sideways or nothing, they just come marching right in. They were told their quarters would be on the second floor, and then they go, just march right up. I don't remember anything other than that, except one time we were gonna, for meal, or suppertime, they came and said their dinner, supper's ready, so I went upstairs and told 'em that, "Shokuji no yoi ga dekimashita." Then the lieutenant came after me and he said, "Please bring everything to me, not directly to the general."

TI: So he was kind of like supposed to be the go-between?

KT: He was probably like aide de camp to that general. 'Course, I walked upstairs and I don't see anybody but the general, and he's sitting in the chair looking at me, so what the heck?

TI: Now, how high level were the Japanese officers? So it was, were they like top, top generals?

KT: I think he was a lieutenant general.

TI: Okay, so pretty high, yeah.

KT: Yeah, there was a general Amano, and there was General Kawabe, I think.

TI: And what kind of negotiations or discussions went on? I mean, you mentioned General Willoughby, Willoughby was a very high...

KT: He was a G2, two star general, major general.

TI: Right, so he's a major general. What kind of discussions did they have? Do you know?

KT: I wasn't at, I wasn't at the conference at all, but I'm sure they talked about what facilities were available and how we, our side probably told 'em how many troops are gonna come in and where they're gonna go and so on, so forth. And it was up to them to go back and arrange this. That's my guess. But, because as soon as we went there... they wouldn't let us off the ship until after the thing was signed on the Missouri. That was on September the 2nd.

TI: Okay, this is in --

KT: And as soon as it was signed they let us off, and I remember getting off and walking into Yokohama and around there.

<End Segment 21> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 22>

TI: And so tell me about that, because you're one of the first Americans to walk in Japan after the war.

KT: Yeah, well, there was others there, and I said, I asked a guard -- there was a soldier there, sentry at the, one of the hotels there -- and I says, "What's going on?" Says, "General MacArthur's coming out." So three of us, I think there were three of us, we stood on the curb waiting and waiting and waiting. I think we must've been there five, ten, fifteen minutes, and the general came out and got in his car, and away he went. And I said, "Jeez, that was General MacArthur." [Laughs]

TI: What was the reaction of Japanese to Americans in these early days? I mean, how would you...

KT: I don't know, we talked to 'em and they'd talk to us, talk back to us. I didn't see anything.

TI: I've heard stories that the Japanese, or at least some Japanese, were afraid of Americans when they first came into Tokyo because --

KT: Yeah, that's true.

TI: -- because they were told that the Americans would hurt them, rape them, do all these bad things. I mean, did you hear about any of that, or see any evidence of that?

KT: Well -- [coughs] excuse me -- they said to go out and sample the public, Japanese, and we see some Japanese and we walk towards 'em and they'd run. We'd call --

TI: And you were with other Nisei?

KT: Yeah.

TI: Okay.

KT: Yeah, they all ran away. We couldn't talk to any of 'em. Except, I don't know, we had, they set up the mess deal at the... and then they came around, some of 'em, because they wanted food. They were digging in garbage and all that.

TI: But earlier, when you said they would walk away or run away, why would they run away?

KT: Well, they were, I guess the propaganda was that the Americans would kill them or rape 'em or, you know.

TI: So they were afraid of the uniform you were in more than anything.

KT: Yeah.

TI: 'Cause you were Nisei, you probably looked not that different than other Japanese, and then...

KT: They're just looking at the uniform and just run away. I think that was the reason why, is that because they were told that the Americans would...

TI: Yeah, so when you go back, like those early days, so I'm curious, sort of the, I guess the occupation of Japan, like an example would be on September 7th, the kind of, the first days. I mean, were there any ceremonies or anything to indicate that the United States was going to occupy Japan?

KT: There were, us people, we were, got off the Sturgis, we were quartered at the, what they called the silk conditioning mill, and that was our quarters. And they alerted us and said on the 6th, night of the 6th, evening of the 6th, "We're gonna go into Tokyo, and you people will be the advance echelon." And they selected ninety of us, and we got on the truck and left Yokohama and went to Tokyo. We wanted to get there because on the 7th the 1st Cavalry Division was gonna come, and that was gonna be the flag raising ceremony at the American embassy.

TI: So the 1st Cavalry is like an infantry battalion?

KT: Division, yeah.

TI: Division that would come in.

KT: Yeah, all, I don't know where they, must've been Yokohama or someplace, or Zama or someplace they were, and they all trucked in and they were all lined on the road, and General MacArthur came to the embassy and he raised the flag. Or, he didn't raise, but they raised the flag and then he made a little speech. I was, I don't know what I was doing. I was bummin' around and I said, "What's going on in there?" Says, "Oh, the General's gonna raise the flag." And I said, "Oh, okay." So I walk in there and I look, and god, everybody's all lined up. So I sneak around there, looking, and I saw that.

TI: So that's kind of a piece of history that you witnessed then.

KT: [Laughs] Yeah.

<End Segment 22> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 23>

KT: Yeah, and then they sent me to, they said they have an assignment for me, so they took me to the NYK Building. And I thought somebody's gonna be there, and it was only myself and one, one corporal (with a), Carbine, he's supposed to be my bodyguard. And they all left. I'm supposed to clean that building out because ATIS is coming up from Manila on the 18th, they said. I have to get that all clean, everything emptied out.

TI: So this was gonna be a building for the MIS? To, to, and...

KT: Yeah. Six story building, just paper all over. They had records all stacked in the hallway and everything. I had to move it all out.

TI: And just, to be thrown away? Or what happened to these papers?

KT: I don't know. It was up to them. The NYK probably stored 'em someplace, I don't know.

TI: Now, NYK, what kind of company or...

KT: Nihon Yusen Kaisha. It's a steamship company, Nippon Yusen Kaisha.

TI: So essentially the occupation force was taking over the building, so they had to leave, and so you took all their stuff out.

KT: Yeah.

TI: Now, did they have workers to help you? Or did you --

KT: Yeah, they had, gee, they had about two hundred people and a few trucks. Some of the trucks were really broken down, but they never had much food there. Getting 'em to work was another thing. We had a lot of bodies, but, but we got it done. We got everything cleaned. And the officer in charge told me to keep, "Any safe you can't pick up," he says, "leave. And any desk or table wider than your arms spread," he said, "leave. And the rest of the stuff, out." And the six, I think it was a six-four, we put in a mess hall. Then I left that, NYK, and they told me to report to the Daiichi Building where there was General MacArthur's headquarters, to the custodian's office. And I went there, and they weren't being, really cleaning. You can't blame 'em because they're tired and this and that, and no food, but the commandant called me in and said, "I'm gonna call the building manager and I want to really tear into him." So he said, "Use all the gutter language and cuss words you know." So I started in on him, and the colonel says, "Yeah, I think we're gettin' through to him." [Laughs] And then that guy that he chewed out, that happened to be one of the architects for the Daiichi Building.

TI: I'm curious, what were you chewing him out for? I mean, what was the...

KT: Because he's not getting the building clean.

TI: Like fast enough. It's going too slow.

KT: Fast enough, yeah.

TI: 'Cause this was gonna be headquarters, general headquarters.

KT: General MacArthur's headquarters.

TI: And so they...

KT: So the following night I said, "Nobody goes home." They said all the shosen, train, streetcar and stuff, everything was gonna stop at eight. I said, "I don't care. Nobody goes home." And that sort of rubbed them the wrong way, but I said, "You can't go home until we get this place clean." And then I talked to the mess sergeant, and mess sergeants in the army always had something to trade and he had, he said he had some 10 and 1 rations. It's... but he couldn't give me any 10 and 1, but he said, "I'll give you some K rations." K rations come in a little box like this [shows size], breakfast, lunch and supper, or dinner. And so he gave me a whole mess of those, and I give 'em out to the guys, and I opened 'em up and explained to 'em what's in there. There's a little hardtack, and there's a few cigarettes, and there's some, I think it was like a O Henry bar or Baby Ruth bar, can of plum pudding, and some powdered coffee and cocoa. It's a neat little package, a lot of food. And that made all the difference in the world.

TI: So now they were happy.

KT: Yeah, yeah. They really worked, and next night they come to volunteer. "If you can get us that keitai shokuryo," he says, "we'll work tonight too." And I said, "No, no. No, no, we got the work done." But that was really something. Later on, they said, "Hey, you could've got in trouble for that." [Laughs]

TI: But you had to get the work done.

KT: Yeah.

TI: You know, I'm curious, during, you were there kind of during that transition, and I'm curious if you ever heard any, like, stories or rumors about maybe possible treasures that the Japanese were hiding or anything like that. That, here they were, a conquering sort of force in all these different countries, and whether or not they ever were hiding any of that or any, like the Philippines or in Japan?

KT: No, I didn't hear any of that. I knew a guy named Kume, he was the, Kume was a, he authored a book of, encyclopedia of gems, and he became the appraiser in -- and at the Bank of Japan all these Japanese had donated treasures and stuff for the war effort, and he was the one that went there to appraise these, all sorts of pearls and diamonds and whatever. Yeah, but I never heard of anybody hiding anything.

TI: Or I'm wondering about the, more of the Japanese government. Here they were potentially stockpiling a lot of these treasures, especially after they conquer another country, if they, if they were...

KT: I don't know. They might've been, but I have no idea on that.

TI: Okay.

<End Segment 23> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 24>

TI: So going back to, after you cleaned the Daiichi Building, what happens next?

KT: Well, I was gonna be in the custodian's office, but they get a telephone call and said, "Hey, no water at the embassy. Pretty soon general's gonna wake up and he's gonna want to take a shower." So the thing was that, "Get the jeep up there right away." [Laughs] So I bring a jeep over and they fly up to the embassy, and I got the guy and I said, "Hey, how come no water?" He says, "Well, there's, so many areas are damaged. If they left the water pressure then they lose so much water overnight, so they close it down." I said, "Well, open it up again." [Laughs]

TI: So it was a matter of just getting someone to turn the valve open?

KT: This is in a big city, big main.

TI: I see.

KT: So they got the water going -- and the embassy sort of sits up on the hill -- so anyway, they got the water going and was just fine. Then I went back to what I was doing. And next morning, again, about -- my billet was at the finance building -- they, about five o'clock in the morning they come wake me up, say, "Hey, no water again. You better get up there." So then I get up and I holler at them in Japanese again, and they get the water going. And that time is when the aide de camp says, "Tsuchida, get your gear and move in here." And they had one of the servants' quarters for me. When ambassador grew, before the war, built a whole bunch of servants' quarters, so they put me in one of the servants' quarters, a room, and I stayed there. [Laughs]

TI: So they, because you were valuable at getting things done, they essentially reassigned you to the general sort of maintenance staff.

KT: Well, they said, "You work there, so your duty station is gonna be there at the embassy." So then I stayed at the embassy there. And they said that they would assign me to the general staff. By that... a lot of this is the VOCG, it's all verbal, not on paper, and anyway, I stayed there. And a guy that I worked with, later on, he was a master sergeant but later on he became a warrant officer, then he became General MacArthur's aide de camp, and he's got that little, aide de camp was a little eagle with a shield and it has stars, and this one has five stars, General MacArthur's insignia. So I was like his interpreter 'cause he consults with Mrs. MacArthur, all kinds of things, bunch of things being done, he dumps it on me and then I got to go run after these guys and make them do this and do that.

TI: Now, what would be just like an example or two of some of the things that you would take care of?

KT: Lot of things are just normal, everyday duties. But one other thing is that, later on I found out, was the fabric on the loveseat was so weak that when you grab it to move it your fingers'll go right through the silk, and they wanted to duplicate that. So I took a piece of the cloth and I went down to a store, department, and I said, "Hey, can you make same thing?" He says, "Oh yeah." And I said, "It's for the embassy." And he said, "Okay." So they made the exact same thing, color and everything, and then later on I found out that patent, the French company or something that originally made that started raising Cain because --

TI: It was like a copyright infringement, or they're copying.

KT: Yeah. They never brought it to me, but I'm sure it went to the general's office. And one of the, Colonel Bunker was a Harvard lawyer, so I'm sure he took care of it. There are a lot of things they want done, if they want it done I'll try to get it done, but there's problems like that. Another time some lady sent Mrs. MacArthur, it's a round cup like that with a stem and there's a shell on there, and what they do is they get shaved ice and put it in this bowl part, and on the shell they put, like, shrimp cocktail or something and they serve it. Well, this lady sent her a dozen and a couple of 'em were broke, and she's coming over and she, she's gonna invite her for dinner and she's gonna have to have twelve ladies there and she's lacking two. So, "See if you can get these made." So I go down to this glass company and he said, "Oh," they're shaking their head, said, "That's a lot of work to get, just make two of 'em." Then they talk it over and I said, "Makasa gensu," and it's a magic word. And they say, "Oh, okay. We'll do it, we'll do it."

TI: So what'd you say, like MacArthur's what? You said, or what --

KT: Gensui is like a field marshal. It's a rank, see. And they said they would do it, so they made it, the exact same thing. You couldn't tell the difference, one from the other. And we were happy, but what happens, then they copied that and then they changed it a little bit. Instead of being round, it's like a little hexagon, and they start selling that. I think that sort of rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. But to me, I don't know anything about law or patent. [Laughs]

TI: So tell me about the prominence of General MacArthur in Japan. I mean, how did the Japanese view General MacArthur?

KT: They think he's god. "Makkasa Gensui" and they just can't... it's unbelievable. On the 7th, around September the 12th is, something like that, I go down and I get on the train and I go out of Tokyo to Hachioji, maybe ten miles away, all by myself and get on the train, come back at ten o'clock at night. And nobody would raise a hand. So they said, "Aren't you afraid the Japanese might attack you, some guys?" And I said, "I don't know, nobody seems to be hostile towards me." I said, "They're all friends." And anyplace, I went all over the place and never had any trouble, not one.

TI: Was there a way for you to be identified working with General MacArthur? I mean, was there kind of a special card or anything, if you ever got in trouble or anything like that? [KT shakes head] So it was just your word, when you said you worked for the general.

KT: Yeah.

TI: I see.

<End Segment 24> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 25>

TI: Any other kind of examples of some of the stuff you did? Like how about, like the family stuff? I mean, did General MacArthur and Mrs. MacArthur have children?

KT: Yeah, there was a little boy named Arthur. When we got there he must've been about ten years old. But the general, he doesn't have any time with the son really, so every night we set up a huge screen and we show movies, and the general watches a movie almost every night. And we set up these folding chairs and he sits, the Honor Guard are invited and the staff come and watch the movie, so everybody comes in, they all sit down and, sitting there, and pretty soon General and Mrs. MacArthur walked in and he'll say, "Good evening, gentlemen," or something like that. They sit down and he'll light this big cigar.

TI: And these were, like, first run movies that were playing in the United States kind of, like Hollywood type movies?

KT: Yeah, yeah. I don't know, I don't think they'd get 'em special. I think they just go right to the Armed Forces theater, that they show movies in the theater and they just get movies from there.

TI: Well, and would then Arthur also come watch the movies too?

KT: No, not Arthur. He'd be sleeping. But see, the General works odd hours. He works maybe from, gosh, I don't know, eleven to two or three, and then he goes back to work and he works three, four, up to about six, seven o'clock, eight o'clock. And he comes in and has supper, and then he watches a movie. So it's pretty late when they showed the movie, and the reason why he does that is because of the time difference between the States and, and Washington.

TI: I see.

KT: He sort of splits the time.

TI: You know, going back to the son, it just seemed like, I'm guessing it'd be kind of a lonely experience for a boy, to be the son of General MacArthur in Japan. There's no playmates or --

KT: No, they get children from the other... General Whitney had some boys, and they all, they'd go after them and they'd come out to the grounds and they'd play. And they, well, the cook, he stayed out there, and he'll, he plays right along with these GIs. And some of these, like we had the mess sergeant, but he's like a baby. He just didn't want to lose. [Laughs]

TI: Okay. Any, any other interesting stories that, I'm sure there's lots of memories of being there during this time. I mean...

KT: No, that's just about, the main thing is his hours and his watching the movies. Every night he'd watch a movie. And he'd never have dinners like, his dinners are like lunch and, maybe two o'clock he's, all these guests that, correspondents and people from other governments and stuff, they'd come in, they'd want something with the General, then they'd have a dinner. Or we'd call it a dinner, but actually it was lunch.

TI: So here's another question. During this time, right after the war, I'm wondering if you knew about, I'm curious about the Tokyo Rose incident, Iva Toguri? Did you ever know about her case? 'Cause it was right after the occupation. For a year, I think, she was held by the military police and kind of...

KT: The only thing I know is what they wrote in the army, Japan, Nippon Times. It was kind of funny because it was pro and con. Some of the guys enjoyed her music. [Laughs]

TI: But I guess in her case, I mean, eventually it was shown that there was no wrongdoing. And I think she was actually investigated by the MacArthur's staff, and they, through this initial investigation, showed no wrongdoing. It was much later, when there was some bad press in the United States, that made it hard for her and that's when she was found guilty. But I was just curious --

KT: Yeah, I don't know. It's...

TI: Okay.

<End Segment 25> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 26>

TI: So Japan, anything else that you want to talk about, anything else you want to share in terms of your memories in Japan?

KT: You know, Japan, they have this little fish called ayu, and they use cormorants to catch 'em.

TI: The birds?

KT: Birds, yeah. They got a ring around there so they can't swallow it, and catch the bird, bring it back and it... well, this guy, he gave, he brought some to the embassy for the MacArthurs, so the cook cooked it like the Japanese cook ayu and they served it. And the waiter's Filipino, Sergeant Valbuena, takes it in and gives, serves the general. He says, "This is a Japanese..." So General takes it and he cuts it, and he puts it in his mouth and he bites down, and when they deep fry that it's just the whole thing, head and all, so the General, the first bite he takes is the head. And he puts it back down, he says, "Sergeant Valbuena, bring me some ham. I think this fish is too bony for me." [Laughs] Yeah, and he comes back there and that Valbuena, he sits back and eats it all.

TI: 'Cause he liked it. It was probably really good. [Laughs] Interesting. So you, you probably got to know lots of the staff pretty well, then.

KT: Yeah.

TI: And so what are some fond memories of that time in Japan, when you think back?

KT: Meeting all my relatives. For a while there, almost every day somebody'd come out, and I'd get a call from Post Three and I'd go out there, and the guy says, "I'm So-and-So Hosoi. I'm your cousin." Another guy comes and, "I'm Hatakeyama Such-and-Such, and I'm your uncle." [Laughs] Yeah, I met a lot, all the relatives.

TI: And how were your relatives doing in Japan, postwar? Was it a difficult time for your relatives?

KT: They were doing good. One guy was doing so good he had a big party, and he got a hold of some wrong alcohol and died.

TI: That's unfortunate.

KT: It was sad.

TI: So Kiyo, how long were you stationed in Japan?

KT: I was there about fifteen years, fourteen anyway.

TI: And how many years with MacArthur?

KT: Five years.

TI: Five years.

KT: Four and a half, maybe.

TI: Okay. And then after that, who were you, what did you --

KT: I was with General Ridgeway for about a year, and General Clark for about a year plus. I don't know, maybe close to two years. And then General Hall, and General Max Taylor, and then General Lemnitzer, Lyman L. Lemnitzer.

TI: And these were all at the embassy? They were all with the --

KT: Yeah. No, not that embassy. When General Ridgeway came to the embassy, they signed a peace treaty in San Francisco with Japan, so we, the army had to move out of the embassy because the ambassador then occupies the embassy. And I forget when that was, but anyway, General Ridgeway was there and then we moved to Maeda house, Marquis Maeda's estate. And Ridgeway, Clark, Hall, Taylor, and Lemnitzer all used the Maeda house as their residence.

TI: And with these other generals, was your role similar to what you did with MacArthur?

KT: Yeah, more or less like. Well, later, after we went to Maeda house, then I had to sort of look after the personnel and things like that, whereas at the embassy I didn't.

TI: Okay, good.

<End Segment 26> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 27>

TI: And so after fourteen, fifteen years stationed in Japan, then where did you go? What was next?

KT: I came back here to the States and I was sent to Fort Lewis. The 4th Infantry Division was in Fort Lewis in '58, '59, and I was in the 4th MI Detachment. I was the Order of Battle Specialist.

TI: And so what's that? What kind of role is that?

KT: Order of Battle, Order of Battle Specialist, he studies the officers of the enemy, their tactics, and you're supposed to know everything about the enemy, where their general went to school.

TI: So this is very different than what you did in Japan.

KT: Yeah, yeah. I had a hard time there because I don't know anything about Order of Battle, just briefed me and then I go there and I land in that, so you got to sort of feel your way through that. What do you call, a lot of it, when you fight the enemy, the general might be a quartermaster general or something and he's not a very aggressive individual, so you figure... or if you get a general who's armor, like a tank commander type general --

TI: Then they're gonna be more aggressive.

KT: Yeah, he'd be more offensive minded, and artillery would be the same thing. And that kind of thing, yeah, we'd go out in the field and they capture somebody, then you get the information and then you have to say, well, we got this guy and that guy, this and that, interrogation. So I stayed in Fort Lewis a couple years, and then I was getting pro pay, proficiency pay for Japanese. And they said, "You can't draw proficiency pay because you're not using Japanese in your duty." So I said wow, so I wrote my friend -- he's, it's good to have friends in high places. [Laughs] I wrote my friend -- [Interruption] -- and I said, "Hey, I'm gonna have to go back to Japan 'cause I'm gonna lose my proficiency pay." And he says, "Okay." He says, and then pretty soon I get a thing back and it says, "You're assigned to the U.S. Army Map Service, Far East." So they send me, I go back to Japan, and I go to map research branch, area analysis division, and work on boundaries and stuff like that. [Laughs]

TI: Now, this proficiency pay, how much more is it? Is it quite a bit more?

KT: I was getting about a hundred dollars more.

TI: A month?

KT: Yeah, a month.

TI: It's not that much. It's... [Laughs]

KT: Well yeah, that wasn't that much, but at the pay that time it was quite a bit.

TI: But it's, it was quite a bit. I see.

KT: Then I went back to Japan for four years and retired in 1964, four years at the mapping thing.

TI: So at that point, how many years were you in the military? Was it like twenty years?

KT: Yeah, I got out, 1964 I had twenty years in, so -- little, twenty years and a half about -- so then I retired and I start working at the golf course. [Laughs]

TI: Good. Okay.

<End Segment 27> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 28>

TI: So when you think back, I mean, what kind of reflections do you have about your experiences? I mean, it's kind of, you grew up in a small town, Auburn, you lived in Japan with these major generals.

KT: I thought I was pretty lucky that, why did I get that job, you know? There's a lot of guys that, they know Japanese well. Like there's a lot of Japanese I don't know. Most of the Japanese at the school was military stuff, just like one time one general says, "Tell him I want to shake all their hands." So shake hands? How do you say that in Japanese? I don't know. So I told him, "Hey, come up here and grab the general's hand." So they come up there and they grab for his hand, so naturally, he shakes 'em. But things like that -- hammer, sometimes pounding away and we don't have a hammer. I says, "Hey, Haamaa mottekoi," Because Isseis, they all, they use the easiest word. Kanazuchi would be Japanese; it's easier to say haamaa, hammer. So I said, " Haamaa mottekoi," and he says that he doesn't know what that is. I said, I said, "Are you Japanese?" And he says, "Of course." I said, "Don't you know what a haamaa is?" And he said, "No." I said, "That's a kugi no tatakumane." "Oh," he says, "kanazuchi desu ka." Then he runs to get it. [Laughs] Lot of things I don't know in Japanese.

TI: So why do you think you were chosen, then?

KT: [Laughs] I don't know.

TI: There must be some reasons why, that you were good at that. I mean, what was it?

KT: I don't know. I have no idea why I, the only thing was, in my mind... I shouldn't, I shouldn't embarrass the Niseis. [Laughs] When you get in the army, you see a second lieutenant and he stands tall, and here, I got all these generals, colonels, and he has a party or something. One time General Clark was leaving and he wanted me to hand him the briefcase when he gets in the car, so I took the briefcase down, I'm waiting there, and a bunch of the other big shots are out there, and some colonel comes and he grabs the briefcase out of my hand 'cause he wants to make points. I said, "Colonel, did the general ask you to hand him that briefcase?" He said, "No." Then he thought a little bit, and he said, "Oh, you better do it." So he gives it back to me. [Laughs] There's a lot of little things like that, goes on at the... one time Shigemitsu, he used to be the Japanese foreign minister and he's the one that signed the unconditional surrender, he was invited to a cocktail party for some reason, I don't know. And Ray Katayama's standing on one side, and he's got a nice fat face, and he's smiling away like a, like a Japanese, they say ebisu daikoku, happy guy. He's just smiling, and Shigemitsu walks in and walks over to Katayama, sticks his hand out and just shakes. [Laughs] And Ray is just a sergeant. He's looking at me. That was so funny.

TI: Yeah. Those are good stories. Okay, well, Kiyo, thank you so much for doing this interview. I mean, we've been in here almost three hours doing this, and we covered a lot of great stories. I think you are right, you were able to see and live a lot of things that most people don't get a chance to.

KT: Yeah, I really don't know why I was so lucky. That's probably why I stayed in the army. Otherwise I'd have probably got out.

<End Segment 28> - Copyright © 2012 Densho. All Rights Reserved.