Densho Digital Archive - Harriet Sato Masunaga Interview

Densho Digital Archive
Densho Visual History Collection
Title: Harriet Sato Masunaga Interview
Narrator: Harriet Sato Masunaga
Interviewer: Brian Niiya
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Date: February 6, 2012
Densho ID: denshovh-mharriet-01

<Begin Segment 1>

BN: Today is February 6, 2012, we're here at the Japanese Cultural Center of Hawaii with Harriet Masunaga, Harriet Sato originally, and going to talk to her about her family, the well-known family store in Aala and later Ala Moana, her father's internment, and after the war, the return after the war. And we'll get started.

HM: All right.

BN: And maybe if you could start by telling us a little about your, what you know about your parents and what they told you, and maybe with your mother first.

HM: Oh. Well, you know, you had interviewed Robert, and I read his story. And essentially, it's true that my father was from Hanaoka and my mother from Kudamatsu in Yamaguchi. And my father came to Hawaii, immigrated, in 1907. And he, I guess he came to work in the fields, actually, that was his intent. But according to my mother, she said that he was turned down when he went to get a job in Ewa at the sugar cane fields, I guess. And the manager asked him to show his hands, and he looked at his hands and said, "These are not the hands of a laborer, so sorry, we can't use you." And that was the best thing that happened to him because he looked at the fields and he decided he didn't think he wanted to work there anyway. But then he had to find work, and he knew a friend who worked at Oahu Country Club, and he asked him if he could help him get a job there. And he did get a job at Oahu Country Club and he worked there as a gardener and waiter for many years. And he had made enough money to buy a hat cleaning business. And so that was his first business here, cleaning hats. In those days, all the men wore panama hats, and they eventually had to be cleaned because they were white. And the women wore hats, too.

And when, well, my mother came many years later, I guess his family decided that he needs a bride. And so it's true. She was a picture bride, but I understand from what she told me that the wedding was held in Japan six months before she arrived (...) without the groom there. He was here in Hawaii. And so essentially she was already married when she came. So she came January of 1917, but she was married in June of 1916, and she said she was about nineteen, twenty years old. And she told me that when she went through the immigration, the immigration doctor told her that she was too well-educated, so, "Turn around and go home." [Laughs] But she decided to stay. I guess in those days, especially the women, were not educated beyond maybe sixth grade or something, but she had gone to seventh and eighth grade. So she could write Japanese beautifully. Her writing was really nice.

She decided to stay, and so I guess at that time he already had the hat cleaning shop so she helped him with the business. And then, so many years later, he bought a hat store, a regular hat store that (sold) ready-made hats. Well, they also could make hats for people if they wanted, custom hats. And that was, I believe, back in 19... oh, I forgot. 1920, maybe around there. And eventually, I guess in those days, everyone wore suits made by a tailor. But then I guess the time came when ready-made suits became available to people, and I guess he felt that ready-made suits would be a good business to go into. So he made arrangements with the manufacturer to make the suits to fit the Japanese body, which is much shorter than the (Caucasian) body. So he was able to get clothing to fit the Japanese body, so a lot of Japanese did come to his store.

BN: These were Western-style?

HM: Western suits.

BN: That were made in Japan?

HM: No, they were made in America.

BN: Oh, I see. So the person making the suits was...

HM: Yes, from what I understand. So he had them custom -- well, he had them made to fit the shorter bodies, and so I guess that was the only place that (Western) clothing fit. So a lot people did come to the Aala Sato Clothiers where he first opened in 1928, I understand.

BN: Then to go back a little bit, first of all, what was your father's name?

HM: Taichi. Taichi Sato. My mother's name was Tamiyo Sato.

BN: Did he ever talk about why he wanted to come to Hawaii?

HM: No. You know, he was so busy, I never really sat down to talk to him. But I did get a chance to talk to my mother about a lot of things. But from what I understand, times were really bad in those days, especially in the early 1900s. So he came, I guess, like everyone else did, to just make some money and then send some money home or go back eventually. But I guess he decided to stay, which was a good thing. [Laughs]

BN: Do you know what the family, his family in Japan did?

HM: Oh. From what I understand, they had a store. My visit there at that time... I noticed that they had a small store there. But before that I'm not sure what his family did. I guess I didn't get to talk to him. But he was the only boy in the family, so it was difficult for him to leave.

BN: Unusual.

HM: Yes, the only son. So from what I understand, his cousin took over so-called being the chonan, which is the oldest son. So his cousin took over, and they adopted him. Because he had all sisters, he had so many sisters.

BN: Do you know when, what year he was born?

HM: I do, but I have to refer to my (notes, in) 1886 maybe.

BN: So he was about twenty.

HM: He was about twenty when he came, yeah.

BN: And then he came, he must have not been a contract (laborer)... well at that time he wouldn't have been in contract...

HM: No. He was... at that time, 1907, I think all the contracts had stopped. So I think it was just a private company. But, you know, I don't know the details of how come he was able to come, who paid his way, and, but he was about twenty, and then about twenty-nine, I guess many years later he took on a bride.

BN: And she must have been quite a bit younger.

HM: She was about nine years younger than my father.

BN: Which isn't even... for Issei period, that's not even that big a gap.

HM: Well, (...) according to (my mother), he walked to Ewa to get his job, first job in the fields, but that's a long walk, I know. [Laughs] So I'm not too sure because I know he didn't have a car when he first came, so it's a possibility. But he was turned down, so he worked for Oahu Country Club. That was the best thing to happen to him.

<Begin Segment 2>

BN: What do you know about your mother's family in Japan? What was her family name, first of all?

HM: Her family name was Okamoto. And she lived in a neighboring town, and so her story again was that she had... I guess in those days, your parents always tried to arrange marriage, and she said she had lots of offers. [Laughs] But I guess she decided that she was going to Hawaii. And her... the way that her mother decided that it was all right for her to come to Hawaii to marry this man that she had never seen, was that she said that, "If it's that woman's son, then it's okay. You can marry him." So I guess she felt... there's a word called shikkari in Japanese, so she felt that his mother, my father's mother, was shikkari, and, "I'm pretty sure she brought up her son in the proper way, so you can marry him." [Laughs] So that's the way she decided that she's going to be married.

BN: But she never met him until coming here.

HM: (Yes). She never met him, it's just by picture. And he was quite nice-looking, so I guess she decided, "Oh, he's nice looking, so I think it will be all right." [Laughs] She took a chance.

BN: And you mentioned, by that time, he already had the hat store?

HM: No, he had a hat cleaning business, yes.

BN: Where was that?

HM: That might have been in... I think Bob and I were talking about it, and there was a Kamanuwai Lane or something, I'm not sure exactly where it's located, but it was in a lane someplace.

BN: But it's more downtown area?

HM: Maybe in Nu'uanu area, I don't know, but (yes), more downtown area. And I know that all the children in my family were born at different locations. Because in those days, all the childbirths were by (midwife), not by going to the hospital. So we were all born at home.

BN: So Bob was the oldest...

HM: Yes.

BN: He was born the same year or pretty soon after...

HM: He was born 1917 in October. And I think they were living in Waikiki someplace. But they moved to different locations. Then my second brother Barney was born at the second location, and that might have been (during the) cleaning business when Barney was born. And then they went to the hat store, and that's when my sister (Alyce) was born. So they're all different locations.

BN: And then the last two?

HM: I think, I'm not sure where Larry was born. Maybe he was born in the same place as the hat store. But then I was born upstairs. We lived in the apartment above the store in Aala building, so I was born in Aala.

BN: So you were the only one probably born in Aala.

HM: Aala? Yes.

BN: That was it, right, the five?

HM: Yes, five of us, yes. So, yeah, we lived above the store. And all of the businesses there had apartments upstairs, so we visited each other.

[Interruption]

BN: So the Sato Clothiers began in Aala.

HM: Yes, 1928.

BN: And then the family lived above?

HM: (Yes), upstairs. And I went to kindergarten across the railroad station in Palama, Palama school. We would walk barefooted (to) school. Kindergarten, first and second grade, I went to Palama school. And then in third grade, we had to transfer to Kaiulani school, and my father decided that he wanted to send me, well, my sister and I, to Saint Andrews Priory.

<Begin Segment 3>

BN: What are some of the first things you remember growing up in Aala? What are your first memories of...

HM: Oh. Well, when I was born, it was in the midst of the Great Depression. But I don't remember my family being in a bad state because of that because I remember a happy childhood. And we (...)... well, we always played either on the sidewalk or sort of.. between, there's a hallway that goes to the back of the Aala building, there were some markets in back. And so sometimes in the hallway there, and then many times across the street at Aala Park. But (yes), from what I remember it was a happy childhood. We had fun. We made our own fun. [Laughs]

BN: Was your sense that the business was doing fairly well even though it was the Depression?

HM: Yes, but I think I was too young to even realize what was really going on. But I don't remember my mother saying anything about, "We can't afford this," or, "We can't afford that." So I guess as far as I knew, we ate well and she cooked upstairs. It was the Great Depression, but I'm not too sure... I don't know. I guess Robert might remember a lot more, but at the end store (...) did all right. Because there was a need for that type of clothes, and that was the only store that could fit a lot of Japanese people.

BN: The Aala neighborhood was kind of known as a Japanese commercial district, theater district.

HM: Yes.

BN: And can you tell us some of your memories of, highlights of the area, other businesses? Can you visualize...

HM: Oh, yes. On the corner, on one corner there was a Akahoshi Drug Store that was right across from the bridge that went over to the next building. But the Akahoshi Drug Store, we would go there for ice cream, there was a counter, and we always ate ice cream there, so I remember that. There was Hawaii Importing, which was the Okamoto family dry goods store. Well, Jane Okamoto Komeji was older than I, so I didn't really play with her. But I knew her younger sister and younger brother, and we did go up to her apartment house. And there was Lion Shoe Store right next to Sato Clothiers, and we would get our shoes over there always. Then there was Pacific Woolen, they used to make, tailor suits and things like that. There was a Chinese store where I would go there to get candy. They had all kinds of candy there and seemoi and stuff.

And then right across the hallway was the Amaguri Taro, (where) they used to sell hot chestnuts. And there was a big machine in the back and we would go to the back to watch Mr. Maeda grinding out the chestnuts. It was very fascinating. Chestnuts were always baked in this huge tub, and it looked like black sand to me. He would churn that. But I remember that, and he had an only son, George, and George was older, but he was like kodomo taisho, so he always used to get us younger kids to do this and that.

[Interruption]

HM: And then next to that was (Hei-wa Do), Aloha Curio store, and they sold curios, Hawaiian things. (Narr. note: Hei-wa Do was a jewelry store where U.S. Senator Dan Inouye's first wife, Maggie Awamura, grew up. I always played with her younger sister, Betty.) And then after that was... I think the hardware store, Iwahara hardware store. Then down around the corner, way down, was the furniture store where Jane Komeji's husband's family lived. That was across from the railroad station.

BN: So with all of these, were they similar to yours in the sense that the family lived above or in the back or whatever?

HM: Yes. Well, they (all) had apartments upstairs, yes. So we would visit each other.

BN: And pretty much, they're all similar Japanese immigrant businesses with these Nisei kids, they're all kind of the same age?

HM: (Yes).

BN: So that was kind of your playmates?

HM: Yes, except my playmates, I had some playmates in school. But we played -- well, the ones who were closer to my age were Jane Komeji's younger brother and sister, and then Margaret Inouye's younger sister, Betty. But the others were mostly older.

BN: You were at the younger end of the spectrum.

HM: Yes, uh-huh.

BN: So you mentioned the one Chinese business...

HM: Oh, the Chinese store? Yes.

BN: But were pretty much everyone else was pretty much all the others, businesses...

HM: Japanese, (yes). Everyone was Japanese. But we didn't really play with -- I don't remember the Chinese families, playing with the Chinese family.

<Begin Segment 4>

BN: Now, where did you end up going to school when you first started?

HM: Oh, I went to Palama School, which is in Palama Lane. And you had to cross a railroad, and there was an overhead walkway, and we crossed over the railroad and went to Palama, which is the next (district). And there was a school in the lane, Palama Lane, at the end of the lane. So I was there for kindergarten, first and second. And then I was supposed to transfer to Kaiulani school, but my father decided to send my sister and I to St. Andrews. So in third grade I went to St. Andrews (Priory. Jane Kurahara went to St. Andrews too.)

BN: So you were all at St. Andrews (Priory).

HM: I knew her in St. Andrews, yes.

BN: Was it largely Japanese at that time?

HM: The St. Andrews? Not necessarily. It was a mixture (of races).

BN: Was your family religious at all?

HM: No. You know, it just so happened that I think my father decided that since it's a religious school, it should be okay. But I guess he didn't want us to go to public school, especially at Kaiulani. That area is not the best area. And I guess he thought that if we go to the religious schools, we're okay. And we had to wear uniforms, so (he) thought it was okay. So my sister graduated from St. Andrews, but she was older than Larry, so she was way above me.

BN: How big a difference is there?

HM: My sister and I? About seven years. And Larry was in between us.

BN: So other than Larry, you were pretty far, quite a number of years separating from the three oldest.

HM: Oh, yes, yes.

[Interruption]

BN: So your three oldest were quite a bit older.

HM: Quite a bit older, yes.

BN: So did you play a lot with your siblings? Probably not.

HM: No. I think Larry was the closest to me in age, so... I think I was closer to Larry. But then I guess when my sister came back to (Hawaii) because she lived in New York, (...) married a Nisei from New York and lived there for many years. He died there, so she decided to come back here to live. After she came back, well, we became pretty close.

BN: When you're an adult, seven years is not...

HM: (Yes), many years later.

BN: Robert was mentioning that all the kids pretty much went to different schools.

HM: [Laughs] As my father could afford it, I guess.

BN: Do you think that's kind of what was happening?

HM: Well, from what I heard, my second brother, Barney, had a chance -- well my father wanted him to go to Punahou because he was kind of a rascal.

[Interruption]

HM: So, (yes), I guess more or less we all went to different schools except for Bob and Barney ended up at McKinley.

BN: With Barney, you mentioned he passed the exam for Punahou.

HM: From what I understand, he passed it. Some years later I found out, but then he decided he didn't want to go there because his friends were all from -- actually, from Central Intermediate, the next step is McKinley, and his friends were all going to McKinley. So he decided, no, he didn't want to go to some other school.

BN: So this is at the high school level, he would have had to...

HM: Yes, he would have been high school.

BN: But then it gets kind of hard.

HM: And then after all that, he didn't go on to college, but he did go to business school. There was a business school, Canyon Business School, he went to business school after the army. So I guess he was supposedly very good with figures.

BN: And then after a few years at St. Andrews you were going to...

HM: Oh, (yes). Then... I guess Father decided to send me to Punahou. But I took a summer school class in fifth grade, after my fifth grade I went to summer school. And I guess, I remember, I think Bob took me to the principal's office to enroll me at Punahou. And she said that I didn't have to take the entrance exam because I did so well in summer school. So I was accepted as a sixth grader. So that was September of 1941, before the war started, yes. So that's when I started Punahou.

<Begin Segment 5>

BN: Now at the same time, most Nisei, they're also going to Japanese language school. Is that the case with your family?

HM: Oh, yes. My parents believed that we should go to Japanese school very strongly, especially my father who was active at Chuo Gakuen, which is a Japanese school in Nu'uanu, and he was on the board of directors. So we all went to Japanese school after regular school, starting from kindergarten. And I loved it. I loved Japanese school because my parents, especially my mother who was not very fluent in English, would help me with my Japanese, and would always praise me when I did well. So I studied hard in Japanese school, but I loved it. I enjoyed it very much. So after kindergarten -- well, from kindergarten on, I went to Japanese school until the war started, and then all the Japanese schools closed. So I had (...) five years of Japanese (school).

BN: And you went to the one, you went after school each day?

HM: Yeah. Each day after school we went, and I walked to Japanese school. No one took me by bus or car, but I walked to school.

BN: Before we get on to -- I was going to ask you a bunch about Punahou and so forth, too, but maybe we'll talk about the wartime first. The war kind of hits very early, right after you just started at Punahou. But you alluded earlier to the fact that your father was active on the board of the Japanese school, and I guess he was active in a lot of different types of community organizations.

HM: Yes. He was, at that time, when the war started, he was president of the Japanese Chamber of Commerce. But he was active in many Japanese organizations. And I think that's the reason he was one of the first to be taken. But they strongly believed that we should go to Japanese school, so I was a good girl and I obeyed, but I enjoyed Japanese school. And I'm glad I did go, because today I'm able to speak a little Japanese and I can recognize some characters, simple characters. And I guess I learned a lot of the Japanese values, and I think that's the reason we went to Sunday school at the Japanese school, to learn about those things. I'm glad that I did have that education.

BN: Was the Sunday school a religious thing?

HM: No. It was called Sunday school, but I think that's when we could learn other things other than book learning.

BN: Was it just kids?

HM: (Yes), kids.

BN: It wasn't the whole family would go, it's just...

HM: Oh, no, no. We had regular classes.

BN: It was like part of your Japanese school.

HM: (Yes), it was regular classes, yeah.

BN: So I thought there were, by that time, there were rules -- there was a lot of objection to Japanese schools, so they placed all these restrictions on Japanese school, one of them being you could only go so many hours out of the week.

HM: Oh, yes. I think...

BN: So maybe the Sunday school was a way to evade that regulation in some respects.

HM: Could be. (Yes), that could be.

BN: Because it's not technically Japanese language school.

HM: (...) Maybe. I didn't know they had that --

BN: Did you go to, I mean, all the time you were going to the Japanese school, you're also going to the Sunday school as well?

HM: You mean like a church? At church or something?

BN: Well, this Sunday Japanese school.

HM: Yes. Well, we went to school on Sunday, too, but I guess we didn't call it Sunday school, but...

BN: But it was like a continuation.

HM: Yeah, it was a continuation to learn about the values and stuff, and culture, and other things that they can't teach you, they don't have enough time to teach you in the regular (school).

BN: But that was something you did continuously.

HM: Uh-huh.

BN: It was all taught in Japanese?

HM: Yes, yes. Everything was taught in Japanese. I'm glad that I did go. We learned a lot of things.

BN: And then with regard to your father, I mean, I think what I wanted to ask you was, because he was doing all of this stuff, was he around a lot or did you not see much of him?

HM: No. Actually, no, I didn't see too much of him. But as a child I remember when I wanted to eat a snack, I would always go to him for five cents. And for five cents I could buy any kind of snack. And he always, never denied me.

[Interruption]

BN: So did you go to your father because he was the easy mark?

HM: Well, yes. I think that's probably true, that I knew where to get the money. [Laughs] So five cents was a lot to me in those days. So whenever I needed to buy something I would go to him. But I guess... I don't remember having too many conversation with him like I did with my mother.

BN: What kind of person was he? Was he outgoing, gregarious, more quiet type of personality?

HM: No, he had a very nice personality and seemed to be friendly with everyone. And I guess he was quite popular among... that's why he was, I guess, elected to be president.

BN: A leader of all of these organizations.

HM: (Yes). So, (yes), and not having a lot of education, he was pretty akamai about business and things in general. So I guess basically he was a smart man.

BN: And judging from the progression of the schools, he must have been doing fairly well.

HM: Yes, yes. I think... I don't remember too much about him because I was the baby of the family.

BN: Did you have to work at the store?

HM: Well, not have to work at the store, but I did help in the back, maybe helping to wrap gifts, wrapping packages, things like that. So I was always at the store in between playing. But they didn't expect me to work there as such.

BN: Maybe because you were the youngest.

HM: (Yes). But as I got older, they expected a little bit more help from me. I might do errands or go and get something from the stockroom or help wrap. But that's the reason I didn't go to school on that Sunday, December 7th, because they were very busy the night before. Store was open for Christmas and I was helping downstairs in the store.

BN: And then so what... you were like up late or something?

HM: Yes, I was up later than usual.

<Begin Segment 6>

BN: So on December 7th...

HM: I decided I was too tired, (yes), I was too tired. So I guess Sunday school must have been not like a regular school. It's, I think, optional, you can come if you want to.

BN: What are your memories, actually, of December 7th?

HM: Well, I think my most vivid memory is seeing the FBI come for my father late in the afternoon. I didn't really know what was happening, but I was frightened, and because they came with guns, two men came with guns pointed. And he had just finished doing some yardwork, and I guess was coming (...) into the house, but they wouldn't allow him to come in. And so he had on geta, and they said they were going to take him. But I guess they allowed him to change his geta into shoes, so my mother had to bring his shoes and socks out to him so that he could put them on outside of the house. They wouldn't allow him to even come in to change his yard clothes. So I do remember that. But as far as the war, I didn't know what was going on.

[Interruption]

BN: At the time of December 7th, were you living somewhere else now 'cause you weren't at the store?

HM: Yes. In, I think it was around third grade when I started St. Andrews, my father bought this house in Makiki, and it was a large house with a one-acre yard. And that's where he was doing yard work, because he loved to do yard work, and that was the only day he could do it, Sunday was his day off. And so I do remember that house. And my friends remember that house. But they did do a lot of entertaining, and they were able to do that being in that house. So when the FBI came, they did come to that house to pick him up.

BN: And then you were inside while some of this was going on.

HM: Yes, I was inside, my mother and I were inside. Larry was helping my father in the yard, so he remembers coming in. But he does remember the FBI coming, too, but he was doing yardwork that day, too, helping, and then he said he came in to take a shower, and then he saw the FBI. But I was indoors at that time.

BN: And then they took him?

HM: They took him, and (I) never saw him after that for the rest of the war years. So...

BN: Did you know where he was? I mean, were you completely in the dark?

HM: No, I was too young to even realize, but that's why I didn't know what camps he had been in. So when I spoke to Janie, she looked it up and then she gave me this -- oh, and he was in the Group One. Group One went to Sand Island and then all these other camps. But I guess he was able to write letters home in Japanese, so he did. But I didn't read the letters or anything.

BN: Because they were in Japanese?

HM: (Yes), they were all in Japanese.

BN: Were you able to write to him?

HM: Not really because I wasn't that fluent. Having been to Japanese school, but not that fluent in writing.

[Interruption]

BN: Did you actually remember seeing, on December 7th, the...

HM: Planes.

BN: ...the planes?

HM: Not really, no. I don't remember that part. But I do know that something was going on. And I guess... well, I mean, just from listening to the radio and all that. They didn't, I don't think the planes flew anywhere near in Makiki anyway. But we just heard through the radio that something was... because of war. And I didn't know what was going to, what was going on. But my husband on the other hand remember seeing the planes, because he was in Wahiawa near Schofield.

BN: When we were talking before, you were mentioning that you had a friend who was injured from antiaircraft fire.

HM: Yes, yes. She lived near the Japanese school.

[Interruption]

HM: Then the missile fell right near my friend's home. She lived near the Japanese school in Nu'uanu, and that killed her brother.

BN: So this is the school, this is the school you went to?

HM: The Chuo Gakuen, the Japanese school.

BN: So had... you could have been there, because you were too tired to go that day.

HM: Yes, I wasn't there that day. But this is all what I had heard. But definitely my friend lost her arm. She's armless.

BN: Was the school destroyed or damaged, badly damaged?

HM: No. I think the missile fell in the yard. In that way, I guess, the buildings were not destroyed. In fact, I think all the Japanese schools were taken over by the state government.

[Interruption]

HM: During the war, my brother and mother and I were the only ones left, because Barney, in the meantime, had been drafted in the army. So he was with the group called 1399 Engineers, he was in that. So only three of us were living in that big house in Makiki.

<Begin Segment 7>

HM: In the fall of 1941, Bob and my sister Alyce went away to school on the mainland. Bob to go to Wharton School in Pennsylvania, and my sister to a fashion design school in Los Angeles, California. And she lived with a minister's, Japanese minister's family. My father wouldn't allow her to leave unless she could stay with a decent family or something because he was worried and he didn't want her to live alone in an apartment or something. So he allowed her to go away, and she lived with this minister's family. Now, when they had to go to camp, she had to go to camp with this family. So she ended up in Manzanar, and she said that every day she would go to the office and say, "I don't belong here. I'm not part of this family, I don't belong here." But she said, well, they wouldn't listen. So she was in Manzanar, and my brother in the meantime was in the East Coast studying, so he was okay. Except because he had studied at Keio University just before the war, and he was fluent in Japanese, the government wanted him to go to Minnesota to teach in the MIS Language School. And he said he refused and he said, no, he turned them down. So in that case, they wanted him to come to Washington, D.C. and help translate some documents. So he had to go to Washington to do that. And I guess after Wharton, he went to New York City to attend Columbia for master's. But then he said he did go to visit my father in camp at Tennessee, when he was in Tennessee, but I guess other than that, I don't know too much except that he said that... I guess eventually they released my father and a Mr. Miyata of Miyata Shoten in Palama. There was a large store called Miyata Shoten in Palama. And they knew each other in camp, so the two left, but they won't allow them to return home. So because Bob could guarantee him, they allowed him to go to New York to live in New York City. So the two went to New York City before the war ended. And they lived on 69th Street, I remember. But (yes), according to Larry, there, he was able to meet with some manufacturers. Because during the war, they couldn't ship anything to Hawaii. So that was sort of towards... just before the war ended, I guess. So that contact with the manufacturers reestablished a lot of the shipping. So I guess he enjoyed that stay because (...) at that time, my brother Bob got married in New York. He met a New Jersey girl, and she's a Nisei, and they got married. So he was able to attend the wedding, and then he came home after that.

BN: So you mentioned that there were just three of you here.

HM: (Yes), only three of us during the war. And so we coped with blackouts, gas masks and air raids, air raid sirens.

BN: And was the business able to keep...

HM: Well, yes. My mother was not fluent in English, so she needed help. And we had a manager, Mr. Miura, who ran the store for us during that time.

BN: But it stayed open.

HM: It stayed open throughout, I don't know. Because they weren't able to get a lot of goods. Well, whatever was in the store, I guess, you know. But they couldn't order anything. But I guess...

BN: You had local suppliers, then?

HM: I think so, but I'm not sure. Because the business end I don't know. I guess, somehow, the store continued.

<Begin Segment 8>

BN: During the war, one of the effects was there was this effort to Americanize the Japanese, speak more English, etcetera. I'm wondering if you remember that and if that had any kind of impact on the family and the business because you're selling Western clothing after all.

HM: Uh-huh. I don't know whether it had impact on the business, but I do recall "speak English" were signs all over the place. And I guess... and then, of course, I went to a school that had all Caucasians, haoles. So I felt, "Gee, are they looking at me as if I'm an enemy?" After all, maybe to them I might be a "Jap." So I felt a little of that, but I don't know, somehow it was okay, I guess.

BN: Earlier you mentioned also the gas masks?

HM: Oh, yeah. We had to, everyone had to carry a gas mask when you go out. We had it hanging (by the side), so even the schoolchildren had to. And we had to learn how to use it.

BN: So even while you're in school you're constantly wearing them?

HM: Oh, no, no. Just when you go out. Going to school and going home. But everyone did have to, it was a government (regulation).

BN: What about the blackouts? Were there curfews also?

HM: (Yes), curfews and we had to put the black curtain or paper over the windows so that we could turn on lights inside. Otherwise, you're not allowed to shine any lights at all.

BN: Were you, were there limitations on going out at night?

HM: Oh, yes, there was a curfew. I think eight o'clock curfew.

BN: This was for everybody, not just Japanese?

HM: I think for everybody. And besides, my mother didn't drive a car, so we couldn't go out anyway.

BN: So how did you get around then?

HM: I took the bus everywhere, or walked. Especially after we moved to Makiki, I had to take the bus to school, transferred and everything. St. Andrews was (in) Queen Emma.

[Interruption]

HM: I had to take the bus everywhere, especially after we moved to Makiki. It was not convenient for me to walk. And I was older, too, at that time. But "older" means third grade. Third grade, fourth and fifth.

BN: You mentioned also air raids. Were these drills?

HM: Yes. Every so often they had drills. Not that we were being attacked, but we had drills to be ready just in case.

BN: What did you have to do?

HM: Well, we had to take shelter if we were outside, we always had to take shelter and go indoors. But it wasn't that often, but we did have to endure that type of thing. The other thing that happened to us while the three of us were living there, my mother, Larry and I, and everyone else from the family had left, there was a notice from us from the government that they wanted to confiscate our property. And it was under eminent domain, where they could, government could do that if they wanted to. They wanted the property for a juvenile detention home, which they eventually did. But we were, Larry and I were too young, my mother could hardly speak English, so we just didn't know what to do. So we had to obey. And luckily they allowed us to stay there 'til my father came home eventually in '46. But this was after Larry had graduated from school and was at the university. And then he was drafted into the army, so my father came home just before he was shipped off to go to language school in Minnesota, the one that Bob was supposed to teach at. And eventually, my husband (who) was in the MIS and went to that school, too. But, so I guess we had to obey, and so we had to sell Makiki. And they allowed us to stay until my father came home, and then we found a place in Manoa, so we moved to that Manoa house. So I had my last two years of high school there.

BN: From when you were in --

HM: Yes, but then I was going to Punahou at that time, so it was very close.

<Begin Segment 9>

BN: So you had just started Punahou really when the war hit.

HM: Yes.

BN: So you mentioned wondering what...

HM: (Yes), I had just started in the fall, and then when the war started, the army engineers wanted to take over the Punahou campus. So no classes could be held there, so every class was held in different places, some at private homes. My class was held at Waioli Tea Room. So I had to, my particular class had to go to school there until later, they allowed us to use the Teacher's College at University of Hawaii for classrooms, so we had school there. And then I guess after the army moved out, we could go back to campus.

BN: But most of the war you were...

HM: (Yes), we were either at... I was either at Waioli Tea Room or after that Teacher's College at University of Hawaii.

BN: Earlier you were mentioning that there was kind of an informal or unwritten quota, ten percent quote/unquote "Oriental."

HM: Yes.

BN: So, but you were mentioning also that there were -- and I found this surprising -- that there were a lot of girls, Japanese, relative to boys.

HM: Oh. Just my class was unusually lots of girls. I don't know how that happened, but...

BN: When you say "a lot," how many are we talking about?

HM: Well, I can count them. [Laughs] I can count them on two hands. So that's a lot, because usually they would take, at that time, it was two Orientals to a classroom. That's either Japanese or Chinese. So we had two Japanese boys, and gosh, about ten Japanese girls. We had a lot. So to this day, we're very close friends. We have lunch together at least once a month or so.

BN: How did the other students accept you being Japanese, but also right after the war?

HM: The war? You know, I... I'm not sure. No one called me "Jap," but it's my own feeling. I'm just not sure, "Are they looking at me like a 'Jap'?" I was not, I was sort of shy anyway, so I guess maybe it was my own thinking. Maybe they think of me as an enemy or something. So I was not really close to any haole friends, but today it doesn't seem to matter. When we have reunions, they're all very friendly. But I don't remember being invited to any birthday parties at their homes. [Laughs] Not like my children when they were going to Punahou, they were invited by haoles. So I think, for that reason, I think we (Orientals) felt a kinship and very close to each other.

BN: In terms of what you were studying, today, expectation is everybody goes to college. Was it also that way and if so, what were you kind of preparing for?

HM: Oh. Nothing specific, but it was a college-orientated school, so everyone is expected to go to college. So I was... at that time, my sister had gone away already, and she was in New York 'cause she married a Nisei in New York and was living there. So I wanted to go to New York or someplace in that vicinity. So I did go away to college. And, well, a lot of my friends did, too. So we sort of, you know, met there, so every once in a while we would get together. But it was expected that we all kind of go to college.

BN: To go back to the wartime, other families that I've talked to have mentioned, kind of felt sometimes that families that the father was interned, there was almost a, they were kind of given a cold shoulder by other members of the community, because of this fear that...

HM: Association? Oh.

BN: Did you feel any sort of tension from other Japanese families?

HM: You know, I guess I was too young to even realize if that was going on at all. But as far as I know, I didn't feel anything.

BN: None of your friends...

HM: Were told not to play with me? No, I don't think so. I had the same friends... well, I was at Punahou already, and then we were close to each other because I think, because we were Japanese, I think we just felt... and then we knew, my parents knew their parents, so it worked out. We always were good friends.

BN: You mentioned that you were able to write, exchange letters with your father.

HM: No, I wasn't, but my mother was.

BN: So you knew where he was.

HM: Well, I didn't really realize. I was too young, but I guess she knew. And I guess... I don't know how she did it, but she had to send money away to my brother and sister, so I guess she corresponded with them.

<Begin Segment 10>

HM: When he went to New York, I guess he needed money to live in the apartment there, so she sent it.

BN: So he was on the first group, and he left pretty early.

HM: December 7th he left.

BN: Well, but he was at Sand Island for a while.

HM: Oh, (yes). I don't know how long he was at Sand Island.

BN: So you must, you wouldn't have ever visited him?

HM: No, I never visited him.

BN: You were probably too young, but a lot of the families opted to join the father on the mainland. Was that ever discussed that you know of?

[Interruption]

HM: I don't remember my mother even asking us if we wanted to go, but I had a good friend in Japanese school, and her father was interned. And eventually, they all went to join him and then they left, they went to Japan. They went back to Japan because I guess they had an option to go back to Japan if they wanted to.

BN: Which family was this?

HM: Akata. Well, see, she was my best friend in Japanese school, and I know that she left to go to the mainland and then to Japan. And I never got to see her after that. Well, she came back after she lived in Japan for many years, she did come for a visit. I didn't have a chance to talk to her about how things were in Japan. It must have been hard. But she married an American fellow in the service, so I guess they came back to the mainland.

BN: What was her name?

HM: Akata. Eleanor Akata.

BN: I knew them.

HM: Huh? You're kidding.

BN: Married Shiz Takoshi. They were like, she was one of my mom's best friends, and I grew up on the mainland. We spent every Christmas, Thanksgiving, etcetera, with them. So there's, my mom and the father still, her husband, are still very close. 'Cause Eleanor died.

HM: Eleanor died, (yes). Oh, my gosh, what a small world. [Laughs]

BN: And then, you know, their kids are like my cousins, and close, we're still close. Dave, the older, is in Florida, and the second, the girl, just had a baby, in Southern California.

HM: Okay, now, I didn't know her brothers because they were older, but I knew a sister, Ruth.

BN: Ruth, yeah. She just passed away.

HM: Oh, she passed away? That's too bad.

BN: It was a couple years ago.

HM: This is incredible.

BN: So she was your close friend.

HM: Yes, in Japanese school, and her father was interned. And so they went back to the mainland and eventually to Japan.

BN: Right, right. My mom also was in Japan, so they, her and another friend, Lillian, who we just saw yesterday, they were kind of close friends in Japan all from here. And they all ended up in L.A. and I grew up with them.

HM: Oh, gosh. This is something.

<Begin Segment 11>

BN: Anyway, okay... so your father kind of gets released to kind of join your oldest brother in New York.

HM: Well, he was released early only because my brother would guarantee him, you know, and because he was in New York and they won't allow him to go back, but he was allowed to go to New York. So he was there for about... I don't know how long, several months if not a year maybe. And then...

BN: Your sister was there also?

HM: My sister was there because after she got released from Manzanar, she went to New York and then she decided to go to college. So she went to Beaver College in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

[Interruption]

BN: So your sister...

HM: (Yes), she was in New York, too, and then my brother got married in New York.

BN: And then did they all come back?

HM: Well, eventually my... well, my father came back, according to Larry, just before he got shipped to the service to Minnesota in '46. So I think Bob came back after that, because we had just... oh, we hadn't moved yet, that's right. We were still at the Makiki house, and we had to move out because the government wanted the place. So we had to quickly find a place. So we moved, and then eventually Bob and his bride came back to Hawaii and lived in that Manoa house with us. But by that time, I was the only one left. Larry had gone already. I was in high school. So Bob took over the management of the company, of the store.

BN: Then when your father came back, was he still involved with the store at all?

HM: Oh, yes, he was. (Yes). But I guess he was getting old, so I guess he felt that Bob should take over. But he went to the store every day.

BN: Did he talk at all about his experience in the camp?

HM: You know, he may have, but I guess I didn't understand Japanese that well, so maybe I didn't understand everything. So I don't know. It must have been hard.

BN: And then you graduated and then you went...

HM: Oh, (yes), I graduated eventually and then went to Skidmore College in Saratoga Springs, New York. Then I could visit my sister on vacations and holidays. But we never did come home. I never came home. My mom didn't want me to go away because I guess she lost so many people from the family, so she thought she could keep me at home and go to the university here, but I didn't want to do that. So she said, "Oh, if you go away, you won't be able to come home for a long time." [Laughs] Trying to talk me into not going. So yeah, I guess I was anxious to fly the coop.

BN: What did you study at Skidmore?

HM: Oh, actually I studied psychology, majored in that. And then I decided I needed (to get my) master's to do anything with it. However, I had heard of a program at Columbia where if you're a social science major or whatever, you could take the special course for teaching and then eventually teach. So I went to Columbia after I graduated for my master's to take that course. So I stayed an extra year. Then when I came home, I got a job with the Department of Education teaching. So I taught at Nimitz elementary the first year, then the second year I taught at Manoa elementary. But after I got married I quit teaching. Well, actually, after I got married and then I became pregnant I decided to quit.

BN: Did you meet your husband...

HM: After I came back, after he came back, too. He had gone... from the army, he decided to use the GI Bill and finish school, then he went to dental school and stayed away for about eight years. So I met him after he got back.

[Interruption]

BN: So I wanted to, yeah, just to finish up with your parents' story, what happened to them after your father came back and what the rest of their life was like.

HM: Well, my father continued his activities and going to the store, but also being active in the Japanese community again. And I guess because of that, I mentioned that he received a Kunsho from the government. I believe, according to the picture I had, it would be around 1967, '68 when he received that medal. And I guess the coincidence is that my husband also received the medal, 1999 he received that. My sister-in-law, who's from Japan, said, oh, she's never heard of too many people whose husband and father received the Kunsho from the Japanese government, so she was very surprised. And then... but my father continued with his activities as usual and tried to work with the Japanese community. And my mother was very active in Japanese Women's Society and Kuakini (Hospital).

<Begin Segment 12>

BN: Now in the 1970s and 1980s there was this whole movement for redress and so forth. I guess, was your father alive at that time?

HM: [Shakes head].

BN: So he wouldn't have, he didn't qualify.

HM: No. He didn't qualify because I think he had died already. And anybody who had died --

BN: What year did he pass away?

HM: You know, I have it down in that folder, but I've forgotten.

BN: Were you aware of the redress movement and what was your feeling about that?

HM: Yes. Well, I thought that was a good thing, and that the government finally realized that it was wrong and apologized, trying to right the wrong. I think my sister was able to get her redress.

BN: Because she was at Manzanar.

HM: Because she was at Manzanar, wrongfully. She was in Manzanar. Eventually, they let her go out, but she was there for a while.

BN: I know you and your husband have been benefactors, supporters of a lot of cultural, historical organizations in Hawaii. Why do you feel that that's important, the culture and the history being preserved and passed on?

HM: Well, I mentioned that we had, we had to go to Japanese school, and at Japanese school, we learned all the values, Japanese values that's over there in the other room.

BN: That's what they're drilling.

HM: That's why they're drilling. And those things were ingrained in us, and I think they're very good values, which I'd like to see the future generations adopt, too. It's something that I think they should be able to... in fact, my husband is a member of a Nisei values club (at the) University of Hawaii. And even the hakujin feel that it's something valuable that should be passed on. And I think we both feel that we'd like to... we could teach and hope that the future generations all adopt the values that we learned as children. So I think that's why we try to encourage being active in these organizations.

<Begin Segment 13>

BN: The last two things I'm gonna ask you about was, one, at JCCH we have the wooden carving of you and the child. I wonder if you could just tell us the story about how that came to be.

HM: Oh. That was, I guess I was in the seventh grade. In fact, the gal (who) was standing next to me and took a picture with me was Eleanor. I can't believe this. But anyway, she was my best friend, and my mother felt that my father should have a picture of me but I guess she decided to allow Eleanor to come with me and we went to the photographer and he took this picture. And that was the first time I had a permanent. So I guess he must have taken that... I guess he learned carving in camp, 'cause I never knew that he could do that. But anyway, so he carved a likeness of me from that picture.

BN: Did he send it back or did he just bring it back when he returned?

HM: I can't remember whether he sent it back or he just brought it back with his belongings, 'cause he probably didn't have too many belongings. But that was a... and I can't find the original picture. And I wanted, Eleanor and I were standing with the photographer.

BN: Now that I know, maybe I'll ask her family. Maybe she's got it.

HM: (Yes), maybe. But I met her husband, Eleanor's husband, and he's a really nice fellow. Actually, after Eleanor died, he said he wanted to bury her at Punchbowl. But then at that time, they were having some problems with burial grounds and all that, so he was waiting. And I don't know whether he eventually did that or not because I told him to please let me know when he does do that because we would want to be there, some of her classmates.

BN: Yeah, I don't know if they, he did.

HM: I don't think he did, he ever came back after that. So he's still in California, right?

BN: Yeah. He's... his health is going down a little bit. I mean, he's still okay, but he has the children a little worried about... where he's going to...

HM: So now, wait. This is your mother's friend?

BN: They were just real close friends.

HM: Oh, they were neighbors?

BN: I think they became good friends in Japan, because my mother was also another family that went to Japan.

HM: Went back to Japan? Oh.

BN: So I think they became close friends in Japan. So she remembers meeting [inaudible] at the time in Japan.

HM: Oh, I see.

BN: He's more Nisei than most Nisei.

HM: Oh, yes. He was, yeah, really nice. Oh, my goodness.

BN: And then I guess the last thing I wanted to ask you is just, having gone through what you did during the wartime, knowing that this, we're doing this for the younger generation, if there's anything, particular message or anything you wanted to share with young people about that time and what it has, how it can impact our future, too.

HM: Oh, dear. That's a hard question. Well, I don't know. I guess with influence of drugs and all that in the society now, I just wish that... because at the time when we grew up, we didn't have any of that, and I think we grew up to be pretty good kids. And so I just hope that they would be able to adopt some of the Japanese values which is really nice. I think they're something that I think future generations should be aware of.