<Begin Segment 1>

SY: Okay, we'll start with the date. Today is November 28, 2011. I am at, we are at Centenary United Methodist Church in Los Angeles, and the videographer is Ann Kaneko. My name is Sharon Yamato, and I am very delighted to be interviewing my oldest sister, Peggy Mikuni, today. It's a treat for me, and it's a little unusual, so I guess we'll have to just start, I want to make sure that we, I'm objective, so I'm gonna try to ask questions that I may know the answers to and also many that I don't know the answers to. So Peggy, why don't we start with when and where you were born?

PM: I was born May 27, 1929, in Los Angeles, California.

SY: And your, can you tell us your full name that you were --

PM: Yes. Peggy Toyo Yamato.

SY: Okay, and Mikuni is your married name.

PM: Right.

SY: So now, do you know how you got that name, how, how your parents came up with that?

PM: My mother said that when I was born there was a child actress by the name of Baby Peggy, and that's why she named me Peggy and not Margaret or not Meg, which most people think, that Peggy should be Margaret or, yes, that's why.

SY: That's interesting.

PM: And Toyo is my grandmother's name.

SY: Your grandmother's name.

PM: On my father's side, right.

SY: Okay. So yeah, now I'm going to probably refer to Mom and, our father was always called Daddy, right?

PM: Right.

SY: So how did that come to be, that we always called him Daddy? Is that...

PM: I think we just called him Daddy. [Laughs]

SY: And then his mother was the one, person you were named after.

PM: Yes, Baachan.

SY: Baachan. And can you tell us a little bit about Baachan, how she came?

PM: Baachan came from Hawaii, and it looks like she was born in Japan in Hiroshima -- no, sorry, she was born in Yamaguchi-ken in a place called Agenosho Oshima-gun, and she was married to Kotojiro Yamato. And they both came to Hawaii, and they were in Hilo. They came in 1893, because the first child was born in 1897, and after they arrived in Hawaii he was kind of a fishmonger, or a seafaring man anyway, and then after about ten years they had a hotel in Hilo. And then he passed away after that and she continued taking in boarders, and then she came to America, and that was in, let's see, 1930. She left Honolulu and came to Los Angeles 1931.

SY: With her family?

PM: She, her family had already come to the United States.

SY: I see. And tell, and can you tell us how many people were, how many children she had?

PM: She seemed to have had eight children, but only five -- well, two were, I think passed away very early, one at childbirth and one at about four months, and one in an accident when she was very young, so really only five were remaining.

SY: I see. I didn't know that. So the one who died in the accident, do you remember her talking about --

PM: Not very much. I just know that Auntie Taneko sometimes mentioned that there was a sister that passed away.

SY: And Auntie Taneko was her, where was she in the order of her children? Maybe you could give us the names of all of her children that survived?

PM: Let me see, I didn't bring all of that, but Eddie Kaichi, our dad, was the first one, and then there was Toshimi Harry, and then there was George, and then there was Taneko, and Kiyo, so the five that survived.

SY: Very good. Yeah, that's amazing that she had eight children.

PM: Yes, I was surprised too when I looked up some of the historical records.

SY: So how did you find the historical records?

PM: There was a lady in Salt Lake City who worked for a genealogical society but she also had a personal interest in this. Evidently Uncle George had married her and she was trying to find out the history of his family because he became a stepfather to one of her sons.

SY: I see.

PM: Yes, and she had sent it to us and so I had that much information. It was more towards George, however, rather than towards Eddie, our dad.

SY: So this was done later.

PM: About ten years ago.

SY: After, after his first wife passed away?

PM: Yes.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

SY: So if we could back up a little, because I'm curious, how much do you know about them, about our grandparents coming to Hawaii? Do we know anything?

PM: I really don't know very much. They got married in Japan and came across to Hawaii, and I know that our dad, Eddie Kaichi was born in a small town called Papaikou, but it's right next to Hilo. And he was born in 1901, and then he came to Los Angeles, as far as I know, before 1923, because he started the Yamato Service Bureau in 1923.

SY: In Los Angeles.

PM: In Los Angeles.

SY: I see.

PM: And he was, he had the Hawaiian hospitality, I should say, and he always wanted to help people, so when he came to Los Angeles from the small town of Papaikou he felt so lost at the airport. He wanted to find something to do to help anybody coming over, and that's why he started the Yamato Service Bureau. He actually got an insurance license, but he also did immigration, he did accounting, he did income tax, immigration, anything to help the Japanese people. So he continued that work until we went to camp, so that was 1941, 1942.

SY: Right. Because his parents really weren't in the same line of work. They ran a hotel.

PM: Yes. Well, the mother had not gone to school. She really couldn't read or write because she probably came from very, very much country, and I'm not sure her husband had very much education as well, so our dad was kind of unusual. He finished high school, but he had so much intelligence and so much sales ability that we were lucky. [Laughs]

SY: Because when he, they ran this hotel, was it, it probably was mostly Japanese immigrants that stayed there?

PM: Right. Yes.

SY: And workers.

PM: Right.

SY: And so it was our father who kind of, was he the one who kind of helped with that business as well?

PM: I think that he was put into a boarding school, and I think it was run by Catholics or Christians, I was told, so he got his education, so he didn't help in the hotel.

SY: Oh. And how about, and all of his younger, younger...

PM: They were very young.

SY: They just went to public school then?

PM: I don't know where they went.

SY: But his father, whose name do you know?

PM: Yes. His father was Kotojiro Yamato.

SY: Kotojiro. So he was, I wonder what he did in Japan. Do you know?

PM: I know he was born in 1866, and I would think he would've done something connected with fishing because he probably lived very much in that area where there were sea --

SY: It was more of a coastal, coastal town. So then when he came here he didn't start the hotel right away. He had to find --

PM: Ten years they the, he did some fishing and selling the fish to the people, like a fishmonger.

SY: I see. And do you know how he died?

PM: No, but he died in 1925 in Honolulu. So he was born in 1866 and he got married in 1893 and he died in 1925, so he was pretty old. That doesn't make sense, does it? I'll have to check that. [Laughs] That doesn't make sense.

SY: [Laughs] As I recall he was fairly young when he died.

PM: Yeah, I think so, so this is a mistake. We'll have to... [laughs]

SY: We'll have to look it up, because his, our baachan, who lived to be very old --

PM: Ninety, yeah. She was born in 1871 and she died 1963 in Pasadena, so that would be ninety-two.

SY: Ninety-two. Wow.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

SY: So now how, so when our baachan came to Los Angeles and, our dad was already here, right? He was already settled?

PM: Yes, he was already here. He must've come in, before 1923. I was born in 1929, and in that time he had called over, I think, Uncle Kiyo and Auntie Taneko, 'cause I have a record where we lived on the west side and we all lived together, Dad and Mom and Uncle Kiyo and Auntie Taneko. There was an interesting thing there, says that he was paying fifty dollars a month for that. [Laughs]

SY: Wow. And managed to put up all those people.

PM: Right, right.

SY: So he was kind of the person in charge.

PM: Yes, yes.

SY: And he took care of his young, his siblings.

PM: Right. And they were nineteen and eighteen at the time.

SY: Oh, so they were not that young actually at the time.

PM: Right.

SY: So do you know anything about, he already had his high school education, so when he came here he just immediately started up this business?

PM: It looks like he did.

SY: And his younger siblings, did they work for him?

PM: Yes -- no. Auntie Taneko found a job as a secretary somewhere, and Uncle Kiyo, looks like he got an insurance license, so he probably was helping at the office.

SY: I see. So whatever this business that, do you remember what he did, what our dad did originally when he came here, before he started this business?

PM: No. I think he was just a high school student and...

SY: And so I imagine that when he called Baachan over to the United States --

PM: It was afterwards.

SY: It was afterwards, so she came by herself?

PM: Yes, she came by herself.

SY: Amazing. And where did she, and what happened? She lived with us, right, for many years?

PM: Right. Yeah, she came to Los Angeles in 1931, so it was two years after I was born and it's one year after Yasuko was born, so that's why -- remember? -- Betty Emiko was kind of her favorite, 'cause she was the first child born after she arrived here.

SY: I see.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

SY: Okay, so maybe now's the time to go through the, your siblings, talk about each, how many siblings there were.

PM: Well, Mom and Dad had nine children. I'm the oldest, and I was born in 1929, and then Mary Jane Yasuko was born in 1930, and then Betty Emiko was born, probably 1932, and then Akiko Evelyn, Evelyn Akiko -- we all had English names and Japanese names -- she was born a couple years after. And then Arlene Chiyeko, so she was the fifth one. And then when we went to camp, Victor Katsuji was born, 1942, and then Phyllis Keiko was born in camp as well. After camp, then there were, let's see, three more, two more?

SY: Two more.

PM: Yeah, Susan Tomiko and Sharon Teruko.

SY: Who is me.

PM: Yes.

SY: That's a good ending to that story. And I'm, you mentioned that we all had Japanese names and American names.

PM: Right.

SY: Do you remember why? Or did...

PM: I think that was the thing to do in those days, just to show that you had some Japanese in you. And they tried to use names that had some meaning with the older people, so like Emiko, I don't know where that came from. Mary Jane Yasuko, Yasuko came from Baachan on our mom's side. Her name was Yasu.

SY: I see. So they paid tribute to their parents.

PM: Right.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

SY: So that's a good starting off point to talk about, a little bit about what you know about our mom's family.

PM: Okay. Mom had a family that, she was, Mom was born September 24, 1909, in California so she was a Nisei, and her parents were Yasu Shimizu and Teru Saburo Shimizu. Now, they came to America probably in 1908 and they probably had a hotel, called the Boyd Hotel, in Little Tokyo, but they also had a restaurant that he was the chef, so we enjoyed his cooking whenever we went to the Boyd Hotel to have his shortribs. It was delicious. [Laughs] And Baachan always said, "Oh, kita kita," when we used to go there. And she used to give us a little kozukai, a little bit of, dollar or something to all of us whenever we went.

SY: Right.

PM: So grandparents are good for that.

SY: Yeah, exactly. They must've done okay because they had this hotel that they kept their whole, their whole life, right?

PM: Right.

SY: And eventually they, they gave it to their son.

PM: Right.

SY: And he ran it.

PM: And he sold it.

SY: He sold it. And you remember this restaurant? Where exactly was it?

PM: No, that I don't remember, but it was a little bit away from Little Tokyo.

SY: And how many children did they have, the Shimizu family?

PM: They had three.

SY: Three.

PM: So Mom and Uncle Tari and one that passed away, Miyoko, Auntie Miyoko.

SY: And how did she pass away? She was young, right?

PM: Yes, I think she became sick, and I don't remember what illness it was. But she was married at that time.

SY: So she was older. But yet still very, very young, right, when she passed away?

PM: Right.

SY: I had heard that she got hit with a baseball. Is that --

PM: This I don't remember.

SY: You don't remember. Interesting. Yeah, 'cause that was the story I remember. [Laughs]

PM: We have different stories.

SY: Yeah, exactly. Interesting to know what you know and what I think I remember. But anyway, so our mother was born in Los Angeles.

PM: Right. She also went to Cal State L.A. when it was downtown. Actually, I think it was UCLA. She went for one year, and then she was working for our dad and they met and got married in 1928.

SY: So she met him...

PM: While she was working at the Yamato Service Bureau.

SY: Oh, so he hired her and then he eventually married her.

PM: Yes.

SY: Okay, that's interesting. Yeah, so she was a secretary. And how did, I remember she learned, she knew how to speak Spanish?

PM: She probably learned it in school, and then there were so many Spanish-speaking people around us in Boyle Heights that she had a chance to use some of it. Yeah, so she was good in Spanish. I remember that too.

SY: Right.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

SY: So when they, okay, so when Dad, Daddy came to Los Angeles, started the Service Bureau, then met our mom and started to have a family right away.

PM: Right.

SY: And then which, at what time did they move to Boyle Heights?

PM: I think it must've been a year or two after, from western, west part of Los Angeles.

SY: Do you remember exactly?

PM: No, I don't remember 'cause I was very young.

SY: Very young.

PM: 'Cause most of my memory is for Boyle Heights, 3456 Eagle Street. [Laughs]

SY: And how --

PM: Near Lorena.

SY: Yeah, how were you born? Were you born in a hospital? Do you know?

PM: I think by a midwife.

SY: A midwife. So you...

PM: I was not in a hospital.

SY: You weren't. So it was somewhere on the west side of Los Angeles.

PM: West side I was born.

SY: It's kind of unusual that you are Sansei, right?

PM: Right, for my age it's a little bit unusual.

SY: Because our parents came over here very early.

PM: Yes.

SY: Our grandparents came very early on.

PM: Right.

SY: So, and then they, once they settled in Boyle Heights, I assume that was a house that they leased?

PM: They just rented, yes.

SY: They rented this house. And can you talk a little bit about that neighborhood, what Boyle Heights was back, this was in the 1930s?

PM: Yes. There were many Japanese families on that block. In fact, we used to have block parties, and some of the families had an outside screen so we could go and watch movies, and it was just very friendly. Almost everybody knew everybody. It was just, I would imagine maybe fifty percent were Japanese, all the way down.

SY: And you grew up, were most of your friends then Japanese, or did you have friends who weren't?

PM: When we went to school, of course, we made friends with some of the other people, but most of them, just because I had so many in my family, we didn't really need to have friends. [Laughs] We had enough friends just among our family.

SY: So you played with your sisters.

PM: I think we were taking care of them. [Laughs]

SY: You were taking care of your sisters.

PM: 'Cause I'm the oldest, yes.

SY: I see. So the oldest, oldest sisters ended up taking care of the younger children. And when you, what elementary school did you go to?

PM: I went to Lorena Street School.

SY: And then from there you went to?

PM: Stevenson Junior High School.

SY: Are they, are they still there now?

PM: Yes.

SY: Really?

PM: As far as I know.

SY: And then you went, you didn't go to high school?

PM: No, we went into camp.

SY: Right. So the people that you met when you were in Boyle Heights, many of those are still your friends, right? Do you still have...

PM: Not really, because in those days we didn't communicate -- well, the Japanese Americans yes, they still are, but not other ethnic groups. We didn't become that friendly.

SY: I see. So you were, but you did manage to stay in touch with some of 'em.

PM: Some of them.

SY: So those people that you met in camp, that when you went to camp, did you, were most of those people from Boyle Heights? Did they stay with you when you went to camp?

PM: Some of them did, yes. So we ended up in the same block almost, but camp was divided into three camps, so we were all kind of sorted out among the camps. But I have some very good friends that were in the same block.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

SY: So when you, when you were very young what memories do you have of Daddy and his business and what he did in, while we were living in Boyle Heights?

PM: He, I was the firstborn, so he used to take me into town and kind of show me off. I remember that. [Laughs]

SY: Really?

PM: Yes. And take me into restaurants. He actually had a partnership in a restaurant, so I remember that as well, on East First Street. But he took me into his office. Actually, we didn't go that much, but he was a very good father because he used to take us to the beach, remember?

SY: Uh-huh.

PM: And Mom used to make obento. And we also made friends with some of the people who were connected with his business, like the Bliss family, because he was with the Internal Revenue, and he also made friends with lawyers because they were critical for his business.

SY: I see.

PM: He was quite a salesman, so we got to be friends and we'd take outings with them.

SY: Yeah, I am curious about this relationship with the Bliss family. They were a Caucasian family that really became very close.

PM: Right.

SY: We were very close to their family. And it was just a business acquaintance?

PM: It started out that way, because he was either with, I think he was Internal Revenue and Daddy had a lot of dealings with them to help the Japanese people, so somehow they just got to become friends and so we used to then go on outings. We have pictures, right, that show that we were together?

SY: Yeah. They were, it was amazing for a non-Japanese family to become close to --

PM: In those days.

SY: Right. And then he was, do you remember what he did in his business? Did he, he was actually helping a lot of Japanese that came into the country? Was that kind of the nature of his business?

PM: Not too much coming into the country, but more just Japanese Americans coming from Hawaii or even locally that didn't have enough English capability, so he would help them because he was fluent in Japanese and English. And he had learned that in school, so that was really good. For being a Nisei that was unusual. Not all Nisei learned Japanese and could be bilingual.

SY: So he, I didn't realize that. So that's what made him...

PM: So he did accounting, he did insurance, he did income tax, and he went to the courts for getting green cards, anything that needed to be done for the Japanese.

SY: I see.

PM: He liked to do it.

SY: Yeah, interesting. And then what was our mom doing at that time?

PM: She was busy having babies. [Laughs] And taking care of them at home.

SY: [Laughs] She stayed home then?

PM: She stayed home.

SY: She stayed home, and our grandmother was living with us too.

PM: She came later, yes.

SY: She came later and she helped take care of --

PM: She helped a lot. In fact, because she was there Mom was able to have so many children, I believe, because she had the Japanese where they say that you shouldn't do anything for maybe, was it forty-nine days, or I'm not quite sure, so Mom didn't do anything and Baachan did everything. So she stayed healthy. Nowadays people get up so soon and it's not good for the health. That's what the Japanese say.

SY: I see.

PM: So Baachan made sure that she didn't do anything for all that time.

SY: She cooked, she cooked and cleaned.

PM: Right.

SY: Now, was there any friction, though, between our mom and Baachan?

PM: After a while there was, but I think it was kind of natural because Baachan worked very hard and she sometimes complained, and Mom got tired of hearing it, so that's where the friction came in.

SY: Right. And of course she was Dad's, our dad was very close to his mom, right?

PM: Right.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

SY: So he was, so how would you describe our mom? What was she like? Was she a hard worker, was she, what would you say? Was she patient? Was she --

PM: She was very patient. I mean, to have so many children, she, we didn't have much money so she'd open up cans of peaches or whatever and dole it out one by one so it was all even. When she went shopping she made sure we all had one pair of socks. She was very careful about that, but she didn't much money, so always she was very thrifty, conservative, and she did her best.

SY: Right. So she, you, do you remember living through the Depression? Those years were --

PM: Not too much, but I was born about '29.

SY: That's when you were born. So, but she, I remember her always talking about living through the Depression and that's how she became so thrifty.

PM: Right, right.

SY: But our father liked to spend money, right?

PM: Yes, he liked to spend money because he was in sales. That's how you gain friends a lot of times, by treating them and by being nice to them. And so Mom always had to try to save wherever she could, so she had a difficult time.

SY: Yeah. That must've been hard. But she stayed at home through all those prewar years? She never started working.

PM: Not that I remember, 'cause there were too many children there. She started working after camp.

SY: After camp. So let's, I guess, talk a little bit about what you remember about when -- well actually, let me ask you this, when you were growing up in that Boyle Heights area do you remember any kind of overt prejudice against Japanese?

PM: No.

SY: Never?

PM: I didn't feel it. Prejudice came into the picture after camp.

SY: Really?

PM: Yes. And I really felt it, and to this day I feel a little bit not as good as some Americans, or the Caucasians 'cause of the prejudice that I had encountered after we came out of camp.

SY: I see.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

SY: So when the war broke out, when Pearl Harbor was, was bombed, you remember where you were?

PM: No, I don't remember. But we were, I think we were living on Fifth, East Fifth Street at that time and it doesn't, I was eleven or twelve, so it didn't really mean anything to me. And then they started talking about going into camps, or conservation, concentration camps, Daddy always said, "Oh no, I'm an American citizen and we don't have to go." But it turned out differently where we all had to go, so he had to get rid of all the things in his office. Of course he didn't own the building or anything like that, so yes, it was a very difficult time for them, I'm sure. And Mom rounded up all the pillowcases and put ties through them so that we could use them as bags to put whatever we could fit into it that we could take.

SY: So you didn't have suitcases. You used pillowcases.

PM: Right, right.

SY: So every child had a pillowcase.

PM: Right.

SY: You remember what you took, what you --

PM: No, I don't remember, but we had to go on a train and we ended up in this very dusty Arizona town, and it was Poston. And we went into the barrack and there was sawdust or dust all over the barrack, and we had to stuff our pillows with sawdust so that we could have a pillow to sleep on, and all eight of us were in one tiny cabin.

SY: Really? One section of the barrack?

PM: Uh-huh. There are four sections and we had one end section, 30-12-A. I remember that.

SY: Wow. So they made you, they didn't separate the family at all? They made all --

PM: No, but in a few months, I'm not quite sure when, they did find another room for us, so Baachan and myself and Betty, maybe a few of us, went over there.

SY: Was it adjacent?

PM: It was in Block 31, so it was in the next barrack over.

SY: But not the next room over. It was just the next building over. And how is it, do you remember, how is it that you never went to assembly center?

PM: I think because Dad just insisted that we're going to stay out as long as we can, somehow. I don't know that part.

SY: Right. Because, did you remember most of your friends or whatever having to go? 'Cause there was a gathering place, right, in Little Tokyo?

PM: I don't remember that.

SY: Don't remember. So were you in school at the time? You were in elementary school?

PM: Yes, I was in junior high school.

SY: You were in junior high school and you --

PM: Robert Lewis Stevenson Junior High School.

SY: -- you probably had mostly Japanese friends that were...

PM: Yes, we had, uh-huh.

SY: So there was never, you don't remember if there was any talk in school, like mentioning what's gonna happen?

PM: No.

SY: Nobody said anything negative? You don't remember any negative comments from kids?

PM: No. 'Cause you were too young.

SY: You were too young, and then our family was so big. You didn't have to go talk to anybody else. [Laughs] So there was some sort of protest that our father made very, to somehow --

PM: Probably so, yes.

SY: -- make it to, so that you went directly to Poston.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

SY: And once you got in Poston, then do you remember the first things you did?

PM: I just remember filling the pillowcases with...

SY: Sawdust.

PM: Sawdust, and sleeping there. And of course the bathrooms, there were no partitions. It was in a building on the walkway, and then they have a cafeteria where we all went to eat.

SY: And how was, like, Baachan handling it?

PM: She took it in stride. Now, to wash our clothes there was another place, another building where they had water and soap, and we all went to wash our clothes there because we just lived in one room. But as the days passed, then people became more ingenious and thought of ways to, even Baachan started growing some vegetables in the canals and maybe feeding us once in a while some of the vegetables. But otherwise we ate in the mess hall. Lamb, which we learned to eat, and it wasn't very tasty, but we had to eat it.

SY: Your favorite foods, right? [Laughs] Yeah, it was a totally different diet, right, than we were used to?

PM: Yes.

SY: Or you were used to. So you, do you remember not liking it, how, what you felt about the whole thing?

PM: No. Being young and enjoying food, and really we, I kind of enjoyed, but Mom had two children in camp, so we had to help her. When the first one was born Baachan and I went to the hospital to watch over Mom while she was delivering the baby. And up to this time we had five girls, and so, and Dad was playing mahjong with his friends in a barrack. [Laughs]

SY: You remember that?

PM: Yes.

SY: At the time that the kids were born --

PM: Yes, the first one, and it was a boy, but we decided to go back and tell Daddy that, "Oh, it's just another girl," so he says okay and he kept on playing mahjong. We decided after a few hours we would tell him, and he jumped up, he was so happy 'cause this was the first boy after five girls. So he named him Victor because Victor with a Y for Yamato means "victory." [Laughs] And the Japanese name is Katsuji, which means to win, so he was very happy.

SY: He was very happy. And you remember him saying that, exactly why he named Victor that?

PM: And then after that we had another sister. Phyllis was born. So I was pretty busy washing diapers in the washroom, and I always asked the mess hall to save the grapefruit skins for us so that we could use it as kind of a Clorox, purifier to make it more clean, more white. And they had scrub boards there, so we did that.

SY: Wow.

PM: Then I could go out and play after that was over.

SY: Oh my gosh. And then, and Mom at the time was nursing them then?

PM: Yes, yes. She always nursed them.

SY: And were you the one who had to take most of the responsibility as the oldest daughter?

PM: Probably, yeah. And then Dad was working during the day. I think he was earning twelve dollars a month, because the highest paid was about eighteen dollars, the doctors and all of that.

SY: I think it was sixteen. That's what I've read.

PM: It was sixteen.

SY: I'm not sure.

PM: Yeah, it might've been.

SY: And he was working doing what?

PM: Probably some office work somewhere.

SY: So he kept busy. He, did he complain about camp?

PM: No.

SY: Never complained, huh?

PM: No, that I, not that I -- we were so busy. We were going to school, we were going to church, I was playing the piano at the church and also helping in the office for Reverend Kota, the minister there, so we all kept busy doing one thing or another.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

SY: So, we skipped the part where you learned piano. When did that happen?

PM: That was before the war. And Mom doesn't play the piano; Dad used to play by ear. They wanted us to learn the piano, so there was a missionary lady, Miss Dorkiserly, who was teaching piano at twenty-five cents an hour.

SY: A lesson.

PM: Uh-huh. And so all of us took piano lessons.

SY: All of you?

PM: Well, all five of us, yes. But I'm not quite sure if the youngest took it or not, but I know the one next to me, Mary Jane, she really, really enjoyed it and so now, as you know, she's a concert pianist and also writing music and teaching.

SY: That's amazing that they all insisted you take piano.

PM: Yes, yes. She really wanted us to learn the piano.

SY: So, and each, I mean, was there any resistance? Everybody was fine with taking -- even, even Betty took piano lessons?

PM: Right.

SY: Because she still, she doesn't play anymore, right?

PM: No.

SY: But all the rest of you do.

PM: I think Susie and Sharon, I'm not sure if they took it before the war because they might've been very, they were born after the war. That's right.

SY: Right, right. And every, I remember all of my sisters playing piano.

PM: Is that right?

SY: I wish, I wish I had learned. [Laughs] But so were you active in the church before the war? Did you go to a church in Boyle Heights?

PM: Went to Union Church.

SY: Union Church.

PM: In Little Tokyo.

SY: So you went from Boyle Heights to Little Tokyo to go to church.

PM: That's right. Daddy and Mom were insistent that we go to church every Sunday.

SY: And they wanted you to go to Christian church, not Buddhist church.

PM: Right.

SY: And was there a reason for that, do you know?

PM: No, but Baachan was a Buddhist and she always said doesn't matter which church you go to as long as you go to church 'cause you're not gonna learn anything bad at a church. So Dad, I think, is the one that wanted us to go to a Christian church.

SY: But you never found out why?

PM: He never went himself, no.

SY: Right, I know he never went himself and I wonder he wanted, I wonder if it had anything to do with being American. You know, going to a Christian church.

PM: Maybe.

SY: Maybe, but yeah, he never talked about it. So you went to, that was Reverend Toriumi?

PM: Toriumi, yes.

SY: He was at Union Church back then.

PM: Donald Toriumi.

SY: And then did he end up going to the same camp with you, Poston?

PM: No, not that I know of. But I met a lot of ministers in camp.

SY: I see. So you, when you --

PM: I was active in the Christian church in camp.

SY: In camp, so that's where you played piano.

PM: I tried.

SY: Did you play, you played piano for church.

PM: I tried. [Laughs]

SY: So were all your sisters also playing piano there too?

PM: No. Mary Jane and I happened to play "Pomp and Circumstance" at one graduation ceremony in camp. We played a duet.

SY: Oh, a duet. Wow. So you, at that time you and she were playing sort of the same level?

PM: Yes. And we were also taking piano lessons in camp.

SY: And who taught piano lessons?

PM: I think Miss Kawakami, as I recall. I'm not quite sure.

SY: One of the Japanese, the other Japanese women there. And there was, what kind, where did you find the piano to use?

PM: That's something that I'm kind of thinking of now. [Laughs] Maybe we didn't take --

SY: It must not have been right away. It was sometime...

PM: Probably.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

SY: Yeah, because you were going to junior high in camp?

PM: Yes. And then I went into senior high.

SY: Senior high, so what was the junior high school that you went into in camp? Was it --

PM: It was Poston, in Poston.

SY: So all the kids in Poston went to one junior high school and then, and just Camp I?

PM: We just had one, yeah, we just had one junior high school, one high school.

SY: In the, in your camp? There were three camps.

PM: Right. Each camp had a school.

SY: Each camp had its own junior high and its own senior high school. So those people that you met in junior and senior high school, were they, many of them were from Boyle Heights?

PM: They were from all over.

SY: They were from all over. So the people that you met in camp, do you still...

PM: With some of them, yes.

SY: Some of them. Yeah, because you were fairly, I mean, you were young but you were not that young, so you have a better memory, probably, than some of your younger sisters.

PM: Yes. I was thirteen, then I went to high school, let's see, yes, a couple of years. Then I came out and went to Manual High School in Denver.

SY: After the war. But you, but so really your life in camp was spent going to, helping with the chores, going to school, and then going to church, right? So what was the, what was your social life, what was social life with the young kids your age? Did you play much with the other kids?

PM: No. I know there were basketball teams. I'm not very athletic, so we didn't do that. And we had camp, we had socials, so we would go to that, but just going to school took a lot of our time.

SY: And so you studied, and how, was it difficult, the schooling?

PM: The schooling, I would say, is difficult because it was all Asians. They all seemed to really study hard and they have good brains, and so some of the professors turned out to be Japanese Americans that had gone to college and they kind of graded us very, very strictly. [Laughs]

SY: So, but you did, you managed to do okay?

PM: I managed to do okay. [Laughs]

SY: Your, did you excel in anything? Was, were there, did you have favorite...

PM: I got one B, it was a B-plus -- the rest were all A's -- and that was by Ben Sanematsu in geometry, which I never could get onto anyway. [Laughs] But I used to have a friend try to help me, but he graded on some kind of a college principle where you, only certain people, ten percent get A --

SY: Curve.

PM: Yeah, the curve. So that's why I didn't make it into A.

SY: But that's terrific, Peggy, your, you got all A's. Was that true of everybody in the family, or just you?

PM: I don't remember that.

SY: 'Cause that's, I can imagine that it was very difficult going to school with...

PM: All Asians.

SY: Was it, do you remember, did it feel more difficult than when you were in Boyle Heights? Did you study as hard when you were in Boyle Heights?

PM: I don't think so. But it's, after I came out it was so easy. So we left camp about 1945 and I went to Manual High School, and it was so easy that I actually skipped to get into twelfth grade and graduated a half year before graduation, because it was just nothing to do.

SY: Wow. Isn't that something? So it probably paid off for you in some ways.

PM: I was fifteen and a half when I finished high school and I couldn't find a job. They all said I'm too young, so that was the hard part, so finally I ended up working for Dad. Actually, he wanted me to work for him anyway.

SY: I see. That's amazing. Fifteen and a half is young for...

PM: High school graduate.

SY: Because you skipped those two grades.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

SY: So when you were toward the end, you were in camp, how long was the family in camp?

PM: I think about two and a half years.

SY: Two and a half years, so they left a little bit early.

PM: Yes, just a bit early. But Dad had left a little earlier than that, maybe after about a year, and he went out to Denver and he found that Japanese Americans were having a very hard time finding jobs. So instead of doing insurance service or accounting he decided to open up the Yamato Employment Agency to help Japanese people find jobs. And he did that for several years, and of course I had to work for him as well, so after so many years he decided to go back to Los Angeles and he started the Yamato Employment Agency in Los Angeles. Because by that time Uncle Kiyo was doing insurance, so he didn't want to do the same thing.

SY: So how is it that he ended up going to Denver after?

PM: It's just one of the cities that became available for him to go to.

SY: Did it have anything to do with the rest of his siblings? That they were...

PM: This I don't remember.

SY: Do you remember, like, his --

PM: I think Uncle George and Uncle Kiyo, some of them were in Utah. I don't think they were in Denver, but that's one part that's kind of a blur.

SY: But when you, when you moved to Denver -- he went first.

PM: Yes.

SY: And then Mom and Baachan gathered --

PM: All of us went.

SY: -- gathered all of you, the rest of you to go all at once to Denver.

PM: Yes.

SY: So you took a train out of camp?

PM: I believe so. We would've had to.

SY: So there was a big, pretty big age difference then between the siblings, so you really did, you were ten, eleven, twelve years older than the ones that were born in camp, so you really did have to take care of them, huh?

PM: Maybe, but it just becomes natural, so you don't really think about it as a chore. It's just something you do.

SY: So you remember when you, where you first settled when you got to Denver?

PM: I'm pretty sure that we were near, on Lafayette Street, 2918 Lafayette Street. It was a big home and it was near the Manual High School.

SY: I see.

PM: So we walked there.

SY: Is that kind of downtown Denver?

PM: No. It's...

SY: Suburb.

PM: Uh-huh.

SY: I see. And he had already gotten, leased a, rented a house by the time you got there, and you all stayed together while you went to high school. And then was that when Mom started going to work?

PM: Yes.

SY: So she started working right after camp?

PM: This I don't remember, but I think so because Dad probably needed help. But I was working there too after a while.

SY: Right. And there were, I guess, quite a few Japanese Americans who went to Denver, is that --

PM: Yes.

SY: So you, so then you were among other Japanese Americans then. And that was, was that something that you remember being in a little community, or how would you describe Denver?

PM: Well, there was an area that was like a Japanese-town, and it's near Larimer and Lawrence and Nineteenth and Twentieth Street, and all of the Japanese were kind of clustered around there. So there were restaurants, there were hotels, there were markets. And some of them are still there, but there aren't as many Japanese there as there used to be.

SY: So did our dad become a part of that community like he did in Little Tokyo before the war?

PM: Yes, yes.

SY: So he knew a lot of the people who were... Denver was kind of a place where there was a lot of controversy during the war because of the editor of the newspaper there. Do you remember any of that?

PM: No. Which editor?

SY: He was, Rocky Shimpo was the name of the paper.

PM: Oh, I see.

SY: But you don't remember that?

PM: You mean, let's see, what was his name?

SY: Now you've got me.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

SY: Yeah, but he, but because, I guess, a lot of, there were a lot of Japanese Americans in Denver, but you, is that, that's when you started feeling a little bit of, feeling a little different?

PM: No, no. When I came out and I went to go eat at a restaurant, actually a coffee shop, and I didn't get waited on and I didn't get waited on, so somebody said, oh, because that waitress has somebody in the service and doesn't like Japanese. See, but I'm Japanese American, but she didn't know the difference.

SY: I see.

PM: And so after that I hesitated to go into any coffee shops, especially, I don't know why I went there by myself, but I was and I remember that pretty distinctly.

SY: So that was the most, I mean, do you have, remember other experiences, similar experiences?

PM: Not really, but just inside of me I didn't feel as good as the Caucasians for some reason, thinking that we're second rate citizens.

SY: And that was, that was maybe --

PM: In Denver.

SY: In Denver, so after leaving the, did camp, how was camp as far as how did you feel about being in camp with all Japanese Americans? Was that...

PM: Because I wasn't that old we actually enjoyed, we had a good time in camp. But it was harder for our parents, of course, but for us I think we were okay.

SY: But for many years you just didn't want to talk about it.

PM: No. This is very unusual to start talking about it now, so it's kind of become a blur in our minds. It's just something that happened, and we don't think anything about it.

SY: Yeah, that's so, I'm so happy that you're talking about it because, is there a reason that you, you can remember?

PM: No reason at all. I actually have the problem of forgetting things that are not so pleasant, and I tend to remember the good things, which is good, but then it's hard to remember.

SY: Right. That's very common, I think.

PM: Is that right?

SY: Yeah, a lot of people completely block out certain things about --

PM: Also happens in my business. If something had happened I tend to block it out after a while, so when people say, "Don't you remember when we had all those problems?" No. [Laughs] Then it'll come back to me, which is good for me 'cause it's not good to dwell on bad things.

SY: So that's why you, that may have something to do with not talking about...

PM: Yes, probably.

SY: Because do you remember our family talking about camp, or people --

PM: No.

SY: You remember asking them or, nobody said anything about it.

PM: No, we just didn't talk about it.

SY: So it was just a, sort of like it didn't happen.

PM: Right.

SY: And then when you, you never talked about it with your friends, obviously, either?

PM: No.

SY: Because most of the people you knew in camp, right, were, became, did they become your friends afterwards?

PM: Yes, yes. I have many people that I still communicate with from camp, which is kind of unusual. Not too many people keep up, but I have kept up with many of them.

SY: With a lot of your friends. And they are, are they like you? Do they not, do they prefer not to talk about it, do you know?

PM: We haven't even mentioned it at all. We just talk about our daily lives now.

SY: I see. So most people just don't even talk about it, which is -- so anyway, but that's, and there was no, do you remember any kind of anger that our dad felt about camp?

PM: No, I don't. 'Cause we just didn't have that kind of personal conversations in our home, and then at dinnertime Dad always said don't speak, so we had to just be quiet and eat. [Laughs]

SY: Was that only true for the women in the room, or just was he...

PM: That's all we had, besides... [laughs]

SY: Besides our brother. He didn't want anybody to speak.

PM: Yeah.

SY: He liked the peace and quiet, was that the reason?

PM: He just didn't think that we should be talking when we're eating.

SY: I see.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 15>

PM: Well he was very strict, especially with me, with all kinds of manners and customs, which I feel is, was good for me because...

SY: So he, well, you were, being the oldest, you were probably the closest to him.

PM: In one sense, but also he was so strict that I could never, ever speak back to him or talk back to him. But he always said, "If you're going to say something about somebody it better be nice or don't say it at all," so he had his principles, which was good.

SY: And he taught, he taught you manners too? Certain things that you --

PM: Oh yes, women don't smoke, women don't chew gum, women don't stay out late in bars. [Laughs] So he was very strict. Women don't stay out late just on dates even.

SY: So when you started dating, how did that affect you?

PM: He was insistent that I'm home by a certain time, and I tried to adhere to those rules.

SY: You never got in trouble.

PM: No.

SY: [Laughs] Not that you can remember.

PM: Right. I don't, yeah, I just know if I came back after ten o'clock at night he'd yell at me, "You're very late," and the boy took off in a flash. [Laughs]

SY: So before you were married did you go out with a lot of young men?

PM: I did, from church, and he was critical of people that I saw, but Mom was very, very good. But then I started to date my husband Fred and Dad kind of liked him, so he actually hired him to work in the office so he could see what kind of a prospect he would be for a husband.

SY: I see. And how did he come to like Fred so much?

PM: He checked on his background because he came from Yamaguchi-ken, which is what he really wanted because his parents were from Yamaguchi-ken, and he found out that Fred is okay and his parents are okay, except that the parents are strict. But he thought it would be alright for me to go out with him.

SY: I see. And did you meet his parents, Fred's parents, when you started dating him?

PM: Not...

SY: Right away.

PM: Not right away, yes.

SY: And they were living in Denver?

PM: They were living in Denver. And also he was a Christian. Fred used to come to the church, so that made it nice too.

SY: The church in Denver. So you were always going to church, right? From camp and then you found the church in Denver and then joined that church. So tell us a little bit about Fred's background. Where did, where did he go to camp?

PM: He didn't go to camp, actually. He was born in Stockton, then his family moved to Salinas, where they worked for a farm growing onions. And they were there in Salinas until the war broke out, and they decided to go on their own to Colorado, and it's a city called Ault, so Fred was the oldest and so he drove their family car all the way to Ault, so he never went to camp. He lived there until they came out to Denver.

SY: I see. So he had how many siblings?

PM: He had three, four actually. Rose, Willie, and the youngest that has passed away, so actually there are four of them, so three siblings.

SY: But the three were the ones that...

PM: He drove with his parents all the way to Ault.

SY: Wow. And then so he was how old?

PM: He was about nineteen or twenty, and he volunteered for the army and so he went into the service, and he was, yeah.

SY: During the war he was in the service?

PM: But then the war ended so he didn't have to go to Europe, so he was asked to go to Japanese training so he could go to Japan for the occupation. So he was there for the occupation.

SY: So he was in the Military Intelligence Service.

PM: Not quite, but he was in the...

SY: He was in the army, but he, so was it because of his language skills that he was asked to go to Japan?

PM: He had to learn.

SY: So he spent time in Japan, then?

PM: Yes, he did.

SY: This was all before you met him.

PM: Right.

SY: And then he came out of the army and then came directly back to Denver. Or Ault? Were they still living in Ault?

PM: Ault, uh-huh. Then he came out to Denver.

SY: I see. So how did you two meet?

PM: At church.

SY: And he was just, you were both just attending church and that's just --

PM: Yes, yes. I was in the choir, or I might've been playing the organ, so he used to come to church and he asked me out, so we started going out.

SY: I see. And was he in, going to school then, when you met?

PM: He was, yes, going to school for machine shorthand.

SY: Machine shorthand? Oh, so you do it like a typewriter?

PM: Right, right.

SY: Was that useful then?

PM: I don't know, but it was a business school that he went to. Then he graduated, but he couldn't find a job, so then he went to work for a produce firm.

AK: We have four minutes left.

SY: Okay. So, okay, we have, but during this time that you met him you were working.

PM: Yes, and I was also going to school during the day at the university -- in the evening, University of Colorado Extension School.

SY: And you were studying what?

PM: Bookkeeping, accounting. Business.

SY: So you always took business courses. And that was something you enjoyed?

PM: Yes, very much. I took four years at night.

SY: And you knew that that's what you wanted to do?

PM: Yes.

SY: And you were, but did you always want to work for the family, or did you want to do --

PM: No. I wanted to work otherwise. But I learned a lot working with Dad 'cause he was very, very strict and made me use my head. So I learned to be quick and accurate.

SY: I see. That was his, interesting.

<End Segment 15> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 16>

SY: I'm interested in more, talking more about our father because I, he died when I was still in junior high -- no, no, elementary school. Junior high school.

PM: He died when, in 1960.

SY: 1960.

PM: And he was only fifty-nine years old, so it was pretty young for having had nine children with our mom. But he lived a good life. He enjoyed life, so that was okay.

SY: So how was, so talk a little bit more about how he was as an employer, because you had to work for him for so many years.

PM: Yes, he was very strict, but everybody knew he had a really kind heart, but he didn't show it too much. So I don't know why it is we always knew that he was okay, but he was very strict. On first of every month he felt we all should be there early because unless we're there early the money's not gonna come in, so we all had to be there early, especially himself. Now normally bosses don't have to be there on time, but it's something that he had instilled in me as well.

SY: He had traditions, I think, that were very Japanese. Do you, would you call Dad a very Japanese?

PM: Yes.

SY: He, I remember him saying always to hurry up and be on time and that kind of thing.

PM: Right.

SY: His brothers, though, his younger siblings were very different from him.

PM: Right.

SY: And how was that? How did that happen? Is it because he was in charge?

PM: Maybe so. I really don't know about that because they didn't live with us when we were older, but Uncle Kiyo was more kind of lackadaisical, very... yeah, I think his wife had a little hard time because he spent his money as well. But Uncle Harry never did get married. Auntie Taneko was nice. She had a nice husband who passed away when he was forty-two so she had a hard time, but everyone has his own ups and downs.

SY: It's curious to me, though, that he, that Daddy, our father, was so active in the community. He really did make a lot of friends.

PM: Yes, he loved to do that, and even with Yamato Employment Agency he had a basketball team that he sponsored, and he tried to help in any way that he could. And he always gave sales items, like calendars, to everybody so that they would remember Yamato Employment Agency. He would pass them out himself, actually, go into the establishment, the restaurant or whatever it was, but if they didn't put up that calendar then he wouldn't leave it there. [Laughs] So that's how sales oriented he was. But he would go into establishments and say, "Do you know who I am? I'm Eddie Yamato of Yamato Employment Agency." He was very proud of the name Yamato because it means, Japan at one time was called the "Land of Yamato," and he said there aren't too many Yamatos. Unfortunately he didn't do too much to increase the name of Yamato because he had eight girls and one boy. It will probably die out. Even now Yamato in Japanese is spelled "big peace," and so some people say Daiwa instead of Yamato.

SY: Really?

PM: But Yamato is a good name and he was very proud of it.

SY: Yeah. How, you don't, do we know how that name, any further back than his father?

PM: No. It has always been Yamato as far as I could go back and see.

SY: Right. 'Cause a lot of people say Yamamoto. I know that's very common.

PM: Right. That's very common. But Yamato is not very common.

SY: I see. So he really sort of prided himself on his name. Yet I'm curious, was he able to make money, though, being as salesman-like as he was?

PM: He made money, and I tried to help him save it. We had a bank vault where we kept some of the money. He was pretty good at it, but he did spend a lot as well. He had his pleasures, so he could use it.

SY: He lived high.

PM: Right.

SY: And then when, our mom started working for him, right?

PM: Yes.

SY: So she then did what kind of work for him?

PM: She did the employment agency, interviewing people and placing them on jobs, but she had nothing to do with the money.

SY: She didn't?

PM: No.

SY: Did he, so what exactly did he do? Was it just being, going out and doing kind of the PR?

PM: He would interview people for jobs and put, and then go to employers and try to find if they had any jobs that he could bring his people to. He's placed many people all around town. And then when we moved from Denver Fred started working there as well, and he placed many people on jobs.

SY: So it, and it became not just for Japanese Americans. It was more, more of a...

PM: Right. Any kind of people that needed jobs.

<End Segment 16> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 17>

SY: So, now, why was it that he moved from Denver to Los Angeles?

PM: 'Cause he wanted to come back to Los Angeles. And the business wasn't that, doing that well in Denver. And I happened to be working there, and so he couldn't sell the business so I continued it for a couple of years, and I was finally able to sell it and then I came back to Los Angeles. At that time I had two children, so we came back and then I worked for him, and I didn't have any more children.

SY: Wow. You actually stayed in Denver and ran the business for him for two years.

PM: For two years. Because he couldn't sell it.

SY: And what did you do? You were running the employment agency?

PM: Uh-huh.

SY: So you were getting jobs for people?

PM: Yes.

SY: And how many people were working there when you were?

PM: Probably just a couple.

SY: And how big was it when he was there? How big was the business?

PM: Not that many more, maybe about three people. It was just a small office.

SY: And then did he ask you to stay in Denver? Was that his choice, or were you...

PM: Well he couldn't sell it, and I decided just to stay.

SY: And that was fine with Fred. So how old were your children then?

PM: They were, Joanne was two and a half and so Gary must've been about three and a half. They're only one year apart.

SY: And you were working and taking care of the kids.

PM: Yes.

SY: How did you manage that?

PM: [Laughs] I used babysitters, the next door lady, Mrs. Humboldt, to take care of the kids during the day, and so I was able to work. And then Fred was working for the government and not earning much money, so at night I'd come home and then I went out to work part time for Aldrich & McCabe, made a little bit of money there. Money was very tight in those days.

SY: Wow. So you worked in the family business during the day and then worked at night in a different business.

PM: Turned out that I was making more money at night, so I hired somebody during the day to work in the employment agency.

SY: Wow. Did that give you any feeling like, "I would rather work somewhere else than work in the employment agency"? [Laughs]

PM: Yes, yes. [Laughs] I'm afraid that I really didn't like employment agency too much, but when we came back to Los Angeles I worked there until one day somebody -- well, Dad always advertised in the Hawaii newspapers, if you want a job call Yamato Employment Agency, and so pretty soon about fifty percent of our applicants were from Hawaii. One day TransOcean Airlines, a supplemental carrier, came in and said, "How about selling tickets for us?" And that's how we started the travel business. So he went to Hawaii and set up about three agents to sell tickets for us, then he advertised in the newspapers, "Come to Los Angeles, we'll find you a job, and if you don't have anywhere to go you can always come to Yamato Employment Agency and we will always help you cash your check." We'll -- he even lent money, actually -- but, "We'll meet you at the airport and find a place for you stay," so he had many dormitory-like rooms that he worked with some people to find them a place to stay and helped them find jobs.

SY: So he, then would he go back and forth from Hawaii while he was doing this?

PM: No, we would just correspond or telephone them.

SY: So he put you in charge of the travel business?

PM: Yes, just because I enjoyed it more working with people who are happy to be going somewhere rather than trying to collect from people who are trying to find a job. [Laughs] And in those days we had to collect from the client. Nowadays the employers pay the fees, but in those days the people who came to look for a job had to pay a fee, and it was very hard for me to collect when they didn't have enough money to begin with.

SY: I see.

PM: Yeah, so then I started working in the travel agency, and then it just outgrew the employment agency and so we finally closed the employment agency. We were getting too many immigrants that couldn't speak English. It was hard to find jobs for them.

SY: I see.

<End Segment 17> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 18>

SY: So the employment agency, though, for a while, when you first came back -- this was in what year? Nineteen...

PM: '55, when I came back.

SY: When you came back, so he came back a little earlier and started this office. And where was the office?

PM: In Little Tokyo.

SY: So he just leased space and opened up --

PM: It was at 312 East First Street, and right on the corner of First and San Pedro. And he opened up and he found an office on the second floor. He always liked being on a high, higher floor because since the Japanese are so curious, if they come to an office on the first floor and somebody else sees them, "What are you doing there? Oh, you're looking for a job?" But it's also the same for travel. He didn't want it on the ground floor because people would say, "Oh, you're going somewhere?" And it was just too nosy.

SY: He wanted it to be a little more private.

PM: Right. Because Japanese worry about giving some money for them for the trip -- it's called sendetsu -- and things like that. So if it's in a building and they go a higher floor, nobody knows where you're going, right? And people...

SY: Interesting.

PM: Lots of things like that. He put up a neon sign on the second floor, Yamato Employment Agency, the first neon sign inside of a building.

SY: Really?

PM: And he was always thinking of things, always a purpose for whatever he did.

SY: I see. Because of, and that building at the time was owned by Taul Watanabe?

PM: Right.

SY: So he was, and did you remember anything about him?

PM: Not too much, no.

SY: But he, Dad didn't have much to do with him.

PM: No, we just paid the rent.

SY: Even though he owned this building, right?

PM: I'm not sure that it was he that owned it at that time, but I know he owned it later.

SY: That's right.

PM: And then Mr. Ueda owned it after that.

SY: That's right.

PM: Then the earthquake damaged it, so it's been rebuilt.

SY: Right. Yeah, for many years it was the Taul Building, though, right?

PM: That's right, that's right.

SY: And so he, but that wasn't the reason he came here and just opened up on that second floor.

PM: He always wanted to be in Little Tokyo.

SY: He did?

PM: Yes. He just wanted to be in Little Tokyo. That's why I've continued to be in Little Tokyo.

SY: And do you remember, I mean, he just felt closer to the people there?

PM: Right. He wanted to serve the Japanese.

SY: I see.

PM: So that's why.

<End Segment 18> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 19>

SY: So he, I, interesting that I remember him being kind of very strict, like you do, but also very, like had an angry side to him, a little bit of bitterness because of the war. You never saw that, though, huh? Never saw that side of him?

PM: I probably tried not to see it, but yes, I saw many sides of him that were angry. But I didn't attribute it to anything.

SY: You thought maybe it was his personality more. I mean, I can't say what it was, but I just remember that because he would be very angry. Sometimes he was very angry, right, at home? [Laughs]

PM: You know, I don't remember. So there's some things that I've blocked out of my mind. I just know that when he woke up in the morning, when I was living at home on Lafayette Street in Denver, if I heard him move upstairs I was up and I was in the kitchen and I was preparing his breakfast 'cause I didn't like him to get upset with Mom, and he used to get upset with Mom a lot. At dinnertime he'd complain 'cause the food didn't taste right, it was too sweet, it was too salty, and she had no way to know. He used to go out to eat so he knows what food should taste like, so she was always getting scolded. Sometimes she left the table crying. So I just vowed that I wanted to try to be a good cook so he won't complain, and that's when I started trying to study recipes and trying to be a good cook that will match his taste.

SY: You succeeded. [Laughs]

PM: Well I've tried. [Laughs] 'Cause it was just too hard to hear him complain. But that was his nature. He had to complain or he wasn't satisfied. I do remember that much.

SY: Yeah, I remember that too.

PM: Yes. [Laughs]

SY: I remember when his car came in the driveway we would jump up because we didn't want to be...

PM: Yes. He didn't like us slouching at the table; we had to sit up straight. He didn't like elbows on the table. He just was very strict.

SY: Yeah. Amazing though, because it, I'm just curious whether that is a Japanese upbringing, from -- because he was born here, but...

PM: Right. He was so Japanese in his thinking.

SY: In his thinking. So he got that, obviously, from his father, or parents.

PM: Must have. Or in his schooling. I don't know which.

SY: Yeah.

<End Segment 19> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 20>

SY: So then he was probably more generous with you because when he came here and then you, he worked, you worked with him, then he was okay with your taking over the travel business kind of.

PM: There was nothing to take over, actually, but I just continued it, yes. The travel business here?

SY: Uh-huh. When you came to Los Angeles.

PM: He just needed me to take care of it. I used to do all of his work. I used to write his letters, I used to take care of his banking, I used to do whatever needed to be done. And lots of people didn't know that. So I also knew when he was in and out. [Laughs] Used to take his money to the bank.

SY: So he, so you knew how much money he was making. It was fairly, he managed okay. And how many people were in his office at this time?

PM: He must've had about five interviewers.

SY: So the business kind of grew when he came back to Little Tokyo.

PM: Yeah.

SY: And he, so he was able to...

PM: Make some money, yes.

SY: Yeah. I remember he had a big party every year.

PM: Yes. He loved to entertain.

SY: And what was that for? What was the purpose of that?

PM: You mean the family or the office?

SY: No, no. Office -- wait, it was every New Year's, right? Wasn't there a big...

PM: Every New Year's we had people come to our home.

SY: Right.

PM: He invited anybody who didn't have a place to go. I remember one year we had over two hundred people, so Mom and I were so busy the night before making tempura, making all of these things, and we were, I could never go out on New Year's Eve because I always had to work to get things ready for the next day.

SY: So he, it wasn't a business...

PM: He said, "The more people that come to our house on New Year's, we will have a much better year."

SY: I see. So it was a Japanese superstition.

PM: Right. The more that come, the more money we will make.

SY: And he pretty invited anybody, everybody?

PM: Anybody that didn't have a place to go on New Year's. And he also hired entertainers, and so that was fun.

SY: And he, at the time his, was he working, was he real, he was active in that Little Tokyo community, right?

PM: Right.

SY: 'Cause he was much more of a salesman, so he was out and about.

PM: Right.

SY: And what, do you remember what kinds of things he did in the community?

PM: I don't remember too much about that 'cause I was still pretty young. 'Cause I was always working in the office. I think he was a good delegator too. [Laughs]

SY: I remember sort of famous people coming in and out of the house.

PM: That's right. At one time in Denver he was running a movie house once a week, and so he would bring in the film from somewhere, maybe it was from Hawaii, and he'd run the movie and people would come, and I know I'd be collecting money in the, where the cashier is. And we used to watch the Japanese movies.

SY: And then when he moved here, I remember him, he actually knew some Japanese celebrities.

PM: Right. Because when they came to Denver he used to try to entertain, if we had some celebrities coming into town. So there was Dan Obinata -- in fact, even Shirley Yamaguchi came to our home. We had a picture in our home by the piano. So it was, he loved to entertain and the more famous the better, I guess.

SY: [Laughs] He was, right, he was a big man, liked to be the big man. And so he, and Mom would just sort of help him in whatever. She was more the dutiful wife, kind of.

PM: Yes. For New Year's she'd just be in the background cooking and cooking and cooking.

SY: And he would be entertaining.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 21>

SY: So when he came to Little Tokyo, when you first came to Little Tokyo, how, what was it like? Was it just kind of, just First Street was the only business area?

PM: Yes.

SY: So it was just between First and Second and...

PM: Central and...

SY: San Pedro.

PM: Uh-huh.

SY: So this was in the '50s, so it was, was it thriving at the time? Did you feel like it was, there was a lot of business there?

PM: Yes, there were a lot of stores. There were grocery stores, a church, Union Church, and it was really a Japanese-town, Little Tokyo.

SY: And where did you live? Where did you end up living?

PM: I ended up living -- this is in Los Angeles?

SY: Uh-huh. When you came to Los Angeles.

PM: Well, Mom and Dad were living in Pasadena, so we lived with them for six months, and then we found a home in Altadena and we bought a home there, 'cause I had, we had two children.

SY: So it was close by. Yeah. Now, tell, what was that house in Pasadena like? 'Cause I remember it being very nice.

PM: Yeah. It had five bedrooms, eight bathrooms, and it was just a very big house. It was an old mansion, and in the back there was even a tennis court, which Baachan had dug up and planted vegetables, so it was really a hard --

SY: She dug up that tennis court?

PM: Uh-huh. Or maybe he could've had someone do that, but then she planted vegetables there after that, so she was always in the garden making vegetables.

SY: And how, how were they able to afford this house?

PM: Uncle Tari helped Mom to find the house, and I think it was only about sixteen thousand dollars. It's an old mansion and people didn't want it, and so they got a pretty good deal on it.

SY: And they, by this time he was able to own property.

PM: Uh-huh.

SY: Because before the war they --

PM: They couldn't.

SY: They couldn't. You know, there was also this, a story I remember about him having to give up his car before the war. Do you remember that at all?

PM: No, I don't.

SY: 'Cause that was very, I remember it, it was hard for him because that was the only thing he owned.

PM: I see, yes.

SY: So after the war he always had nice cars, right? [Laughs]

PM: He liked to have a Cadillac, yes. [Laughs]

SY: And he, that started, did that start in Denver or did that start in Los Angeles?

PM: I don't remember. I think in Los Angeles.

SY: And he, 'cause he always bought a new car, or he always seemed to have a new car every year, right, or every other year?

PM: I don't remember that. [Laughs]

SY: So he, yeah, so anyway, this house was very conducive to having these big parties, right? [Laughs]

PM: Yes, yes.

SY: And all the children lived there for --

PM: Right.

<End Segment 21> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 22>

SY: So when you came to L.A. and you lived there for a few --

PM: Six months.

SY: -- six months, who was there at the time, among your siblings?

PM: I think you were there, and Susie was there and Betty was there, and I don't remember Victor. Maybe he was there. He had to be there, I guess. And Keiko.

SY: So it was big enough. And so the older, your older siblings had already left?

PM: Well, Mary Jane had gotten married before me, so she was gone. Yes. And then Evelyn was still there, and so was Arlene. Yes.

SY: Right. So then, and then what about Betty? Tell us about Betty and how Betty met her husband.

PM: Well, because we were going to church together the Mikunis had only one car, so I always wanted to take Betty with me to church. So Willie is the younger brother of Fred and so he was always in the car, and that's how they met, and then they started going out together after a while.

SY: And they ended up getting married.

PM: Yes. Now happily married for over fifty years.

SY: And you were, does she ever thank you for that?

PM: No. [Laughs]

SY: You were the catalyst.

PM: They just ran out of boys. We could've used more. [Laughs] They're a very nice family.

SY: And they had, there were, were there, being from a family of all girls like that, were there a lot of guys coming in and out, like dates?

PM: Of the house?

SY: Uh-huh.

PM: I didn't see it, no.

SY: You didn't, you had just a few people you went out with.

PM: You mean before the war?

SY: Before and after the war.

PM: After the war I was married, I mean when I came back to Los Angeles.

SY: You got married fairly --

PM: I was in Denver for ten years, so during that time I got married and had two children.

SY: It was fairly soon. And so Betty didn't, she didn't date very much before she got married and married Willie?

PM: No.

SY: And then you... I guess that's true. So you were the only ones that were sort of marriage age at that time in Denver. And he, Daddy was very strict. Was he as strict with Betty as he was with you?

PM: I don't think so.

SY: He already knew the family, so that was good.

PM: Yes. [Laughs]

SY: So did she, when, everybody moved to L.A. at the same time? Did the whole family that was in Denver move except for you? Or was it...

PM: Yes, the whole family except for us.

SY: So you were the only one that stayed in Denver.

PM: But the, I think Mary Jane was already gone. She got married before me.

SY: And where did she go?

PM: She went... where did she go? Nome? I don't remember. Did they go to Conoco Park?

SY: So they might've moved -- I remember they went to East Coast for a while.

PM: That's right.

SY: I don't know when, though, they left 'cause that was before I think I knew. But so when you came to Los Angeles Betty had already moved out of the house? She was living with her husband by the time you came to Los Angeles.

PM: I think so.

<End Segment 22> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 23>

SY: So you would commute from Altadena to Little Tokyo every day, huh?

PM: I wasn't working for a few months and then -- 'cause the kids were small -- then we found babysitters and so, yes, I was commuting.

SY: And was it, what was life like in Los Angeles? You're outside of Little Tokyo when you, where you lived, your neighborhood. Was it --

PM: Yeah, when we found that house in Altadena there was a question as to whether they would sell it to us or not because it was, quote/unquote, "breaking the block." We were the only non-Caucasian to go into that neighborhood. But after we moved in there were blacks and Hispanics that had moved in.

SY: Did you have to fill out any special forms?

PM: No. they finally accepted us to move in, so we lived there, I've forgotten how long, but until the kids went to college, so that must've been at least, let's see, three, five, we were there at least ten, fifteen years.

SY: And that, that was sort of an unwritten law? Altadena city, City of Altadena kind of had that sort of unwritten?

PM: Yes, the realtors did. I don't know that Altadena is an incorporated city.

SY: I see. But they didn't want necessarily to sell to you.

PM: To a Japanese, yeah.

SY: And do you remember the realtor you worked with? Was it someone that --

PM: It was actually a Japanese American, but he was saying that he was having a hard time.

SY: Interesting. And then Betty moved very close by.

PM: Yes.

SY: She -- where, where was that?

PM: In Pasadena.

SY: In Pasadena. So she didn't have the same problems that you did?

PM: No.

SY: So then did it end up that your neighborhood became more Japanese American?

PM: We did have a few Japanese Americans down the block, but in the block we were in, no, there weren't. Around the corner there was a Japanese American family.

SY: And did you feel, you felt comfortable there?

PM: Yes, I did.

SY: You liked that neighborhood growing up.

PM: Yes, for the children it was fine, but once they started college then we had some neighborhood children vandalize our home and finally the third time they set fire to it, so we had to move out and we found a condominium in Alhambra.

SY: And that's where you're living now. So your children, then, grew up...

PM: In Altadena.

SY: In Altadena, so that was --

PM: They went to John Muir High School.

<End Segment 23> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 24>

SY: And then you all this time were developing the business.

PM: Yes.

SY: From 1950, and how, so when was it that --

PM: We started the travel bureau in 1957.

SY: '57, so it was only a few years before Daddy died, right?

PM: Right, two years.

SY: Two years. So he --

PM: He was with us two and a half years and then he died, so I just took over because we needed to, I wanted to continue it. And many people told me that it's not gonna be worthwhile for you to continue so you should stop now, but I am, being, I am the oldest and I'm stubborn, so I decided I wanted to continue it. And we didn't have much money. I sometimes had to borrow money from my mother, who didn't have much money, so the day after I borrowed it she'd be back saying, "Where's the money?" [Laughs] So it was difficult, but somehow I continued, and now we've been in business for fifty-four years.

SY: Amazing. In this, not in the same place but in Little Tokyo.

PM: Right, in Little Tokyo.

SY: Fifty-four years, wow. So can you, I mean, why was it that our dad died so young?

PM: He had heart problems.

SY: Heart problems. It was congenital in his family. So how did he finally die?

PM: He might have had a heart attack and then... he didn't really take care of himself as well as he should.

SY: I see. I see. And in the meantime his brother was also in Little Tokyo, right?

PM: Harry?

SY: Kiyo.

PM: Oh, Kiyo, yes.

SY: And what did, what was he doing?

PM: He was doing insurance agency. But also he was teaching driving lessons so those people that didn't have a chance to study, he would teach them, take them into the Motor Vehicles and help them pass their tests, and he had a business doing that too.

SY: So he was providing kind of a service as well.

PM: Right. Right.

SY: In Little Tokyo. And what about the other siblings? What were they doing?

PM: Harry, I think, moved to Utah, and George, Uncle George did as well. So Auntie Taneko, of course, stayed in Los Angeles.

SY: And what did she end up doing? She was...

PM: She was working for the government.

SY: I see. For many years. But she was also, wasn't she also taking care of...

PM: Her in-laws.

SY: Her in-laws. Her in-laws. Yeah, because, now what happened with -- so Kiyo, his younger brother Kiyo's wife passed away very young.

PM: Yes.

SY: And then she had, they had how many children?

PM: They had four. She was forty-two.

SY: So their, so who ended up taking care of their children? It was...

PM: They had a caretaker, and then Uncle Kiyo got married again.

<End Segment 24> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 25>

SY: You know, I wanted to go back a little to talk a little bit about Fred's family because you have some information about them, about... I didn't get their names exactly.

PM: It's Kokichi Mikuni and Sato Mikuni, and they were educated. Sato, his mother was a schoolteacher, so quite a difference from the Yamato side. And he also came to America and -- the father -- and went to school, so he could read English. So I felt that I was lucky 'cause I was going, I was living with them, but she had understanding because she was a schoolteacher, and therefore I always said I'm not going to yell at her because she really knew a lot and she also had understanding. So it was good for me.

SY: Because really they, you lived with them for --

PM: Yes. I lived with them when I first got married, which is what Dad said not to do, but we had no choice 'cause we didn't have enough money. And so after a while I was able to find a home that we could move them to, so they bought a home close by. They still took care of our kids once in a while. And then after a while, when we moved to Los Angeles, when we left Denver to come to Los Angeles, after a few years I called them because she was always having trouble in the high altitude of Denver and landing in the hospital once a year, so we decided it'd be better if she came to Los Angeles. So she came to live with us in Altadena. It was a quite a difference, because then it was our home that she was coming to. Before, I was going into their home, so it was different, but she was so good to our kids. She had her prejudices, though, so it was good 'cause she always said when Daddy died, "You know, if you have to do, go out or whatever, I'll be here to help you, so don't worry." And she really did, but she never let any people come to the house to visit the kids, especially if they were black. She had her prejudice that way. Then when we went to the grocery store, and in those days they sold tofu in the water and we had to lift it up, and if the meat man or whoever was doing it was a black she didn't want to buy the tofu. So it was interesting. Otherwise they were really nice people. Grandpa always took Joanne to school, and Grandma always took good care of Gary, the older one. It was really nice to have them with me. And she loved to clean house. I like to cook. So it was a good pair. [Laughs]

SY: I'll say. So I'm curious about that, because I know that there was prejudice among Japanese from Japan. You, did you notice that in others besides them? Because it was kind of common, wasn't it?

PM: I think it was, yeah. They had prejudice against Koreans as well 'cause they had some problem -- excuse me -- during the war time.

SY: I see, in Japan.

PM: Yes. So Joanne and Gary couldn't have their black friends come over, although the school they went to, were quite a few negroes, so it was a little hard for them.

SY: I see. They brought it up to you.

PM: Uh-huh. They just weren't allowed in the house, so they played with them at school or wherever they could.

SY: Interesting. So they, then what, they were basically retired when they came to Los Angeles to live with you?

PM: Yes.

SY: And what did Fred's father do when he...

PM: He used to work for a vegetable packing company in Denver.

SY: In Denver, and then when he came here he just, he just stayed with you?

PM: Right.

SY: So you were able to support them with no, with no problem?

PM: Right.

SY: By that time you were, you were solvent enough that you didn't have --

PM: Evidently, yes. [Laughs] To go way back to when we were going to get married, Fred maybe had two thousand dollars in his savings account, so I told Mom, I said, "You know, we're gonna get married, but he only has two thousand dollars." She says, "Money doesn't matter." Do you know that she said that?

SY: Really?

PM: She was very understanding.

SY: I'm shocked. [Laughs]

PM: I know, 'cause she was such a conservative --

SY: Frugal.

PM: Yeah, really. So, but for our wedding we had my friends do the catering. I mean, they made all the sandwiches because my friend's father had a grocery store, so we could buy things very reasonably. So my wedding gown, I remember very distinctly, was a very beautiful one. I paid twenty-five dollars on sale. I had to send it out for cleaning and that cost fifty dollars. [Laughs] It cost to more to have it cleaned.

SY: But you paid for it.

PM: Uh-huh.

SY: And how many people did you have at your wedding?

PM: We must've had about a hundred, our church friends.

SY: Wow.

PM: But it was fine.

SY: Yeah.

PM: We were married for fifty-three years, until he passed away.

<End Segment 25> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 26>

SY: Amazing, really, that you did, that you were able to do, do really with the family business, right? It was a family business that --

PM: Right, at the end.

SY: -- that you ran. Because both of you were working in the business. You reminded me that the people that worked for the employment agency in Little Tokyo were, one, became kind of prominent, right? He was a caterer.

PM: Right, Justin Yamaguchi.

SY: Right. And how did that happen? Did our dad have anything to do with his becoming successful?

PM: No, no. Evidently he liked cooking and taking care of people that way and he decided to do it, so he quit and went into the catering business.

SY: And the other one was the wife of a photographer.

PM: Right, Mrs. Iwata, Peggy Iwata.

SY: And her husband was Jack Iwata.

PM: Jack. Right.

SY: And do you know, I mean, did you ever talk to him about -- 'cause he took a lot of photographs of camp.

PM: Yes.

SY: I know I've seen many of his photographs, but did he ever talk about that with you?

PM: No, he didn't.

SY: He just was...

PM: Yes, and he used to also be the newsman for Densu, I think it was, or one of the companies in Japan.

SY: I see. So he was always taking pictures. He was staying very busy as a photographer.

PM: Yes.

SY: He, his office was...

PM: In Little Tokyo.

SY: Wasn't it, it was right down the, down the hallway, wasn't it?

PM: Yes, that's right.

SY: From our office. And so there were quite a few people at that time working for us.

PM: Yes. Ms. Mary Sugi and another fellow.

SY: So he, so Dad was, Daddy was still running the business at that time.

PM: Yes.

SY: And able to...

PM: When he passed away, then Mom continued it for a while, and probably she was about sixty-five when she, when Victor, our brother, said that maybe she should retire, so we closed the employment agency. Then Fred came to work for us, to do our books, 'til he got sick.

SY: So your, so really you maintained the family business for as long as, almost from the time that you started.

PM: Yes.

SY: It, was that, are you happy that you did that? Is that something that --

PM: I didn't have enough alternative.

SY: Even though you worked for others when you first came out.

PM: I worked for Opportunity School as a telephone operator, and then I worked for the government for a while, then I started working for Daddy when we came back to Los Angeles.

SY: But are you, are you pleased that that's the route you took, to maintain the family --

PM: You know, I've enjoyed, I enjoy what I do and I've enjoyed all the years even though it hasn't brought us that much money, but it's also serving people and making sure they're happy on tour, and I think that's part of the Yamato tradition, that we do that. So we're not rich, but somehow we're managing. We got the kids through college and they're okay.

SY: Yeah. So do you attribute that to our family, the fact that there's this service tradition?

PM: I think so, yes.

SY: Because you're the only person who really went into business.

PM: Correct. Nobody else wanted to and everybody else was a teacher, I think, the siblings. [Laughs]

SY: Right. And how, how did that happen? How come they didn't end up working in the office?

PM: Nobody, I don't think they enjoyed working in the office.

SY: So they never had the opportunity either. They never did it.

PM: No.

SY: It was just you. And you, so that's something that, probably because you were the closest to our father right?

PM: Right.

<End Segment 26> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 27>

SY: So when you came back to Little Tokyo and opened up the business, did you renew all the acquaintances from before the war? Was it pretty much a smooth transition from before the war to after the war, I mean, once you came back to L.A?

PM: It's not a matter of renewing because we're a big family, but just slowly I had accumulated enough names that I had been in contact with every Christmas and so that's the only way I keep in touch with them, and we did that, yes, slowly. But I had a family as well, so it kept me busy to take care of them.

SY: Did you, did you rely on your friends for business purposes? I mean, did you, did you develop business contacts?

PM: No, in that way I was very low key. I never went out selling. I just depended on referrals, and if we had satisfied clients then they would refer their friends and relatives to us, and that's how we kept going. I didn't go out like that to make sales.

SY: And what was your competition like when you first started and as you developed as a travel agency?

PM: Travel agency, that's something I never worried about because Dad always said, "Don't worry about competition. Competition is good for you. It really makes more sales." In fact, when he was doing the employment agency, if somebody wanted to start an employment agency he would go and help them and he would give them samples of our employment forms. He would tell them, "Any way we can help you, let us know." He really encouraged competition, so I never worried about that. I'm friends with all of my competitors now, and I will call them sometimes and see how they're doing. We try to work together on some promotions, but each company has its own way of doing things and sometimes it just doesn't work. But I am friendly with all of them, which is a little unusual.

SY: Right, very unusual. When you were, when you first started, did you know that you were going to be dealing with a lot of Japanese travel, or was that something that you wanted to specialize in?

PM: No. I just take care of them as they come. In fact, I have one organization that is non-Japanese. It's International Dry Cleaners Congress, it's a convention that goes on once a year, and the very first year I handled them was 1965 and I took a hundred and thirty people to Japan. And I still have that account and it's almost fifty years, so every year -- actually, the first time I had to bid for the business, and I had a help, I had a supporter and he helped me even though some very, very famous bids went in. But I got the business. And every year I had to bid again so that finally after about four years they made me the permanent travel agency for the convention, and I still have them. I've taken them around the world. I've taken them to South America, I've taken them everywhere in all this time. They're, and they're not Japanese. They're not, they're all --

SY: Caucasian.

PM: Caucasians, or they come from Italy or they come from London or they come from all over the world 'cause it's an international convention, and we do it all by email and by phone calls.

SY: So you don't, so luckily you've sort of outgrown that sort of feeling of being -- or do you still feel a little less, less than because people treat you differently. These people don't treat you any differently.

PM: It took me a long time to get rid of that feeling, however, when I started handling the Caucasian people. I even had somebody come from Boston, they said, "Gee, you're the first Japanese I've ever met, 'cause sometimes the people from Japan come into the hotels in Boston and they come in their slippers and they're so noisy." And so I knew she was prejudiced, but I overcame it after I got to meet her 'cause I said, "I'm Japanese American." So yes, there was a little bit of that prejudice in my mind that I worried about. I still do, but I try to counteract it with good service, so they're all very loyal.

SY: Now, your primary business, though, is Japan travel, right?

PM: It just turned that way.

SY: It turned --

PM: Because I speak Japanese and I can read Japanese fairly well.

SY: And how did you learn to, to...

PM: Before the war I went to Japanese school up to fourth grade, and then after the, in camp there was a Japanese class that went on for just a little while, and then after the war it's just my own education.

<End Segment 27> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 28>

SY: How, what was your own education? Just --

PM: I had people write to me in Japanese and I would always have the dictionary handy, and I would study and read, try to read more books in Japanese. So it just -- and going to Japan as well, and using the language, I became more familiar with even the slang that's so different. And there are so many words now in English that have become Japanese but just the accent is different, so I've had to learn those.

SY: Oh, so you learn those too?

PM: So McDonald's is Makudonaruto. Dodgers is Dojazu. If you say "Dodgers" they don't know what you're talking about, but if you put the right accent on it, then they understand.

SY: And you had to learn all those words.

PM: Yes. [Laughs]

SY: Was that something that our parents insisted upon, your learning Japanese? Was that --

PM: No.

SY: No? When you were young?

PM: I went to Japanese school, yes.

SY: So everybody went to Japanese school back in Boyle Heights?

PM: Yes, I think so.

SY: And so it was just something that everybody did?

PM: Right.

SY: And you weren't against it? Or you didn't --

PM: No, we just did it.

SY: You just did it.

PM: We would go after school, so we came home from school at three o'clock, then we'd proceed to Japanese school, stay 'til, stay there 'til five o'clock or six o'clock and then walk home again.

SY: Every day?

PM: Uh-huh.

SY: And during camp same thing? You would go to school, Japanese school every day?

PM: In camp, no, we didn't have Japanese school.

SY: You didn't have Japanese school.

PM: No. There was one class in Japanese, but it, we didn't have enough people so it had to close.

SY: And then when you came back to Denver, did you go learn --

PM: No, I didn't go.

SY: So all of it is pretty much self-taught, then.

PM: Right, right.

<End Segment 28> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 29>

SY: So this, the business that you do with Japan, do you notice certain, like, traditions or Japanese characteristics that are different from Japanese American?

PM: Oh yes, very different. It's very hard to understand Japan Japanese sometimes, but the downfall for me was that, first, I'm a woman trying to do business in Japan, so I had to counteract at the very start. It really was hard to break in, but I learned. I would ask for the manager of a hotel and he would come out and he would look at me with a, "What does this woman want?" [Laughs] And in those days we took, we call omiyage, presents, so we'd take a bottle of scotch or something and the next time he would be a little bit more cordial. And slowly I'd build a rapport with our suppliers in Japan so that now I know almost all the general managers of all the hotels and they've become my friends. It took time.

SY: It took time, and you just, it was just by being polite and being generous?

PM: Also, I also explained to them, with some of the people I do business with, "I'm a Japanese American, I'm a third generation," even, at that, and so I'm very frank and I will tell you what I think. I don't like you to talk behind my back. If you're going to say something just say it to my face. Because in Japan somehow it's a feeling and it's not, doesn't come right out, so they'll talk behind your back and say something, but I told them, I prefer that you say it to me, and also I prefer that you do the work correctly. I will pay what's right. I don't want it done halfheartedly and have you come later and say, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'll take you to dinner," bring me a present. I don't need those things. I want it done right to begin with. So I sometimes lay down the law when I want it to be nice for clients, so I was called a fussy old lady even though I was young. [Laughs]

SY: Really? So this started --

PM: Yeah, I found that out.

SY: -- this started when you were, when you first began the business?

PM: Maybe, yes, ten years or so into the making I found out that that's what they were calling me, 'cause one day one of the guides -- that time I had five guides altogether -- and she came up to me and she says, "Peggy-san, you're not the way they've told me." I was called urusai baasan, which means fussy old lady. [Laughs] I said, oh, and that's when I found out. But they wouldn't say that about a man who's being particular, but it's because I'm a woman in Japan. But now women are getting stronger in Japan, so we are able to stand up a little bit. But in front of my clients I'm not like that. I just want to do the best I can for my clients so that they have a good time. That's the whole purpose. They're paying a lot of money.

SY: That's really great. You're, and how, where do you think that comes from, that sort of being able to stand up to these people in Japan? I mean, is that something you feel very natural doing?

PM: Just because I know that I'm doing what's right, and I think it goes back to Dad, because he had the family spirit, but he was also strict in what he wanted done. And I'm sure it goes back to -- because I can really stand up for my rights when I have to. My clients know that as well, so, and I try, my motto at office is nothing is impossible. And they know that. So my clients also know that I will always try, and if I can't do it then it really is impossible, but I will try first. And nowadays, normally I can get most things done 'cause I've been in business so long. My staff knows that.

SY: It's interesting how you have little rules, kind of like, that you have developed over the years that you stand by.

PM: Right.

SY: These little messages that you've learned over the years.

PM: Right. One other thing is that I'm a Gemini, born in May, and the Gemini is a twin so sometimes I can give the excuse that I can be this way at home and I can be this way outside, 'cause I'm a twin.

SY: I see.

PM: So that's a good excuse. [Laughs]

SY: So your children see a different side of you.

PM: Correct.

SY: [Laughs] Although they probably see the stern side of you too, right?

PM: Yes, I'm afraid they've had their comments to me. Every time before I leave on a trip I go to each one and tell them, "You have to be very good while I'm gone," because many times when the mother is not here people will talk and say that it's because their mother is always gone. So when I came back, when I come back I'd say, well, how was it? "Mom, we missed you, but we didn't miss your lectures." [Laughs]

SY: But you, yeah, because really as they were growing up you were gone how many, how many times out of the year, would you say?

PM: I was gone, yes, maybe about five times. Quite a few of the days I was gone, escorting, yes.

SY: And that's when your in-laws would sort of...

PM: Yes. Yeah, they would live with us, so they always took care of the kids.

<End Segment 29> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 30>

SY: And your children never complained, or handled it well? They didn't...

PM: They never had me around, so whatever they did in school they did it on, themselves. Whatever they learned they really learned themselves. I've had many moments of sadness because, like Gary had invited a gal for the prom and at the last minute she backed out. She happened to be Caucasian, and so her parents took her away so that she wouldn't go out with him, so he turned around and asked the girl that he knew would go with him, but he had many problems. He came home and said, "Mom, it was so sad because I got a ticket coming home." And also during the dance they knew each other so well that they didn't talk, and also he said, "And the corsage, it just wilted." And he says, "And I even had put it in the freezer to keep it fresh." I was so sad to hear. Of course it would wilt, right? [Laughs] So things like that, I wasn't around to help them.

SY: I see.

PM: But they lived through it, but I'm beginning to hear some comments now.

SY: Are you? They're, they're getting back at you. [Laughs]

PM: Yes. [Laughs]

SY: Because, yeah, so it is interesting to me that they, well, Gary's very close in age to me.

PM: Right.

SY: So he's how old now?

PM: Sixty.

SY: Sixty. Wow, he just turned sixty. So he had gone through a little of the same little prejudice, prejudicial things when he was growing up too.

PM: Right.

SY: But not so much Joanne, your daughter? She was two years younger?

PM: Yes. No, one year.

SY: One year younger, so she, she didn't have this...

PM: She was more a very casual person, and many things didn't bother her like it did, it bothered Gary, so they were just different personalities.

SY: I see, I see. Yeah, that's, that is interesting. I never thought about the fact that you were gone so much. But being a businesswoman is very difficult, right? I mean, you were probably one of the very few when you were in business, when you were starting your business, that was female, that was a woman, right?

PM: Maybe so. I just never thought about it that way.

SY: You never thought about it.

PM: No.

SY: Because in Little Tokyo there probably weren't that many women running businesses.

PM: As far as, I didn't really check, but yes. But Joanne felt it. She learned to sew all by herself. She learned many things all by herself because I wasn't there, so we have some moments that we knew she was sad as well. But we lived through.

SY: Yeah, it is pretty amazing, Peggy, that you've been in the same business for this many years and managed to...

PM: Right.

SY: Because you're, you are still working.

PM: Yes, yes. I'm still enjoying it.

SY: And how many times do you go during the year?

PM: Well, next year I already have four tours to Japan planned, and then probably a couple of tours in between to other places. I have one cruise to Hawaii.

SY: Wow.

PM: But I enjoy it, taking care of people. It's not any fun by myself, but if I have some people I can take care of.

SY: [Laughs] That's the joy you get from it, is the taking care of them.

PM: Yes. Right, right.

SY: Really?

PM: That's the way that Dad was. He loved to take care of people.

SY: Because, but you get rewarded in them being nice back.

PM: I get rewarded because they enjoyed it, yes.

SY: Because they enjoyed it. So that's, that's the reward you feel.

PM: Yes, yes.

SY: Really? So that's the, that's an interesting way of seeing your work.

PM: You have to enjoy your work or you can't go to work.

SY: Right.

<End Segment 30> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 31>

SY: Being the youngest, I'm the youngest out of nine and you're the oldest, I'm just curious, from your perspective, what it was like growing up with such a large family and whether you thought, you think it was helpful to you in life, or if it could've been better if you were, there weren't so many of us?

PM: I really don't have any feelings about that. I always felt like we're a family, we really didn't need friends outside of our family because it was such a family that was close in age, and so I have enjoyed it. But on the other hand, you can see that all of us don't have more than two or three children, so I guess we all that feel that we have enough siblings to make it a family. In my case, my sister is married to my husband's brother, so they feel like they're double cousins. They even feel closer, and it's been really nice. I've enjoyed it.

SY: Even if it meant that you had responsibility for the younger children. I mean, when you were growing up you --

PM: I never looked at it that way. They were just all family and I enjoyed what I could. Maybe I've forgotten.

SY: And how would you characterize our family? Would you say that we're... sometimes I say things like, on the outside we're very, we appear very, very successful on the outside, but, yet there's still problems, like every family has.

PM: Right.

SY: But kind of like how you're so, you seem to be very proud of our family.

PM: Yes, yes.

SY: I mean, is that how you would characterize your, how you feel about our family? Are you very proud of --

PM: Oh sure, sure. And I'm friends with everybody, and I know there have some misunderstandings about, but I just don't bring those up and I just feel as though we should try to be friendly to each other but we'll do the best we can do.

SY: And does everybody, I mean, is that something that you feel you are, that you are the only one who's thinking that way? Do you think the rest of the siblings share your attitude about life?

PM: I haven't really talked with them about it, but I'm just proud of our family because so many families have so many splits where they don't speak to each other or where they don't get together, and I'm very proud that we still can get together and everyone seems to be doing well. And I think it's something to be proud of.

SY: So you, so all in all you're really happy that there was, that we had this big family that managed to stay together.

PM: Yes.

SY: Even though, well, it's interesting, though, that all of your sisters, the ones that you grew up with, became teachers, right?

PM: That's right.

SY: And still, and then ended up raising families.

PM: Right.

SY: So there was no, no one else like you really in the family, in terms of starting a business or maintaining a business.

PM: This only happened because of Dad. I went into the business because he wanted me to go into it, to the point where I didn't feel like having any more children because I didn't think there'd be time since I'm working for Dad in the office. So all along it was Dad's business that I went into.

SY: But even though you nurtured the business, you really grew it and kept with it, that's not something that the other siblings --

<End Segment 31> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 32>

SY: Well, I, it just strikes me as interesting that being the oldest you were the only one who went into business on, went into business and managed a business for so many years.

PM: I don't think nobody else wanted to. Are we on now?

AK: Yeah, we are.

PM: Well, Chieko never wanted to. She used to come in ranting and raving at me and telling me how I should do things, but I had to ignore it because she is the way she is.

SY: Right.

PM: But every person is his own, has his own personality.

SY: Yeah. Well, I remember working in your office when I was growing up, working for you, so all of us spent time working in the office because I think that was sort of the ethic, right? The family ethic was to work. We always had to work, right? I mean, was that something you felt?

PM: I don't remember, but yes, if you worked that was fine.

SY: [Laughs] That was fine. You didn't feel that we were kind of, there was... in other words, nothing was maybe out in the open?

PM: Right.

SY: There was always a feeling, and that, because, maybe because of the philosophy that you wake up early the first day of the month and all of that. So there was a real strong work ethic in the family. So what was it like having one brother out of nine children?

PM: Well, the brother is somebody that Baachan and Mom really were so happy, and they depended on him a lot, so they were, he was gonna carry on the Yamato name. The only thing that made me very disappointed was that Fred had worked for Dad for twenty-five years and when they decided to close the office they didn't leave it to Fred. They left it to Victor, who knew nothing about the business, but he has a good business head, so that was okay. But it was a big, big disappointment to Fred. That's about all I can say about that.

SY: But something that Fred never probably said to, to any, other than you he probably didn't tell anyone.

PM: Just to me and, that's the reason why I think he took it more out on the kids.

SY: I see.

PM: It was not easy working for his in-laws and then having his own parents living there and having his wife working. He liked to be waited on, so many times he didn't want to join my tour because he knew I wouldn't be waiting on him, I would be waiting on our clients. In fact, he did mention that. "If you want service from Mom you have to be her client." [Laughs]

SY: That was true, huh? Yeah, I remember him saying he hated going on the tours with you.

PM: [Laughs] But after a while, if it's some place he hadn't gone, he went. So now that I look at the pictures I see that went on quite a few with me. He enjoyed it once he went. He was always in the back of the bus talking to the clients, but he did enjoy it. He just felt like he wouldn't.

SY: Yeah. But, now, with all the traveling you've done, do you still enjoy the just traveling for traveling's sake?

PM: I enjoy it if I have people to take on tour. So most of the time, I've been all over the world, but I don't know too much about the locations. I've seen them, but I'm mostly concentrated on my clients' faces, to see if they are enjoying. So I lose any, if I'm hurting in any way it all disappears when I have my clients. I enjoy my work.

SY: I'll say. You focus on your work. So the, and as far as the family goes, do you still focus on that part of your life more now than you did when you were working, devoting more time to your --

PM: Unfortunately my family -- you mean my children?

SY: Uh-huh.

PM: They all have lives of their own, so we don't get together that often. But yes, I keep in touch with them and do what I can, but they are busy with their own families. It's very difficult. So we try to at least at New Year's get together, once a year, and I try to do all the cooking. And last year I wasn't even here, but Joanne did all the cooking. She knows exactly what I do and she did it all. I was very surprised.

<End Segment 32> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 33>

SY: Can you describe a little of the cooking that you do, do traditionally for New Year's?

PM: Oh, it takes about three days, but we, the biggest thing is the nishime, the vegetable dish. Takes about two hours to make it 'cause I do all the vegetables separately, and we make all the other salads, like kyuri sunomono, we do gobo kinpira, we do green beans. We also have fish dishes. We have, I think there's about thirteen things that I do.

SY: And it takes you three days?

PM: Well, to buy it and then to prepare them and then to cook it.

SY: And it's just you and your daughter, Joanne?

PM: Yes, but last year she did it by herself. She knows what I do. She's been helping me all these years. I called from Japan and, "Joanne, how many of the dishes are you going to make?" 'Cause she had first said, "I'm not gonna do everything," but then when I called her she says, "I'm doing it all, Mom." So I was very proud of her, and she did a good job.

SY: That's great.

PM: Very good.

SY: Yeah, amazing, really.

PM: She had made a cookbook called Mom's New Year Dishes, New Year's Dishes, and so she knows all the recipes. And she's helped me all along.

SY: So she clearly enjoys it too.

PM: I hope so. [Laughs] We buy sashimi, about five pounds, and that I did cut after I came back, but I enjoy it. We even had barbecue beef, and it's really not a New Year dish, but Gary says, "Mom, that's tradition for us," since I had started making it.

SY: So you taught your children these Japanese traditions that you try to maintain. Did you do that consciously, or was it just that's what you do?

PM: That's what we do, and even the grandkids like Japanese dishes, so whenever they came over I always had Japanese dishes. So they enjoyed it, teriyaki fish, niku dofu, sunomono.

SY: And that's very much who you are. I mean, you really do sort of... is it, do you think it's from being in Little Tokyo for so many years that you maintain all these?

PM: No. No, just because I like to do it. Little Tokyo doesn't have anything to do with it.

SY: And your friends now, are they mainly old friends, old Japanese American friends? Or you have a lot of friends in Japan too, right?

PM: Yes.

SY: But the people that you feel closest to, are they Japanese Americans?

PM: I don't really classify them, but I just have a lot of friends, all over the world. [Laughs]

SY: So it's very, very, it's not...

PM: My Christmas card list is four hundred, so it keeps me busy Christmastime, but it's so fun to keep in touch with them.

SY: Wow. And that's business and personal friends?

PM: That's true, but a lot of the business people have become my personal friends. Like Daddy used to do.

SY: Same thing?

PM: He made them his personal friends from business.

SY: Yeah. I know, that's, it's interesting to me that you have, you keep, it's kind of like he, what made such an impression on you and that you recognize that as part of who you are.

PM: Right.

SY: And how you characterize him as being so important to your life, do you feel the same way about Mom? Or how, how do you feel about that relationship so much and what kind of influence she had on your life?

PM: Mom was really a nice person, and she loved coming over to our homes when Victor set it up so that she spent weekends with us, and that was just really nice.

SY: When she was sick.

PM: Right, right. And I enjoyed that and she enjoyed it too, so it was good that Victor set that up.

SY: But she was not nearly the influent, the influential person that Dad was.

PM: Right. Sometimes she could be a little bit, in her, in her remarks it might not be as nice as what you wanted to hear, but it's still Mom, so... [Laughs]

SY: Right. And they had a rather tempestuous relationship in terms of his being, his anger was directed more at her than at anybody else.

PM: Yes. It was really very sad to see, yes.

SY: For her. But she was still strong, right?

PM: Right.

SY: Because she ran the business even after he passed away.

PM: Right.

SY: And what was that like, because you were kind of working alongside her?

PM: It wasn't easy, but it's okay. I put up with it. Because she knew that it was still Yamato Travel Bureau, so she would come over and say, "Well, why are you doing that? You should do it this way." But I just had to ignore her because I was trying to run the business. So after a while she quit saying those things, but during the first few days, first months or first year, yeah.

SY: And did our, did Uncle Kiyo have a role in helping you?

PM: When Dad died he was so well-known in the community I asked him if he'd like to at least have his name in there and he said yes, so without any money I just put his name in there. He wasn't an investment, he wasn't invested in the company. But after a while it didn't work out, so I just...

SY: Took his name off. So he really didn't have an active role in...

PM: No.

SY: But he managed still to --

PM: But he was referring people to us because he's so well-known in the community.

SY: I see. I see. And he, yeah.

PM: So in way it helped us start out. Bruce Kaji is one of those. [Laughs]

SY: He referred Bruce Kaji to Yamato Travel? Wow. Yeah, 'cause most of your clients, you have a lot of prominent clients, right, in the Japanese community?

PM: Yes.

SY: Yeah, so that's, that's --

PM: They're all from referrals.

SY: But you maintain a low profile. [Laughs] You don't go out and advertise too much, right?

PM: No, I don't.

<End Segment 33> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 34>

SY: But, yeah, no I think we're, I think we've covered a lot here and I'm really, I've learned a lot, so I hope, and I hope you've enjoyed sharing, sharing this story.

PM: Oh yes. I can't say everything that has transpired in my eighty-two years, but... [Laughs]

SY: But you've said a lot.

PM: Yes, I've lived a good life, and I intend to live as long as I can. Gary keeps saying, "Mom, when are you going to retire?" Or, "When is your last tour?" And I said, "Oh, I'm going out again -- " "No, no, no. When is your last tour?" And I says, for as long as people want to go with me and as long as I can walk I'd like to keep doing it, because it's good for your head, good, so you won't get dementia or Alzheimer's.

SY: Right, right.

PM: So I would like to continue as long as I can. Thank you.

SY: Well you don't show any signs. [Laughs]

PM: Thank you very much.

AK: Is there anything else you want to add?

PM: No, I think we're...

SY: Something that we didn't cover? Yeah, I mean, I do want to say that we didn't talk about camp as much because it's, so much of that you don't remember.

PM: It's not that I don't remember, but it's because I didn't have any bad things to say about it. We just enjoyed camp, going to school and -- but I just take things in stride, anyway. And we had our religious meetings.

SY: So it wasn't particularly negative?

PM: No.

SY: In, even in small ways like the bathrooms and the showers? There were little things that bothered you?

PM: They might have, but I've forgotten if so.

SY: Yeah, that's so interesting. I think it's very, it's not unusual, but, but at least you have memory of the good parts.

PM: Yes.

SY: So do you think that it was something that you wish hadn't happened to the Japanese Americans?

PM: Well, one thing, I think it really dispersed the Japanese all over the country, so that might've been good, but it really was very unsettling for all of the older people. It was a real tragedy, I think.

SY: So mostly for the older people, but for the, for yourself it...

PM: I didn't mind.

SY: You didn't mind.

PM: It's just another phase of life.

SY: Okay. Well, that's very valid. Thank you very much.

PM: Thank you very much.

<End Segment 34> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.