<Begin Segment 20>

SY: I think you have a very psychological approach to things. You think deeply about things and does that just come naturally you think or something you're interested in?

PS: I guess partly because of my counseling background. You have to take a certain number of courses where you start reading the books that have to do with these kinds of things and so yeah, that's part of it. And I think it's my religious background too, I'm reading books that are rather radical. They have to do with more of a radical interpretation of Christianity that, a more liberal view that I feel comfortable with.

SY: Radical in what sense? Is it because, I mean, they all have Christ.

PS: Interpretation of the Bible, you don't take things literally. Some of the things that you go to church, virgin birth, that was a myth, even the crucifixion of Jesus was very brutal kind of thing and to say that God condoned that, God is a brute that would kill somebody like that for the sake of satisfying his need for people, would be able to lay their sins on what Jesus did. I mean, it just doesn't make sense. And it's critical, it's an essential point of Christianity. But then if you... I've had time to look at some of the things with historical Jesus people say, that if you look at the record, if you look at the conditions under which the Bible was written, it was written by Jews. These Jews met every week, what did they have to go by? They went by the Old Testament, what did the Old Testament tell them? It had stories about things like scapegoat. You know you heard the tape, you know that term came from a Jewish custom, every year they took a goat, an innocent goat, they let the goat go and escape into the wilderness and that goat was your scapegoat. That you laid all your sins on that goat, okay, and in the same sense of Abraham killing his son Isaac. Why would he kill his son Isaac? It's a sacrifice, but that kind of violent God doesn't make sense to me. God is a loving god. How can you tie those two together? But you see, that's the way the Jews wrote the scriptures. They were clever people, brilliant people to come up this these tie-ins, to tie things together which really made sense until you look back on it and realize. The whole idea of the communion, that you take wine or grape juice that's supposed to represent the blood of Jesus, it doesn't make sense because Jews have a real taboo about blood. Blood is not kosher. It's not likely that they would latch onto something like that that would involve blood so directly. So, I mean, to admit that I have these doubts I think in a way is kind of... I have mixed feeling about that because I wouldn't want to have other people's faith disturbed by what I say but I have to be honest. And I have to be true to myself and true to what I believe, what I've come to believe.

SY: So the church for you or for the community as a whole, what direction do you think it's going in? I mean, is it becoming more liberal or will there always be these different points of view in the church?

PS: Well, I've come to see... I've been working with a minister who has made gains in changing his views on LGBT issues, and I want him to take more of a stand. Harold and I went to speak with him about having a program where we would have people on the panel presenting... telling their stories. He didn't want any part of it. He says people in his church, some people are very anti-gay. There's one guy who went through a program to convert him from being gay into being straight, it's called the Exodus program. So this guy's coming to him for help, so how is he supposed to deal with people like that? So I can understand and unfortunately it makes the church an organization that doesn't make stands of conscience. Rather it just goes along with the whims of society or the forces of society. He says, "Well, the people who are opposed to Proposition 8 are young people so it's just a matter of time before it'll change." Well, I said, "Yeah, that's fine, but what does the church... how doesn't the church take a stand of conscience in all this?" He says, "We can't, there are too many people out there that we have to please." So it doesn't say much for our church if the church just goes along with what society does. He says, well when society changes then we'll make the change.

SY: It is like you were saying that the church didn't take stand on redress either.

PS: No, that's true for Buddhists and Christians.

SY: So that's... the role of the church may be different.

PS: The church was complicit in going along with the government. The government, well, the JACL leadership says we should cooperate to prove our loyalty and all, and the church went along with that. So they didn't... and so even after the war was over and it came time to press for redress, liberal or conservative didn't make any difference, the church stayed out of it. And I think it's largely true because they knew they were going to get opposition from certain factions no matter which side they took.

SY: So how do you sort of fit in there? Because you're active in organizations that clearly aren't willing to take stands. You just feel that as an individual it's important for you to take a stand and you're fine with operating within this organization?

PS: Yeah, I understand, I understand. So the little movement that we can make on the part of clergy we want to reinforce. There's an Asian gay and lesbian organization that's honoring this minister I was telling you about because he's come a long ways in being more supportive and so that's good. We can relish the little gains that we make.

SY: So do you see the church changing at all? I mean, do you see it the movement as people get younger, I mean, is that something that you see in the future for the church?

PS: Yeah, I think the church changes with the times. It doesn't necessarily promote change but it goes along with whatever changes there are I think. I think the exception might be the black church during the Civil Rights Movement. I can't imagine the pulpit being silent in the black churches when it came to supporting Martin Luther King and what was going on in the south.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright © 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.