Densho Digital Archive - Jack Y. Kunitomi Interview I

Densho Digital Archive
Densho Visual History Collection
Title: Jack Y. Kunitomi Interview I
Narrator: Jack Y. Kunitomi
Interviewer: Martha Nakagawa
Location: Los Angeles, California
Date: July 19, 2011
Densho ID: denshovh-kyoshisuke-03-

<Begin Segment 1>

MN: Today is Wednesday, July 20, 2011. We are at the Japanese American Cultural and Community Center in Los Angeles. We will be interviewing Yoshisuke Jack Kunitomi. Tani Ikeda is on the video camera, and I will be interviewing, my name is Martha Nakagawa. And Jack, I wanted to start with your father's name. What was his name?

JK: Gonhichi. And you know, he tried to change his name because, according to the characters, something about "luck," "changing luck." And I don't know, so he finally changed to Gonji. I don't know why, but that's one story.

MN: But Gonhichi is "seven," right? Wouldn't seven be a lucky number?

JK: Well, I guess, yeah. Not in Japan, I don't think.

MN: What about your mother's name?

JK: Well, all we knew was she was Komika.

MN: Now, wasn't her maiden name Kunitomi also?

JK: That's what I understand. I don't know if they were related or what.

MN: Okay. Now, what prefecture were your parents from?

JK: They were from Okayama, and it was a very small town, just one short station away from Okayama city.

MN: Now, when your father first came overseas, where did he land?

JK: Well, he was with a gang of young men working in Hawaii. So I guess after the season's work in Hawaii, they had nothing to do but explore America, I guess.

MN: So from Hawaii he came to Los Angeles?

JK: Yes.

MN: Did he go through the Port of L.A. or San Francisco or Seattle?

JK: I think they came through (San Francisco).

MN: And then a few years after this, your mother came over and joined your father?

JK: She came as a war bride.

MN: War bride or picture bride?

JK: I'm sorry, as a, well, photographer's...

MN: Shashin miai. Picture bride.

[Interruption]

MN: So, Jack, do you know if your mother came through San Francisco, Angel Island?

JK: Yes. We have a picture of her as a bride, picture bride. And I don't know how they ever got together.

MN: I'm gonna go down the list of your brothers and sisters, and you tell me if I'm correct, okay? First born is Koichi.

JK: Koichi.

MN: Also known as Frank or Koya. Then Chiyoko, then you, Yoshisuke, then Kinya, also known as Kimbo, then Hideo, he also went by Alan. Sueko, Sue, Midori, and Tetsuo. Did I get everybody?

JK: Right.

<Begin Segment 2>

MN: Now, when were you born?

JK: I was born October 10, 1915, on 155 North Central Avenue.

MN: And what is at this location today?

JK: Today it's part of the parking lot, city parking lot, which is inside of all the retail stores on First, Central, San Pedro, and Second. I'm sorry, Jackson is not there anymore.

MN: But Jackson used to run across Central before the war, right?

JK: Yes.

MN: Now, everybody calls you Jack, but your birth name is Yoshisuke. How did you get the name Jack?

JK: Well, it's rather a long story. I loved to read, so using my library card for the main library at Fifth and Main Street, upstairs, Foreman and Clark haberdashery. Before, we used to get ten books to bring home for the week. And it turned out to be not enough. I would read on the front porch, and I would see this World War vet, number one, passing by every day. And it would always have magazines, fiction magazine, of jungle stories, sea stories, pirate stories, anything adventurous. And he would give me what he had finished. So one day he says, "Hey, what's your name?" So I tried to carefully announce my name, and he stood there openmouthed, wondering what I was coming up with. So he says, "You know, you're in America now, and most people won't understand your name or whatever. So I'm just going to call you Jack." I said, "Well, that's fine with me. Who cares?" So we just took that name and adopted it.

MN: How old were you when you met this World War I vet?

JK: Oh, yeah, we had library cards very early, so I don't know. Probably ten. Anyway, I was old enough to walk from my house to Fifth and Main Street. No cars, traffic, no problem, walk up to second floor.

MN: So did all the teachers in school and your friends start calling you Jack from then on?

JK: Yes. I just told them I had a new name. So of course my family was wondering what came over me. It took hold.

MN: So your mother also called you Jack?

JK: She had to because everyone else did. I had a harder time explaining to my high school friends because they couldn't see the logic of changing names. Said, "You have to go to city hall and do it right," which I never did.

MN: Jack, what is the first language that you learned? Is it English or Japanese?

JK: Well, I guess it has to be Japanese because without my brother and sister, I couldn't talk English. Yeah, I guess... mostly Japanese.

MN: And you communicated with your parents in Japanese.

JK: Yes. It was touch and go. I forget that I'm supposed to talk Japanese to them. But lucky thing we were going to Japanese school. They paid for the tuition and we did attend like we should have.

MN: Which Japanese school did you attend?

JK: It was called Rafu Daiichi Gakuen. It was the largest of the branches in the neighborhood.

MN: Did you go every day or did you just go Saturday?

JK: We were supposed to be going every day. Of course, our attendance in that school wasn't perfect.

MN: So were you sneaking out of class and playing football?

JK: Yeah. Well, we didn't attend because football or whatever sports which was in season took precedence over our needs.

MN: So all the boys were playing sports, and your parents were paying tuition, but you were out playing sports?

JK: Yes.

MN: What was unique about the Daiichi Gakuen, they had a yard, and what did you do at the yard?

JK: Well, we combined all the sports programs that our team outside the school, we played whatever was in season. And one thing that I was grateful for was because we played intramural -- is that the right word? -- for games with most of the Japanese schools that had programs, sports programs. And what made it work well was because we travelled, like to Venice, Norwalk, Long Beach. We made friends and teammates, and enemies, sports enemies, and we got to see the world.

MN: You know, you mentioned "sports enemies." Did you guys get into a lot of fights?

JK: Of course. [Laughs] Of course there were many disagreements with the umpires, with the other teams, and yes, we had trouble defining the rules. Sometimes the rules got too, well... we had a nice example of playing San Fernando in San Fernando. And I hit a so-called foul ball which hit the tree that was supposed to be the marker for the fair ball. And we argued and argued for hours. But it was finally settled, I had a two-base hit.

<Begin Segment 3>

MN: Jack, before we talk more about the school and your sports activities, I want to ask you a little bit about Little Tokyo. And you were sharing to me about Yamato Hall. Can you tell me, number one, what was Yamato Hall?

JK: Yamato Hall was a gambler's delight. It used one stair, which led to their door. Of course, only adults, probably bachelors, only were allowed into the open door. It was so-called "closed" because according to rumors, a little store across the street, half a block from the entrance to the gambling house, was a lookout for our, the hall. And I guess it was the lookout because nobody ever raided the place. But one night, something happened, and all heck broke loose because the U.S. government, revenue, raided the hall. They had the streets blocked off and they woke me and my brother up from a deep sleep -- I don't know what time it was, probably two or three o'clock in the morning. By dumping cases, bottles, jugs, whatever, that they confiscated, and threw them over the wall from the mezzanine. And it was all noise, smell of liquor that permeated the streets. It was just plain old noise, noisy. I don't know how long it took the liquor to dry up or go down the sewer, but the smell lingered on for days.

MN: You said you and your brother heard this. How close were you to this event?

JK: We were across the street from the entrance to Yamato Hall. (Our house was across the street from Yamato Hall.)

MN: And so they were confiscating this because Prohibition had just...

JK: Prohibition, yes.

MN: And this was a federal agents...

JK: Yes. I don't know what department.

MN: Did they barricade the street off?

JK: They had barricades on Central and San Pedro. Of course, there are sightseers, but they couldn't do anything to stop the raid.

MN: So the raid, was it just one night that they came and --

JK: Yes, just one night.

MN: Now, Yamato Hall, let's see. You're talking about, the gambling joint was... was that called the Tokyo Club? If you could explain that.

JK: Well, the Tokyo Club was what they call the door. Of course, I never made it inside. My father took me when I was much smaller, younger, and I don't remember. Bunch of men gambling away. So I don't remember too much about the interior. But it was a lifesaver for the bachelors who did farm work, seasonal work, and they provided work for my father by moving their suitcases and a few of their clothes that they took with them when they went to seasonal work.

MN: So he got hired by people at Yamato Hall. And then didn't Nisei Week programs, weren't there fashion shows at Yamato Hall?

JK: Well, this came much later. Because before Nisei Week, they had to have, like, fashion shows, women had their clothes, the men had their sweaters, trousers.

MN: Did you model?

JK: Yes, we modeled sweaters. And all part of the growing up sequence that we went through with the ladies taking the lead.

MN: What was that like, modeling at the fashion show?

JK: Well, we followed the ladies, because lot of ladies wanted the fashion show. So we tried to carry on. [Laughs] It was funny because the men were trying to imitate the ladies. But we carried on. And, well, yeah, it came out all right.

<Begin Segment 4>

MN: I want to ask you to go back a little further now. You saw a lot of buildings in Little Tokyo being built, and you were joking around about how you helped build the old Union Church, what did you boys do when they were building the old Union Church?

JK: Well, in those days, construction workers left everything the way they quit. So there's no fence, it wasn't closed up like modern construction. So we were free to take the lumber, find some nails, straighten them out to make furniture, things like that. And I guess the workers didn't mind losing a few yards of lumber. But we had no trouble with the workers because everything was wide open. Union Church was built 1923 or '4, and because they started with an excavation of a gym, we had a field day because they were digging deeper into the ground. Yeah, we knew that we were going to have a gym, and then a kitchen alongside the gym. And because we had no sense of safety, we were digging in the dirt just like the men were, except we're digging with our hands and feet. Well, we didn't cause any cave-ins, and so we survived one of our first construction programs.

MN: And you never got in trouble?

JK: No. I guess they didn't do major damage.

MN: But you almost dug the whole tunnel all the way to San Pedro Street, right?

JK: Yeah, almost. We were digging from the back of that gym all the way almost to San Pedro Street.

MN: That's a long tunnel.

JK: Yes, it's long.

MN: You could have had a cave-in.

JK: Yeah, we could have had a cave-in easily. But I guess the dirt was untouched. We were lucky.

MN: And then after that you saw the San Pedro Firm Building go up.

JK: (San Pedro) Firm Building came next.

MN: And my understanding is that the flower growers financed that building.

JK: Oh, uh-huh.

MN: And then after that you saw the, is it Nishi Hongwanji getting built?

JK: Yes. Nishi built. Before, it was built closer to the river, bridge crossing the L.A. River. Then they moved to First and Central to build the new temple.

MN: Now, you mentioned the river, and you were describing to me the river. Today, we only know the river as all concrete. What was the river like when you were growing up?

JK: Well, it was a wide open river, winding, and because the river was flat around the First Street Bridge, it was many, many curves. Because it was a flat part of the river, I guess, and we didn't mind that because now we could sort of dam up the curves to make shallow diving areas. And because we had diving areas, we could practice our racing dives, what we used to call racing dives. But we had trouble because we had a gang on the east side, living on the east side of the river, who laid claim to the river on that side. So they had slings, the old fashioned slings, the biblical slings. But our older brothers had a slingshot and then later on, they had a BB gun called Benjamin BB gun, whose range was so much greater than a slingshot, that we easily took over the river, ownership of the river. So we had no trouble with that.

MN: Did anyone get injured in these fights?

JK: Oh, yes. We were hit many times by the slings.

MN: 'Cause you could lose an eye with a slingshot. But nobody got a serious injury.

JK: No major damage.

MN: Now these people, the kids you were fighting over the territory of the river, were they Japanese Americans from the east side?

JK: No. They were mostly Caucasian, because they were Russians who immigrated from their families to China, Japan, and finally America. And so we met them at Lincoln High School because Lincoln had a pretty good sized entry of Russians.

MN: So when you met these -- you know, after you boys grew up and you went to high school and you met them, was there still a rivalry, or was there peace?

JK: You're all friends now, because we're playing on the same football team, same basketball, same baseball teams. So forgot there was a rivalry at the river. But then the Russians disappeared. I guess they got assimilated into the high school, Roosevelt High School was open then.

MN: Because when you were growing up, Belmont High was not built yet, and you said Roosevelt was not built yet.

JK: They were just starting to build.

<Begin Segment 5>

MN: You were sharing another story with me about, there was a railroad track behind the old union church? And what did the railroads bring in?

JK: Oh, yes. The Times was in a different building that time. But they needed newsprint, so where else made newsprint? Canada. So the Times always had a railroad car full of newsprint, and newsprint would be behind Union Church. So we had a field day after it rained, and went to that... the trucks would come in full of mud, they would load the newsprint on the trucks and try to get out. Well, the mud would prevent the trucks from moving out of the mud, and we would just sit there and laugh at the truck drivers because they had a problem. But it was all in fun. But thanks to the L.A. Times, we learned our English and all.

MN: The bad English. Were the truck drivers pretty angry at you boys?

JK: Well, they were angry because we were laughing at them, but the Times always that that newspaper picked up behind the church. And what was good about that railroad was because it didn't come during the day. It came after midnight because we never heard the train because we were asleep. So we had our pennies, we had dimes flattened out, there's pennies on the tracks, next door we have lots of flat pennies. And because the trains came at night, and sometimes they took the empties away, we had a yard to play on. Hide and Seek, Kick the Can, and baseball and things like that. So we had our gang, hiding.

MN: You skated a lot too, right, when you were a kid?

JK: Yes. The stores, we had a warehouse, stores on First and Central, First and Alameda, and mail order skates, roller skates. Waited a few days for regular skate, and we would roll around the block, racing. And what made roller skates fun was because after the roller skates handle wore out, we opened the skates, nailed them to two by fours, and made coasters, scooters. Now we had scooters like the modern scooters, and we prided ourselves that we started the skateboard.

MN: Very innovative.

JK: Yes. And it was noisy, so the shopowners on first and San Pedro, they hated us to come because it's so noisy.

MN: Now, you were living at 155 North Central, and then your family moved in 1927 closer to where Fukui Mortuary is now, right?

JK: Yes.

MN: So, did your family become very close with the Fukui family?

JK: Well, the kids, Shoichi's grandfather, was the one that started. He was a vet of World War I, AAF. And he was from Hawaii, and I guess he started that. And Shoichi's family grew up with my sisters. They were unafraid of the corpse kept in the building. So my sisters were friends of Shoichi's sister and made themselves at home.

MN: Did you boys go in there and fool around?

JK: Yeah, we did. We saw dead bodies.

MN: Weren't you scared?

JK: Well, we were, the boys were kind of afraid, yeah. We're listening to all the stories about dead body, that soul going up to heaven.

MN: You boys snuck into Nishi Hongwanji, too.

JK: Yeah, because those days, they used to keep the bodies in the church. You used to see the body through the open windows. So the open... well, I guess we weren't cowards after all. We looked at the bodies.

<Begin Segment 6>

MN: I want to ask you about your father now. What did he do for a living?

JK: Well, he was a truck driver, and he moved people's houses from one place to another. I know that in the early years, the people from Boyle Heights would find a house in the west side, Tenth Street, Thirty-sixth Street, by the M.E. church. And they built another community on Normandie and Jefferson. It became another community with all the trimmings.

MN: So your father helped move a lot of the furniture.

JK: Oh, yes. They went into partnership with two others, and the one thing I remember, this one partner was a chubby... he was one of the local sumotoris, and he was sort of a semi-pro for the big boys that toured America. So we had, oh, I don't know, like a [inaudible] for sumotoris, and, well, they came over later. The big old fat ones came over later.

MN: Now, did your father do a lot of overnight trips on his business?

JK: It was mostly daily, because those days, every ken, prefecture, had a picnic in the summertime. I would call them drunken brawls. All the ken, oh, my god. "Oh, you belong to this ken." "Oh, you belong to this ken." Because my father was moving soda pop, fruits, stage props, stage curtains, all the things that went into presenting shows, amateur shows, and we traveled with them. White Point, oh, that was a place. Orange County, El Monte, yes. They had picnics all over the county.

MN: How old were you when you started to help your father?

JK: Oh, wow. Because there's food involved, and picnics, fruits, and soda pop. That was our favorite, to help move it.

MN: Were you pretty young?

JK: Yeah, I guess.

MN: Grammar school? JK: Yeah, probably... fourth grade. Fourth grade was ten, eleven?

MN: So you did a lot of the loading and unloading of food?

JK: Oh, yes, helping.

MN: Was summer the busiest time with the kenjinkai picnics?

JK: Oh, yes. Every kenjinkai has a picnic. And then besides that, the Dry Cleaners Association, who else? Anybody that had an excuse, that had a picnic. Summertime, the picnics, oh, my god. We went here, there, everywhere. We started in Elysian park.

MN: Tell me about White Point. You mentioned White Point.

JK: Oh, White Point was... I guess it was a hot spring. And they had a lot of cabins. The cabins were in one building, outdoor swimming pool right in the rocks, hot spring bath, and too bad it didn't last. Probably lasted, oh, I guess about five years before a storm really broke it up. The outdoor swimming pool was broken up, so no more swimming pool outdoors. They had pool, they had massages, they had everything for aching bodies.

MN: You were just a kid, though. What did you do at White Point? Did you go swimming out there?

JK: Yeah, we went swimming.

MN: Did you go look for abalone, octopus?

JK: Yeah. Then abalone, and the little shell.

MN: Tsubu?

JK: Tsubu. Haven't heard that word for a long time. Tsubu, stick a needle in, eat them.

MN: You ate 'em at the beach?

JK: Yeah.

MN: Did you just do shoyu?

JK: Yeah. Yes, those were the days. Because White Point not only had, well, rooms where people were healthy, but picnics and games and prizes. Too bad it didn't last as long as...

MN: Now, let me ask you a little bit about your mother. She had eight children. Did she have any time to do any outside work?

JK: No. She... well, after the kids grew up, and Koyasan moved from Central Avenue to First Street, there were men and women who were taking care of the church. And the church got bigger, larger. So my mother had nothing to do except cook for the ministers. So she started cooking for the ministers. So she became a church at the...

MN: And your family is associated with Koyasan.

JK: My folks were.

MN: You know, in 2008, the Los Angeles City Council voted to give historic status to the tree that was planted in the old Koyasan spot. You saw that tree planted, didn't you?

JK: I was there when they brought the plant. It was yea high. It was just bigger than my full height, I guess. And it just kept on growing.

MN: How did you feel about the fact that the city council recognized this tree?

JK: Well, I got my picture in the papers. [Laughs] I think it was a highlight of the spot.

MN: You mentioned your mother became a cook at Koyasan. What did she cook at home?

JK: By that time, I was mostly on my own.

MN: But growing up, what kind of food did you eat at home?

JK: Well, she brought some things home from work.

MN: Was it Japanese food or American food?

JK: Yeah, Japanese food.

MN: Now, Jack, you were growing up during the Great Depression. How did... did it affect your family at all?

JK: All I remember is when we were, after we had moved to the neighborhood near Fukui, that was 1929, '28. And a lady from down the street had a nursery. She was taking care of many children who were children of men and women who were working in Little Tokyo. And then the mother came up to my friend asking for twenty-five cents loan. And I just happened to hear something, so I was curious. Yes, she was asking for twenty-five cents loan to buy some milk for her children. I said, oh, my gosh. Well, of course, to me... but that was about it, hardship cases. But I think we did pretty well through the hardship, because we shared.

<Begin Segment 7>

MN: Jack, I want to ask you about your schooling now. Where did you go to grammar school?

JK: Our grammar school was right behind the Daiichi Gakuen. It's called Amelia Street School. There was a street named Amelia that's not there anymore. But it was... at that time, when I was in kindergarten, all Caucasian teachers. And what made the school so unique for the Japanese population was because we had a bath to wash up. You figure Japanese people take bath nightly, I think. Having a bath to service you at the school was unbelievable. We had a bath, we had woodwork for the ladies, what we called sloyd, S-L-O-Y-D, sloyd woodwork. We had basket making, home cooking, shoe repair. It was a strange program that I surely had.

MN: Now, but the basket weaving, those are for the older kids, right?

JK: Well, I think, yeah, we started about fourth grade.

MN: Tell me more about this bath. Where'd you take the bath at?

JK: Well, it was in the building, several building with a bath room, and we had a custodian in charge. "All right, you're gonna take a bath." Dressing room. So we had a bath at home, so we didn't... people that had, probably stayed in hotels, probably it was too crowded so they probably took a bath. So it worked out. Well, yardwork, playing in the yard was, a small yard. But imagine all the Japanese spoken only in elementary. I can't imagine that except for the people that had older brothers and sisters. But we were lucky. I had older brother and sisters, so my English was okay.

MN: So Amelia Street School was mostly Japanese American kids?

JK: (In the 1930s, mostly Nisei.) Well, we chased out the Spanish, Indians, because our community became all Japanese. And I don't know where the Mexican population disappeared to. There were mostly Spaniards from the early Spanish families. And Indians, few, the Indians were disappearing quicker than the Spanish.

MN: You're talking about Native Americans?

JK: Yes.

MN: Do you know where they went?

JK: [Shakes head]

MN: So Amelia Street School, from what grade to what grade was Amelia Street School?

JK: (K-8.) We had kindergarten, unlike now. So kindergarten, and so Japanese people had a break, older brother and sister and friends speaking English. So, you know, I had a fourth grade teacher, Miss Mauch, M-A-U-C-H, who took an interest in our welfare, our weekend. "I'll get your permission slip signed, all right? We're going to Eagle Rock." "Eagle Rock, where's that?" Up there in the mountains. So we went to Eagle Rock. Eagle Rock, behind the eagle, there's a cave. We had a cave there to have our lunch, and cave walking, hiking, short hike up. And so we had fun on weekends. And Miss Mauch, thank her. So she took us to Sycamore Grove. Where's that? Where the sycamore trees grow. And oh, she and Ms. Raymond, can't forget.

MN: How often did Miss Mauch take you? Once a month on these trips?

JK: Oh, yeah, depending on the teachers. If they can get permission to.

MN: Like how did you get to Eagle Rock or to Sycamore...

JK: Streetcar.

MN: Oh, streetcar went all the way up to Eagle Rock?

JK: Yes. The Five Car went to Eagle Rock, from north Broadway, took off at Elysian Park, around Eagle Rock, went that way. So I get my directions mixed. But yes, Eagle Rock and south pass. So we went. I remember you had to pay a nickel for the streetcar, and some people said, "Oh, he forgot to put the nickel in." [Laughs] So we'd get the nickel.

MN: Can you share with us about the penny lunch at Amelia Street School?

JK: Oh, yes. We have what we call a penny lunch. People ate at the school, and so upper graders from fourth up, did the kitchen work. So we did, pour the milk for the milk drinkers, serve the dessert, what else have we... cut the, well, they were unsliced bread so we had to cut the bread. So we had to help. And we had a pretty good menu. Soup plus entree. [Laughs] One of my friends from Japan, he came over not too long before school started. He didn't like milk, so he would pay somebody a nickel if they drank the milk. Because it was mandatory that you drink or finish up what you started to eat. So we got away cheaply, five cents.

MN: Who drank the milk for five cents?

JK: One of his friends.

MN: So if you didn't finish your meal, you could not work the lunch line.

JK: Yeah.

MN: How did you get chosen to work the lunch line?

JK: Well, it was mandatory.

MN: So all the students did it?

JK: Yeah, all the students from fifth grade or fourth grade did it.

MN: So you went to Amelia Street School, and then after that you went to Daiichi Gakuen, which was right next door, is that right? And then Koyasan, you went to Koyasan church. Koyasan had a very famous Boy Scout troop.

JK: Yes.

MN: Were you involved with that?

JK: No. It was the next generation. All my younger friends, they took over.

<Begin Segment 8>

MN: So when you were growing up, they didn't have the Boy Scouts yet?

JK: No. There was a Boy Scout troop, but it was not like a drum and bugle corps to show off the troop. It was mostly community, they went for the merit badges. Now it serves.

MN: Now who sponsored this Boy Scout?

JK: The community, the older people. One of the older ones became scoutmaster, and yeah.

MN: So you were not with the Boy Scout, but you were with the YMCA, right?

JK: YMCA and the Olivers.

MN: Before we get into Olivers, tell me about the YMCA.

JK: Now YMCA had one person who worked for the YMCA. I think his office was right, Third or Fourth Street downtown. But I think he worked on the head honchos to have office in the Japanese town. Because this fellow named Masao Sato was very instrumental in pushing the Y for us. And he spent his whole life with the Y. And thanks to him, the Y is part of the Japanese community now.

MN: So when you were involved with the Y, what kind of sports activities did you boys do, and where did you play if there was no office?

JK: Well, we had a basketball court on Second and Main. That was like a gym. People went there to practice boxing or even fight, and that's where they started their boxing interest. It led to people becoming interested in boxing. And so we had people taking up boxing now, and well, there's quite a few boxers in early age.

MN: Did you box?

JK: No. No, my... generation after mine, I guess.

MN: Now you mentioned Masao Satow was head of this Y in Los Angeles trying to get it opened here. What kind of person was he?

JK: Oh, well, he was such a nice person. I knew him as an adult because he was now tangled up in the Y work. He had lots to do with our Japanese Y. Yes, he's, we owe a lot to him because he was associated with a group, the Anchovy group, our club called the Anchovies. Anchovies are the little fish, bait fish, and that was the name for one of the groups. And the Anchovies was a club that he helped start, and that was from the Twentieth Street School. That was from Twentieth Street Christian church that sprang up for the Nisei. So...

MN: Let's talk about the Olivers now. Can you share with us actually what is the Olivers, when did it start?

JK: Well, Ms. Oliver was a teacher at Hayward Street School just west of Maryknoll church. Maryknoll was there, but the school was right across the street from the Japanese Zenshuji. The school was there, it was a small school. And Ms. Oliver was a teacher, and she had a family, she came from the Midwest. After school, she saw the boys playing right in the street. No traffic, but dangerous. So she prevailed upon her older brothers, "Hey, teach these boys the rules for this game." So we took a bunch of them, taught them rules about this game, rule for that game. Pretty soon they were playing the game right away. So she said, "What's happening during the summertime with these boys?" She started a girls club too, but the boys was her main worries. Well, she was in charge of the Oliver building that was part of the Japanese school. So she said, "Hey, they could take over the building." So she and another lady were running a cooking school for the Nisei, for the Mexicans, for the Indians, for any foreign people that didn't know how to cook American-style. They had a room, u-shaped cooking stove for each person to learn how to cook American-style. And so they were cooking hot dogs and hamburgers, things like that. So that became Ms. Oliver's contribution. So she started a club. Men's club first, her brothers' in charge. So the club officially started after World War I. So this group of boys played basketball. They went out and beat San Francisco, the champ of California. So Olivers took over. So they started to enter sectional competition. The boys took this Oliver Sr., that was the first name for the club. Well, as our boys grew up, the seniors went on, juniors took over, Midgets took over. So in line, each group took over the leadership and became a legend in southern California. Olivers and Golden Bears became a legend. "Which group are you?" "Oh, Midget." "Are you Cubs?" "I'm Cubs." Then the younger ones had another.

MN: How long were the Olivers in existence? Is it still in existence?

JK: No. We kind of disbanded 2600, no one fellow that was in charge like a meeting, he says, well, he didn't have any younger help. So about 2600 we kind of quit the...

MN: 2006?

JK: Yes. (Our last trophy is still on display at a downtown window.)

MN: Now you know, a lot of these sports clubs like the Olivers and the Cougars in Boyle Heights sort became like gangs. Did you guys get into a lot of fights with the other sports teams?

JK: Well, at first we had fights because they wanted to come downtown. [Laughs] We won't let them come downtown to celebrate in their style. But then the JAU came in, Japanese Athletic Union.

MN: By Aki Komai?

JK: Mas Saito.

MN: Oh, Mas Sato.

JK: So we formed a league for baseball -- but football was going on but it was too expensive -- softball and basketball. So they became an athletic league. So now we have Cougars, Golden Bears, Oliver, then the Spartans on the south side. West side, Shamrocks, San Fernando, we had team from all the districts of southern California. Now we have teams over all the countryside.

MN: So when you boys got together, especially like in Nisei Week, were there trouble?

JK: At first, they were from the country, you know. "You don't know city style," that's the thing.

MN: You were talking about one big fight that was during Nisei Week. What was that about?

JK: I know they were chasing people up and down the streets.

MN: Actually, I'm sorry. It wasn't Nisei Week, it was at the pool hall at First and San Pedro.

JK: Oh, yeah. The pool hall were associated with kind of gambling. So pool halls had a bad name because they were either up on the second floor or the basement of the building. So it had a bad name and people didn't want to be seen coming out of a pool hall. But the Isseis played pool, and they were not hiding when they came out of the pool halls, because there were mainly pool halls around San Pedro, Second, upstairs. The Niseis were kind of ashamed, they were in the basement on First Street. So I guess... yeah.

MN: You know, there was a well-known gang called the Exclusive 20s. Were you a member of the Exclusive --

JK: No, that was the generation below. My second brother below me was a member of it.

MN: Did he get into a lot of trouble as a member of the Exclusive 20?

JK: Well, they got in trouble with other friends, beating up their friends. Yeah, they came from... well, they were from Boyle Heights. They were a collection of people from near downtown.

MN: Now you were sharing with me that during the summer when you were, I guess, junior high school age, you started to hitchhike on the freight cars?

JK: Yeah. Older people took us, we went. But not too long because they probably had to work through the summer.

MN: How far did you get?

JK: Fresno.

MN: Fresno? What did you do in Fresno?

JK: Pick grapes.

MN: That's a hard job.

JK: Yeah. But we managed.

MN: And your parents didn't mind that...

JK: Well, I guess they thought that we were mature enough. I guess they're too busy with the little ones.

<Begin Segment 9>

MN: Well, I want to talk about your high school years. From Amelia school you went straight into high school? There was no junior high school?

JK: No.

MN: Which high school did you go to?

JK: We went to Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln High School, which was located on north Broadway and Lincoln Heights.

MN: So Amelia Street School had a lot of Japanese Americans. What was the ethnic makeup of Lincoln?

JK: The population was Italian. North Broadway had a colony of Italian businesses, small, no Chinatown. And they were just, Italian families were just moving out to the other stores and merchants.

MN: So in high school, were you very active in sports?

JK: Sad to say, I was delivering Rafu Shimpo.

MN: How did you get started as a Rafu Shimpo delivery boy?

JK: My oldest brother was delivering Rafu Shimpo. He had a Boyle Heights route. And so there was an opening, and so I took over and did the same thing. So it took away my sports program.

MN: Before I ask you a little bit more about the Rafu Shimpo, so you -- I wanted to ask you also about the Bakugotsu group. Tell us a little about that.

JK: Bakugotsu (crazy guys) came out of our heads, because we were suffering so much when we were practicing, like football. Daiichi Gakuen had a yard, oh, not too big, but big enough for our softball teams. Not for baseball because it's too small for that. But for softball and football, part of football. So it had a dirt yard playing football without kneepads, helmets, shoulder pad, elbow guard, if you fell, you just slid and scratched yourself all to bits. Well, I was thinking, god, what a bunch of stupid guys playing without padding. So for a bunch of nuts playing football without padding, so that's the way Bakugotsu came into being.

MN: You called yourself the Bakugotsu?

JK: Yeah.

MN: And this is when you were playing hooky from Japanese school?

JK: Yeah.

MN: Did you get any serious injuries?

JK: You know, gosh, we had ankle injuries, deep scratches, but it's just one boy that had an ankle, I mean, knee. Really, we didn't miss anybody really to injury. Yeah, I guess we were lucky. Yeah, I'm really... I can't think of anyone that really got lame.

MN: But you had to give a lot of your sports, you gave up all your sports activities once you started to be a delivery boy for the Rafu? You had to help the family?

JK: Yeah.

MN: So was your route, did you take over your older brother's East L.A. route?

JK: Yes, I did.

MN: What was your route in Boyle Heights?

JK: Well, it was hard because we had a bagful of newspaper roaring the First Street Bridge. And that bridge was steeper.

MN: Than now? It was steeper than now?

JK: Yes. They kind of evened it out. First Street Bridge over the river, flats, we called it flats because it's flatland. Then up the Boyle Avenue again. That was another climb up. Then the rest of the Boyle Heights route was kind of up in the... it wasn't too bad.

MN: Now, when you're going over there, are you walking, are you on your bicycle?

JK: Yeah, bicycle. We had a canvas bag like a sandwich bag full of paper for the bag, back half, front half. So we had, well, we had enough paper for everybody, but of course we gave it away to friends. So sometimes you might be short of paper because you're giving away some to your friends. But we made it. We had an understanding circulation manager.

MN: Now, you're a downtown boy going into Boyle Heights. Did you have any problems with the Boyle Heights boys?

JK: Oh, no. Because at the same time, the Kashu Mainichi was starting to bid for more circulation and they were, well, they had to be nice. They couldn't have fighters. So no, because the office was downtown, the Kashu Mainichi was in the old Taul Building.

MN: Where did the Kashu Mainichi print their papers?

JK: You know the building I'm talking about? Forgot the name of that.

MN: Yamato Hall?

JK: Yamato Hall. Way in the back, more the opposite side of the Tokyo Club, they had a sort of a warehouse where they printed that. At first, they were... what was that process called?

MN: Linotype?

JK: It wasn't the regular printing.

MN: Mimeograph?

JK: I don't know. Well, at least it had a printing press in the back where they printed I don't know how many, but...

MN: Wasn't Sei Fujii, the publisher of the Kashu Mainichi, very critical of the yakuza, and wasn't the yakuza who owned Yamato Hall?

JK: Gee, you know, I didn't get the inside story. I don't know. But Fujii, Sei Fujii was supposed to be for the farmers. We never got the inside story on that ownership, but gosh...

MN: Now going back to you as a Rafu delivery boy, did you deliver seven days a week?

JK: Yes. Seven days a week. Funnies section on Sundays, eight pages, which made that paper twice as big. Four pages of comics is a very heavy load, just like in other same ship load of subscribers.

MN: So how did you deliver the Sunday papers?

JK: Sunday papers we had to use rubber band. Twist it to bend over and too far to throw, so I had my father's Model T Ford, I'd bring my friends something, hamburger. We'd stop by the hamburger joint on the way to bribe the young boys.

MN: And they helped you deliver the Sunday papers?

JK: Yeah.

MN: So did the customers, subscribers give you tips?

JK: No, we didn't see any subscribers. The people were working, mama and papa had a store, papa's working, mama's taking care of the kids. So yeah, it was mostly absentee ownership.

MN: Do you remember how much you were making?

JK: I made $37.50 for one route a month, which was very good because going wages for the older Nisei, twenty-five dollars a month.

MN: And you were still in high school.

JK: Yeah. My older brother was working wholesale market forty-eight, fifty hours a week, god, making thirty dollars a week. [Laughs] "I got you beat," I'm bragging to my brother. So, yeah. And newspaper delivery wasn't bad.

MN: So how long were you a Rafu paper delivery boy?

JK: Oh, I guess about three years and three years for the market.

<Begin Segment 10>

MN: So you were a delivery boy and on the weekends you worked at the Grand Central Market?

JK: No, that one came later.

MN: After you graduated from high school?

JK: Yeah.

MN: So tell us about this other job you had at the Grand Central Market.

JK: Yeah. Well, Grand Central was a market in which owners owned stalls like a carnival. Carnival has a hit the dummy with baseball, or baseball throwing or batting. So you had food. Well, usually a square in the whole market. First floor and a basement floor, and usually was another flight up. So it was a big market, sold everything. So people owned whatever they were selling. Mostly fruits and vegetables or [inaudible] or tortillas or Chinese chop suey. So it was a marketplace for food.

[Interruption]

MN: Okay, keep talking, tell us more about this Grand Central Market. What did you do there and how often did you work there?

JK: Okay. Well, Saturday, as you can imagine, is a busy day. So the market was busy Saturday. Usually it opened just like the regular stores did on Broadway, eight to six. A white man's job. Outside markets opened from six o'clock in the morning to almost night, midnight. So Saturdays was a busy day, so they hired high school people to work, extra help to peel the corn, chop the lettuce, cabbage, doing everything they needed to be done.

MN: Is that what you did?

JK: Yeah. Saturday you went chopping the heads of lettuce, cabbage, [inaudible], you need to cut for family size. You had to trim lettuce, what the customers, you can't worry the rotten fruits. Oh, god. They used to sell rotten... well, not to the customer, but almost the customers got very overripe tomatoes, what else? Overripe squashes. I'm telling you, it was kind of a shame to sell those because ordinary people wouldn't buy them if they knew what was, been sold. So we got away with murder because we had inspectors, food inspectors that came. The food inspectors went to the wholesale market, the same food that they inspect for the retail market. So they come to the wholesale market, the wholesale market opened very early in the morning. They come into the market, pass all those things, and so they pass two inspections without being dumped because they would, we'd have to dump some of the food that didn't pass the inspectors. So it was fun, I mean, for us, because...

MN: But you didn't take any of those foods home?

JK: Well, some.

<Begin Segment 11>

MN: So what year did you graduate from high school?

JK: 1933.

MN: And then after that, is that when you started to work at the wholesale market, the Ninth Street Wholesale Market?

JK: Yes.

MN: And then while you were working at the wholesale market, you started to attend college?

JK: No. I started school first, City College. It was supposed to be two years, preparatory for UCLA, Berkeley, or any four-year college. Well, for us Nisei, most of us didn't see any future. You see people going to college, what for? You're working in the market like your brother working in the market, why? Why'd they go to school? That was the thought in both of our thinking. So, you know, discouragement. So lots of people decided to go to school, took a job with the city, with anybody else, grow crops in the farm. So they had lot of options where to go. I think lots of them went back to the farm.

MN: But what about you? What did you major in at City College?

JK: Yeah, I had ambition. I went into journalism. Why? I had visions of writing sports stories.

MN: Did you have experience in high school?

JK: High school we were the, I was the editor-in-chief with another fellow. We wrote a column, a gossip column making fun of friends. So I thought I had crossed the knowledge for paper boy. After going to journalism school at City College, hey, we never did this in school. So it was a big change. And I, first year, we had L.A. Times, L.A. Examiner, both evening papers. Then we had the Hearst papers, L.A. Herald Express, which was afternoon. So I went to see a future job. Did I get a run around. No, Japanese face in a Caucasian office? I got the, "Hurry up and leave." So I said, "Oh, forget it." So I changed my subject.

MN: Did you ever apply for a job with, like, the Rafu Shimpo?

JK: Oh, no.

MN: Why not?

JK: I'm not thinking of the Rafu. I could have done better. [Laughs]

MN: You wanted to break in to the mainstream newspaper?

JK: Yeah.

MN: So they did...

JK: No attention. Yeah, the time was not right. Because we heard stories of Oriental faces getting too familiar with Caucasian... we had a swimming pool on First and Vermont called... it was a public swimming pool. There were signs -- not signs, stories that Oriental faces were seeing familiar with Caucasian faces or something. We heard that from L.A. City College where we were going. So you hear stories like that, you believe it or call people a liar. But we didn't hear stories. That was the '30s.

<Begin Segment 12>

MN: Well, Jack, I want to ask you about something a little more pleasant. You had a very active night life. What were you doing at night after work and after school?

JK: Well, we were shooting pool. Pool shooting wasn't acceptable in a Issei house. And Niseis were, well, ashamed to be seen coming out of the basement after shooting pool.

MN: So didn't your parents get upset at you?

JK: Yeah, they did, but since I was working, they didn't... well, they didn't say too much because they were too lazy installing... what was the word I would use? Well, I think of it later.

MN: Tell me about the dances you used to go to. Dances. You used to go to a lot of the dances.

JK: Oh, yes. Well, in gym class, during rainy days, the city... not the city. We were under the city's program to learn dancing. 1930s, about, we were dancing through a program of the city doing this and that. The city changed their mind, changed the curriculum and said, "Hey, we got to change during rainy days." So they said, "Well, yeah, let's try dancing." So on the rainy days, waltz and foxtrot were the dances. Just our speed. So we learned the turns for the foxtrot and waltz, quick step, we were learning the basic for dancing waltz and foxtrot, which was fine for us who were becoming Americanized.

MN: What about the swing and the jitterbug?

JK: Oh, yeah, well, that came later, yeah. So rainy days, we danced. You learned how to turn, you learned how to back up, you learned how to spiral. So we learned the basic foxtrot. And then the wars are coming closer, we did the jitterbug.

MN: Where did you do the jitterbugs and the swing? Did you have dances on Saturday nights?

JK: Oh, yes.

MN: Where did you have the dances at?

JK: What had most was all these foreign nationals. They would get together, they have their own clubhouse. The Germans had their own clubhouse, the Romanians had, the Jewish had their own clubhouse. So they have clubhouse all over the city, became dance halls. So when the war started coming, each group would have dance halls, so we had nothing but empty dance halls to go in. So we were lucky. Our generation, it started around Washington and Grand. We could go anyplace, look for the signs, and see a sign with a foreign, "Hey, they might have a hall." Yeah, let's go ask, "How much for a hall for Saturday night from nine to twelve August 1st?" "Oh, you want a hall? Yes." So we had dance hall with the German clubs or the Romanian clubs, with the Jewish clubs, with all the different nationalities, they had empty halls. So we were lucky, we had a dance, and we had a hall.

MN: So when you had these dances, how far did people come?

JK: Well, we thought we had a local club. But we forgot that people were taking lessons in Norwalk, Torrance, Gardena. So we had people from all over the city. Yeah.

MN: Did any fights break out in these dances?

JK: Yeah, at first. Because natural rivalry. "Where you from?" "Gardena." "What?" So it was like that, I think most of the community.

MN: Did you go out to Norwalk and those places for dances?

JK: Yeah. But our group, like to say, was outgoing, because our downtown group was more advanced. We were, learned the latest dance steps, jitterbug and all that. And people would watch us, "Show me the steps."

MN: So downtown set the trend.

JK: Yeah.

MN: Did you dress in a zoot suit?

JK: Well, we did. We looked like Mexicans. We had three fellows, including me, two others who had zoot suits. They were [inaudible] any Mexican dance.

MN: And where did you learn your dance steps from?

JK: Some of us sneaked into the pay dance halls.

MN: And what kind of pay dance halls? Were these African Americans or Mexicans or hakujin?

JK: Hakujins. So we were accepted because the Filipinos had no choice. They went to the big dance halls. And people think we're Filipinos anyway.

MN: Now, I know the Niseis also did a lot of skating at the shrine.

JK: Yeah. This came... the clubs, there were so many Japanese club, especially those that went to the same high school: Norwalk, Torrance, Gardena, or where else? L.A. Poly, Lincoln, they all had clubs, Japanese clubs. And they had Japanese dolls and Japanese costumes for like Girl's Day. So naturally clubs, you learned to dance. Japanese were good dancers because they had teachers.

<Begin Segment 13>

MN: So I'm going to go back to the skating at the shrine. Tell me about that. Tell me about that.

JK: All right. If you were in high school, you probably were in a Japanese club. Japanese club, you have a bento feast, bring your bento and eat, eat Japanese food and all that. Then for the Girl's Day, you have a girl, say, "Hey, you got a kimono?" Or you can borrow one from friend. Okay. Wear your kimono. And so it got to be Girl's Day kimono. School picture's up, oh, Japan Day, the next school picks it up, and you have a Girl's Day almost city wide. Yeah, I think that was a good thing for the Japanese girls because Japanese girls are so timid.

MN: So what did these Japanese girls clubs do?

JK: Serve tea. Our school didn't have enough Japanese people. Well, they were there, but they're not, I don't know, Japanese inclined to certain... but we were in Lincoln High, Italians, a few Mexican. I saw one colored boy in my class. Lincoln High was just almost downtown.

MN: I think there was a lot of vineyards a long time ago, wine vineyards in that area, right?

JK: Yeah, yeah. So that's what we did. We went with, sneaked out with the Italian boys, go home. The wine is all ready, so we have a wine feast.

MN: Underage drinking.

JK: Well, they were wine drinkers from the day they were born.

MN: Going back to the girls club, okay, they held fundraisers, right?

JK: Oh, yes.

MN: What kind of fundraisers did they hold?

JK: Skating. You go to the Shrine Auditorium, we got a ticket for twenty-five cents. So you're at the skating club at the Shrine, boys and girls skate together, ladies only, men only, couples only. They had a great time.

MN: Now, is this where you met your future wife Masa Fujioka?

JK: Yeah.

MN: The skating rink at the Shrine?

JK: But the girls had also a basketball team. The girls started basketball and softball, so they started playing different clubs. Union church had the Keinans. Who else? Oh, I don't remember the other clubs. So they had a league, and we used to watch them on Saturday, weekends, go tease the girls.

MN: And that's how you met Masa?

JK: She had a family that all played basketball and softball.

<Begin Segment 14>

MN: Now, you're active in a lot of things. You graduate from City College. Now, had your father passed away before you graduated?

JK: Yes.

MN: What year did he pass away?

JK: Oh... way back in the '30s. I know it was originally at Koyasan. It was still on Central Avenue.

MN: What happened to your father?

JK: Well, he was on his way home from work on a Saturday because he had to deliver flowers to a funeral in San Fernando. Because he had just a few floral wreaths, he had taken a small pickup. He had a pickup and a smaller truck. Anyway, unfortunately, his car had a flat tire, and those days, inner tubes had air for the tire. Well, when the inner tube blows up, you're out of whack. You're in trouble. So tube blow, he just went across into the wrong lane. So hit a truck, and he never regained consciousness. So I was working at Grand Central. My friend came to tell me, so put on my jacket and ran to the Japanese hospital in Boyle Heights, ran up there, too late. So it was... yeah.

MN: So your father never regained consciousness.

JK: No.

MN: So did Frank take over as the head of the household after?

JK: No. My younger brother did. I had a regular market job.

MN: Is your father buried at Evergreen?

JK: Yeah.

MN: So now once your father passed away, your mother had to also bring in some income. What did she do?

JK: Well, in the meantime, we had moved to another spot closer to Fukuis, well, around the block. We had been close to Fukuis for the longest time. Yeah, so the son, Shoichi, was now... was he in charge? I know the girls were his sister's friends, so they weren't afraid of dead bodies. So, yeah, they were all playmates running around the funeral halls. Shame on them. [Laughs]

MN: So your family had moved again, and that's on Gary Street, right? And then once your father passed away, then you were at Gary Street and you were living with your mother and Sue at the time and Midori?

JK: Yes.

MN: And did you have to help out in the business now, bringing in the income?

JK: Yeah. Then just before the war, a neighbor who ran the store, they decided to go back to Japan. So we'd been neighbors, we bought the store. My sister Sue, well, she was out of high school. I was working wholesale, bringing home hard vegetables. Worked out well until Pearl Harbor.

<Begin Segment 15>

MN: And so you mentioned Pearl Harbor. What were you doing on that Sunday, December 7th?

JK: Oh, boy. Was it kind of scary. We had made plans, half a dozen boys, to go to professional football game at the Gilmore Stadium. So on that day, we met downtown, "Okay, you got your money for the ticket, right?" "Okay, let's go." Go to the parking lot, park the car, walk in, buy the tickets, then we hear FDR's voice over the telephone, over the loudspeakers. I don't know how we started, I've forgotten. But he announced that America was now at war. When that happened, we just turned around, walked back to the car, got in the car, not a word spoken. Came back to First and San Pedro, went to the pool hall, turned on the radio to hear, and heard the bad news.

MN: So when you're in the pool hall, what were you boys talking about?

JK: The consequence of the war. How is it gonna affect us? What's gonna happen to the folks? What's gonna happen to the store? Nobody expected a mass evacuation. Gee, that was the least, I thought. That didn't come to any of our minds.

MN: Now you're in the pool hall, you're in Little Tokyo. What was Little Tokyo like on Pearl Harbor day?

JK: It was a mess. Everybody hear from sheriff, g-men, policemen, firemen, everybody in their uniform, made it their business to confront Japanese, you know, Issei. Yeah, I know a lot of them were namaiki, you know. We had no business, but some of the FBI were gentlemen, because they acted like it was a big thing. But it affected so many families. Not my family, but my wife, future wife's family, they were just [inaudible]. I felt sorry for them.

MN: Yeah, you mentioned that affected Masa's family. How was her family affected?

JK: Her father was very important in downtown. He was sort of a secretary to the club.

MN: Chamber of Commerce.

JK: Yeah. So he was picked up at home, I guess.

MN: By the FBI?

JK: Yeah. So they were... I've forgotten. They were in a camp, then they were sent to Wyoming.

MN: Is that Tujunga?

JK: They were in Tujunga.