Densho Digital Archive - Yuriko Hohri Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

MN: July 18, 2011, we're at the Japanese American Cultural and Community Center in Los Angeles. We will be interviewing Yuriko Katayama Hohri, and we have Tani Ikeda on the video camera, and I'll be interviewing. My name is Martha Nakagawa. So, Yuriko, I wanted to start by asking you about your maternal grandparents, Fusakichi Kanow from Osaka, and Hide Dan Kanow from Kobe. What were they doing in the early 1900s in San Francisco?

YH: They moved there from Japan.

MN: What kind of business did they have?

YH: My grandfather, Fusakichi, was in the import/export business.

MN: So he was importing a lot of Japanese goods?

YH: Yeah.

MN: And selling to the Caucasians?

YH: Yeah. Well, not Caucasian but to anyone who wanted to buy the merchandise.

MN: Now, your maternal grandparents had a total of eight children, and how many were born in the United States?

YH: I think it was ten, because I think I've forgotten, let's see, there was Taro, my mother, Yaye, and her sister Helen, and Noble, and Shimpachi, and Franklin, and Hichiro, and Hachiro, oh, and there was Jimmy. So there were nine. There were seven boys and two girls.

MN: Now, were they all born in the United States? Were some of them born in Japan?

YH: No, they, I think they were all born in the United States.

MN: And so where was your mother, Yaye Kanow, born?

YH: She was born in San Francisco.

MN: So she's a Nisei.

YH: Yes.

MN: Now how old was your mother when your grandparents sent her to live with relatives in Tokyo?

YH: She must've entered before she was in kindergarten.

MN: What kind of school did your mother attend in Tokyo?

YH: She attended a Catholic school.

MN: So she learned English at this Catholic school?

YH: She must have.

MN: Do you know what other lessons she learned at this...

YH: Well, she learned Shakespeare and she learned all the arts, like tatting and sewing and, 'cause she sewed all her kimonos and she knew how to draft the kimonos.

MN: You mentioned tatting. For those of us who don't know what that is, can you explain to us what that is?

YH: Oh, that's, you use very fine thread and you, and it makes something like a lace and you, and she edged all the handkerchiefs around with this tatting lace, and then on the corners she would make the more elaborate lace.

MN: Sounds like it's a very detailed kinda work.

YH: Yeah, it is. And you use a shuttle.

MN: What's a shuttle?

YH: It's a type of a hook that you put the thread into, and then you poke it and then you take thread out, and then it makes another loop or, you know, to make these lace like edges. It was about this big, I'd say, and it was shaped like, sort of like an oval with a point at the end.

MN: Is this something you learned also? Did she teach you?

YH: No. No, I didn't learn it at all.

MN: What sort of memories did your mother share with you about her experience in Tokyo?

YH: She said that the only time that she missed her mother was when she received honors at the school and there was no one to praise her for those honors.

MN: Now, after your mother graduated from this Catholic school in Tokyo, what did she do?

YH: Well, a marriage was arranged for her, and she met the man and she didn't like him at all, and so that's when she decided to come back to the U.S.

MN: So by the time your mother returned to the U.S. and rejoined her family, your grandparents had moved to Long Beach. Do you know why they moved from San Francisco to Long Beach?

YH: Because there was an earthquake in San Francisco, so that's why they decided to move the whole family to Long Beach.

MN: And this is that big 1906 San Francisco earthquake?

YH: Right. Yeah.

MN: Were your grandparents still in the importing business?

YH: Yes.

MN: Where did they have their store?

YH: They had it on, on some place called the Pike in Long Beach.

MN: That was like right on the, like a pier, is that what it was?

YH: Yeah. And it wasn't on the pier, but it was next to the pier. It was close to the pier.

MN: Did your mother have to help out in the family business?

YH: Yes.

MN: What did she do there?

YH: She sold the goods. They had Japanese materials, and they had a lot of china.

MN: So I'm assuming when your mother returned from Japan she still spoke English? And she was able to look after the store?

YH: Yes.

<Begin Segment 2>

MN: Now, your mother then ended up living at the YWCA. What happened?

YH: Well, she saw that her brothers were not doing anything at home, and so she didn't think that was fair so she moved to the YW. And she moved there because she had a friend who was on the board at the YW. Her name was Mrs. Minnick, and Mrs. Minnick got her into the YW. She really liked it there because the other women there taught her all kinds of things.

MN: Sounds like your mother was very independent.

YH: Oh yeah, she was very independent. Yeah.

MN: Now, when your mother was living at the YWCA she met your father, Noboru Tom Katayama, from Wakayama ken. What was their courtship like?

YH: Well, he would, they had to, all the women at the YW had to be in by nine o'clock every night, and so my father would go there in his motorcycle. He'd pick her up and get her back by nine p.m.

MN: So your father drove a motorcycle?

YH: Yes.

MN: Do you know how long they were courting before they got married?

YH: I don't think it was very long.

MN: And which church did your parents get married in?

YH: The Long Beach Presbyterian Church.

MN: Was your father Christian at this time?

YH: No.

MN: When your Nisei mother married your Issei father, did your mother lose her U.S. citizenship?

YH: Yes. It was just a very short period of time, but I think it was just a few months, not even six months' window. 'Cause she married him at that time, so that's why she lost her citizenship.

MN: How did she regain it back?

YH: When they lived in Chicago, Illinois, they went through the naturalization process.

MN: So this is back, this is way later in 1956? I think that's when the law went in --

YH: Yeah. I think it was about then.

MN: So your mother had to wait that long to regain her citizenship again.

YH: Yeah. She wasn't terribly interested in doing that, but she went with my father, because if you didn't have your citizenship you couldn't vote and he wanted to vote. Even after she got her citizenship, she never voted. She wasn't interested in politics. My father, my father would, he would tell everyone, "I'm voting for this guy." [Laughs] It's supposed to be secret ballot.

MN: Now, your mother is a Nisei. Your father's a Issei. How do you identify yourself?

YH: I identify myself as a Nisei, a young Nisei.

MN: Now, after your parents got married, were they able to honeymoon?

YH: Yeah, they went to Yosemite National Park. And my father bought a convertible, and there's a, the back tire had, was covered with a painting, said "Yosemite National Park."

<Begin Segment 3>

MN: Yuriko, I want to start talking about you now.

YH: Okay.

MN: Where were you born?

YH: Long Beach, California, Seaside Hospital.

MN: You were born in a hospital?

YH: Yeah.

MN: That's very unusual at this time. Were you also delivered by a hakujin doctor?

YH: Yes.

MN: Now what, what year were you born?

YH: 1929.

MN: You're the oldest of four girls.

YH: Yes.

MN: Your youngest two sisters are twins, which is very unusual for Japanese Americans.

YH: Yeah.

MN: Did your mother have problems delivering them?

YH: No. They were, they were full term, but they were, they weighed, I think it was three and a half and four and a half pounds, 'cause I remember my father bringing them outdoors, and he had a, he had a diaper in one hand and a diaper in another hand, and then he was carrying the twins one in each hand. They were so little.

MN: They were tiny, three and four pounds. Wow.

YH: Yeah. But they were full term, and my mother fed them with an eye dropper because, well, they couldn't, their mouths were so small they couldn't open to put them around her nipple.

MN: Now, what did your mother say about how the Japanese viewed twins?

YH: Oh, they were considered bad luck.

MN: How did your mother view the twins?

YH: She loved her daughters. Yeah. She didn't view them that way at all.

MN: Can you share with us this twins contest in Huntington Beach?

YH: Yes. My mother went every year with my twin sisters, and they always came home with a prize. And she always dressed them in a kimono.

MN: Now, this contest was for everybody, general, not just for Japanese Americans?

YH: No, 'cause they were the only Japanese American twins. There were no other Japanese American twins.

MN: Do you think that's why they were winning all the time?

YH: I think so. I think my mother dressed 'em in kimonos too.

MN: And I'm assuming she made the kimonos?

YH: Yes, she made the kimonos.

<Begin Segment 4>

MN: Now most Japanese Americans who were growing up in your era adopted Anglican names. Did you ever adopt an Anglican name?

YH: No. My name was always Yuriko.

MN: What is the first language that you learned, Japanese or English?

YH: I think I learned Japanese first, at home, and then when I went to kindergarten I learned English.

MN: Which Japanese school did you attend?

YH: The one in Signal Hill.

MN: Did you go every day or just Saturdays?

YH: Just Saturday. Saturday morning. I think Dr. Kamiya was the president of the Japanese language school there.

MN: What was Japanese school like?

YH: Well, every time we went in the morning we would have calisthenics. We would exercise outdoors and then we would go into the, our classroom.

MN: Did you have to learn a lot of the Japanese songs, like Kimigayo and a lot of those kinds of very Japanese things?

YH: No.

MN: Now, you weren't in Japanese school very long. What happened?

YH: Oh, because the war broke out.

MN: But you were also, you were sharing with me how you were left-handed.

YH: Yes, I was left-handed, and so when I went to the blackboard my handwriting would slant from right to left, and also I would turn my page almost upside down on the desk 'cause otherwise I'd be writing off the page, and they said you have to use your right hand to write Japanese, so I said if that happened I wasn't going to Japanese school. And so, because I wasn't changed when I went to public school, and because my teacher said that if they changed my hand I would stutter, so they never, they just let me do my left-handed, write with my left hand. And then, anyway, the Japanese language school said I could go to school and write with my left hand, 'cause they say if you write with a brush everything, would look funny.

MN: And so the teacher at your American school is the one who said if you change your hand to your right hand you might stutter?

YH: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 5>

MN: You come from a very musically oriented family, and you mentioned your parents would invite people to come and play music?

YH: Yes.

MN: What kind of people came to your house?

YH: They were Japanese, and I think they were about two other people who played the shakuhachi with my father, so that made three people playing the shakuhachi. And they'd set up their music stand in our living room and then my mother would play the koto, and that was maybe once a month, every Sunday afternoon.

MN: And what kind of, do you remember what kind of music they played?

YH: Well, it was all Japanese music, and we would, my sisters and I would sit and listen for a while then go out and play.

MN: So you never participated in these?

YH: No.

MN: When did your parents enroll you in piano lessons?

YH: That's when I, we went to the Presbyterian church, and Miss Shilling was my piano teacher. So I would take a lesson every Saturday, and then we had a piano at home and I would practice at home.

MN: What kind of piano did you have?

YH: It was an upright

MN: And Miss Shilling, is she, was she teaching out of the church?

YH: Yes, piano at the church. And she, and I learned from that piano.

MN: How long did you take the piano lessons?

YH: Well, it wasn't very long. Maybe four years. 'Cause we went to camp when I was twelve, so I must've been eight. But I was also taking dancing lessons.

MN: Tell me about that. You started dancing about four?

YH: Four, 'cause my father thought that if I took dancing lessons it would cure my bowlegs, so that's why he said I'd take dancing lessons. And I took from Billie Hilton on Atlantic Avenue, from four until twelve. And I took tap dancing, ballet dancing, and toe dancing. And sometimes I would stay at their house and have dinner with Billie and her husband, Charles, and then I would take another lesson in the evening and then my father would come after me.

MN: It sounds like you were very good, to be staying at the teacher's house and then practicing after dinner.

YH: Yeah. 'Cause she always had me go by myself to different venues, and I would tap dance, and everyone liked that because I was a cute Japanese girl. [Laughs] My mother made all the costumes, so I had, I had a black velvet short trunk costume with a satin shirt, white satin shirt with great big sleeves. And then I'd wear a top hat, a tall top hat that was white with sparkles on it, and I had a cane that also was white and had sparkles on it.

MN: And were you doing solos?

YH: Yes, they were all solos. No one danced with me. [Laughs]

MN: Now, when you did these solos, though, did the audience, I'm assuming they're Caucasians, did they give you a hard time?

YH: No. I think they liked what they saw. Yeah, I was very cute and I was very little, and then I, my mother made me an Alice blue gown dress, and that had, it was all ruffles down to the floor, and then she had some ties on it so it would go up to my wrists so that when I did like this [lifts arms] the dress would come up. And she had a, she made me a hat too, a big hat that went up with ruffles on the inside and tied with a bow under my chin. I think that was a sort of a pink and orange organza dress.

MN: Do you still have any of these dresses?

YH: No, I don't. I wish I did, 'cause there was a lot of work involved in making those costumes.

MN: Were you Billie Hilton's only Japanese American teacher?

YH: Billie Hilton, I was her only Japanese student.

MN: Did you enjoy dancing?

YH: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I was a showoff. I really liked being applauded and smiled at, all that.

MN: Now, if the war hadn't happened, do you think you would've pursued dancing?

YH: I would. Yeah, I really liked it. 'Cause at the same time my mother enrolled my sister Miyeko in dancing, but she didn't like it all.

MN: Did your parents ever enroll you in, like, Japanese dancing?

YH: No.

MN: Now I want to ask you, like on Sundays, did your family attend church?

YH: I don't, my family didn't, but we did. The children did. The four of us did. We went to Sunday school every Sunday.

MN: Who took you to Sunday school?

YH: My father, 'cause he's the only one that drove the car.

<Begin Segment 6>

MN: Long Beach is really close to Terminal Island. How often did you go to Terminal Island?

YH: We went to Terminal Island about once a month, 'cause that's where we got our Japanese food.

MN: And what did you girls do while your parents were shopping?

YH: We went around the corner to the comic books store, 'cause my father said we could each have one comic book. It's, I always got Sheena, Queen of the Jungle. [Laughs]

MN: So, like, going to Terminal Island once a month was a treat for you.

YH: Yeah. It was.

MN: How did you get there?

YH: By car.

MN: So you went over the bridge. You didn't take the ferry.

YH: No. We never took the ferry.

MN: Did you interact with the Japanese American Terminal Islanders?

YH: Well, in a way we did because every time we went there these boys would be in the back of the car outside, and they'd be calling us all kinds of names and then we would, we would call them names too.

MN: Maybe they were flirting with you.

YH: I don't think so. I don't think they liked us because we were so snotty 'cause we didn't live in Terminal Island.

MN: So they knew you were outsiders.

YH: Right.

MN: Now, other than visiting Terminal Island, did your parents take other trips?

YH: No, we stayed around home most of the time, except sometimes in the winter we'd go to Mount Baldy. And my mother would pack a lunch because my father wanted us to see the snow, and so we would, she would make a rabbit stew and we'd take that to Mount Baldy, 'cause rabbit is really a nice meat because it's all white meat and there's lots of it.

MN: Now, the rabbit, were they being sold in stores, the rabbit meat?

YH: It must've been because we didn't have any rabbits at home, 'cause it was when we went to Des Moines that we had rabbits 'cause we had a place where they, where we could keep them in our basement.

MN: And those rabbit in Des Moines, did you eat them too, or were they pets?

YH: No, they, I think we ate them. We, they were not pets.

<Begin Segment 7>

MN: Now, I want to ask a little bit about your schooling. Which grammar school did you attend?

YH: Let's see, I think I went to Garfield Elementary School, and Miss Morgan was my kindergarten teacher.

MN: And what was the ethnic makeup of Garfield?

YH: At that time I was the only Japanese American girl going there, and there was one other Japanese American boy going there. His last name was Kuroda, and the children there would tease me about him, but I didn't pay any attention.

MN: So the rest of the student body, were they all hakujin?

YH: Yes.

MN: And then other than being teased about this other student, Kuroda, did they tease you about being Japanese American?

YH: No.

MN: What are your memories of attending Garfield?

YH: Well, they had a cafeteria, and my mother always gave us a nickel and packed a lunch, like a half a sandwich and a fourth of a candy bar, and then she'd tell us to buy soup. So the soup, the nickel was for the soup, so we always had a sandwich and soup.

MN: Now Garfield, what grade did you go, from what grade to what grade was Garfield?

YH: Kindergarten to sixth grade.

MN: And then from sixth grade did you go straight to high school?

YH: No, I went to junior high school.

MN: Which junior high school did you go to?

YH: Washington Irving Junior High School.

MN: And what was the ethnic makeup of Washington Irving?

YH: I think, I don't remember any Japanese Americans there and I don't remember any blacks or any Hispanics, so it must've been all, me the only the Japanese American and the rest were whites.

MN: Now I want to ask a little bit about your parents. What did your father do for a living?

YH: He was a wholesale producer.

MN: And what about your mother?

YH: My mother helped him at the grocery store. He had the produce department of two grocery stores, so my mother helped him at the Magnolia Market store.

MN: And the Magnolia Market is in Long Beach?

YH: Yes, on Magnolia Avenue.

MN: Did you have to help out at the store?

YH: Sometimes. Well, I would go there every afternoon after school. My father would pick me up at school and then I would go to the Magnolia store and stand on a box and wash all the carrots.

MN: Now, you were born right before the Great Depression.

YH: Yes.

MN: And your sisters were born during the Depression.

YH: Right.

MN: Did your parents have a problem feeding the family?

YH: No, 'cause he was in the wholesale produce business, so we always had enough fruits and vegetables. And then we didn't eat much meat anyway to begin with, mostly fruits and vegetables.

MN: So your mother, what kind of cooking did she do at home, American or Japanese?

YH: She, I think she did both, but I think mostly Japanese. 'Cause she would make, with pork bones she would make a mixture of tomatoes and the pork bones and, oh, I just remember that, but she may have put some string beans in there, so that's what we ate with rice.

<Begin Segment 8>

MN: Your father is from Wakayama ken.

YH: Yes.

MN: How active was he in the Wakayama kenjinkai?

YH: He was very active. He was the president for many years, and they always had a picnic every year in Silverado Park in Long Beach, and then he would always lead the Obon.

MN: Can you share what your father did during Christmas also?

YH: Oh yes, during Christmas, this was when we lived in Des Moines, and Christmas was a very busy time for him. Also at Mother's Day, so at Christmas we'd always wait until he got home because he would work at the night meal. And so we would always wait until he got home before we opened our packages.

MN: Now, I thought in Long Beach, when you were still living in Long Beach, I thought your father dressed in a, like a Santa suit?

YH: Yeah, he did. He dressed in a Santa, he had a long stocking cap that was red and there was a tassel on the end that was white, and he always put that on. And he had a big sack -- I think rice came in the sack -- and he'd put all his, all the gifts in there, and then we'd make all the stops and take the packages out of the sack and give it to our friends.

MN: So when you went delivering these presents what kind of car did your father drive?

YH: I think he had a, I think he had a Packard. It was a big car and it had wood frames around the window, because we used to gnaw away on the, on that wood frame, and you could see our teeth marks on the wood frame. I don't know why we did that, but that's what we did, all four of us.

MN: Can I guess on this gnawing on the wooden frame? Because I was on a pilgrimage once where we were talking, there was a young girl who used to gnaw on her piano legs, and there was a doctor sitting next, and he thought it was because they had a deficiency.

YH: Oh. I don't...

MN: So maybe...

YH: Maybe, deficiency of what, some kind of food?

MN: That was his guess on why she was gnawing on the piano leg.

YH: Yeah. My father liked to, when the twins couldn't go to sleep, he had two big rectangular straw boxes in the backseat, and he'd put one of the twins in one and another twin in the other, and then he'd just ride around the block and they were sound asleep. He'd take them into the house in the basket, put 'em in their bed.

MN: How active was your father with the Japanese language school?

YH: He was treasurer of the Japanese language school, and that's probably why he had to go to that, the other internment camp. I found that out years later.

MN: When he got picked up by the FBI?

YH: Right, why he got picked up.

MN: Let me ask you a little bit more about your father. You mentioned he played golf.

YH: Yes, he did.

MN: Who were his golf partners?

YH: I don't know who they were, but he played golf every weekend. He had his golf bag and his clubs and his balls, and he'd always put it over his shoulder every weekend and go play.

MN: Did your father play any other sports?

YH: When he was younger he played baseball. Because I have a picture of him in his baseball uniform, so I know he played baseball. 'Cause he was very young when he went to that prison camp, he was about thirty-seven years old, so he was about the youngest man there.

MN: Now, you mentioned that your mother made all the girls' clothes.

YH: Yes.

MN: Did you get a lot of compliments from people on your clothes?

YH: I don't remember. She made us these pleated skirts, and she made us a sailor dress with this big collar in the back and edged in black. She was an accomplished seamstress.

MN: Yeah, making pleated skirts is very hard.

YH: Yeah, it was very fancy for us.

MN: So did your mother stay up late at night doing sewing?

YH: No.

MN: How would you describe your family economically before the war? Would you say it was middle or upper class?

YH: I'd say middle to upper, because we lived in a big, a big house in Long Beach and not many people lived in a house as big as ours. I think that was because my father was an independent produce business.

MN: He was doing very well.

YH: Yes.

<Begin Segment 9>

MN: Now I want to get into the war years. Do you remember what you were doing on Sunday, December 7, 1941?

YH: No, I don't remember. What I do remember after Pearl Harbor, they had, my father and all my uncles met at my grandmother's house to decide whether we should stay in California or leave the state altogether. And then everyone decided that we should stay.

MN: Now, because you decided to stay, what happened to your father?

YH: He was picked up by the FBI.

MN: Do you remember --

YH: From his work. I remember that because when he came home he still had his apron on that he wore when he worked in the grocery store. And he came home in his car and the FBI came home in their, came to our house in their car and came straight into our house and then, and then they told my father to pack. So while (he was) packing the FBI searched our house. They went into the living room and the kitchen, and the back porch because that's where we had the washing machine, and then they looked under the sink and my mother had a curtain under the sink, and they looked into the stove 'cause it, the tie from the stove was up here. And then as they were going into the living room there was a cabinet on the side of the gas heater, and they took all this shakuhachi music out of that cabinet. I don't know why they were doing that, but anyway, they took it all away. And then my father had one small duffel bag, and he was putting all his things into the duffel bag, opening up the tansu drawers and putting his underwear and his shorts, his socks in the duffel bag. And then the FBI agent went into the, my mother and father's closet and turned his golf bag upside down so all the golf balls came out of there and rolled across the bedroom rug. I don't know why they were doing that. So anyway, and my mother was really getting scared and my father was telling her, you know, "It'll be okay, you don't have to worry." And then the FBI took him away in their car.

MN: You mentioned they took the shakuhachi music.

YH: Yeah.

MN: Do you think the FBI thought it was code or something?

YH: I think so.

MN: I'm just trying to think why they would take that.

YH: Yeah, 'cause the shakuhachi music is really, it's really hard to read unless you knew how to play the shakuhachi. I guess to anyone else it would look like code, especially if you were an FBI agent.

MN: And you're watching all this, what's going through your mind?

YH: Well, I didn't know what the heck they were doing.

MN: Were you angry? Were you scared?

YH: No, I wasn't angry or scared. I was just watching them 'cause I was curious what they were doing.

MN: How did you feel about having them take your father away?

YH: Well, I don't know how I would feel, but then the next thing I knew I was with my grandmother, I think they called it Tujunga Canyon, and I could see my father a long distance away. I couldn't talk to him or touch him 'cause he was behind a big wire fence, but I could see that he was crying. And then, and then we left. So my grandmother must have known that my father was there, 'cause I didn't know he was there.

MN: Someone drove you out to Tujunga Canyon.

YH: Yeah. Do you know where that is?

MN: It's up in the hills. They're trying to preserve that right now.

YH: Is that right?

MN: There's a, there's a structure there still and they're trying to get funds to preserve it, but I'm not sure if they're gonna be successful.

YH: Yeah. 'Cause I know when I saw him next he said after, after Tujunga Canyon -- before that he was taken to the jail, and he said there were a lot of other men there that he knew, were in that jail, and they were kidding with each other, "Now," they said, "Now what did you do?" He said, "Nothing. What did you do?" "Well you must've done something to land here." They were just kidding with each other. Then they, from that jail they went to Tujunga Canyon.

MN: And that's where you saw your father, but you were not able to communicate at all?

YH: No. It was too far.

<Begin Segment 10>

MN: So after your father was taken away, what did your mother have to do with the business?

YH: I think she just gave up the business. I don't know. I don't think she sold it, but she just gave, because she couldn't, she couldn't drive the car, and she couldn't get up early in the morning to go to the produce market and buy all those fruits and vegetables, take 'em back to the store. So I think she just gave it up. I don't think she, it was sold. I don't think she got any money for it because she thought it would be safer if we moved over to my grandmother's house in Long Beach.

MN: So you all, the entire family moved into your grandmother's house?

YH: Yes.

MN: How did you do the move?

YH: I think my uncles must've moved us, because my mother couldn't drive the car. I don't know what happened to the car.

MN: Now your uncles, by the time you folks went into camp, your uncles were, were they all in the army?

YH: Let's see, all of them were in the army except Taro, who was married, and Shimpachi, who was going to Macalester College because he was studying to be a minister. Let's see, I think the rest of them went into the army.

MN: Did you have any, what are your thoughts? You have these uncles in the army and then the government is now telling you you're gonna have to go into camp, did you have any feelings about that at that time you were still --

YH: No.

MN: What about school? What was going on with you at school?

YH: Well, in Santa Anita it wasn't compulsory, but if we wanted to we could go into the grandstand and we would sit in bunches in the grandstand and the teachers would rotate.

MN: Now this is when you went into Santa Anita Assembly Center.

YH: Yes.

MN: But before you went into Santa Anita and while you were still going to Washington Irving after Pearl Harbor, did the students and teachers harass you at all?

YH: No.

MN: Now, when the government announced that you have to go into camp, how did your family prepare?

YH: My mother made us a drawstring bag with my name on it, and we had a toothbrush and a plastic box that had a bar of soap in it and a washcloth and a towel and one change of underwear.

MN: Did you purchase any new clothes to go into camp?

YH: No.

MN: What happened to all the furniture and the piano?

YH: I don't know what happened to that.

MN: Did your grandmother own that house?

YH: She owned the house where we were living. It was on Lime Avenue.

MN: So do you think you left all your belongings at the Lime Avenue house?

YH: Maybe. I don't know because I know when we went to Des Moines, the government sent us some things from the barn which was behind my grandmother's house. That's where my grandfather stored a lot of his merchandise which he sold in the store on Pike. And a lot of their other friends stored their belongings in the barn too, so the barn was filled with a lot of people's belongings, and so that when the government sent us the belongings from the barn, a lot of it didn't belong to us. There were pots and pans that didn't belong to us, and the rug was all moth-eaten, so my mother just threw it away. And there was no furniture. There was, there was no tables or chairs. There was nothing. There were just those pots and pans and the rug, as far as I remember. So my mother went to the Salvation Army and bought some stuff.

MN: And this is in Des Moines, and we'll be getting there soon.

YH: Okay.

<Begin Segment 11>

MN: Now going back to Long Beach, now this is right before you're going into Santa Anita, do you remember what day you left to go to Santa Anita?

YH: We left on Easter Sunday morning.

MN: Did any of your friends, school friends, come to see you off?

YH: No, it was, my, I think my grandmother and my mother's friends took us in their car to the railroad station.

MN: And when you got to the railroad station, what is your memory of getting there and the soldiers being there? What are your memories of that?

YH: Well, I just remember getting on the train. I didn't see any soldiers. And then we were in Santa Anita.

MN: Was this your first time on a train?

YH: Yes.

MN: So for yourself, you're young, was it pretty adventurous?

YH: Yeah, it was.

MN: When you got to Santa Anita, what was your first impression?

YH: Let's see, well, there's a whole lot of horse stalls, and that's all I remember, all those horse stalls.

MN: Now your family, did you live in the horse stalls or in the parking lot?

YH: In the horse stall.

MN: What was that like, adjusting to living in a horse stall?

YH: Well, I didn't like it because there were all these stinky bugs, these great big black stinky bugs. They would come crawling out of the asphalt someplace and on the sides of the wall. And we'd just step on them and, because their exoskeleton was very hard. And I don't know why we called them stinky bugs, but that's what we called them.

MN: Did they smell when you killed it?

YH: No, I don't think so. I don't remember. We just called them stinky bugs. [Laughs]

MN: So what was the food situation like at Santa Anita?

YH: I do remember that a lot of times we'd have to get up in the middle of the night because it would be, we'd have the cramps, so we'd have to go to the bathroom. We weren't the only ones. The bathroom was filled with people who had the cramps.

MN: So you're eating a lot of tainted food, it sounds like.

YH: Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people were eating tainted food.

MN: So even in the middle of the night, was there a line to go to the latrine?

YH: Sometimes we'd have to sit down and wait.

MN: How about the mess hall, what was it like? Did you have to stand in long lines to get in?

YH: Yeah. Yeah.

MN: You were talking about how you made butter at Santa Anita?

YH: Yeah. We would take a bottle of milk and then we let it, let the cream come up to the top and throw the rest of the milk out and then shake it. And then by shaking it you could make butter, so we would put the bread on the, on the heater, the stove and then put the butter on the bread, 'cause we never got butter at the mess hall.

MN: People were very innovative, it sounds like.

YH: Yeah, I don't know who else did that, but that's what we did.

MN: Tell me what you folks did with these wheat squares you got.

YH: Oh yeah, those wheat squares, we used to, 'cause you had to really put a lot of sugar on the wheat squares in order to make them edible. We never ate those before in our lives, so we just saved all of them and then put them into one place, and everyone else did the same thing, so there was a mountain of wheat squares out there and they set them all on fire.

MN: And then earlier you were sharing with us about school at Santa Anita, how it was at the grandstand. How would you compare the schooling you got in Santa Anita to the one you were getting in Long Beach?

YH: 'Course, the one in Long Beach was much better, but the one in Santa Anita wasn't too bad because most of the teachers were university graduates or university students at that time, so they were very good teachers. They knew, they knew the subject.

MN: And these are the Nisei university...

YH: Right.

MN: And was it, am I correct in saying this was all voluntary to go to school?

YH: Yes. Yes.

MN: Do you remember what your mother was doing in Santa Anita?

YH: I think, I don't think she did anything.

<Begin Segment 12>

MN: Okay, so we were asking, were talking about your experience at Santa Anita. Do you remember what your grandparents were doing in Santa Anita?

YH: No, I don't, but since my grandfather had to amputate one leg, I don't think he came to Santa Anita with us. But my grandmother was there, but I don't know, I don't know what, where she was. I never saw her in Santa Anita.

MN: So she didn't live with your family?

YH: No. She must've been in another barrack.

MN: Your grandfather, what happened to your grandfather's leg?

YH: I don't know what happened to it, but I know that, that his doctor said that he could get it fixed in Japan cheaper than he could in the U.S., so that's why my grandfather went to Japan.

MN: This is later.

YH: Yeah. This was before World War II.

MN: Okay. And did he get it fixed?

YH: Yeah, and then it was amputated. And I think it was his right leg, amputated below the knee, 'cause he wore one crutch under his arm.

MN: So he never went into Santa Anita?

YH: No.

MN: Now, Yuriko, you grew up in a very predominantly Caucasian neighborhood. How did it feel to be surrounded by so many Japanese Americans?

YH: Well yeah, I didn't, I'd never seen so many Japanese Americans in my life.

MN: Did it make you feel uncomfortable or more comfortable?

YH: It didn't make me either. It wasn't uncomfortable or it wasn't more comfortable.

MN: Now, Santa Anita had talent shows. Did you ever dance in them?

YH: No.

MN: Why not?

YH: I don't know. I thought they were, I guess I thought they were all for people who sang. I don't think I was old enough.

MN: You mentioned there were curfews at Santa Anita. When did you have to get back into your stall?

YH: I think before, before daybreak. Yeah, before it got too dark, so probably at dusk.

MN: Did anybody check?

YH: Yeah. There was a check every night.

MN: There was a riot at Santa Anita. Were you near the riots when that broke out?

YH: No.

MN: So from Santa Anita which camp were you sent to?

YH: To Jerome, Arkansas.

<Begin Segment 13>

MN: What memories do you have of the train ride from Santa Anita to Jerome?

YH: Well, I thought it was a long train ride, and there were a lot of stops. And that's, and then all the shades were drawn at night. That's all I remember.

MN: Were there African American porters on the train?

YH: No.

MN: Where did you folks eat?

YH: I don't know where we ate, or if we ate.

MN: Did you get any motion sickness?

YH: No.

MN: And then I'm assuming you had to sleep sitting up.

YH: Yeah, 'cause there were no beds.

MN: So did some people sleep on the floor?

YH: I don't think so.

MN: Do you remember how many days it took?

YH: I think it was probably three days and two nights. I think it was about that.

MN: So once you got to Jerome what was your first impression of camp?

YH: Well, I just thought it was really big 'cause there was a lot of space between the train and the barracks.

MN: Now what was one of the first things you had to do when you got to Jerome?

YH: I had to go to the bathroom.

MN: And what happened to you?

YH: We had to stand in line 'cause a lot of people had to go to the bathroom, and the next thing I knew people were looking down on me, so I guess I must have fainted. And they told me to take it easy and they helped me to get on a bench, and I think I fainted because when I hit my head on the cement floor, that's when I woke up. And they just told me to take it easy, don't get up yet. But I was fine.

MN: Do you think you were, like, dehydrated? Is that why you fainted?

YH: I don't know why I fainted, 'cause that was the only time I fainted in my whole life.

MN: And you hit your head on the concrete. You didn't have any problems with that?

YH: No.

<Begin Segment 14>

MN: Now I want to ask you about school. What are your memories of attending school at Jerome?

YH: I know the school was in the middle of the center, and we lived on one edge of the center so it was a long walk for us to go to the middle. And Denson was in the, built in the middle of a swamp, so a lot of times my shoes or my boots would stick in the mud and I'd practically walk out of my boots, and that's how sticky the mud was. But other than that it was okay.

MN: What about the teachers at your school?

YH: Oh, the teachers, the teachers weren't as good as the one in Long Beach or Santa Anita. I don't know where they got those teachers, but one teacher smoked, not smoked, but chewed tobacco in class while he was teaching, and this tobacco juice would come out of the corner of his mouth and run down his cheek. That was really disgusting. There was another teacher who taught history, but end of her class she would give us another, tell us another chapter of Les Miserables.

MN: Were all your teachers hakujin?

YH: No, I had one teacher, Mr. Shimokubo, who was an algebra teacher and he was very good. He was an excellent teacher. And everyone wanted to take his class. There weren't enough chairs for students to sit in the classroom, so a lot of them were standing up.

MN: So were people wanting to take his class because they wanted to take algebra or because he was a really good teacher?

YH: He, I think it was both. They wanted to take algebra, and he was really a very good teacher.

MN: Now, you mentioned that your aunt also taught?

YH: Yeah, she taught art.

MN: Did you take any of her classes?

YH: No.

MN: Did you continue, like dance or piano lessons, in camp?

YH: No. I did take piano lessons, but the piano was at the school in the middle of the camp, and so we got a hold of a cardboard keyboard, so we would practice on the cardboard keyboard, which there's, you couldn't hear any music 'cause it was just a black and white cardboard keyboard.

MN: You were just putting your fingers on the cardboard.

YH: Yeah.

MN: So you had surgery in camp. What kind of surgery did you have?

YH: I had my tonsils removed. And 'cause my tonsils were inflamed 'cause I, that's why I couldn't swallow, and the doctor said I had to have my tonsils removed. So it was a local removal. I just sat in the chair and then he just snipped the tonsils out. And then I think I was choking on the blood and I coughed, and I coughed right onto his white gown. And then the best thing was I got to have some ice cream after that.

MN: I wanted to ask you something a little personal. You started menstruation in camp. Had you learned about menstruation before you got into camp?

YH: Yes. My mother had her friend Nellie Minnick, who had a daughter, Dorothy, my same age, and at that time she told us about menstruation.

MN: Is this something they also taught in school?

YH: Yes, but they only taught the anatomy, both the male and female anatomy.

[Interruption]

MN: And your mother, what was she doing in camp?

YH: In Jerome she was collecting all the sanitary napkins. They'd put 'em in a plastic bag in the bathroom, so she would collect all those, plastic bag.

MN: So that was her job?

YH: Yeah.

MN: Your grandfather, Fusakachi Kanow, died in camp.

YH: Yes.

MN: How did he pass away?

YH: Gee, I don't know. Fusakichi, yeah, I don't know how he, how he died.

MN: Do you know what happened to his remains?

YH: No.

<Begin Segment 15>

MN: Now, after a few months you were reunited with your father, was he able to see his, the grandfather before he passed away?

YH: No. I think he'd already passed away before my father was released from prison camp.

MN:: Now when your father returned, what did he tell you about where he was?

YH: Gee, I just remember that one day he was in our apartment in Jerome.

MN: What was that reunion like?

YH: Well, I was glad to see my father 'cause I didn't know where he was all that time.

MN: Did you hug him?

YH: No. And then... yeah.

MN: Now, years later you found out where your father was.

YH: Yeah.

MN: And he had shared with you about an incident on the way to Santa Fe.

YH: Yeah.

MN: Can you tell us what happened on the way to the Department of Justice camp?

YH: Yeah, he said they had to make a stop and get out and walk around, and he said it was, the soldiers told 'em it was time to get back on the train so he started to go back on the train. And then he thought there was another man who didn't understand English, and he was shot by the soldier. And I think my father knew who that man was, but I can't remember his name.

MN: Do you know if your father knew if he passed away or not, after this man got shot?

YH: Well, I think he did. He was killed.

MN: He wasn't just injured; he was killed.

YH: No, he was killed.

MN: And then you mentioned earlier about how you had found out why your father was taken away?

YH: Yeah.

MN: Why was he taken away?

YH: 'Cause he was the, he was the treasurer of the Japanese language school.

MN: Now, once your father was reunited with the family, what did your father start doing?

YH: He said that this, this wasn't a good place for all of us to be, so he immediately started to try to find out how we could get out of Denson.

<Begin Segment 16>

MN: And when did your family leave camp?

YH: We left camp on the Saturday, the Saturday before Easter.

MN: And this is 1943.

YH: Yeah.

MN: And you left camp, but you had to come back into camp the next, that day. What happened?

YH: Yeah. The train didn't stop at the Denson station because it was filled with servicemen who were returning home, so that's why the army truck had to bring us back to camp.

MN: And then you went out the next day, and then did the train pick you up?

YH: Yeah. It stopped and they picked us up. And I sat in the aisle 'cause there wasn't any, there weren't enough seats.

MN: Did anybody on the train harass you?

YH: No. 'Cause there were a lot of soldiers on the train, but no one harassed us.

MN: How did you feel about being surrounded by so many soldiers?

YH: I don't think I thought anything of it. I just knew they were soldiers because they had uniforms on. And they didn't pay any attention to us either.

MN: So from Denson where did you go?

YH: To Des Moines, Iowa.

MN: How, why did your family end up in Des Moines, Iowa?

YH: Because my father had a sponsor, and the American Friends Service Committee picked us up at the station in Des Moines.

MN: And where did you stay in Des Moines, Iowa?

YH: We stayed at their hostel, this, the Quaker hostel. And Ross Wilbur was the director there. He came to pick us up at the station.

MN: And what kind of job did your father find?

YH: Well, he, the Quaker house, they found my father a job and it was at the YWCA in Des Moines, Iowa, as a custodian.

MN: Did your mother work also?

YH: My mother found work as a, at a dry cleaning place. She took all the buttons off the clothing and then sewed them back on, and she also hemmed skirts and dresses, and she did things like that.

MN: And then you were talking earlier about when you were in Des Moines the government shipped some of your items from California?

YH: Yeah, from my grandmother's barn. And I said most of the stuff didn't belong to us, and one carpet was there, but it was so moth-eaten my mother threw it away. And most of the pots and pans didn't belong to us, so she went to the Salvation Army and bought some stuff there.

MN: What about your parents' instruments?

YH: I don't remember them being there, but we must have gotten them someplace because we have them now in Pacific Palisades. We have my father's shakuhachi and my mother's koto.

MN: So do you think that during this time the government shipped it to Des Moines, Iowa, or do you think you got them later?

YH: Must've been in Des Moines, Iowa, 'cause that's the only time I remember the government sending us anything.

MN: 'Cause the okoto is pretty big to ship.

YH: Yes, it is.

MN: But you remember having it in Des Moines?

YH: No.

MN: You don't. But you have it now somehow.

YH: Yeah. 'Cause my daughter Sylvia played the koto at her sister's wedding.

MN: Did you have the koto in Chicago?

YH: We must have because that's where my daughter was married.

<Begin Segment 17>

MN: Now, your schooling, which high school did you enroll in in Des Moines?

YH: North High School. First I went to Washington Irving Junior High School.

MN: That was in Long Beach, right?

YH: No, that was, that was also another middle school by the same name in Des Moines.

MN: And then you went to high school in Des Moines.

YH: Yeah, I graduated from the eighth grade in Washington Irving and then went to North High School in the ninth grade through the twelfth grade.

MN: How did the teachers and students treat you there?

YH: Very well.

MN: You had no problems?

YH: No. I know when I went to the country fair in, the county fair in Des Moines, they thought I was American Indian or Spanish. They never thought I was Japanese. They never thought I was Chinese. I don't think they ever saw a Japanese before.

MN: When people came up to you and asked you, did you advertise that you were Japanese?

YH: Well they never came up to ask me.

MN: They just assumed.

YH: Yeah. I don't know what they assumed, but they never came up to ask me.

MN: How did you know, then, people were thinking you were not of Japanese descent, or something else?

YH: Because they would, they would say so, like they'd whisper, but they'd be near enough so I could hear.

MN: After you graduated from North High School, what did you decide to do?

YH: I went to Drake University in Des Moines.

MN: Now, most females at that time really didn't go to college. How did your parents feel about you pursuing higher education?

YH: I think they, they didn't object 'cause I got a scholarship to go there.

MN: And what did you major in?

YH: I think it was English.

MN: Why did you pick English?

YH: 'Cause that was the, that was the language that I earned the most As in when I was going to high school, English or English literature.

MN: What was the ethnic makeup of Drake?

YH: I know there were a few Japanese American boys and a Korean boy, but I was the only Japanese American girl going there.

MN: And how did the other teachers and students treat you?

YH: Very well. 'Cause I used to work at the Drake University periodicals room.

MN: And no one ever gave you any problems. What were you planning to do with your English major?

YH: Gee, I really don't know.

MN: The war ended while you were living in Des Moines. How did you hear about the end of the war?

YH: I think it was one day when I was going to the Iowa Methodist Hospital, because that hospital was only a few blocks from where we lived and I used to take meals for people who came out, who came into the hospital for special diets. Some may have been diabetic, some may have recently had an operation, and they all needed special diets. And the diet nurse would weigh everything out and put them on a tray, so I would always have to know what person, that tray went to that person in the dining room. It was a small dining room, and so I would take the trays into the dining room.

MN: So were you there when the announcement was put out?

YH: Yes.

MN: How did you feel when you heard the war was over?

YH: I was very happy that the war was over.

MN: Was there any reaction in the hospital?

YH: No.

MN: Now once the war ended, why didn't your family return to California?

YH: Gee, I don't know why we didn't return to California. I think that we had roots in Des Moines, so that's why my father decided we should just stay there in Des Moines.

MN: So from what year to what year were your family in Des Moines?

YH: Let's see, from the time we left Denson, gee, that was '42?

MN: '43.

YH: '43. '43 to '49.

<Begin Segment 18>

MN: Now why did you move, okay, 1949, why did you move from Des Moines to Chicago?

YH: 'Cause my father thought there weren't, there were no Japanese American males in Des Moines, and he wanted the four girls to get married to Japanese American males.

MN: Was it difficult to find housing in Chicago?

YH: Yes. But, 'cause I would look in the want ads every day when I was there, 'cause my father was there before I was and he had one room above a saloon on the first floor. The saloon was on the first floor, or bar, and then the second floor were all apartments. And the subway was below the saloon. And so I'd look in the want ads every day for an apartment, and then every day I'd go out on the bus, the train, and I go west because that's where most of the apartments were. 'Cause if you got too close to Lake Michigan the rents are really high, and we couldn't afford that.

MN: But eventually you found appropriate housing, but you didn't live with your family. What happened?

YH: Oh yes, my, I had a friend who was living in Hyde Park and she was moving to the YWCA apartment a few blocks away, so she wanted someone to replace me. And so I replaced her in Hyde Park in this big mansion that was owned by Dr. and Mrs. Chauncey Carter Maher, and they had one son.

MN: So were you like a live-in?

YH: Yes.

MN: So you worked for room and board.

YH: Yes, and that, but I also had a job outside the house.

MN: Now at this time were you attending church?

YH: Yes.

MN: Which church were you attending?

YH: The First Baptist Church in Chicago.

MN: Can you tell us who you met at this church?

YH: Yes, I met William at that church, but first I met Tom Tajiri and he said that there was a fellow that he'd like to introduce me to, and that was William.

MN: What was it about William that attracted you to him?

YH: Well, he was, he was sort of a shy person and he was very nice. And he used to, he used to, I used to sit on the handlebars of his bicycle and we'd go over, go all over on the bicycle like that.

MN: That's kind of funny because you're on the bicycle and then when your father was courting your mother, he'd come in a motorcycle.

YH: Right.

MN: So it's almost the same. Now how often did you see William at this time?

YH: Probably about once a week, on the weekend. 'Cause he lived southeast and I lived northwest, so when he came by train he had to transfer twice.

MN: So it was a long journey for him.

YH: Yeah.

MN: But he was very committed, it sounds like.

YH: Yeah.

MN: How long were you two courting before you got married?

YH: Well, I'd say less than a year.

MN: How did William propose to you?

YH: He didn't propose at all. He, one day he came, he came with a paper bag and in the paper bag there was a little box. I opened the box and that was my, my ring was in that box, this ring right here. And it, I said, "I like it." I put it on and it just fit. So I've had it for over sixty years.

MN: Were you surprised to find the ring in there?

YH: No, 'cause I saw the box. I knew it was a ring.

MN: So you were just waiting.

YH: I wasn't waiting. I didn't expect it, 'cause he got it at the Celini shop in Evanston, (Illinois).

<Begin Segment 19>

MN: When did you folks get married?

YH: March the 17th, 1951. That's St. Patrick's Day.

MN: What was your wedding dress like? Did your mother make it for you?

YH: I made that wedding dress. It was made out of French silk satin, and it had long sleeves, a boatneck line, and the sleeves had these little buttons all the way up to the elbow. And then it had a dipping hem, you know, the knee, and it dipped down.

MN: How long did it take you to make that?

YH: Oh gee, I don't remember how long it took. Maybe about a month? I don't know. The hardest part was to get those buttons on the sleeves.

MN: Do you still have that wedding dress?

YH: No.

MN: What happened to it?

YH: I don't know. 'Cause in one of the apartments that we lived there was a fire, so it might've gotten burned in that fire.

MN: Now, before you got married to William, did you have any idea he'd turn out to be this staunch civil rights advocate?

YH: No.

MN: Which church did you folks get married in?

YH: The First Baptist Church in Chicago.

MN: Did Tom Tajiri, was he the best man?

YH: No, it was Akira Hirami. Well, he wasn't the best man, but he came in just before the ceremony was to begin and then William said, "You're gonna be my best man." [Laughs] Yeah. He lives in Colorado now.

MN: Where did you folks honeymoon?

YH: New Orleans, Louisiana.

MN: Can you share with us how, as newlyweds, how you experienced the segregation in New Orleans?

YH: Yeah, we got on the train, the public train to go someplace, and when we got on the train we could see that the blacks were in the back of the train and the whites were in the front of the train, and so we stood up in the middle of the train. And after that if we wanted to have transportation we walked or took the cab. We could see the water fountain for blacks, the water fountain for whites. Everything was segregated there. That was really a jolt.

MN: So when, when you saw, this which section did you go to? Like in, for water fountains, did you go to the whites'?

YH: No, we didn't, we didn't have any water. We didn't go to any of the fountains. And then I, we weren't segregated on the waterfront because they had coffee and donuts freshly made and a lot of people were there early in the morning having coffee and donuts. And I don't remember seeing any blacks there. And then when we went to the restaurants I don't remember seeing any blacks in the restaurants. I think it was just too expensive for blacks to go to the restaurants.

MN: Who picked New Orleans for your honeymoon?

YH: I think William did.

MN: For, do you know why he picked New Orleans?

YH: [Shakes head] 'Cause I, probably it was the cheapest way to go, because we weren't making much money, and William had just graduated from the University of Chicago and he was working in the parts department of a sports car dealer. And I think I was working for the PTA, so I wasn't making much money. So you could just get on the IC and go to New Orleans and that didn't cost very much money. And this is right after the Mardi Gras, so the town was pretty empty 'cause all the revelers had gone home.

MN: So you did all the touristy things like going to the French Quarter?

YH: Yeah.

MN: What memories do you have of...

YH: Then went to Lake Pontchartrain, and we went to, I think it was called the White House, but it was a store, a department store, I think it was French. It wasn't the White House, it was something like the Blanca something or other. And I bought a fancy scarf there.

<Begin Segment 20>

MN: Now, after you got married and you folks settled in Chicago, was church a big part of your life?

YH: Yes.

MN: Which, were you still with the First Baptist?

YH: No, we went to the Methodist church, the First Methodist Church, and, gee, I don't remember how we made that transfer, but William and I were very active in the Methodist church. And William was a delegate from our church to the annual conference every year.

MN: Was this a Japanese American church?

YH: Most of the people were Japanese Americans. The local church was, but the rest of the church was mostly Caucasian.

MN: Why did you folks decide to join this congregation?

YH: I think it was because when I, my sister died, the pastor, Reverend Victor Fujio, presided at my sister's memorial service.

MN: Your sister passed away very young.

YH: Yes.

MN: What happened?

YH: She died as a result of a, of an automobile accident. She lived in Wisconsin, and she was a teacher and her husband was a doctor, and so they were going, her husband was going to minister to two small towns in Wisconsin with another physician, and they came home for Christmas vacation and they were returning back so that the other physician could take New Year's Day off. And her husband was driving too fast for the conditions of the road, 'cause it was very slippery, and he misjudged going past a truck full of steel girders and so he hit that truck on the side where my sister was sitting, and so they both had to be taken to the hospital and my sister died before they even got there, to the hospital. And it was touch and go for her husband for a long time because the nurses didn't tell him that my sister had died and... yeah.

MN: Thank you for sharing that.

YH: Yeah.

MN: You mentioned also that you had enrolled in tea ceremony in Chicago?

YH: Yes.

MN: What prompted you to enroll in tea ceremony?

YH: Well, it was being given at the, at the Resettlers office, so I thought maybe I'd like to try that. But I had to stop because you had to sit on your knees and my legs would get numb so I couldn't stand up, so I had to stop taking tea ceremony lessons.

<Begin Segment 21>

MN: Now I'm gonna move forward a little and go to the '60s and the '70s when William started to get very active in the antiwar protest and the civil rights rally as part of the United Methodist Church.

YH: Yes.

MN: Did you ever get worried about his safety?

YH: No.

MN: You and William were also active in the Tokyo Rose, Iva Toguri campaign?

YH: Yes.

MN: How close did you get to her family?

YH: Well, I'd say we were pretty close. 'Cause we had a celebration in Evanston and, for her, because July the fourth was her birthday and we celebrated her birthday in Evanston and a lot of people came out for that. And then the most astonishing thing was that one of the men who came up on the stage confessed that he was one of the ones who informed on Iva Toguri, and he was sobbing, and he asked her if she would forgive him. That was on his conscience for a long time, but he decided to pick that day, in front of all of us. It was very moving.

MN: How did Iva Toguri answer that?

YH: Oh gee, I don't remember.

MN: Did your folks live very close to each other?

YH: No. No, I would go there every time about Christmas time, and I'd select gifts from her shop to give to people.

MN: What kind of person was she?

YH: Well, she was a no nonsense person, and she was a biologist. And, 'cause I know she said her father was on his deathbed and the government wanted some money from him, some money that he may have owed on taxes or something from way back, and on his deathbed the government was asking for that.

MN: Was she bitter towards the U.S. government?

YH: I don't know.

MN: You never got that sense from her?

YH: No, but she, I do know she was a no-nonsense person.

<Begin Segment 22>

MN: Okay, let's start talking about NCJAR. When talks of redress first started to surface on a national level, what did you think about that?

YH: I don't know. I don't think I had any thoughts about that.

MN: Did you think it was something that was possible?

YH: Well, I really didn't think very deeply about that.

MN: What did you think when William started to get involved with the Seattle JACL in trying to get redress?

YH: I thought it was okay.

MN: But you had no feelings here or there, okay. Now how did you and William decide to start the National Council for Japanese American Redress?

YH: I think it was William's decision.

MN: How did you get a board together and get all that organized?

YH: Gee, I don't remember. I think, oh, I think it was Nelson Kitsuse. He wanted to, he was the one who was pushing William for redress and he wanted to get people involved in redress, so that's why he was pushing William to get a board together.

MN: So Nelson Kitsuse, who were the other core people in NCJAR?

YH: It was Nelson and Taka Kitsuse, Bob and Yaeye Imon, Sam and Harue Ozaki, William and Yuriko Hohri, Sam Outlaw, Eddie and Doris Sato, (and Winnifred McGill).

MN: Can you share a little bit about Sam Outlaw?

YH: Sam Outlaw was a black person, and he and (Winnifred McGill) lived in a house with other people, and they shared all their meals. And he was an anti-Apartheid person, (Sam and Winnifred McGill), would picket this South African embassy in Chicago.

MN: Now how often did the NCJAR board meet?

YH: It met every month on the first Monday of the month.

MN: And when you started NCJAR, what sort of expectations did you have, or did you have any expectations?

YH: Well, we had hired a lawyer in Washington, D.C., and we knew we had to raise money to pay the lawyers to carry our case. And before that we had to find all the named plaintiffs who represented, one individual would represent a lot of individuals, like a minister, a Buddhist minister would represent a lot of people in camp who were Buddhist, and things like that.

MN: So how did you come up with the initial NCJAR mailing list?

YH: We, well, William and I sent people our Christmas card list. I don't know what the other people did on the board, but that's what we did.

[Interruption]

MN: So from your Christmas mailing list how big did the mailing list expand to?

YH: I think three thousand five hundred. I think a little less. Something like that, between three thousand and three thousand five hundred.

MN: And then you mentioned that you hired a lawyer in Washington, D.C., so what kind of fundraisers did you hold and how did you get funds?

YH: Well, we asked for ronins, and ronins would contribute a thousand dollars, and we had a lot of ronins and they were on our, the side of our letterhead. And then every month we sent out a newsletter and we sent it out first class mail, and -- to let them, let our contributors know what we were doing -- and every month they would have things that they might want to buy, like T-shirts and books and pamphlets, and then we would hold fundraisers in Chicago too. And at those fundraisers we would invite our lawyers to come, and they could update all the people who came to our fundraiser on what the, where the lawsuit was. And then in the newsletter we'd always let our contributors know what the money was for and how much money we needed, and so they always knew we were telling the truth and the money would be contributed. And we always sent thank you notes to all the people who contributed every month.

MN: Are you the one that sent out the thank you notes?

YH: No. Eddie Sato sent out the thank you notes, 'cause I always sent him a carbon copy of all the people who had contributed.

MN: Yeah, share with us your role in -- well, first of all, where did the donation checks go?

YH: The, this was a program of the United Methodist Church and so the checks all went into a fund, a redress legal fund of the United Methodist Church, so that's where I took all the checks and it went into their fund.

MN: So you got all the checks and then you typed up a list of the people, is that what you did?

YH: Yeah. And then I took all the checks to the United Methodist office at 77 West Washington Street in Chicago. That was downtown.

MN: And then the newsletter, what role did everybody have in getting that newsletter out?

YH: I typed the newsletter and then copies were made of it, and we went to the church Saturday morning from about nine to one o'clock and we assembled the newsletter, put the stamp on and put the mailing label on and took 'em to the post office.

MN: So you yourself, you typed out that newsletter. How long did it take you to type that out, 'cause this is before computers?

YH: Yeah.

MN: Did it take you, like a whole week to type it out?

YH: No. No. Maybe three hours. Took us longer to put together, collate it, fold it, put the label on and put the stamp on.

MN: And you did that every month?

YH: Yeah.

MN: And during the ten years that NCJAR was in existence did you have any problems with the donation checks?

YH: No, there was just one and that came from a man who had moved from one city to another in California, and so I sent his check back to him and told him that the check couldn't be endorsed and so he sent another check immediately. So we had, there's no checks that bounced. It's amazing, isn't it?

MN: In ten years. Now, William split with the JACL very early on to form NCJAR, and JACL didn't have a lot of nice things to say about him. What did you think about that?

YH: Well, I think that the JACL didn't understand that our government was divided into three parts, the legislative, the judicial, and the executive branch, and that we were going after redress through the judicial branch. They were going through it through the legislative branch. I don't think they understood this. They thought we were competing with them, but it was, we were going through a different branch of the government.

<Begin Segment 23>

MN: Now, Jack and Aiko Herzig provided NCJAR with a lot of documents from the National Archives.

YH: Yeah.

MN: Do you remember how you met them?

YH: Gee, I don't know how we met them.

MN: It's been a long time.

YH: Yeah, because Aiko could probably tell you, but I don't know how we met them, 'cause I do know that Aiko wanted a face to face appraisal of William to see if he was on the up and up.

TI: I think your arm's in the way of the microphone.

YH: Oh, sorry. And that's what I thought. She thought William was okay, that he was, you know, he was the real thing, so I think she made up her mind that she was going to work with him. You could ask her about this.

MN: And you were living in Chicago while your attorneys were in Washington, D.C. How often did you meet them?

YH: At least once every year. It may have been more at the beginning, maybe at the end.

MN: So when you went to go visit your attorneys in D.C., did it come out of the NCJAR fund or out of your own personal pocket?

YH: Well, most of the time when we went to D.C. we stayed with Aiko and Jack at their apartment.

MN: Can you share with us what --

Off camera: Did you drive?

YH: Yeah, we drove.

MN: Share with us your drive to Washington, D.C.

YH: Oh gosh, William would always, would drive to Washington, D.C., but we would make one stop in Pennsylvania overnight.

MN: How early did you start for this trip?

YH: We would start early in the morning, six o'clock, seven o'clock, to get to Pennsylvania by early in the afternoon or late in the afternoon, depending upon gassing up and eating meals along the way.

MN: And then you'd get to D.C. in the evening?

YH: Probably late in the afternoon, if we stopped in Pennsylvania. And when we were in Pennsylvania Aiko always called us 'cause William probably told her we would probably be there at such and such a time, and so when we get to our motel she would always call us. Then when we got to D.C. Aiko and Jack would be waiting for us outdoors.

MN: Then, I guess, the next day you'd meet with the attorneys. Can you share with us a little bit about Ellen Godbey Carson, your attorney?

YH: Oh yes, she was a brilliant attorney, a young attorney, and she was working for the civil rights division and she knew there wasn't going to be very much work for her, because I think it went into the Reagan administration and they're just, they weren't particularly for civil rights. So she was hired by Landis, Cohen, Singman, and Rauh to research NCJAR's lawsuit, and I think she was a graduate of Yale or Harvard, I don't remember which, but she graduated with high honors. And she did a lot of work because sometimes she would be working on Sunday in Boston looking something up, so it wasn't just a nine to five job for her.

MN: Did she come and visit you folks in Chicago?

YH: Yes. She came often to explain the lawsuit and to keep us up to date on what was going on. And she also would go to San Francisco, where we would go and meet with the JACL there and explain the suit to them. And I remember that NCRR had a question and they were asking the question of the JACL representative who was there. He didn't know how to answer the question, so there was this long silence and then Ellen, she knew all about the legislation that was going on, so she not only knew about our case but she knew everything that was going on in the legislation. Their own people didn't know, at that meeting anyway.

MN: You know, this ten-year lawsuit that NCJAR was involved with would have taken a lot of your family time and money. Did you ever tell William to stop pursuing this lawsuit?

YH: No.

MN: Why not?

YH: 'Cause every time the documents came out, you knew how the government had, what's the word, had, not tricked us but didn't tell the truth about what had happened at that time. And this is what the documents revealed, so we were going to pursue this case until the end, whatever that end was.

MN: How about anybody on the NCJAR board? Did anybody there say, "Let's stop this"?

YH: Oh, no. Everyone was right on. No one was about to stop it at any time. I think some of the board was angrier than I was. And there were JACL members on the board.

MN: Now, this lawsuit, the lower court was saying the statute of limitation had expired and the appeals court overturned that.

YH: Yeah.

MN: Then the government appealed that appeals court decision and they were, they cited another procedural argument that the cause had been heard in the wrong appeals court. And so there were all these technical things that had nothing to do with constitutional issues.

YH: Right.

MN: When all this was going on how did you, what did you think about what was going on?

YH: Well, that matter had to be cleared up before we could proceed, even though we knew we were in the right court. Because one of the attorneys or judges had opened up his mouth and it was on the record, so that delayed us for another year. And more money.

MN: So did you feel like the government was just stalling?

YH: No, uh-uh. No, I don't think the government was stalling.

MN: So when this final verdict to dismiss the case came down, when did it come down and how did you feel?

YH: It came down, I think July, no, August, no... it's terrible. It came down on October the thirty-first, Halloween day. And William sent the justices a letter and he said, "Instead of a treat you gave us a trick." We didn't get any response from that letter.

MN: How did you feel about the case when it got dismissed? Were you angry, or --

YH: No. I was disappointed, but I wasn't angry, and I knew that they, the lawyers, the law firm had done its very best and this is the way it was going to end.

<Begin Segment 24>

MN: So after the case was dismissed, what did NCJAR do with all the leftover money and the books?

YH: The board decided to give the money to AFSC, the American Friends Service Committee, and the books went to the library in San Francisco. I think there's a library of books there in San Francisco, but I don't know the name of it, but I think that's where all the books went.

MN: Was it a difficult decision to disband after ten years?

YH: No, I don't think so, because I think that the board felt that they were getting pretty tired, and that the decision had been made by the Supreme Court so that there's no reason for us to continue.

MN: Did you feel that you should get involved with the redress movement going through Congress?

YH: No, because by then Congress had passed the law to give twenty thousand dollars to each individual who was in camp.

MN: Well, a lot of people think the NCJAR lawsuit influenced Congress to pass the redress bill.

YH: Yes.

MN: What are your thoughts on that?

YH: I think so, 'cause Barney Frank said that, Barney Frank said that that was so, that if it hadn't been for the lawsuit, Congress wouldn't have passed that law for twenty thousand dollars.

MN: So Congressman Barney Frank personally said that to you?

YH: Not to me, but I think it was in a newspaper. He was quoted as saying that. 'Cause twenty thousand is a lot less than two hundred thousand, which, if we had won, the court would have given each individual.

MN: So do you think the government got off easy, at twenty thousand?

YH: Well, I think so, but that's the way the government decided to give each of the individuals who was in camp and was alive at that time, 'cause there were a lot of people who died during those years who had been in camp.

MN: So when this redress bill did pass, how did you feel about that?

YH: We felt that it's better to have one bird in hand than two birds in the bush.

MN: When you got your redress check, what did you do with the money?

YH: I spent the money to pay off our mortgage.

MN: What did William do with his money?

YH: William spent his money on, bought a new car. He, at the time he thought he could buy a new car and a new garage, but by the time he got his check there was only enough money to buy a car.

MN: So the NCJAR papers were donated to the Japanese American National Museum. How did that come about?

YH: He was asked if he would donate his papers there, and so he sent them I don't know how many cardboard boxes of material, at least a dozen, I'd say.

MN: Okay, Yuriko, I have asked all my questions. Is there something else you want to add on to this that I didn't ask?

YH: No.

MN: We covered all the bases?

YH: I think so.