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TI: Now, when you say the Japanese were accepted like the whites, was there kind of a hierarchy, though, in Ketchikan in terms of, class is probably too strong of a word, but like the, the whites and Japanese perhaps were more like landowners and the, I mean, was there kind of that kind of hierarchy in Ketchikan?

RO: Well, the ones that were treated, the Native Americans, the ones that were treated with a little more respect were the people from Annette Island. They were the Tsimshian Tribe, and a lot of them had their own boats and things, so, well, they had money too. Not a lot, but... the other tribe, the Tlingits in Saxman, if you go to Ketchikan you'll probably be able to take a little tour. It's about three miles out the road from Ketchikan and has Native woodcarvers and stuff.

TI: When I think back, I have been in Ketchikan.

RO: You have?

TI: It's, it has, isn't there a park with, like, lots of totem poles?

RO: That's Saxman. I'm sure.

TI: Yeah, when you mentioned that all of a sudden it clicked, because I, this was probably fifteen years ago. I just took the public ferries and they stopped at Ketchikan, so I remember we stopped there and we saw some things.

RO: Yeah.

TI: Okay. But going back to this, this hierarchy, so you start talking about the Native populations and you said there was one group that was from one tribe that was perhaps treated better than the, any of the other Natives?

RO: I feel that, when I think about it I think about the Tsimshians from Annette Island. They were sort of a little bit higher class. They had more things. And Tlingits from Saxman, they, they didn't have too much. See, the Tsimshians, that's where Father Duncan brought these people from Metlakatla in British Columbia. They migrated up there and he started a church.

TI: Okay, so initially they were Native Canadian then, or, or...

RO: No -- (yes), to start with they were Native Canadians, right.

TI: And then they moved up to Alaska. Okay. Earlier, can't remember if it was on camera or before, you mentioned how, when you say whites, there was a large Norwegian...

RO: Norwegians, Swedish, Scandinavians.

TI: Scandinavians. Scandinavian. So why is that? Why were there so many Scandinavians in Ketchikan?

RO: I imagine it's because of the fisheries. A lot of 'em had boats and such.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.