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TI: So let's go back to when you first came to Chicago because you were still needing to go to school at this time.

RH: Yes.

TI: So tell me about what school was like in Chicago for you.

RH: Well, at that time it got kind of bad for me because I kind of gave up on education because I've heard stories about guys getting lousy jobs even though they were college educated. And so I just gave up on it and says, nah, but I just did what I felt like doing and that was play basketball over there and I played a little football that one year. But I liked mechanical drawing, and I got straight A's in that but I never pursued that end of it either. But I was good with my hands, my dad taught me a lot about how to do steam fitting work and then he says, "Whenever the tradesmen come over to work, I want you over there and watch him and learn what they're doing and so that you can do it later." And that's what I did and so when I left my dad's business, I was a maintenance engineer and I went to work for different companies and I excelled over there. Finally, I got in with some electricians and I got into the trades and that's what I ended up doing.

TI: So did you go to school or how did you get licensed to do all these activities?

RH: I just learned on the job.

TI: And then at some point do you need to get a license or do you just join the union and that's how you get the jobs?

RH: Well, yeah, I got the jobs because I knew electrical work and I did a lot of union jobs, not being in the union. And I got permits through other contractors and used their name and did the work, but I had to pay them for the permits.

TI: And you did this kind of through your whole career?

RH: I did a lot work that way but whenever the tradesman work petered out and they laid me off, then I did my own work on the side and then when the work picked up again I'd go back and work for the contractors.

TI: Okay, so the contractors knew about you and so whenever they had work they would --

RH: No, they didn't know about what I was doing.

TI: Okay.

RH: That's a hush hush kind of thing.

TI: So who would hire you then?

RH: Big contractors.

TI: But it was kind of underneath the table.

RH: Well, no, it was when they didn't have enough union electricians to do the work, they would pick up what they call the permit workers. Okay, so it was a work that I would help the electricians do, but after a while I could do their work so they kept me on as long as they could. And then when the work petered out and you had to go because the union people didn't have enough work, then I would be laid off. I would look for that kind of time too because I had a lot of side work lined up.

TI: Now did you ever consider knowing that you already had the skills, just go through school just to get accredited and get the license?

RH: Well, yeah, but you know, there's too much BS involved in all this. Chicago is one of those kind of places, payoff, you got to pay off somebody so it's no use to go out and... my time was, I was too old already, forties and fifties, that's getting too old. So you have to grin and bear it and go do the work and do the work on the side, which I did.

TI: I'm curious, in the trades, did you ever face discrimination by being Japanese?

RH: Oh, yeah, you face that every day. I mean, because of my race, I figure that they never called me up to give me a chance to pass the exam so that I could get in there to work with the rest of the guys, get my card. I see that all the time.

TI: Even though you were qualified, you had all the skills and knowledge.

RH: They said if you worked two thousand hours in the trades you could take the test and then if you passed the test you can be a card carrying electrician. And I'd call them and I'd call them and I says, "I want to take the test," said, "We're not giving the test." Following year, the same thing and then when they had a lot of problems with the blacks, those guys took the test so I said, "I want to take the test." And they said, "We're not giving the test." I says, "You're giving to the black guys." "No, that's already over," you know, stuff like that. Who are they crappin', you know?

TI: Did they ever directly though make reference to you being Japanese?

RH: No, never.

TI: So it's all kind of just behind your back and just making it hard for you.

RH: Yeah, and then one time I was working for this company and I says, "You know this job that we're doing right now, you need a permit." Says, "We got permit." I said, "But then it's supposed to be 134 guys working on this job." "Aw, nah, it's okay," and sure enough, the BA comes walking in. And I knew the BA but he didn't remember me, but anyway, he says, "You got to have 134 men working this job, you got to have a 134 license to do this job." And so okay, what do I have to do? He says, "Well, you can join the union, do this..." and says, okay, so my boss says, "Okay, I can take two guys with me, Mike and you if you want to." I said, "Yeah, I'll go." So we went in front of the board, the electrical board, and I saw all these guys, big shots over there and we talked and he says, okay, so now we got a card, Mike and myself got a card, my boss has got a card. Then I quit working for them and I worked for another company, and lo and behold, the BA that was in that office at the time I was interviewed was the BA that came to the job and he says, "Oh, working here now, huh?" And I says, "How do you know me?" He says, "You came in with the two cops." They were policemen, see. And they were doing electrical work on the side also. I says, "Oh, yeah, I remember you now," and so we got to talking a little bit. But you know, that's how they work, that's how... if you don't pay off you don't get in and these guys had to pay off to get in and for me to get the card and all that stuff. Anyway, Chicago is a lot of BS like that.

TI: And so it sounds like in some ways you're a little bit like your father. When I think about this story you told about the boiler inspector, you know he just didn't want to get into that game of paying off, especially year after year so he didn't do this. Sounds like you have a similar streak in you.

RH: Well, yeah, I learned from my dad that part of it too. There's a few things I can say about 'em but I don't want to say too much.

TI: Okay, that's fine.

<End Segment 15> - Copyright © 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.